[2013] Arantor back on SMF Team!

Powerbob

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[2013] Arantor back on SMF Team!
« on October 10th, 2013, 11:09 AM »Last edited on September 29th, 2015, 11:30 AM by Nao
I see Arantor is back on the SMF team, as developer. Wow that did not take him long :hmm:

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #1, on October 10th, 2013, 12:31 PM »
Old news, it's been at least a week or two... :P

I would comment on this, but I've already done it elsewhere...
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=511570.msg3617460#msg3617460

To be specific, this is also the topic where Arantor first came up with the 'idea' of rejoining the team.
You'll also notice that all of his ideas are to take Wedge features and put them into SMF.

Just a month ago, he did say that he'd never join the SMF team... Anything but them, eh? Now, these days, he's speaking FOR the SMF team.

So, basically, nothing new. Pete is unpredictable, and he'll be unpredictable in the SMF team just as well. He's just been, let's say... back-porting 1% of his Wedge additions into SMF, very thoughtfully trying to limit the impact that Wedge will have upon SMF users once it's out. Thus, putting even more pressure on me to (1) release Wedge to the public, (2) keep the license closed, so that Wedge has at least some edge over SMF. I'm not exactly sure what he wants... But, it's not very friendly to me, despite anything he'll say.

Ah well, who cares. Wedge is close to public alpha status, so, whatever.

Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #2, on October 10th, 2013, 05:30 PM »
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To be specific, this is also the topic where Arantor first came up with the 'idea' of rejoining the team.
I hope you realize how wrong that line is, due to the fact that he did not decide to join the team, but rather was voted in even before he was asked if he wanted to join the team.

As for the rest, I choose not to bite and comment on it.

Drunken Clam

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #3, on October 10th, 2013, 08:27 PM »Last edited on October 10th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 10th, 2013, 05:30 PM
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To be specific, this is also the topic where Arantor first came up with the 'idea' of rejoining the team.
I hope you realize how wrong that line is, due to the fact that he did not decide to join the team, but rather was voted in even before he was asked if he wanted to join the team.

As for the rest, I choose not to bite and comment on it.
With respect, I think you must have read a different thread than me then!! Pete was CLEARLY asking for the position, despite having said publicly that he would never take a team position. To be voted in for anything, you have to be a candidate, so your view is distorted! Yes, things change, but a lot has been said over the last 5 years or so and I genuinely believe Pete hasn't a clue about what he really wants in his life. I'm in no way knocking him, it's his life after all, but he does have a tendency to change his mind, chuck toys out of the pram etc., often.

I really hope he sticks with his latest venture, but I wont hold my breath.....

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #4, on October 10th, 2013, 08:40 PM »
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 10th, 2013, 05:30 PM
Quote
To be specific, this is also the topic where Arantor first came up with the 'idea' of rejoining the team.
I hope you realize how wrong that line is, due to the fact that he did not decide to join the team, but rather was voted in even before he was asked if he wanted to join the team.
He never mentioned that anywhere.
Even then, what would it change? He said he wouldn't join. Weeks later, he joined. Are you implying that he only refused to join because he feared he wouldn't be voted in?
Well then it's even worse.......
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 10th, 2013, 05:30 PM
As for the rest, I choose not to bite and comment on it.
I didn't ask for anyone to comment. I'm not interested on flame wars. I am, however, not going to lie when asked what I think about Peter's behavior. He disappointed me a lot. I trusted him to behave better than he did in the end. Regardless of what he thinks-- it just doesn't look good for him. And I'm really sad about it.

kimikelku

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #5, on October 10th, 2013, 09:00 PM »
Im no one to judge people, and this is just my 2 cents that mean nothing, but that was a sad decision from Arantor, dont get me wrong i dont want to get misunderstood.

Arantor

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #6, on October 10th, 2013, 10:03 PM »
Here's an idea. Read my posts.
Better idea: ask me rather than pointlessly speculating about this crap.

I don't owe any of you an explanation but I'd rather the record be set straight if only to stop the pointless speculation.

