eolith

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Re: Will Wedge import data from SMF?
« Reply #15, on February 27th, 2013, 07:48 PM »
What drew me to wedge in the first place was simply the focus on trying to do things properly. That's why I keep coming back and checking on your progress 18 months after I first signed up here. When I say "aging" I mean "getting bogged down in the consequences of their past decisions". With my - very limited - perspective it seems to me that's what has nearly stopped SMF in it's tracks in terms of development. As I started getting deeper into how mods work, how they're applied, and I realized their system is a code lookup/replace dealio, I was immediately cognizant of the problems that I'll end up facing the more mods I pursue. Especially as upgrades repeatedly broke even the few simple mods I had installed, leaving me to figure out how fix them myself.

While the SMF product has done what it needs to do, and the face that it's free has served me very well. However, it seems to me that it is not going to be effective in the long-term.  I've already established some rather long-term friends because of my community, and I foresee that continuing long into the future.

This is not to say that I don't want some of the new whiz-bang features you guys are cooking up, it's more about the principle of a solid foundation leading to a solid experience.

Therefore, I want to get started with a system early on that I can grow with, and a system that I can respect from the beginning. Now, lest that come across as a ton of kiss-assery, I think you guys smell so bad I had to type with one hand and hold my nose with the other; and you don't even bother to shave your unibrows.

As for the particular game, Exile (the community) formed around Star Wars: The Old Republic, though most of us moved on around the time they went Free to Play, and are looking forward to Elder Scrolls Online, Destiny, and Star Citizen. This is why we're rebuilding our forums: dropping the TOR portion of the URL, and shifting into more of a gaming community than a single-game guild.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
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Re: Will Wedge import data from SMF?
« Reply #16, on February 27th, 2013, 08:04 PM »
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When I say "aging" I mean "getting bogged down in the consequences of their past decisions".
That's not entirely unfair to the team. There are changes in 2.1 that are direct consequences of 2.0 mentality and structure, and while they're an improvement, they don't really go far enough. For example, in 2.1 they AJAXified the Core Features page. It's a ton better than it was before, it even looks nicer, but it doesn't change the stance I have that the entire design of that page is flawed; it shouldn't even exist (and it doesn't in Wedge)
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As I started getting deeper into how mods work, how they're applied, and I realized their system is a code lookup/replace dealio
They made some amends to that in 2.0 RC4 with an improved hook system (SMF had hooks of a primitive nature for years), but it lacked the single biggest improvement: ability to load files in line. I always wondered how much of a cue they took from SimpleDesk about this because months before 2.0 RC4, SimpleDesk gained a plugin ability through hooks and so on, with a crude plugin manager, but even then I was very clear about the functionality that should be available through hooks - and that even predates Wedge!

But they never took it far enough in 2.0, 2.1 is better but they're too convinced of the importance of having file edits. The choice for me to disallow file edits was not entirely just a 'we're better than you because we don't need this', there is a whole host of related consequences (relatively safe plugin disabling, file permissions/FTP for uploading)
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Especially as upgrades repeatedly broke even the few simple mods I had installed, leaving me to figure out how fix them myself.
Yup, that's one of the frustrations.
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However, it seems to me that it is not going to be effective in the long-term
I agree, but almost certainly for different reasons.
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This is not to say that I don't want some of the new whiz-bang features you guys are cooking up, it's more about the principle of a solid foundation leading to a solid experience.
And that's the thing. We have taken the mature core in SMF and revamped what we thought needed revamping - which isn't 'everything'. Yes, there's been some huge changes, even down to rewriting the ban system for example, but there's a lot of things that have remained essentially untouched.
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Therefore, I want to get started with a system early on that I can grow with, and a system that I can respect from the beginning.
That's a valid point of view. And no, it isn't kiss-assery, it's a valid point of view - but with respect comes great responsibility: to be prepared to say what you don't like about it and what you would like to see done with it. One of the big aspects of feedback that we're lacking all around, really, is people not coming forward (out of those who have access) to say what's wrong with things.

For example, I got into a vB 3 review in the last week and out of it we had some interesting feedback with respect to the moderation centre. It's pretty much the first time in 2 1/2 years that anyone's really outlined that there are problems with it, that it isn't just me who feels that way.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

eolith

  • Wanting to get Wedge on my forums!
  • Posts: 28
Re: Will Wedge import data from SMF?
« Reply #17, on February 27th, 2013, 08:13 PM »Last edited on February 27th, 2013, 08:23 PM
Quote from Arantor on February 27th, 2013, 08:04 PM
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However, it seems to me that it is not going to be effective in the long-term
I agree, but almost certainly for different reasons.
Do you mind expounding on that?

Oh, and from a "negative criticism" point of view, I just got a position with HP as Project Quality Officer Auditor :) So, I'll have no issues giving feedback of any sort ;)

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Will Wedge import data from SMF?
« Reply #18, on February 27th, 2013, 08:18 PM »
There are a number of nasty consequences that result out of the file editing - aside from stability with mod upgrades, the amount of support requests involving botched mod installations, as well as almost every 'I've been hacked' help request is a result of conditions arising out of the package manager.

However, even that's not really my issue. There is a larger issue at stake that some of those in the 'inner circle' are discouraging changes to these facilities and not really encouraging new blood to adopt better practices. All the time there are file edits, people are going to take them because they're easier. There is a very large culture of it being what the old guard want.

eolith

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  • Posts: 28
Re: Will Wedge import data from SMF?
« Reply #19, on February 27th, 2013, 08:34 PM »Last edited on February 27th, 2013, 08:47 PM
Yeah, that's a lot of what I see in the world I work now as an HP quality auditor hired for Fannie Mae Project Quality Office, "Well we always did it that way..." despite the obvious assessment that they are at a very low maturity model from a corporate standpoint, and they hired us to keep them in line in the first place...