[2013] Arantor back on SMF Team!
Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #30, on October 20th, 2013, 01:29 PM »
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 13th, 2013, 07:12 PM
Wait until they are out there, for the general public to use and judge. Then we all will see which is best, in the view of those who count: The users.
That's all I was trying to say. :)

forumsearch0r

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #31, on October 20th, 2013, 02:53 PM »
Quote from TE on October 20th, 2013, 11:01 AM
You're more than welcome to fork and fix it :cool:
While I (as I mentioned above) make my money with coding, I don't have a clue about OpenID implementations, so this would probably take me longer than you... :unsure:

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #32, on October 20th, 2013, 04:26 PM »
Quote from forumsearch0r on October 19th, 2013, 11:26 PM
Hm, let me summarize: Arantor doesn't want to be the bad guy, so he decides to merge Wedge's "top features" into SMF, leaving some more "boo-fucking-hoo everyone hates me" wherever he can.
Well... I guess that's pretty much it, yeah, although I'd use other words.
Fact is, all he's been doing at SMF 2.1 is adding features that are taken STRAIGHT from Wedge. In fact, some of his commits (look at his 05be2b92 revert) have Wedge code in them, such as wesql::query, if proof was needed that he didn't just take his 'ideas', he was taking his code, too.
I don't exactly have time to check all of his commits to see if even a SINGLE line of my own additions finds itself in his commits, but if I ever find something like that, I'm NOT going to let it go with a smile.
He may see this whole process as an attempt to make SMF better; I only see it as removing added value (thus, *substracting* value) from Wedge. Which doesn't go well with me.
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Good and consistent decision, pal.

I wonder what they had to do to make him work with them again. Granting unlimited freedom regarding any changes he wants to commit? Not that SMF wasn't dead enough already...

Popcorn, anyone?
He said multiple times (also implying it in public) that he wouldn't work for the SMF team; the whole 'Let's go make Wedge' was due to the SMF team ousting us for being too bold. For years, we worked towards making the SMF codebase as good as it could be. It is NOT so that the SMF team can get any gratification from our work. The very same team that treated us like shit. (I'm not talking about the current dev team, obviously.) They're going to benefit from our work, our expertise.

I think most people here will understand if I'm not happy with that.
Other than that, I couldn't care less about what he has to bring to SMF. Good for them. But any code/ideas he takes from Wedge? Shame on him.

forumsearch0r

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #33, on October 20th, 2013, 04:29 PM »
Quote from Nao on October 20th, 2013, 04:26 PM
look at his 05be2b92 revert
I wish I could!
Quote from Nao on October 20th, 2013, 04:26 PM
Other than that, I couldn't care less about what he has to bring to SMF. Good for them. But any code/ideas he takes from Wedge? Shame on him.
Basically, it's "his own work" he contributes (again). I don't know if the Wedge license allows that though. :whistle:

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #34, on October 20th, 2013, 04:36 PM »
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 20th, 2013, 01:16 AM
I still have not learned much on using it...LOL.
I don't think more than a handful of GH users are using it to its full extent.
Here's what one learns over time: Git is needlessly complicated, but it still allows one to do things like SVN[1]. It just adds new features to it. Useless features, for the most part. Some of SVN's 'easy' features are also replaced with more complicated features, but that's where Google is your friend, I guess. When I need to import a SVN repo, I just do svnadmin load on my command line. When I need to do a Git repo, I'll copy & paste a long and complicated command I found on Google. As long as it gets done, eh..?
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SMF, Elk and others are having theirs open, so people can see what is going on, and even test it out, via download from GitHub. That's what I meant by showing all, and by the larger community.
The Wedge codebase will be out soon. But it'll first go through a short 'private' phase on Bitbucket, and then I'll move it to Github, when it's okay to do it.
Fact is, I don't really believe anyone will offer any pull requests for Wedge. Really, anyone who has read access to the Wedge SVN (or a zip of the late 2012 alpha) could have offered diff patches, it's easy to generate, but nobody did. (Well, John did a couple, which got integrated, but really he's the only one. Also, Dragooon wrote the initial notification system but it was as a plugin, not a patch.)
So, I really don't see any reason why others would provide anything, as desirable as it might be to me.
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I mean heck, I've not even been able to look into the admin section of Wedge, so I can't even give much opinion on how it is.
Well, it's pretty good... But also complicates things if you're used to the SVN admin area, I guess...
It was Pete's thing. His area of expertise. I'm only getting started resuming work on it, but all in all, I know I'll eventually overhaul the most 'obvious' change he made to it, i.e. the homepage. I've never liked it.
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Granted, as a user, I do see a lot that I like. If I did not, I would not have signed up here. Just because I'm a team member for SMF, does not mean that I have to use just that for all my sites.
What do you do at SMF?
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I do have plans on trying Wedge with at least one of my sites. :)
Well, you do whatever you want, I'm not concerned with what people do with Wedge, as long as they follow the rules with it! ;) (i.e. no redistribution, and no copyright removal.)
 1. In fact, even GH's Windows application only shows the most basic things you can do with it; it's even simpler than TortoiseSVN in concept, so that goes to show, you don't HAVE to know everything about it... Thankfully.
Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #35, on October 20th, 2013, 04:42 PM »
Quote from forumsearch0r on October 20th, 2013, 04:29 PM
Quote from Nao on October 20th, 2013, 04:26 PM
look at his 05be2b92 revert
I wish I could!
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/commit/aec98628cbc78d30a38f2dcf68dfc747740a899f
(Not sure why it doesn't have the same commit ID as on my local copy, though...)
Quote from forumsearch0r on October 20th, 2013, 04:29 PM
Basically, it's "his own work" he contributes (again). I don't know if the Wedge license allows that though. :whistle:
To make things short... The Wedge license doesn't allow it, no.
However, if it IS code that he wrote, I have no reason to sue him. Just because he's been acting like a jerk for the last two months, doesn't mean I forgot we did great things together for several years. (He probably forgot himself, though...)