I left Wedge because I was unhappy at the relationship Nao and I had. The fact that I'm now the bad guy and on the wrong end of some of his attitude in various places is a side matter. I am still unhappy about it but nothing's going to change anyway.

I warned him even before I left that I'd probably end up contributing to SMF rather than going it alone because I don't have all the skills to successfully launch, support and maintain such a project by myself.

I then did attempt to contribute some small things to SMF and ran into the brick wall that was Github. And didn't want to because of the hassle I was experiencing. I subsequently found a better Git tool than the skanky Github for Windows tool and have not had any problems since.

Meanwhile other events were going on (such as the project manager leaving, certain comments were also made in public that made me believe there were some distinct amounts of backstabbing going on) that made me say I weren't interested in collaborating with the SMF team.

So while all this was going on, I was working on Pyrapage, exploring some of my ideas, before realising I was so far out of my depth I was likely to drown.

The issues with the SMF team then got resolved in a way I was happy with. I spoke to the team about rejoining but the vote was put before I formally said 'I want to join', and the vote was firmly in my favour, and while it was going on I formally said sign me up.

And here we are. I don't see that I'm being unpredictable, it just appears that way because you don't have the full story. And the bits you do have, you choose to ignore for whatever reason.


Here's a thought. Nao, maybe if you didn't have your head so far up your own ass all the time, that you can't hear anything for shit, none of this would have happened.

I'm mostly disappointed about how little some of you actually think of me. Keep your pity. Give it to someone who might actually find some use for it.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #7, on October 11th, 2013, 01:23 AM »
IMO its fair to say that it is a bit surprising that you criticized the SMF team for so long, Arantor, then when asked suddenly joined them. That jump there - regardless of what have/have not happened between Nao and you - is the part where it could almost seem like it was a revenge kind of thing. Good if it isn't, a bit low if it is...wouldn't you agree?

But hey, there are several things that echo back to my own choices and actions, so I am personally not that upset about it. :) But as mentioned - from this side: the Wedge side and of course Nao's side - it would seem upsetting indeed. On the outside, at least, it did look as if Wedge was the *both* of you right from the start.

But in the name of peace-making..is it really a race game? Does one have to be *better* than the other(not talking actual coding etc. but simply whos the "better" forum software) ? The way I see it, Wedge and SMF will be 2 different directions(or any other fork for that matter),and  not taking each others place.(or in this case, SMF place since its of course most used) anyway.

EDIT: typos

Shawn

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #8, on October 11th, 2013, 07:03 AM »
Nao,

If I was an advanced coder, I'd join the Wedge team but I am not so you would have to teach me everything :P

But realistically, I look forward to the release of Wedge and I have high hopes for it. :)

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #9, on October 11th, 2013, 11:06 PM »
Quote from Arantor on October 10th, 2013, 10:03 PM
Here's an idea. Read my posts.
The novels?
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Better idea: ask me rather than pointlessly speculating about this crap.
Again: why waste time on this? I said it above: I'm no longer into flame wars. They're an utter waste of my precious time. I already didn't have enough time on my hands back when you did half[1] of the work on Wedge.
You got overwhelmed, too, but you didn't have my optimism, so you left. It's definitely not the highlight of your career, and I'm sure you'll agree. No need to elaborate on that for days on end.

So, apparently, you still need an answer from me, so I'll be answering your post... But I'm not happy about that. I'm going to have to say unpleasant things, things I'd rather have kept for myself. Read or ignore, it's your call.
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I left Wedge because I was unhappy at the relationship Nao and I had.
The extent of which I only learned after you left. I don't have fantastic people skills, but yours..?
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The fact that I'm now the bad guy and on the wrong end of some of his attitude in various places is a side matter.
What did you expect? You're the one who left the project. I'm the one who's struggling hard to look into the admin are and get up to speed with what you did on it, so that I can work on it too in the future. I wouldn't have had to do it if you hadn't left, so I have all reasons to be unhappy with your departure. So, as I said: you left. Don't expect Wedge followers to send you flowers, and don't think that SMF followers won't fear that you end up doing the same for SMF, in a few months. You are well known in the forum community as an unstable person. And that's your own doing. How many times did you remove your sm.org account, already..?
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I then did attempt to contribute some small things to SMF and ran into the brick wall that was Github. And didn't want to because of the hassle I was experiencing. I subsequently found a better Git tool than the skanky Github for Windows tool and have not had any problems since.
Which one? Tortoise? Smart? GitExtensions?
To me, any tool is just the same story: they don't show rev numbers. Even if I tag a release, it won't show the number of commits since that tag, I have to do 'git rev-list' or 'git describe --tags' on the command line, which sucks. At least, Mercurial has out-of-the-box supports for rev numbers, so if definitely has my preference, at least in the future.

