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Messages - Nao
4561
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release...
« on August 28th, 2012, 04:31 PM »
Quote from b4pjoe on August 26th, 2012, 09:11 PM
I know it had been mentioned of maybe an Aug. 25th release date for the Alpha version of Wedge. Did it happen and I am just missing it or is it going to be later?
You didn't miss anything...
I said it was my target date. i.e. the date after which I decided to 'freeze' the code and only focus on making an alpha release viable. (Actually, I froze the codebase a couple of weeks ago already.)
You have no idea the amount of work it requires just to have something usable for everyone...

And frankly -- I've been busy IRL. Saw my little sister for the first time in over 2 years, met my niece for the first time, was ill at some point, went to the movies (I really, really needed to see TDKR that badly, sorry for taking some time off from time to time!), and having difficulties in other areas that I won't expand on.

So, yeah, Wedge has been in the works for over 2 years now, and I'd REALLY like for a version to be out for testing.
My current schedule is:
- finish the stuff I'm still working on (it'll probably take about a week, given that I've done about 2 thirds of the work so far, in the last couple of weeks),
- package the release, publish it somewhere on the private boards,
- wait for at least 5-6 people to start testing it, wait about a week, fix any bugs that have been reported,
- and release the alpha in public. So... That should hopefully happen in September. With a personal goal to release the stable version in late 2012 (but again, it's a personal goal -- not an official schedule. Our official schedule is "When it's done", as we said about a hundred times already.)

With a huge bold red warning saying that you shan't use it in production -- only as a test. I wouldn't even recommend to create plugins or skins with it -- I don't think Pete is finished with the plugin code, and I'm reserving the right to break the skin code because it has a couple of inconsistencies and might be a bit convoluted for proper use in some areas.
4562
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release...
« on August 28th, 2012, 04:24 PM »
I don't see the point of using youtube-nocookie, really..? Aren't you being a bit paranoid? What's in that cookie anyway?

It's either iframe or flash, not both. Although I did keep the flash version in a comment and explained how to reset it... And you could just as well include a new sitelist entry with the flash version, so that you could choose from the admin area, but that would imply you can't have both enabled at the same time obviously, and that would be confusing to do by default.
4563
Features: BBCode / Re: Spoiler tag
« on August 27th, 2012, 09:48 AM »
I guess so, yes... For them not to load, you'd have to use JavaScript (it's called a 'lazy load' technique, you can google it.)
Perhaps it depends on the browser, though (it's not hard to calculate the visibility of an image and determine whether to suspend loading. Well, if it can be done in JavaScript, it can be done in the browser itself too ;)). But I would expect the pictures to load.
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 09:46 AM

Oh, BTW quite obviously the description feature was added in the meantime! (cf. previous posts :P)
4564
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 27th, 2012, 09:40 AM »
For those who have issues with the sidebar position -- I modified Wine and Warm to use the same as the others.
Total time taken: 2 seconds per file :P (changing 'left' to 'right' in the options file.)
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Quote from Nao on August 27th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Total time taken: 2 seconds per file :P (changing 'left' to 'right' in the options file.)
Oh BTW I quickly changed it back to have the sidebar on the left and the avatar box on the left (instead of on the right), just in case what bothered you guys wasn't the sidebar position, but instead the avatar position (I'm aware that it can be disturbing, cf. phpBB3.)
4565
The Pub / Re : Re: More thoughts on SMF 2.1
« on August 27th, 2012, 09:28 AM »
That logo is too busy for my taste :P

Okay, I've uploaded the latest concept to the homepage and, to my own surprise, it seems to work well... (I'm using the Wine skin, though. Maybe it helps.)
4566
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 11:54 PM »
I'll resume work on this topic tomorrow, ah ah...
Quote from spoogs on August 26th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Honestly wish I could explain. The overall look and feel of the theme just does it for me. I never thought I'd be a fan of the sidebar on the right but it seems right at home. I can safely say however it's not just a font thing, the colours compliment each other nicely as well.
Even if the paddings and margins are awfully done?
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Hmmmm did the Skin Selector always take us to http://wedge.org/do/skin/
I seem to remember it just changing skins on the fly keeping us we were, meaning if I'm viewing a topic and changed skins I would still be viewing that topic.
Yeah, sorry, a wrong manipulation on my side -- I overwrote a file with a version that wasn't my custom one.
See, until now the skin selector would add a variable at the end of the URL and redirect to that. I didn't like it for two reasons: (1) the variable had 'theme' in it, which is basically a 'temporary' setting for the current session, so it could generate situations where you get two different skins on two different browsers at the same time, (2) well, it adds too much code to the HTML... Even if it's at the end, which is fine usually, it's still extra bandwidth. So I chose a solution that will probably not work for everyone (if your antivirus removes your referer information, you'll be redirected to the skin selector instead of the current page), and may also not work correctly (it's possible that you'll be redirected to a page reloaded from cache, making it impossible to see the new skin without hitting F5.) But in all honesty, my Opera is set to ALWAYS load from cache, and yet the feature works for me every time.

