Oracle's post first. I realise what Oracle is trying to do and I want to answer it before I answer Nao's more complex and more involved post. Replying to Oracle, essentially, is replying to the community as a whole before I address specific issues with Nao.
The key is communication and ones ability to air any grievences as they arise and clearly, so the other half fully understands where he or she is coming from.
Not being funny but I'm not sure you've been listening to what I've been saying. A relationship is not healthy when one person actively feels they can't air their grievances because they're afraid of what the other will say, or when they blame themselves for everything even when it isn't necessarily their fault.
The need to sit down and discuss matters in an attempt to resolve issues and to reach compromise is the only way
I tried that. It didn't work, because the times I tried to broach the subject about not being happy about the way things have gone, it's actually gone ignored. For example, Nao's complaining about last year and my absence... well, given that I'd just gone through a breakup after 10 years of being a couple, moving house, and a breakdown, is it really so surprising that I should snap and want a break?
From an outsiders perspective the communicae between you has been considerable, but neither have really attempted to delve further when you sensed something had possibly gone wrong. What happened?.. a grey area was allowed to fester because of a lack of REAL communication between the pair of you. And to this day there is still is no resolve. Sure you appear to have gone your separate ways but deep down is that what you REALLY want?
What's to delve for? I thought I made it perfectly clear what my problem was. I can't work with Nao any more. Whether that's my *fault* or Nao's fault, or a bit of both is absolutely irrelevant. The simple fact is that through everything that's happened I just cannot bring myself to work under him any further, and make no mistake it's not about working alongside him, it hasn't been that for a while.
No, it's not what I *wanted*. What I wanted was to not have to have gone through this in the first place. To have worked alongside Nao as an equal, but however it's perceived by anybody else is irrelevant. I do not consider myself to have been considered as an equal in this partnership. I feel like I'm on the wrong end of a D/s relationship and I couldn't say stop loudly enough to be heard.
The triumphant sense of completness and fullfillment that is unparalleled to anything you have experienced before.
That's the problem. There's not been much of that for a while. I looked back through my last commits, of the last 6 months. Most of what was added was not with a triumphant sense of completeness. Most of them were bug fixes, better than half of them were *my* bugs being fixed because I didn't do it properly the first time around. Of the stuff I actually did that doesn't fall under the bug fix category, they were mostly features that I added because I could see the use of them and it would make Wedge better - but don't mistake that for the fact I *wanted* to implement them. I implemented them for Wedge's benefit.
In fact, of the features I've added, I actually don't see myself using most of them. I added them because I felt Wedge needed them, which is something quite different to 'because I wanted them'. I don't mind this in principle, I did it a lot for SimpleDesk too.
The common denominator in this is WEDGE and it is on the verge of becoming something worthy of your talents.
Well, that's not how I see it. The common denominator is actually SMF. Wedge was born out of a sense of frustration with SMF's development - and 2.1 is no different, honestly - and a shared sense of self-righteous injustice about how we'd been treated by SMF's project team. Even the name comes from that, it's a type of simple machine. And that's another reason we disagreed on something; at the time we were happy for the fork to have a suitable name but it's only recently that Nao mentioned to me about changing the name because apparently not doing so would mean we're catering to ex-SMF people - which is not true, there are people who would change software just because it has more things that they want and wouldn't care about the name. I doubt anyone really cares about where the name vBulletin comes from.
The community appeals to you to try and raise above what has happened.
I would appeal to the community to read what I've been saying, then. You're telling me that I should put my personal matters aside for the good of the project, yet doing so would mean that I would be working my ass off for something I don't just resent but actively dislike... there is nothing healthy about this. Not for me, not for the project. That's where we're at... any contribution I make to Wedge is going to be fuelled with resentment. See, things cannot ever go back to how they were, I won't allow myself to be an emotional doormat, and I won't tolerate effectively being told how to work or that I shouldn't do things.
I've had that problem for months, where I've ACTIVELY felt like I can't touch the front end because I know it'll upset Nao. Seriously. Even something as minor as making the search function offer 'this board' and 'this board (and its sub boards)'. Even though Nao raised it as a bug that it was not how he thought it should work, I was still uncomfortable adding the change because it's something on the front end - and that's not even a thing that's on every page (it's loaded AJAXively)
When I get to the point where I'm *afraid* of adding a single item to a dropdown that's already there because of how it'll affect the rest of the user interface I know something's wrong.
