Wedge

I usually don't like to vent stuff but I will not allow people to go talking so lightly about my persona.Yes... we all are a buch of egocentric bastards:



The vid is hilarious... I love Steve Nash :D

BTW, I didn't left because of supporting Norv... I left because you keep trying to run things like a corporation and fail to realize that SMF is an open source project now.
I left because you only want to survive by releasing 2..2, 2.3, 2.4 ad so on... going around in circles with the same old codebase that cannot be expanded any further (do note that I said "expanded" and not "refactored").
i left because, what did you call me? oh yeah, a poisonous people and you were suppose to replace me with some other person who can work under your command.. I'm still waiting as I'm eager to meet my replacement :P
And lastly, I left because no one actually saw me as a dev, even in this whole convo... I was never approached when the whole Norv thing imploded, never approached to do anything, heck, I wasn't even approached when Dialogo started... talking about feeling like a complete outkast... neither of both sides wanted me :P  so thats why I decided to work on my own, to let people know what I'm capable of...

I didn't left because I think I'm better than you... or anyone else in the team either...
I didn't left because I don't want everyone to say how I should code (I lost count on how many times I told everyone that I was OK with SMF team members telling me what to do. do note I said SMF and not SM ;) )

I tried to give SMF some directions (currently there is none...), I was fully aware that SMF couldn't survive my plan, however, I also gave ideas on how to reduce that long period of time... this wasn't revolutionary ideas... all of then was plain and simple open source ideas that has been used by countless of projects for decades... what did I get? You're wrong, not even a feasible explanation on why I was suppose to be wrong at...

SMF is dead, the only capable person is there out of pity, I told you a gazillion times how to attract new external blood, how to be more open, how to embrace a truly open source path but you keep thinking SM needs to control everything and every aspect...

The way you envisioned further development of the 2.0 code will effectively gonna place SMF in an "undead" phase, not dead but not live either, just hanging around, viewing the years pass by, going nowhere...

I just wanted to clear that out as I hate people talking a one side story...

Oh, BTW, I started on support, moved to Cust, did a lot of documentation in Spanish, a good portion of the Spanish_latin language  was done by me...  so yeah, I'm not a codemonkey only nor am I the egocentric bastard you think all devs are...

Seems to me that the underlying issue with all this stems from peoples DIFFERENCES OF OPINION in all areas of development / management. Resulting in feelings of rejection, questions of self worth, challenges of ego, beliefs that one persons ideas are far better than another's and so on. And the fact that no resolve is possible purely because you simply cant please everyone!

And the fact that there is no real mechanism that's in place to ensure things are being handled so as to foster enthusiasm and @ the same time provide the necessary timelines or goals that are generally seen to be prerequisites for any operation either small or large.

Having to cater for everyone's whim is one thing that SMF is stuck with and it becomes infinitely harder as the team expands whereas in Wedges case less people result in fewer clashes of opinion. Things can be discussed and resolved in a timely fashion without encountering the red tape and personality clashes that are prevalent in a larger scale operation.

True, the less people the less friction ..at least on an idealistic level. But it can work with more people too. its just to be agreed upon certain ground rules, and of those one HAS to be "equal worth". Yes, people will have opinions, but person A is more likely to go along with person B's ideas, if the same is returned. Too often it has been one way street.

I cannot understand the fear of "breaking" SMF so to speak..why could not the work being done in forks now, have been done inside SMF too? It would make a lot of sense if SMF embraced forking, or rather "directions" instead of trying to follow a "safe" path and alienate everything else(which is even done mostly by ex-SMF people lol).

What can be really done to SMF now? Isn't it all that it can be asked of a forum already? I belive it is, so to improve it has to be changed, maybe majorly. Its a risk..but so was starting SMF in the first place too.

Yes, of course we are. That's the point. Non devs, generally, don't get it. Ego is part of what we do, and if you don't have a strong ego, fair chances your code isn't that strong either. The problem is when ego starts writing checks that your skills can't cash.This in spades. It's interesting to note that a few weeks ago I had this argument with people who aren't even team members, trying to explain why it couldn't be run like a corporation.There are a number of talented devs who've come through the SMF doors. Interesting how none of them are sticking around. We can't all be poisonous. I know I can be but usually only after eating too many sprouts.I deliberately skirted round dragging you into this, because I wasn't sure what you were doing and didn't want to drag you back into the madhouse if you'd escaped and weren't interested in being part of the madhouse.