I just don't want to re-use a single line of my own contributions without my authorizations, that's all.
Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #36, on October 20th, 2013, 04:44 PM »
Quote from BurkeKnight on October 20th, 2013, 06:01 AM
I'm not saying that they all should share everything...
Just the things that may improve security for all, and some of the things that they all may be able to work on jointly, for the betterment of all.

SMF and the SMF forks are together, against all the rest, and sharing some things would be a good idea, in my opinion.
I've always shared security issues I found. They just didn't care.

I don't know where their security advisories are posted, though...

forumsearch0r

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #37, on October 20th, 2013, 04:49 PM »
:wow:

 :lol:
Quote from Nao on October 20th, 2013, 04:42 PM
To make things short... The Wedge license doesn't allow it, no.
Well, given that what he does is (more or less) betraying you, you might want to punish that. Good times which have come to an end are no reason for forgiving anything IMO.

TE

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Thorsten "TE" Eurich - Former SMF Developer & Converters Guru

Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #39, on October 20th, 2013, 07:31 PM »
Nao,

I am now a Support Team member.

You should know, if read any of my posts at SMF, that I always not only respect people's copyrights being there, but have been known to add ones that I thought should be there. :)

I'd still love to explore Wedge, and can't wait to see it come out.

Arantor

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #40, on October 21st, 2013, 04:28 AM »
So if you're going to talk shit about me, at least have the courtesy to do it in public, because this topic isn't public.

Firstly, you want to bitch about my including 'Wedge' code in SMF 2.1... except you didn't bother to notice it wasn't actually my commit. If you look at TE's link, you will see it was Live that introduced it, I merged it because I wasn't paying attention and then I fixed it.

Secondly, I don't deny I pulled a dick move. But frankly it was better than the alternative. I was honest with myself, and honest with you. More than I'd been in months. I've given you my reasons for doing what I did. I don't ask you, or anyone, to understand. It's quite clear you don't want to even if you are capable of doing so.

Thirdly, I'm perfectly within my rights to use my ideas and my code in SMF if I so choose. I don't see what it is you're actually bitching about because you never liked the changes I made to the admin panel as you're so fond of telling everyone who'll listen.

Here's the thing, I pulled a dick move but I held up my end of the bargain in the aftermath. I gave you a licence in writing to ensure you'd never have any problems with my code from a legal perspective, as I told you I would. I could have been an insufferable ass about it, but I wasn't. I did the least dickish thing I could do about it.

In fact, if you were to ask the team, they'd probably turn around and tell you that I was surprisingly considerate, there are things coming that I asked them if I should tell you about, because I thought you should know, things that affect Wedge as well as SMF, but since all you can do is stab me in the back every chance you get, no special treatment there.

Next time there's a security issue, you'll have to wait for the patch like everyone else. Then again since it'll be me working on it, the odds are you won't trust it anyway because you don't think I'm particularly competent - that much is evident. But I'll leave you to figure it out from the patch like everyone else gets.