Think of how far youve come and attempt to move forward as an invigorated new team hell bent on proving that 2 guys can succeed doing it alone.
Yesterday going through SMF 2.1 and reapplying stuff like converting to UTF-8 only, I was reminded only too well of how far we'd come. And I remembered what I wanted to do in Wedge, and I remembered more importantly how much I'd already compromised on in the name of the project. There are things I wanted to do since day 1 that I was overruled on and I just let it go because I didn't feel I could say anything. In hindsight I wish I'd spoken up more but I'm not sure anyone would have listened.
If you want to see what happens when two guys can succeed going it alone, don't look at us, we're a bad role model. Look at XenForo. Two guys and a business manager. And they've come a helluva long way in 3 years. Now you can argue that they're paid and all, but the point still stands, they're just two guys who've come a long way in 3 years. Far further than we ever did as far as I'm concerned.
History lesson #1: 3 years ago, I was already working on my own software from scratch. Seriously, I probably even still have the SVN repo somewhere. And the things I was going to do with it... I had unique ideas about ways of doing things - and not one of those has emerged into Wedge, not in three years. Not ONE of the things DragonBB was going to be able to do has materialised. Some of them I realised weren't worth it, but some of them were simply because I don't feel I can introduce them.
This after all was you prime motivation that spurred this project into what it is today and how it could be should both of you follow it through.
History lesson #2: how did Wedge begin again? Well, it started with two guys that had been effectively pushed out of the SMF project. I had just written the first proper version of their helpdesk, Nao had just been vetoed from joining the SMF team proper (and lied to him about it). We were kindred spirits so to speak.
Combine that with the way SMF was going - we remember January 2010 only too well after the management held the project forum hostage from the team unless they signed an agreement. This was when SMF was still in RC times, on the way to RC4, we were genuinely concerned that SMF wasn't even going to get that far and we had grand ideas about being the torch bearers for the spirit of SMF if not the name.
The prime motivation wasn't about seeing how awesome we could make it, it was saving the project. And in hindsight it did to a degree - though SMF is still a long way from redemption. In the very early days it gave them competition and motivation of sorts. It still took them almost a year to get SMF 2.0 out through another RC (and RC5 was mostly about a security issue I told them about, some may remember the fact that I had to work out whether my sense of ethics overrode my distaste for their politics, and ethics won)
Show each other a greater level of compassion and understanding so that you may rejoin forces for the greater good.
Fun fact, did you know at one point live was given access to the Wedge repo for committing? It was removed something like 2 days later, at least judging by the logs and while I can't remember exactly what was said and by whom, I seem to remember it wasn't pretty. I'm seriously not the only one that has been on the wrong end of the attitude here. But if live is up to the task (and he seems to be aiming for it given some of the comments around here), more power to him.
My point, which I am most assuredly getting to, is that I could show Nao all the compassion in the world but I doubt it would make a lot of difference going the other way.
I have made it known on multiple occasions that I was not keen on the constant rewriting. I make it clear that I didn't like committing things knowing they were going to get rewritten, to the point I flat out said that he should just write things on the front end instead because I felt like I was submitting half-assed work all the time.
None of this was commented upon at the time, if I remember rightly. Communication relies on both parties talking and both parties listening. I've done enough talking, and I'm not being heard. And I haven't felt like I've been heard for a while. The problem is, were I to rejoin now, one of two things would likely happen, either things would quickly be how they were (which is unacceptable to me)
Where was that? What message?
I don't know, how about http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290521/#msg290521
for a general commentary about the sidebar, but the real comment was http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290469/#msg290469
where I launch into a variety of exciting reasons not to use middle click, to which your solution was to put it in the tooltip of the 3-bar icon but also made the 3-bar icon itself clickable. While the icon being clickable is a great improvement, there is just not the argument for middle click - which I made *perfectly* clear and you went and did it anyway.
Do I need to..? Do I want to?
Is Wedge everything I need to know about in life?