Dialogo/Elkarte is a very specific beast. I haven't joined because I don't want to crowd them, though I commented on a few things on Github. It has certain roads it is going to walk down, lead by Norv. They're roads I don't particularly care to share, but that's down to me. I do get the impression that you might feel happier staying out of it, though.There has been a tremendous lack of direction for years. The sad part is that the phase we're in now is possibly one of the more phases of direction it's *had* in years. At least it has some kind of direction.There are none so blind as those who will not see.Yup, another for the list of people who came up through the ranks and put their time into various things.

---

Some of the differences of opinion are just that - simple differences in opinion, and that's what makes life so interesting. But there's differences of opinion, and DIFFERENCES OF OPINION. It comes back to something I've observed a great many times - that people don't know how to communicate very well.

There are things I've done, and things Nao's done that we've individually disliked the other going off and doing. But even though I might disagree with what he did or he disagrees with what I'm doing, there's always respect, and there's always an understanding that the disagreements are not personal.

Extrapolating this a bit, I see a lot of arguments where people don't seem to be able to handle disagreeing with an idea vs ignoring an idea. If I make an observation about the characteristics of something, that's fine. If it disagrees with where you want to take it, also fine - but when you're taking it where you're taking it, be sure to take what I've said into account. It may change your direction, it might not, but you can explain that you disagree with me without making me feel like it was a waste of my time introducing my observations. This is something lacking in a lot of arguments.

I disagree, for example, with how SMF is implementing hooks in SMF 2.1. I've explained my concerns with the proposals, and that's fine. They can still do it how they were going to do it, and that's also fine. But if they run into the problems I outlined, I'm not going to be very impressed if they start whining about it when they get there. It's the proverbial "I told you so" moment, and it's not even a smug triumphant one, but an understated and sanguine one.This is part of the problem. Kindred seems to be labouring under the idea that devs don't care about team input, which is a long way short of reality, but there you go. The problem is when everyone on the team seems to believe their opinion is as valid as the devs - so that what the other team members say should be done gets prioritised.

Here's the thing. When we introduce new ideas and concepts, we introduce them but we don't entirely open the floor. We open the floor for feedback, discussion and so on, but it's not likely that what ends up getting written will be too far from what was discussed. This is an example of what I'm on about - I'll open the floor, let people have their say and take it into account when polishing it - even if I don't agree with where they're trying to take it. SMF hasn't learned that ability yet.Because SMF is too conservative. SMF with a gallery built in? What fresh hell is this?! It's also something I've found very ironic - that SMF chose to have freedom but it refuses to embrace it with all that goes with it.

Wedge is one direction, Elkarte is another, bloQS is another. These may be partially or completely mutually exclusive - so SMF does nothing and sits with what is safe. But the rest of us do something not safe, but what we learned from the journey, we're not encouraged to share, and in some cases have been actively discouraged from so doing. It's like they embraced the name of freedom but not the spirit somehow, which is a shame.

True, its conservative and in a way I can understand that, to maintain stability. But it should still be able to experiment within. The problem I guess, are the people..or rather the people that feel they should decide where SMF is going. So, the only way out is the fork. :D

do note Suki....  my main point was not the "over ego crap" that was the lead in to:
... or (which is more likely) the whole thing is based on a series of misunderstandings and overreactions which folks are either too embarrassed or too stubborn to discuss.

And as for running it like a corporation, you are actually mistaken there (and I never called YOU a poisonous personality, afaik)
we run SM like a corporation (because, it is) and the project gets run as a project. That's what you seem to have always failed to see - the separation between the project and the corporation. (and that's what I always saw you getting upset about, actually - in your confusion, you assumed that corporate crap was aimed at you - when it never actually was.)