Anyway, in recent weeks, you only mentioned git as 'an additional obstacle' on joining SMF. And, again, after everything you said about SMF, and its team in particular, it's always baffling to see you completely back out on what you said before. And, contributing your Wedge code to SMF? Definitely not cool, man. Yes, you can do it. But don't expect my sympathy afterwards.
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Meanwhile other events were going on (such as the project manager leaving, certain comments were also made in public that made me believe there were some distinct amounts of backstabbing going on) that made me say I weren't interested in collaborating with the SMF team.
Yep. And suddenly, poof, it's like it never happened. Next thing you know, you're gonna tell me they never backstabbed me either, and they were hours away from offering me a dev position when someone decided to kick me out instead.
See, these things happen because of people, not because of the concept behind the team. And these people-- most of them are still here. And you're suddenly very forgiving towards them.
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So while all this was going on, I was working on Pyrapage, exploring some of my ideas, before realising I was so far out of my depth I was likely to drown.
Why don't I get that feeling when working alone on Wedge, then..?
Oh, maybe because I'm more realistic than you are, when it comes to sorting between feature suggestions and determining which are realistic goals, and which aren't?
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And here we are. I don't see that I'm being unpredictable, it just appears that way because you don't have the full story.
How can I get the full story if you're only willing to share it in obscure hidden comments in a SMF mod you know I'll never see..? That wasn't cool back then, and it still isn't.
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And the bits you do have, you choose to ignore for whatever reason.
I chose to ignore your whims, because I already went through these last year, and I knew (well, I thought I knew) that they were part of you, and discussing them could only bring more frustration. 90% of the time, we worked alone on our areas of expertise, occasionally asking for each other's opinions on what would be best here or there. It worked *great*. We did that for the better of these three frigging years. And if you disagree with that, then it's you who's ignoring reality, not me.
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Here's a thought. Nao, maybe if you didn't have your head so far up your own ass all the time, that you can't hear anything for shit, none of this would have happened.
Nice of you.
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I'm mostly disappointed about how little some of you actually think of me.
Seriously? I'm the one who should be saying that...
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Keep your pity. Give it to someone who might actually find some use for it.
<tired>
Ah, well. If you need to prove yourself, young grasshopper, then set yourself a reasonable goal, and keep at it. And don't work with anyone, because you'll only end up comparing yourself to them.
 1. To make things simple.
Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #10, on October 12th, 2013, 08:14 PM »
Quote from Bloc on October 11th, 2013, 01:23 AM
IMO its fair to say that it is a bit surprising that you criticized the SMF team for so long, Arantor, then when asked suddenly joined them. That jump there - regardless of what have/have not happened between Nao and you - is the part where it could almost seem like it was a revenge kind of thing. Good if it isn't, a bit low if it is...wouldn't you agree?
Well, I'm sure he'll disagree, but you already know that most of us here agree.
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But hey, there are several things that echo back to my own choices and actions, so I am personally not that upset about it. :)
Yep, you're also known as someone who changes their mind quite often... :P
Still, the only person you hurt by doing so, was yourself. You never threatened someone else by choosing to let them down. From the moment Pete and I decided that Wedge should be publicized, we knew we wanted to have a community; there are several dozen people now, who chose to trust us and are waiting for a release, rather than following, I don't know, the developments of Elk or SMF 2.1, or Protendo, or something else. I know I can't let them down. I'm very disappointed that Pete, though, didn't mind one bit about letting everyone down. That doesn't include just me, there are many people here who were affected by his decision. He can't expect those of us who stayed to take his side, then.
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But as mentioned - from this side: the Wedge side and of course Nao's side - it would seem upsetting indeed. On the outside, at least, it did look as if Wedge was the *both* of you right from the start.
And it was.
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But in the name of peace-making..is it really a race game? Does one have to be *better* than the other(not talking actual coding etc. but simply whos the "better" forum software) ? The way I see it, Wedge and SMF will be 2 different directions(or any other fork for that matter),and  not taking each others place.(or in this case, SMF place since its of course most used) anyway.
I'm not sure here. The problem with the competition, to me, is that it's monopolizing the energy of good coders who could be working together instead. Don't anyone dare say to me that Elk or SMF are better than Wedge in any way, it's simply not the case. There are good things in these codebases, which I think would be good for Wedge too, but I'm not like Pete, I'm never going to start working on a codebase that's two years behind, especially in terms of features, and waste a couple other years trying to get it up to speed. That's silly. All I'm waiting for, right now, is other gifted developers interested in working on Wedge in the same way that Pete and I worked together, i.e. diverging fields of interest, and little conflict in our commits so that we don't have to systematically try and decide who's going to get their ideas in.