You don't *need* to. You will be able to find people who can step up to the plate if they believe in the future of the project. I see you have live earmarked as such a candidate and I'm pretty confident in his abilities to handle stuff like security and optimisation as well as the plugin stuff. (No, you're not going to guilt me into returning because of that stuff. If you don't want to learn how a system works, find someone who does. But you're not going to guilt me into returning over that.)
Do you want to? Having a general sense of understanding about these things can be important. It is why I want rid of the Flash based uploader, very badly, because it's a form of vulnerability, and I'm not sure how badly it can be exploited, I've never tried it.
just like I'd never expect you to work too much on the frontend area.
No, you're right, you never expected me to work too much on the front end. Other than giving you feedback about the CSS preparser (which, by definition, I wasn't going to be using very much), of course, judging by how often you asked about it.
The thing is, you didn't just 'not expect me' to touch it, you ended up making me feel uncomfortable about touching anything in the front end.
But the thing is, there were times when you didn't want me to touch the backend either; I made it clear I had very real concerns with the way Aeva's code is structured, as well as usability issues. All of the latter were documented (this thread
) and you even replied to them. Your response was basically, "Well, I've never done it so it's fine for me". Now, I can understand that, you're very passionate about Aeva. Which is why even now, three years on, even after you've given me express permission to change the admin panel, I still never touched it because I felt you wouldn't like the results (the entire admin panel area needed a rewrite to make it consistent with everything else)
And as for the mainline code in Aeva, you said that you wanted me to tell you the issues so you could fix them. While there is a valid argument there, there are valid arguments in the other direction too: I'm never going to learn about a system if I never touch its code. In the real world, it's good practice to have people that don't know a piece of code go work on it so everyone knows at least a bit about everything. For situations like this.
Let's say, hypothetically, I got hit by a bus rather than quit. You wouldn't have a choice but to either learn the system or find someone that could work on it. Like, incidentally, a large chunk of the code we inherited, we can't exactly ask who wrote it, we have to figure it out as we go along. But I felt that even within 'the backend' which was my domain, I couldn't even do that.
I've never been into MySQL... That's the thing with me. To me, a GOOD system is a system that optimizes each of your queries, regardless of how you write them.
Unfortunately reality just doesn't work that way. Same argument applies, if you're not willing to get involved, find someone who is. There are people far better at this stuff than I am, and more than once I was quite willing to offer guidance to help you get an idea about this stuff for the future - it's not just about the queries, table design is important too.
The thing is, the odds of a large forum owner being able to help you optimise queries? Slim. The biggest SMF forum out there cannot do anything with the database to save her life, which is why various people from the SMF community, me included, have been involved with her issues.
You did very little rewrites to it. Only fixes. Most of the time you'd leave them to me, actually...
Yes, there's a reason for that, because you always had to do it one better. Even my fixes tended to feel like half baked stuff because they'd always get rewritten. Then there's stuff like Aeva and Pretty URLs that every time we had an issue, you didn't like the times I looked at bugs, because they were your additions and you didn't like me touching them.
What I'm saying is, that's how I work in a team. I tend to supervise all code and try and make it look unified. My changes were mostly suggestions, or optimizations. I never felt that your code was sacred, and I never asked you to consider mine as sacred either. That was your problem to solve, not mine.
Therein lies the problem. Most of your stuff didn't really need rewriting, it mostly worked as is and I'm not quite the stickler for 'code cleanliness'. Which left my stuff feeling like it was half-assed all the time. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I don't know.
Then you have a strange way of showing it.
"My life fell apart today... Thankfully, I have Wedge to focus on, so I can change my mind...
- Just what I was waiting for! I'm leaving the project!"
It put things in perspective. My issues were so much less important in the scheme of things than yours. And I suppose, I was honest with myself for once.
Yes... But in a friendly manner, right...? Like last year, when you'd pretty much left the project for several weeks... I was in the dark at that time, didn't really know what to expect from you, so I started considering that you had unofficially quit... You didn't, but if you had, at least it would have been better than your last dramatic exit. (I'm not exactly sure why you're still dropping by, either...?!)
You mean the part where I just split up with Liz, had to move house and had a sort of breakdown? The part where I did actually mention all this stuff?
I dropped by to offer up an observation that struck me after a day of hacking away at the SMF 2.1 codebase, that seemed relevant and worth mentioning, especially as it validated something I'd already told you, which was that a friendly fork of Wedge on my side couldn't have worked, at least not in a contributory fashion.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
There comes a point when you can't deal with the failure any more.