When the whole Norv thing imploded, I didn't approach anyone. I raised the issue or what happened as an issue - but I'm not in charge any more (thank gods) and I let those who are in charge deal with it (poorly, as it turns out, but that can hardly be blamed on me)
 
As for "true open source path" and "control"... did you even both to read my actual posts?   What I laid out was not about control in any way, shape or form...   it was about giving the people on the dev team the room they need while still giving the rest of the team the voice that they crave (without interfering with the actual development)  Where the FUCK is the control in that?

and Arantor...   I think that way about the devs because the batch of devs we had prior to Spuds, emanuele and Suki did state exactly that... Actually, even one of the recent devs (IchBin) said exactly that.  I have always held up Spuds, emanuele (and to a lesser extent Suki) as models of how the devs can and should work with the team(s).

I fail to realize SMF having no directions, no head,  no path to follow and overall no future beyond the 2.1 scope can be labeled as "overreacting, misunderstandings and been too stubborn"...

At least for me and my point of view, those misunderstandings are the least of your problems... you have no plans, no future, no devs and whats worse, you refuse to treat SMF as an open source project where meritocracy plays an important role and where the dev community construct the software and the team is there to conduct that dev community.

Let me refresh your mind then, there is or there was a topic in Marketing board which you started, out of pure feeling of the moment if you want, where you stated you wanted to replace the current devs or at least the ones who were creating drama at that moment, with new people ready to work under what you think is the best approach for SMF. An approach that just doesn't work...

The reason why 2.1 is where it is is not because of your plan...

Is because Spuds and Ema endured a lot of things for the sake of releasing 2.1...
Is because SMF did have an incredible luck finding those 2.
There was a straight of luck, nothing else, nothing more, an opportunity that will only repeat once in a million years, thats how incredible lucky you were when Spuds and Ema both at the same time, decided to work on 2.1 and had the will and had the knoloae and had the desire and had the patience, all at the same time... without the combination of all those factors, there wouldn't be a 2.1, there wouldn't be any SM... thats how important devs are but you keep treating them as cattle...

Please do search my comments in team boards, find the comment I made months ago about how important Spuds and Ema were for SM (and how you took my comment so lightly...) and that the whole white elephant rely on those 2 fragile shoulders and when the day come when they finally can't stand that heavy load, your holy organization will tremble...  don't want to say I told you so because what I said was nothing new and I actually feel bad that my words become true as I didn't want to but was inevitable...

I'm sorry but your prettified comments here don't match your words inside team boards... gotta be congruent or at least show half the predetermination you show here... because you didn't show me any sighs of predetermination when I told my plans for SMF... dunno if its because this is a public board or neutral ground or what, don't care either because as soon as you go back to private boards, you completely change your speech.

You say you are not in charge and yet you act as someone who is in charge... patronizing everything and everyone who dares to have a different opinion, didn't you mentioned that you know exactly how I think (and act) because you have managed paid codemonkeys for 20-something years?

Heres a protip: $paidDev != $opensourceDev  since AFAIK, SMF doesn't have any paid devs (I remember I do joked about outsourcing the dev team to China and as things currently are, it wouldn't surprise me if the holy SM heads decide to do that...), your gazillion years of experience with paid codemonkeys means absolutely 0 on an open source organization, please stop trying to force that mentality on SMF, you are hurting the project more than you are helping it...

All those words I said months ago are becoming a reality now... as sad as that statement is.

Suki,

as far as I know, I have not changed my tune at all.  I may have expressed it more clearly here because there is less baggage involved... but the plan that I suggested above has been my intention to express all along. Some of it probably got lost in the accusations and other crap.

I never said that "I know exactly how you think and act".
I said that despite accusations to the contrary, I do understand developers.
(and actually no...  you are wrong. paid devs and open source devs are not actually very different. The main difference is that paid devs have to worry about targets because they lose their jobs if they miss too many dates. Open Source devs on the other hand do it because they want to. (see I do understand the difference).  What you don't seem to get is that the entire attitude behind a developer is pretty much the same - paid or volunteer.
What I don't understand is not the devs specifically, but the accusations and crap slung by certain former devs despite the fact that I can not actually seem to find one instance where anyone told them what to do or how to code or forced them to code anything.