Tell me if you have any problems with it... (I need to commit these changes.)

PS: just realized -- first at 11.111 posts! 8-)
4567
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 11:47 PM »
Quote from Arantor on August 24th, 2012, 11:48 PM
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I don't like the sidemenu on the left so those skins are a no go for me.
It's actually mostly configurable at the skin level with little real work
I've even considered adding a menu option (like Select Skin) to allow you to choose a fixed sidebar position (left/right/bottom), but it got too complicated UI wise, I think. Noisen.com used that menu at some point too -- I just checked and I no longer show it either.

The left-side sidebars are never going to be default, either. They're for people who like them! But I have to say, since I always run Wedge in 1024px wide or something (I use the remaining horizontal space for my browser tab list), I never see any sidebars. Well, I see them at the bottom, and it's just plain okay that way.
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I was hoping for people to understand that there's only so much that two people can do in their spare time when life intervenes. I was also hoping that people wouldn't just expect miracles from us and that instead of expecting it to be wonderful, might actually be prepared to put some effort in down the line, but I guess no-one's going to be happy today.
I guess it can always be said that way... ;) And it's shorter than my long list of comparisons :P

What do you mean by 'spare time', by the way? What is 'spare time'? I don't understand that word. And I've looked it up in a dictionary. Doesn't ring a bell... Is my English that rusty? Oh, and while I'm at it, I also heard about 'paid job' at some point... Does anyone know what it means?
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Uh, no. Let's just say that Bloc and us don't get on very well at all. You should read the debate. It would be informative.
I find you a bit tense with him... I think you should just leave the topic aside when there's something that's going to upset you. Guess what, that's what I did for the last couple of days :P
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1. How much screaming and carrying on goes on every single time Facebook implements a major change to their UI? Why do you suppose this is?
I pretty much stopped giving a shit about Facebook after they forced all pages to use the timeline. Seriously. I was using Wedgebook quite a lot at the time. Then came the timeline. And I gave up. The layout was okay to me. Why bother replacing it with something that might sometimes look super-cool, but generally confuses everyone and is still 'broken' months after its introduction?
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2. As a sort of corollary to the answer to the above question, something that is a long way departed from the conventional forum structure is actually going to confuse people, leading to a feeling of detachment, ostricisation, and any headway made out of doing something different is lost.
There are more ways to present a forum layout, actually, but they're usually tied to a main website. And thus, it may work for them. But for a website that is purely about its forum, there's a default layout and you should stick to it, at least in the general sense.
4568
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 11:24 PM »
Quote from Arantor on August 24th, 2012, 07:44 PM
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(Hey Pete, I think I've found a bug in the poll system... The voter viewing options are all off by default... Shouldn't it be set to the first one by default?)
Yay another bug :P Yeah, it can have a defaul
(Fixed.)
Quote from Arantor on August 24th, 2012, 07:44 PM
t.
I actually like all of them, it's almost mood dependent, but I tend to stick with Weaving because it's the default theme and I'm most used to it.
Yeah, it's really mood dependent for me too.... But since I wrote Weaving to be the 'best' of all (as well as the most neutral), I'd be really displeased if I wasn't using it 90% of the time ;)
Posted: August 26th, 2012, 11:09 PM
Quote from Oracle on August 24th, 2012, 11:38 PM
The problem I have is they all have a very basic feel to them which for me is rather disappointing. I was hoping for a more polished assortment of themes that do justice to the Wedge brand as being the NEW kid on the Bloc!...Now theres an idea?
Well... First of all, SMF provides one new theme in every new major version, not three like I'm doing ;) (Well, 4 for now, but I only have plans to release the best 2 or 3.)
I think that Weaving is a much better skin than most anything I've seen on SMF. There are a couple of themes by Bloc that I like as much as I like Weaving, and a few themes by Dziner which I like as much or more than Weaving. Mostly because they have more coherence overall. (Wedge is still in alpha, I know...!)
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New software, particularly WEDGE should = A new overall look that differentiates significantly from other forums in general.
As was explained in the posts in between -- yeah, it's not that easy.
I try to keep in touch with reality. XenForo did away with a few horrific forum concepts -- but added oddities of its own. Invision evolved in a nice way, but it's still basically the same as in the beginning, only with a modern twist. vBulletin is... oh well, vBulletin is a joke for a wanna-be designer like me. There's so much to say, I wouldn't know where to begin...
phpBB is another example of boring classicism (in your mind?), but OTOH phpBB3 introduced something that none of the other forums had done so far (except for my custom SMF back in the day for a few weeks -- until I got bored with it): showing avatars on the RIGHT of the messages. (Something, you'll notice, that is available in one of my skins.) SMF has always been about classicism too, but at least Curve added some modern (at the time!) features like rounded corners and daring padding. FluxBB went for modern simplicity too, perhaps way more than the rest of the pack -- but it's also probably a feeling due to the fact that they don't ship many features by default. Making it easier to provide a site-wide cleanliness.