I PM'ed him asking why he did that, and got no replies. I guess he felt I had nothing to bring to the table. Nice.
Interesting, I know I fixed that bug in SMF 2.0 where it wouldn't let you send a message to an account under deletion, though I guess I left an exclusion in for admins.
There are some people who would have been here because they're fans of mine, just as there are some people who would have been here because they're fans of yours, and some just following the dream. (I don't know whose dream any more. Someone's dream.) I also know Antes is contributing to 2.1's codebase. Maybe the combination of the two just meant he had nothing to contribute.
And my girlfriend -- she doesn't have as biased an opinion as you might expect of you; still, she thought that you considering our multiple invitations to come visit us, the fact that you never even talked to me was proof that I should have been more careful. And that you weren't very honest with me, and worse, with yourself. :-/
I wasn't honest with either of us, true. Then your bombshell made me realise I had to be honest with both of us. And I was.
Well, there are always people you're not going to name... <_<
I only mention what people tell me if I can *actually* name them and quote them on that. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything to me (or you). You know, like "Pete, I've heard that some people thought you were a jerk and were planning to hurt you... Oh, sorry, I can't tell you whom. I just thought you might want to know. Good night."
On the other hand, these people came to me in confidence. They told me what they thought, frankly, with the knowledge that I wasn't just going to run away and say 'So-and-so says this about you'. I didn't even directly quote anything that was said, choosing to paraphrase. If they wish to make themselves known, they have the option to do so. But that's up to them.
What I want to say is -- saying this kind of thing; it's not nice to me or your 'friends', and it doesn't help.
Last point first, it doesn't help? Maybe not, but I wanted to emphasise that this is not entirely just me going off the deep end.
Not nice to my friends? It's not ideal, no. But in an ideal world, they wouldn't have had to say it, I wouldn't have had to agree, and I wouldn't have had to paraphrase to try and make my point.
Not nice to you? No, no it's not. But it's not a pleasant subject we're dealing with.
Err... By saying I got to choose..?
Okay, so, I choose to keep the current Wedge license. What now?
You go on doing what you do. You don't run quite the same risk of licensing coming back to bite you when Wedge does ship because most things are now quite happily compliant with that licence.
As for me... this is one of the reasons I chose to explore my ideas with SMF rather than Wedge. It means I don't have to be concerned by the licence you choose. Heck you could legitimately have modified the licence to prevent me forking Wedge if you wanted. (Remember, we did originally have exclusions again certain people. I considered the possibility you'd add me to that list.)
Can I change the copyright to just René-Gilles Deberdt, or do I have to keep Wedgeward alive, even though I'm the only one in it? You didn't tell me that... Do I have to add your copyright to all files you wrote?
Legally? Tough question. Wedgeward isn't a legal entity in any fashion so technically it can't have had copyright status (which I'm sure I mentioned in the past).
However, I said the contributions were licensed under BSD. In this respect you can do with my contributions as Dragooon's are - under whatever copyright the whole package to whoever and just leave me in the contributors file. You don't even have to list what features if you like, just under the contributors.
What if you want to make your own fork?
This is why I wasn't going to fork Wedge in my own playground to avoid all that hassle. Yes, it would mean redoing everything that was awesome in Wedge, but since I can't see a situation where I'd be able to fork it both legally and in good conscience, I'd rather redo everything.
How awkward would it be that you have to ask me whether you can re-use some of my code that ended up in one of your features? Etc...
I wasn't going to ask you, because I wasn't going to do that. The only things that I know I can use are my own code and anything expressly licensed in such a way (e.g. BSD), and I still have an SVN repository I can look through to check. Or I can just write it from scratch, learning from my own lessons.
Yes, I'd rather go the long way around and make my own life more difficult to avoid complicating yours any more than necessary, and to avoid tripping on your toes. For example, my project doesn't have Aeva, this is a significant loss in the scheme of things to me, assuming I keep it up.
But since I'll be relicensing it, and it's not released yet, how exactly are people supposed to know what code is BSD and what isn't...?