And no... at this point, I am not acting as someone in charge. I am acting like someone who thinks he might have some ideas and can express them without being perceived as forcing them on anyone since I have no power to enforce them. Some people on the team listen to me because of the former position I held... but I make no pretense to have any power.
My call to the team suggesting new devs did not have anything to do with getting devs "to work under me" but rather getting some devs who would work WITH the team (at the time I hoped with Spuds and emanuele)

And finally... I never, ever ever tried to take ANY credit for 2.1. **ALL** of that credit goes to emanuele and spuds (with some to you as well). I have been saying THAT from day 1 ever since they stood up to Norv and said "yes, we need a 2.1 release and we'll do it".



So I am not sure what grudge you have against me...  but chill out. I have been frustrated with you and your attitude at times, but I have never called you one of the gits or poison people or anything of the sort. I am not patronizing. I happen to be blunt and unpolitic... yup most certainly. I call things as I see them (which may or may not be correct and may or may not be as you see them) and I do not mince words. Actually, Arantor and I are actually fairly similar in that. :P
Don't assume that bluntness = patronizing, because it does not and was not in my case.

Don't forget there is also a language and cultural barrier at play. I'm British, sarcasm and passive aggression are vital survival skills here. I'm not sure where Suki's from but Spanish seems to be her main language, so what might be considered patronising to an English speaker might be construed as a personal attack to someone who has English as a second language. I can see at times how that might be the case.The really sad part is that this is nothing new. These same arguments have been running for years in one form or another, and I'm glad you've said the above - because it was only a matter of time before I started saying much the same things, though perhaps with a little more subtlety ;) Though, you've hit all the nails on the head with the problems SMF has.

One man does not make a team, and it's not really down to specific statements from any individuals - and that's where it really grates, is because it's so subtle, but so present. It is a closing of ranks, of stonewalling, and similar behaviours - but you have to be on the other side of it to realise it's going on. I suspect half the time the people doing it don't even realise they're doing it.

There are events I won't go into about political machinations, even down to someone admitting to me that they had had a hand in rigging team leader elections by 'encouraging' people to vote in certain lines with the intent of pushing the project forward. I mention this because it is the sort of behaviour that got things to where they are - non-visible signs of people acting with an agenda that serves to close ranks.


There is a sad corollary to this tale. Earlier on today someone who saw this thread, who shall remain nameless (save for the fact they are outside the SMF team), suggested that I step up to the plate as SMF dev, because I have the skills, I have the ability and you KNOW I'm not going to stand for this kind of crap. I said no to the person suggesting it, mostly because I'm far happier with Wedge, but that's really the sort of change that's needed now.

I think the only way to make SMF work is for someone with the skills, the time, and the balls to tell the management to get stuffed when it counts, to step up as lead dev. Ema's too nice for that, Lab doesn't have the skills or experience for it. I don't particularly want the job either because I'd much rather not have to split my time between SMF and Wedge, but if SMF is going to be saved, it's going to take someone like me to do it, someone with the charisma to engage people and motivate, someone with the skills to put their money where their mouth is and someone who ultimately can deliver in spite of management.

The person who suggested this course of action also suggested that perhaps the only way to save SMF is for Wedge to become SMF 3.0 - it is after all a natural conclusion to come to and it's been rather understated.

I think it's fairly clear to say that that isn't going to happen, but not because I'd veto it (I'm not entirely sure how Nao feels on the subject). The Wedge brand is growing, and we're happy with what we have here, and I only dread to think how much work would be required in renaming it back, not to mention engineering everything from 2.1 into Wedge (since we haven't adopted SCEditor or anything, though I'm sorely tempted to), not to mention the freedom that being here gives me that being at SMF wouldn't, as previously discussed. This is assuming I could put my personal pride aside, and my ego, but that's my problem, not SMF's.

There's your answer, folks. SMF will wither and fail after 2.1 unless it can recruit some serious talent, but there's no talent up to scratch coming up through the community, and the only talent that has the skills has sufficiently been alienated by past history that they'd never take up the mantle. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.

