Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org

Arantor

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #120, on January 18th, 2013, 06:50 AM »
Aside from the half assed plan to recruit devs that is in the works,[1] the facts haven't changed regardless of miscommunication: SMF is up shit creek without any developers to paddle it back down and no-one with the skills is going to go near it with this stuff going on. The depth I'm getting at is how hard people are going to ignore the truth.

Even if you're right, and this is just a complete fuck up of communication, no dev will trust a team that can't communicate. If only it were a simple case of miscommunication, though.

I cannot believe how much time is being wasted by all in this thread trying various methods to explain to you why things are so broken and why it can't be fixed without changes SMF would not be willing to make.
Posted: January 18th, 2013, 06:46 AM

I have said my piece, done here. Want to carry on arguing, fine. But I lost enough time when I could have been improving Wedge, all for something that can't happen.

Good luck with 2.0.4, and 2.1. A fitting end they will make.
 1. Which is a backfire waiting to happen.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Kindred

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #121, on January 18th, 2013, 07:02 AM »
Arantor,

You seem to be under the misimpression that I (and others) are not aware that there is a problem.
The biggest issue here is that people like you are very quick to exaggerate the actual issues and others, who respect your opinion repeat your words.   Yes, there is a problem. No, the problem is not quite what you seem to think...

I am not sure what half-assed idea to recruit devs you are referring to. I had a suggestion a while ago but was (quite correctly) shot down because it was not actually a very good idea (see, I can admit to being wrong, it occasionally happens. :P ) but as far as I know, while some of the leadership is talking about how to attract some devs, there is not currently any approved plan that I am aware of, half-assed or otherwise. Of course, as long as you keep yelling things like "don't go there, they're all monsters and will crush your soul", any worthwhile devs we talk to will probably walk... not because you're right, but because you're a respected member of the community and, even if you're only telling half the story, they'll listen to you. :(

You are right about one thing though... this thread has gone on long enough and is not contributing anything useful to the ethersphere.

Tshcuss.

Arantor

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #122, on January 18th, 2013, 07:22 AM »
I should let this go, but I can't.

You see the problem as having no developers. You appear to be ignoring all the reasons given for why you have no developers and why no-one wants to join up. This is your real problem.

As for half assed plans, I shouldn't talk about it publicly, especially as you don't seem to be aware of it. It is not spproved but under discussion, suggested by a non-dev who has no idea how to appeal to the right kind of dev.

And there we go with the straw man again. I am telling my story, and other devs are telling theirs. Seems to me that there's a lot more coherence in what we're all saying...

But if we all have it so wrong, prove us wrong and get your house in order.

emanuele

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #123, on January 18th, 2013, 03:10 PM »
Again warning: I've not yet finished the topic...yeah I know I'm slow as hell... (reply 78 at the moment)
Quote from Arantor on January 12th, 2013, 05:48 AM
Ema's too nice for that
Quote from Kindred on January 12th, 2013, 06:03 AM
You are right... emanuele, as wonderful as he is, is too nice (might come from still being young and not as cynical as us old fogeys)
I'm not *so* young (30+), though it's true I don't have leadership experience (neither big attitude).
I'm either not so non-cynical (not sure what could be an antonym...) as you might think.[1][2]
It's true, though, that I'm way too kind.
And I can add I don't have the technical preparation that I myself would expect from a leader of a software development project.
 1. I'm so cynical that I'm still sitting by the side of the river waiting to see where all the opinions the team wants to give are (I posted something mostly ignored by the vast majority...well I got 1 answer), if I don't see any interest from those that are actually *very* interested in the matter I don't waste more of the minimum amount of time possible.
 2. I'm so cynical that I don't give a damn about the name. What I'm interested in is the code. I'm interested in improving it, make it nicer (that doesn't imply I write nice code, in fact it's the exact opposite :P), easier to use, etc. But the name can be SMF, Elkarte, Wedge, Dialogo, whatever as long as it is funny to work with the people involved.