So, most of the forum software is built around the same concepts, but tries to customize it in a way that doesn't scare people away, and yet establishes a visual theme that ensures people 'stick' with it or at least recognize the forum software across multiple websites.

What Wedge did was exactly the same. I went through the code to make it more modern, and tried to make the designs interesting while still retaining the classic forum layouts.
You may or may not believe me -- but I find it harder to do than starting from scratch.
Because what you don't want is finding yourself with the mess that Vanilla is. Here's an example of a 'popular' forum system that actually makes me want to facepalm everytime I see a forum running it. Perhaps even more than when I see a vBulletin-powered forum.

Conclusion: Wedge does provide one of the most original layouts for a SMF fork. Really. Can I make it stand out even more? Obviously yes. Do I have time to do it? Not really. Do I want to do it? Again, nope. I think maybe I can work on that for Wedge 2.0, but we need to retain our SMF-friendly aspects for now.
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A fresh bold new look that definitely stands out from the rest. Something that truely signifies the new era in forum software that Wedge is attempting to convey?..Yes?
Well, just because the previous header said 'new ways for a new age' doesn't mean I announced Wedge as the 'new era' of forum software... It's mostly a 'level up', like the Aeva links say. I'm taking it to the next phase, but it doesn't mean it's a complete rewrite. You'll want to look for smCore for that. Which won't be out for another couple of years...
4569
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 10:49 PM »
Quote from Johnny54 on August 26th, 2012, 04:44 PM
Sorry Nao.
I am using IE9 (version 9.0.8112.16241 including update KB2722913) running on Windows Vista.
IE9 + Win7 working fine... :-/
I don't know, try to reload the cache or somethin'...
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Specific? Hmmm that's hard. It's just the overall looks.
But I like for instance the squares around de headers in the sidemenu. It's clear what is what in a blink of the eye.
Like in Wine..?
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Maybe it's just that Wuthering looks more familiar to what I am used to.
It was designed as a child of Curve, really. Basically, we took SMF2, and started stripping away the stuff we didn't like.. I pretty much gave myself the role of designer in this, so I started to remove all of the crap in the templates that was there for IE6 compatibility, and then I proceeded to use clean CSS instead, and after a while I'd come up with something relatively close to an hybrid between Curve and Wuthering.
Then I wrote a sub-skin for it that I called Wine because of its violet colors. Pete liked it, so I pushed it as the default skin, and Wuthering became the sub-skin itself. During the conversion process, I made a few mistakes that ended up making it even less Curveish than it used to be. Then Wine itself became a sub-skin (again) after Weaving became the new default (has been for the longest time, and still planning to have it as default.) And in the process, blah blah blah, Wuthering got screwed again. I just don't care enough about it...
Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't just drop all gradients from it. Bit like Warm... But with cold (wuthering!) colors, obviously.
4570
The Pub / Re : Re: More thoughts on SMF 2.1
« on August 26th, 2012, 10:41 PM »
Or maybe they'll recognize the one on the left the same way ;)

I'm still making tests internally. My current version has an additional drop shadow, distorts the lines and is a monochrome logo. It's... Interesting.
Posted: August 26th, 2012, 10:05 PM

My favorite of today's batch... Pretty much what I described above, except without the monochrome aspect.
4571
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release...
« on August 26th, 2012, 03:05 PM »
Quote from Arantor on August 26th, 2012, 02:52 PM
How many forums do you know that have 65535 boards? Even if we expand that, how many forums do you know that have 65535 boards, blogs and galleries all at once?
Not a single once -- but add to that anything that might be created at some point, and then deleted (remember we're on auto_increment here... Although we could do an Optimize after deleting anything. Might help a bit in case of stuff you create and then immediately delete.)
Still, do we want Wedge to be used only on small forums? Do we want to have people complain that we didn't see the bigger picture?
Of course it's easy enough for an admin to change their field sizes... But I just wanted to do it now. Otherwise, we could just as well limit the id_member field to a smallint, because, well, most forums have a dozen members anyway...!
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Because that wouldn't solve the problem and would probably be even worse.
I'm not sure a subselect would be any slower than a very long query, which Wedge always has to parse anyway...
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Now, wrapping it in a subselect won't solve anything at all because all you end up doing is making it WHERE b.id_board IN (SELECT ...) - which ultimately becomes the same thing, except that you're not even making use of any cache this time.
Parse time. I don't know...