Really, it's all about not wasting time. And Pete, what he's done -- he's wasting my time right now, and he's wasting his own time too, because he's not working on the software that he knows to be superior.

Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #11, on October 13th, 2013, 01:03 AM »
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Don't anyone dare say to me that Elk or SMF are better than Wedge in any way, it's simply not the case.
A little bit too sure of yourself on that comment, but it shows you do have confidence in Wedge. :)

However, to say that the others are not better, would be ill-advised at this point, as there really has been no basis for this kind of comment. How are you basing it? Due to how many people polled, that are not part of the Wedge community? Based on opinions from what neutral coders looking at them all?

SMF 2.1, Elk, and some of the others can say that about themselves if they want, and get less argument. Why? They are open source and on GitHub, where anyone can examine and test them. Without people testing and looking through the coding, I'm sorry, but I can not stand by and see a line like that without saying this.

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #12, on October 13th, 2013, 01:18 AM »
Suggestion: just look at wedge.org, elkarte.net and whatever demo site they have for SMF 2.1.

I'm not saying the competition is bad. I'm saying they just never had a chance to keep up with us. Amf was busy fighting internally, and elk is too young and there are too many cooks in the kitchen IMHO. Thus, they spend most of their time fixing bugs.

Shawn

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #13, on October 13th, 2013, 03:59 AM »
SMF... the forum software that doesn't listen to its fanbase lol. I bet you that every time I have seen someone suggest a new core feature to it, they have been told that it makes more sense to be a modification or belittled and degraded when they disagree with such a response. Wedge is a way for SMF to evolve into something that is actually worth hitting the download button for... Of course, Wedge will become its own or really is already its own and SMF and still... well its what it has been for many years.


Antes

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #14, on October 13th, 2013, 03:39 PM »
Quote from Nao on October 13th, 2013, 01:18 AM
Suggestion: just look at wedge.org, elkarte.net and whatever demo site they have for SMF 2.1.

I'm not saying the competition is bad. I'm saying they just never had a chance to keep up with us. Amf was busy fighting internally, and elk is too young and there are too many cooks in the kitchen IMHO. Thus, they spend most of their time fixing bugs.
Development philosophy - just because our developers don't do it in wedge way that doesn't mean its wrong...
Quote from Shawn Gossman on October 13th, 2013, 03:59 AM
SMF... the forum software that doesn't listen to its fanbase lol. I bet you that every time I have seen someone suggest a new core feature to it, they have been told that it makes more sense to be a modification or belittled and degraded when they disagree with such a response. Wedge is a way for SMF to evolve into something that is actually worth hitting the download button for... Of course, Wedge will become its own or really is already its own and SMF and still... well its what it has been for many years.
Try vbulletin then it has more features inside it, I'm sure you love it!