Suki

  • Posts: 59
Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #124, on January 18th, 2013, 03:48 PM »
For the last bloody time... I didn't left because you shut my idea down... I left because you shut it down and provided absolutely no feedback to it...

I said 8 post ago, you said the same, the fact that the idea was shut down is clear, no misunderstandings.

And let me be clear, the ones that disagree with me (I'm talking about my experience, not Norvs), were all NPO people that shouldn't interfere with the project inner affairs. Autonomy is such an utopic concept isn't it :^^;:

If you actually had any confidence on your dev team, you will let me at least to properly present my idea to SMF team members, explain my reasons and all that stuff, that didn't happen.

Is not by coincidence or friendship the fact that Norv and I reach out practically the same goal, and I said practically because my idea wasn¿t gonna take years like Norvs, simply because it was based on an already built and fully operational framework, that along will reduce months of development.

Not only Norv had that idea.
Fustrate had the same idea. <-- he was the original person who put the framework plan on the table.
Spuds admitted that the 2.0 branch cannot be expended any longer.

So there you go, right there you have 4 devs who agreed on this, this is not sorcery or plain coincidence, it is the result of devs knowing what they are talking about, thats why they are devs.


You are throwing accusations as much as I do, you are as flawed and biased as I am, the only difference is that I am open to consider and actually listen to what the other side has to say meanwhile you are so stubborn that you simply cannot see beyond your reasoning, how many post did it take you to finally (semi) admit that you made a mistake about the replacing devs?  considering that this lines:
Quote from Kindred on January 18th, 2013, 07:02 AM
I had a suggestion a while ago but was (quite correctly) shot down because it was not actually a very good idea (see, I can admit to being wrong, it occasionally happens. :P )
Does indeed refer to that, because its vague (if not, sweet merciful Poseidon help us all!). You simply can't openly admit it, dunno why.

That many post, countless of words, just for you to accept something that was pretty obvious...   now imagine the amount of time and energy the devs will have to put for you to finally start to address their points....   is just not worth the effort, might as well start form 0 or start a fork as that would be much much easier...  oh wait, thats exactly what happen :P

BTW, devs don't need to be told how awful you guys are and stuff (nobody told me anything ;) ), they will eventually see it with their own eyes, it has happen to many before and is still going to happen for others again, until you don't fix your house you will be trapped on that loop until you ran out of naive devs and all you have left is all the bitter, sarcastic devs you left behind, I mean, you manage to screw the most wonderful thing you had in years (Spuds and ema) I'm sure it will be quite easier for you to screw some naive novice dev :D

Keep up the good work, you're doing great :cool:

emanuele

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #125, on January 20th, 2013, 12:56 PM »
Quote from Suki on January 17th, 2013, 09:32 PM
Quote from emanuele on January 17th, 2013, 05:45 PM
I can't speak for the others. For what I'm concerned I didn't even thought of inform anyone...
This was out of pure courtesy really, but is not only that.
Yeah, can't say anything else than you are right...and that my character influence negatively many other aspects of my life, not just this specific situation.
Quote from Suki on January 17th, 2013, 09:32 PM
I constantly read about chats between you and Spuds regarding 2.1, I used to enter IRC and having my msn always open as much as possible, yes I talked to you fairly often but it was never in a "working environment", it was always as plain casual chatting. The same with Norv and IchBin.
Anything I could say now would just sound like a lame excuse. I'm really sorry you felt I didn't consider you a dev.
Quote from Suki on January 17th, 2013, 09:32 PM
Anyway, 2.1 development passed just in front of me like a train with no way to get up, I mean, yes I could have sent lots of pull requests I made completely blinded, dunno if that would helped that much, after all, you guys seemed to work just fine together.
Quote from Suki on January 18th, 2013, 05:11 AM
I was expecting something like "we can divide dev work, ones focusing on 2.x and others on 3.0" or some other idea, the point was to keep an open mind and be tolerant with the other side's ideas... but you simply don't seem to grasp that concept, It's what you want and nothing else, always what you want, all the time.
In that respect I would just say I hoped (thought) you would started working on the "next" SMF because you seemed interested in it.
2.1 at the time was pretty much ready for a kind of beta (at least it wouldn't be worst than other betas/RCs :P), there wasn't much to do except (boring, because it is) bug fixing.
I thought you and Fustrate could start moving things around in that sense and didn't poke you about 2.1 (also because I usually try not to poke anyone asking to do anything because I really believe in this kind of situations you do exactly what you want/like to do).