Here's the kicker: I don't want to fork Wedge. The more I look at it, the more incompatible it is with what I have in mind for future SMF versions. SMF may not be as fully featured as Wedge, but there's absolutely no way the code is better in Wedge. The amount of stuff rammed through the buffer at the end of page processing is shocking.

Still, let's see how things progress over the next year, eh?


EDIT: I can't believe I got sucked back in to this drama again. Some people were considerate enough to tell me what you'd been saying about me. And for the longest time I tried not to care (as people you won't believe will happily attest). But it got to me, it got to me that I still care what other people think.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #41, on October 21st, 2013, 09:15 AM »
Seriously, Pete..? Don't you think you've harmed yourself enough by now?!

forumsearch0r

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #42, on October 21st, 2013, 11:24 AM »
Quote from Arantor on October 21st, 2013, 04:28 AM
SMF may not be as fully featured as Wedge, but there's absolutely no way the code is better in Wedge. The amount of stuff rammed through the buffer at the end of page processing is shocking.
So you actually put shocking code into Wedge until it was too much and now you complain about it being too much? :whistle:

Nao

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Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #43, on October 21st, 2013, 12:50 PM »
Quote from forumsearch0r on October 21st, 2013, 11:24 AM
So you actually put shocking code into Wedge until it was too much and now you complain about it being too much? :whistle:
I'm responsible for *most* of the ob_sessrewrite additions. Next thing you know, he'll say he always hated Wess, never thought skins were a good idea, and thought skeletons to be stupid. When I only said what I'd always said: that I didn't like the admin homepage. And that's the only admin area page I ever shared my concerns about. But it looks like Pete still has issues with his self-confidence, and he has to prove to everyone that he knows best. Oh, well... Hopefully, he'll grow past that.

This is what it does, in addition to what SMF already did (the non-trivial blocks of code are indicated by a star):

- Turns all http://wedge.org/ tags into the actual board URL. Which is a feature Pete loved.
- A meta description hack (by Pete)
- Hooks
- Showing header CSS, the elegant way.
* Delayed events -- making for much faster page loads, even when using jQuery. Could be disabled, but that would imply loading jQuery systematically from the header, which on the first page load, may be quite visible. I'm not against putting this into a setting, but nobody ever even suggested it. (Also, Pete loved it.)
* Soft-merging of posts. Wanted to put that into a setting, but it was such a popular feature (including with Pete), I decided against it.
* Macro replacements. Very powerful. Enabled through skins.
* Skin replacements. Even more powerful, but use with care. Enabled through skins.
* Membergroup colors. Written by me originally, but Pete bloated it up to use classes and caching. I was in favor of this, but Pete, don't tell me I'm always the cause for bloat, all right?
- Hiding profile links for users who can't view them.
- Topic prefixes
* Pretty URLs (probably the only feature in this list that Pete didn't like.)
- Indenazi hack. Only executed if used in a skin.
- HTML minification; only executed if a secret setting is set...
- Link shortening (this is different from pretty URLs; it doesn't change links, only makes the page easier to compress.)

Most of these features could (and I think it was brought up at some point) be moved to their own functions, as long as we're providing a link to $buffer of course, but it's really just a matter of ethics.
What happens here, is that these features are *best* placed in ob_sessrewrite, because it saves time, and makes overall coding easier for plugin authors (e.g. they don't have to care about membergroup colors themselves, as Wedge does it for them after they output their HTML.)

Now, if we ignore his comment about page processing, I'm afraid I can't take seriously the mention that the 'code is better in SMF'. If anything...

Code: [Select]
$smcFunc['query']('', 'SELECT * FROM {db_prefix}table');
everywhere, versus
Code: [Select]
wesql::query('SELECT * FROM {db_prefix}table');

I'm only very sad to see Pete actually forgot the three years he spent on improving the SMF codebase with me. He's back about two years before, and suddenly finds himself in a position where he can't break existing mods and has to cope with all the crap in SMF (same crap that is mostly gone in both Wedge and ElkArte), so he could hardly make a point about that.

The SMF codebase was fantastic and very modern in 2003. We're in 2013. Either SMF keeps mod compatibility, or it gets a better codebase. But it can't have BOTH, thus making Pete's point completely absurd.

Okay, I promised myself I wouldn't reply his post, so I'm going to stop there, because technically I'm replying to a sentence of it through a quote... -_-
Re: Arantor back on SMF Team!
« Reply #44, on November 1st, 2013, 11:51 PM »
FWIW, I split this topic into three. The other topics are 'git hiccups' (everything about my not knowing git merging well enough, and misunderstanding something because of that), and 'feline hiccups' (the flame war about her, obviously.)
In the Off-topic board, of course.