It's on a knife edge, and it may yet be saved, but I think something akin to a divine intervention is what's needed. There are people who could help, but they need reaching out to, and they're going to need assurances that it won't be like before - and they won't be ready to believe you. But as I see it, that's the only real future prospects SMF has.

actually, you and I are in complete agreement on that, Arantor.

I'd love to see you as lead dev. :)  I know you don't want it but I'd love it. :)
As I said above (and you agreed)
We need a good dev lead who can motivate a team (and bring others in) and is charismatic and has a strong enough personality to work with the team while holding his/her own (in other words, not total domination, but forward LEADERSHIP)
You are right... emanuele, as wonderful as he is, is too nice (might come from still being young and not as cynical as us old fogeys)
spuds was a consideration, but he's too sensitive. He doesn't have a thick enough skin... and the same goes for Suki.
Lab does not have the skills, knowledge or personality to do it.
We also need a PM who has many of the same characteristics.

Honestly, I don't think we've had a lead dev who falls into that category since unknown left...
we've had a few who came close, but were chased out because they were strong during a time when certain folks did not want strong team leaders.

Orstio would be great to get back... :)
TE might be able to handle it.
You (arantor) could... as could Nao, but you're (understandably) busy with wedge

Wow.  One dev at SMF???????????????

That makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Yes you act as someone in charge... you were one of only two people who blatantly rejected all my ideas... even though you aren't on the steering committee. You push your way of thinking on others... and if there is someone who happens to stand against it, you don't like it and push more aggressively. Thats the "grudge" against you... What Kindred says it gets done...

What attitude do I have?  didn't I told you gazillion of times that I didn't mind to work for the team?
Didn't I heard all your "you are wrong" responses and provided alternatives?

Who is the stubborn? I told my ideas, you told me that smf didn't survive... I then took your advice and provide alternatives... but you didn't provide any alternatives to my advices....  just a "you're wrong"... how can I keep a discussion if the convo is just one way and the other is a wall full of "you're wrong" ?

I had refuted your arguments without the need to curse or saying "you are wrong". You, you haven't change a single bit, hard to get an agreement if you still believe you are always right.

It is funny that you haven't said anything about the future of SMF and keep focusing on the misunderstanding and the "devs been forced" when I haven't said anything about me been forced to code. I wished I was forced, at least that would had made me feel like part of the dev team...  I had so many ideas and hopes for SMF, neither of both sides listened to me or just directly tagged me as a drama queen and automatically assumed that all my messages where drama, thus, bypassing them.

Either way, SMF is not of my business anymore, I just wanted to told my reasons for leaving and nothing more, what happens to SMF doesn't concern me. I have no desires to go back to keep talking to the you're wrong wall and watch all my ideas been crushed for no reason.

Even if I don't want to, I have a first class seat to watch the titanic slowly sink... it has begun and people on it haven't even realize... they are indeed too stubborn (kinda remind me the scene there the first class family doesn't want to accept the fact that the ship is sinking and refuse to wear the lifesavers...) is one of those things that you don't want to watch but you do it anyway because of the morbid factor.

And no, I didn't commit any code to 2.1, didn't had the chance to actually submit my branches, all I did was some minor changes on things that bothered me while creating mods.

Suki, I think you have misunderstood... and I guess the only thing I can point a finger at would be a language/cultural barrier.

To the best of my knowledge, the majority of my "you are wrong" statements were because you kept confusing the project with the organization.
I don't view disagreement with me as a "grudge" nor do I believe that makes someone "wrong" (although, I like to believe that I am right more often than wrong, myself :P)

 So, again, I am unclear on where this is coming from. People have every right to disagree with me...  Arantor does frequently :P

Since rejoining the team, I have been involved in attempting to correct misunderstandings or wrong thinking regarding the organization and, with the exception of the copyright issues and trying to make the team realize that, with devs leaving, we need to figure out a way to get more, I have pretty much stayed out of interteam crap.

(side note, I mostly swear for additional emphasis, because there is no other good way to convey such a tone on the internet)

If you don't see disagreements as a Grudge, do you see them as a Thantos or an Orstio? :P