Then, if we start from this, there's also no way we can have privacy settings for topics, posts, etc...
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As far as I can figure out, the only way to make it more efficient is to rewrite all the queries not to use a subselect and to force the board stuff to be conventionally joined, and conventionally excluded (where you have deny) which makes all queries that use query_see_board and its friends all get a way lot more complicated.
Not that complicated. Noisen does have that... Joins instead of subselects for privacy settings.
It just requires to rewrite all queries, which is annoying, but it wouldn't be a first.

So, last time we discussed join vs subselect, I think you came to the conclusion that performance benefits were not obvious..?
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The theory was, as I discussed many months ago, that I wanted to be able to have private repositories that it could call for updates on. But I ran into privacy issues.
Privacy is so cool.
4572
The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 12:09 PM »
Johnny, you didn't tell us what your browser is... (And version!)

Also, to agent47, Johnny54, markham, spoogs: can you try and be more specific about what you like in Wuthering? I swapped the fonts (Segoe UI / Arial) for Weaving and Wuthering yesterday to, maybe, help you determine if this is due to the font choice. (You can easily switch between fonts with developer tools like Firebug or Dragonfly, of course.)
4573
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release...
« on August 26th, 2012, 09:05 AM »
Quote from Arantor on August 26th, 2012, 01:17 AM
Making id_board into anything bigger than smallint actually has much greater consequences than merely messing with the queries.
Leaving id_board as a smallint means limiting ourselves to a forum that doesn't have successful boards, successful blogs and successful galleries... (and especially, not all three of them!)
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query_see_board is still one of the key bottlenecks in more than one place. Making it potentially 1000x worse is not what I had in mind... though I have no idea how to make it better at this stage.
Well... Again and again: what is wrong with using a subselect..?
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I don't recall changing anything that should affect the old packman >_>
Just search for the ManagePlugins history (and install.sql), at some point you added three new fields (username, password and another) to the package_servers table. Don't ask me why...

Have a drink on me.
4574
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release...
« on August 26th, 2012, 12:59 AM »
Quote from Arantor on August 26th, 2012, 12:23 AM
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Couldn't we at least update the most crucial ones, like the id_group stuff..?
I really would leave it alone at this point if you're still planning on doing some kind of release this weekend.
What about we just set id_board to a mediumint, and same for id_group..? We can increase their size again later... No? Because I really don't see myself leaving id_group be like that... Increasing its size will be an incentive for early release of contact lists.
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For everyone else I figure that alpha releases won't really be upgraded, and it's not like we can't just diff the install file to figure out what's changed - and convert that into something else that's easily usable (even here)
Hmm, yeah, yeah...
There are already lots of changes btw... I'm sure the old packman no longer works, here. I know that it crashed my local install because of a few missing fields.
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That's why I want to be sure that it works as is, right now...
It's committed, just needs more testing really.
Nope, the PHP code isn't committed, only the YouTube fixes which I never committed in the first place. To be specific -- my Aeva-Sites.php file had the iframe code in it, and my Subs-Aeva-Sites.php didn't. Meaning that I'd updated the sitelist file, then tested, then was happy, then reverted manually before doing a commit at some point (because of the lack of test), and forgot to re-introduce the iframe code... You won't believe the number of times that kind of crap happened to me!
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I didn't initially understand the consequences but I think the result is better for themers to do so, so go for it :)
I just need to figure out what to put into the URL...
i.e. I don't see a need to have a 'mobile' keyword in the URL, *but* if the current device is a mobile device, *AND* one of the files it needs has a mobile keyword in it, then I need to add that keyword to the URL too, and thus create an extra css file.
The goal being to avoid having the more 'generic' keywords when not needed... But then a new problem occurs. If I use $variable {mobile} = "This is a mobile device" in the CSS code, I'll suddenly find myself with the need to record somewhere that it's a mobile device...

See what I mean..?
I don't. Guess it's time for bed...
4575
Features / Re: New revs
« on August 26th, 2012, 12:34 AM »
rev 1677
(6 files +1-1, 3kb)

* YouTube Playlist embedding should be more forgiving of odd URLs. (Subs-Aeva-Sites.php)

* Now that all browsers can target a specific version in CSS, renamed extra.gecko.css to reflect the fact that the hack in question is for Firefox 2 and below! (extra.gecko.css, extra.firefox[-2].css)

! Fixed mini-menus in IE7 and iOS, like I did for IE6 last week. I just didn't realize the same issue was there... Also saved some space in IE6 CSS and Warm. (extra.ie*.css, extra.iphone.css, Warm/extra.css)

! Fixed code blocks being broken by a known bug in IE8. (extra.ie8.css)