That's the beauty of it. They don't need to. That's for your benefit, not anyone else's. The code I wrote is thus available to you under BSD - I don't have to make it available to anyone else, nor do I have to worry about it. It's written, put out there into the repo and you're free and clear to use it as you see fit. That's what it means. Since you're the only repo that has it, you can choose whether to distribute it on its own or not. You don't have to, neither do I.
I'll also add -- what is the legal value of the message you just posted? What legal authority could ascertain that *you* posted it, and that I didn't manipulate the database to make it look like you posted it?
Would you like a signed CLA?
We didn't really care about the legal shenanigan because we didn't have anything to lose or gain from it. Once you left the project in a bad mood, so many things became obscure.
I realise that. I'm trying to clean up the damage as best I can - because believe me, there's sufficiently slim chance of a reconciliation that it's not worth worrying about.
Ah, the bbc parser... Remember how I used to hate the fact that you moved them codes to the database without adding an editor somewhere..? Well, if I had to rewrite your code, it's not the first thing I would rewrite...
Go on then. You'll need to deal with the relevant part of the plugin manager too.
- First, you told me you were leaving web software behind for a long time. It only took you one week to come back and, err... Basically tell me that you're forking SMF again?! Whether publicly or privately, doesn't matter... Wedge started out as a private fork. If you want to work on a SMF codebase and be your own boss, why didn't you just agree to my suggestion of splitting the project in two and try to keep it in sync as much as possible (and as we'd like)...?
Yes, that was the plan. I still have a lot of C# to write and to make good on the $4000 I've spent on Unity so far. But I didn't want to waste the last 3 years of Wedge and the last 10 years of PHP. Most of the reason I got my ZCE was to use it with promoting Wedge.
I seriously considered forking Wedge. But the fact that within a day's commits, I went in a direction that screwed up compatibility, I realised that it's a noble goal that just wouldn't work. I mean, I've been shifting between the SMF and Wedge codebases for months and they're quite a bit different but I can keep it straight in my head as to what the differences are at the code level, so I'm only too familiar with the number of problems it causes and to be honest that's just something I didn't want to entertain - and I even tried to tell you that before I left.
Then we have the licensing stuff. Let's say I did fork Wedge and went off and made my thing with it. Let's say I get more popular because of the changes I want to make and my 'gallery' is cited as a major plus factor. How pissed off would you be with that? It'd still be Aeva, but a modified Aeva. Modified a long way. Trampling on your nice thing.
On the other hand, if I forked, I'd inherit the CSS preparser which is very cool but I still don't understand 80% of it and thus it's a feature I can't really use, I certainly can't advertise it and we all know my feelings on trying to keep skins in functioning fashion.
- Each of us worked separately on what we thought would be best to implement in Wedge. That is, if you were to remove all of your contributions overnight, I would certainly be devastated, but that wouldn't mean Wedge has become a piece of shit.
I didn't say it would become a piece of shit. I said it would be in a strange and awkward position. All the wesql stuff would have to be worked on - and while it's doable, it's a big PITA to do again.
Neither of us single-handedly hand Wedge the best SMF fork out there.
Correct. But my point stands: I could have screwed the project over quite badly, though not irredeemably so, by withdrawing my contributions as is my legal right. It's not in the project's interest for me to do, regardless of anything else.
but I'm also of the opinion that it should be released now, and that anything else we want to add later, we can always write a converter to deal with. It's never been impossible.
So release it.
Because I'm well known for my attitude, of course... And you're not. :whistle:
I never got post banned by the SMF team.
I asked you not to flood the thought system with our discussions, and that it was best to centralize them into a single topic. I don't think anyone will complain about that. They're free to ignore this topic, while ignoring the thoughts is harder when you try to follow them all.
That's a valid point. Thing is, that's not what I'm getting at. I feel like even now you're trying to get me to defend my decision in the hopes of my going back on it. That can't happen, my poor willpower aside, because everything's changed. You're not going to trust me in future the way you used to (and rightly so), nor would I stand for the dynamic being what it was before.
I still don't get why you came back to post this... You're free to do it of course, but I fail to see what pushed you to do it. I'm not surprised you came back; I'm only surprised your return seemed to be lacking any reason.
I popped in to post a single observation that I'd encountered that was relevant. It was one of those '*sigh*' moments and I thought it was pertinent to share. And then it exploded like it always does.