As I expected, it sounds like a lame excuse...
Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #126, on January 20th, 2013, 01:24 PM »
Quote from Arantor on January 12th, 2013, 09:31 PM
Just off the top of my head, the list of people who were in Cust team but had commit access includes [...], Emanuele
Nope, I did Doc => Dev. :P (I was going to jump on the Cust, though I waited too much and the eager Norv stole me from the purples)
Posted: January 20th, 2013, 01:20 PM
Quote from Arantor on January 13th, 2013, 01:06 AM
Quote
That cannot be said for recent years team jumping, and its a shame. It proves my point that these teams and the desire to be higher up kills the peer mentality, it makes people look more at what they ARE(as in position) than it what they CAN.
This is something I tried to bang a drum about a bit back. I suggested either having a single 'team' badge, or displaying multiple badges for people to reflect the different things they do. Either of those seems to me to be better about focusing on what people can *do* rather than what they *are*.
Proposed (single team) several times me too, but always ignored.

AngelinaBelle

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #127, on January 30th, 2013, 06:56 PM »
Whatever everyone thinks they said, or thinks they understood someone else to say, or meant to say, or got misunderstood to say, the recent rift between SMF or Simple Machines and several SMF devs has happened.

On some issues, I have agreed with what the bulk of the devs seemed to be saying. On some issues, I have agreed with some statements that the bulk of the devs did not seem to agree with.

Going forward, I am not sure I would choose to re-hash some of the arguments I made, and try to explain what I REALLY meant.  would just like to say "If that's how I came off, then I apologize."

I personally feel that it will be great if the SMF project and the Elkarte devs build a good relationship.  I think SMF and Elkarte have a lot to offer each other, and I keep expecting that, one day, everyone will start to understand one another, and have an easier time working more closely together. Just call me Pollyanna.
I'm an SMF doc writer.

Arantor

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #128, on January 30th, 2013, 08:47 PM »
I find it interesting to note that the Wedge developers and the Elkarte developers have a better relationship than either Wedge or Elkarte seem to have with SMF.

AngelinaBelle

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #129, on January 30th, 2013, 09:06 PM »
That is an interesting observation, Arantor.

The "why" of that has been covered pretty thouroughly, I think, from many different perspectives.

nend

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #130, on March 10th, 2013, 05:30 AM »
Hmm, still going on with this back and forth...

Change is needed, getting change is the problem. Values are already cut into stone and IMHO the only solution may be abandonment.

Maybe SM Core will fix this as the forum system alone is out dated. Yeah a few months or years will do that.

These new ideas aren't going to come from us, will maybe. However it is time to pass the torch but currently it doesn't look like there is anyone to catch it. Torch to the floor burn to the ground. Invite change, innovation and new ideas, don't scare the next generation of torch catchers.

This is my opinion, in order for SMF to succeed then it must forget the current ideology of what a forum should be.

Arantor

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nend

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #132, on March 10th, 2013, 05:46 AM »
I have been in incognito for too long I guess. I guess it comes with age, I have the attention span of a 3 year old.

I was interested but SMF lost my interest again when it went the usual way and did the old school route with the latest version. I want to see something better for SMF, back to what I said, set in stone.

Suki

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #133, on March 11th, 2013, 06:59 PM »
For anyone to be able to catch the torch, the old guard needs to let the torch go or at least understand that the torch is not a property they can manipulate at will anymore ;)

smCore is dead.

Arantor

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Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« Reply #134, on March 11th, 2013, 07:00 PM »
smCore is dead unless someone picks it up. Except anyone who does is likely going to start over anyway. So yes, it is dead.