So, I'm not sure you'll answer this post either, but just let me tell you that it's hard to follow what's in your mind. You really should take a break. From code, from anything.
Oh wait, that's what you did last month...
I don't really know how to. Even when on the road with Louis, we talked about Wedge every day, about things we thought it needed, things we'd like to see done with it and the dynamics of you and me came up a lot. He called it a "strange relationship" and it dug at me, the more I thought about it, the more I see he was right.
Truth be told, I'm still probably on the wrong side of 'depression' but everyone around me seems to think I'm fine. I'm just not that honest a person, I guess, hiding who I really am inside from everyone. Everyone here thinks I'm a cheerful person with a hint of cynicism. None of them know the truth and I don't feel I could tell them.
2013: I'm not even going to make $5K from it. But it rocks, and I'm proud of it. It'll be buggy when it's out, but it'll still be the best free forum software, and I'll be happy to add this to my résumé once I have to move my ass and find a job. And I suspect you will, too.
Nope. I never added anything I ever did online to my resume, not back in 2009 when I was unofficial lead support for Sphinx search, nor later in 2009 when I was SMF team... in fact, at the last job interview I ever had, December 2009, it wasn't on there though I did explain it in the interview itself to explain what I'd been doing since being laid off in 2008, and used it as an example of trying to deal with management. I didn't get the job, either, but that wasn't because of that.
Well, Wedge is competition to WordPress, technically, so... :^^;:
Protendo is competition, too. Doesn't mean I can't have a good relationship with Bloc. He knows how much I respect his talent (and how disastrous it would be if we worked together... Still, I had to offer him the job, out of principle ;)).
That's just it, though. Wedge isn't really competition to WordPress. Competition implies similar core functionality, and WP and Wedge are a long way apart. When blogs can actually be meaningfully used without a raw DB edit, then I'll consider it competition.
See what I mean..? We can be competitors, that's okay, but you need to be clear about all of this. By keeping everyone in the dark, you're only making things easier for yourself. And yes, I believe I deserve to be told, anyway.
So, when I have an idea that I want to play with, that I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere, that I may just abandon in a few weeks out of boredom or the shine's worn off or something else happens, I'm still supposed to have shouted it from the rooftops and made myself look even more stupid than I already do?
Competition implies that there's actually a project to compete with. Right now all I have is SMF 2.1 with less features and a new title. That's not really competition, is it? Will it still remain that way in time? I don't know.
Whatever you may think of me right now, whatever I may think of you right now, it doesn't change the fact that we both had tons of fun during the last three years, and that I contributed to yours, and that you contributed to mine. It would be just plain sad to leave it at 'we're not compatible as a team' when effectively, we've done great team work for so many years.
I won't argue that we had fun. But you had more fun than I did, and I've been trying to keep it going on my end for the good of the project for a while even though I wasn't having fun. I just tried to keep a stiff upper lip and carried on.
See, as I said in the thoughts, I'm between a rock and a hard place and I'm basically fucked whatever I do.
As I see it, based on everything that's been said:
* work on SMF core - upsets you, means I have to work with Git
* work on Wedge - upsets me for all the reasons I've given
* fork SMF again - upsets you, gives me a lot of work to do
* fork Wedge - hassle because it will very quickly become unsynchronised and go in a vastly different direction
* do nothing - accept defeat and write off everything as a waste of time
Had I not left, my choices would have been different:
* carry on - getting more resentful of the relationship being wrong
* try to raise issues - feeling stupid in so doing, feeling vulnerable in so doing, suspecting nothing would change anyway
* quit - cause hassle in the interim while things get transferred and moved on
As I see it, I did the best thing I could for both me and the project; this way you get rid of someone who is probably capable but flakes out under pressure and has temper issues, and while there's pain in the initial phase, that'll pass. If this were a company, you would have fired my ass by now.
Posted: September 3rd, 2013, 04:44 AM
Let me just clarify one thing: I'm not saying no to a reunion because I don't want to work on Wedge, Wedge is not and in itself never has been the problem as such. I'm saying no to a reunion because 1) I'd hate the working environment and grow more resentful of things, 2) I think Nao would hate it and 3) Wedge is very awesome but I just don't see that where I'm going and where Wedge is going are the same place.