Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Topic started by: Arantor on September 2nd, 2013, 03:50 PM

Title: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 2nd, 2013, 03:50 PM
Well, Nao wanted a topic, so here we go.
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I've never had any problems with writing code that you didn't like, and reverting it...
I don't ever remember this actually happening? On the other hand I can think of several examples where you changed things, I made it very clear I didn't like it, explained why and was completely ignored. Like the sidebar changes in recent times - so much so that the *need* to move PMs out of the menu was apparent because it was the only way to know that I'd have messages (since the PM popup doesn't really count, especially if the PM count gets out of sync, which it does occasionally)
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I see your leaving as an attempt to kill the project. Because you know I'm not comfortable with being the only one to manage it. There are so many areas that I entirely trusted to you, and now I have to learn about them thoroughly-- or just give up about them.
It'll be good for you to develop your skills, actually. Having at least an awareness of security, of optimisation of DB stuff (which, by comparison, is far more of a killer than byte optimisations tend to be), will make you a more rounded developer.

There are so many areas I trusted to you too, but when I had concerns, very often they weren't listened to. And when I did so much as breathe in the direction of those areas, I felt like I was always doing it wrong because every time you'd rewrite the code (how often, seriously, did I rewrite your code?)
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It's not a good feeling, I'll tell you. Also, you were always the one who said Wedge wasn't in a releasable state. Sure it is.
Then release it and let the users be the judge.
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Perhaps you were just looking for a way out, I don't know... But I have to deal with that now.
I have more respect for you than that. If I wanted out, I'd just say so. You even told me that I owed Wedge nothing and could walk away at any time. But it wasn't about 'wanting out' as such. The problem wasn't the fact that Wedge is a black hole where thousands of hours of work go into and for seemingly no reward, the problem is that I began to actively hate the experience of developing for it and I resented putting my time into something that made me feel like that.

I don't know if you've had comments from community members about my attitude and expressing sympathy or not, I daresay you probably have. On the other hand, I've had some comments (from people that, in a shock and surprise move, I'm choosing not to name) that they're surprised we ever hooked up in the first place, because they knew it wouldn't work out (and they're surprised it lasted as long as it did)
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Anyway, I will release it alone, but you didn't make things easier for me.
Yes, because it's all about you, isn't it? On the contrary, I made things easier in several ways - firstly, I cleaned up the licensing situation as best I could. Secondly, I made sure that my own pet project which may or may not go anywhere doesn't have Aeva in it, so it's not like Wedge is losing uniqueness, and thirdly, I said it indirectly but might as well make it more formal: you're absolutely free to use any of my contributions in any fashion you like. I'm hereby granting an irrevocable licence to Wedge (or whatever the project becomes called) for any contributions I made, code, documentation, anything, under the BSD licence. If you want to relicence it, fine. But it's there.

If I wanted to kill the project, there are ways I could have done that, and far more effectively. I could have totally stitched you up, because I could have made the threat that nearly killed SMF in 2010 and I would have had just as much legal right to do, because I could have demanded all my contributions be removed because I still hold my copyright to them, which would have left you in a very strange and awkward position, as wesql would have had to be removed or at least reverted back to $smcFunc, along with removing the warning system, the ban system, the plugin system, the language editor, the rewrites of the bbc parser to use the database... the list goes on.


The bottom line is that I finally had enough of dealing with your attitude and I can't do it any more. Even now I feel like I'm forced to justify my decisions to you or explain them - I don't owe you explanations. I certainly don't owe you justifications. But here we are.

As for why I didn't make a topic, it's because it was a couple of lines of throwaway comment that didn't need to be a topic, more a simple observation that got sidetracked and blown entirely out of proportion yet again.

My pet project is experimental, it may not go anywhere but while I'm concentrating on C#, I'd like to feel that the last 10 years honing PHP and 3 years on Wedge wasn't a total waste.[1]

Will my pet project be competition? Not really. It's more really poor man's competition for WordPress than Wedge, but you believe what you want to believe, you usually do.
 1. Rule 5: Don't waste good.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 2nd, 2013, 05:21 PM
Quote from Arantor on September 2nd, 2013, 03:50 PM
I don't ever remember this actually happening? On the other hand I can think of several examples where you changed things, I made it very clear I didn't like it, explained why and was completely ignored.
I can only think of the PM popup thing...
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Like the sidebar changes in recent times
Where was that? What message?
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so much so that the *need* to move PMs out of the menu was apparent because it was the only way to know that I'd have messages (since the PM popup doesn't really count, especially if the PM count gets out of sync, which it does occasionally)
I never intended to leave it this way... Moving the menu to the side made more sense to me on a mobile environment, but it also had a few items I wanted to see elsewhere. My plan at that point was to simply 'separate' any menu entry that had a 'note' class in it, to a special menu entry that would show up in the header. I'd even written some preliminary code, but wasn't happy with the single menu item taking too much space in the header, but I was too busy elsewhere to do something about it, and then you came up with the PM menu next to the Notifications menu, so I reverted my changes.
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It'll be good for you to develop your skills, actually.
Do I need to..? Do I want to?
Is Wedge everything I need to know about in life?
It's a codebase with 100+ thousands of lines, even with two people dealing with two different sides of it (frontend and backend), it STILL made for thousands of line to maintain each... Believe me, I already had enough on my plate, and certainly didn't want to know more than the basics from your side, just like I'd never expect you to work too much on the frontend area.
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Having at least an awareness of security, of optimisation of DB stuff (which, by comparison, is far more of a killer than byte optimisations tend to be), will make you a more rounded developer.
I've never been into MySQL... That's the thing with me. To me, a GOOD system is a system that optimizes each of your queries, regardless of how you write them. I understand most of the subtilities between 1-to-many and many-to-many, things like that, things that really make sense to optimize, but other than that... I'm not even going to try the wizardry areas. If there's a performance problem on a large forum, then perhaps the owner can help me optimize some of the queries. If no one uses Wedge on a large forum, then it never becomes a problem to begin with, so...
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There are so many areas I trusted to you too, but when I had concerns, very often they weren't listened to. And when I did so much as breathe in the direction of those areas, I felt like I was always doing it wrong because every time you'd rewrite the code (how often, seriously, did I rewrite your code?)
You did very little rewrites to it. Only fixes. Most of the time you'd leave them to me, actually...
I'm not saying.
What I'm saying is, that's how I work in a team. I tend to supervise all code and try and make it look unified. My changes were mostly suggestions, or optimizations. I never felt that your code was sacred, and I never asked you to consider mine as sacred either. That was your problem to solve, not mine.
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I have more respect for you than that.
Then you have a strange way of showing it.
"My life fell apart today... Thankfully, I have Wedge to focus on, so I can change my mind...
- Just what I was waiting for! I'm leaving the project!"

Is it like in these books where they tell you that then nerve system is made in a way that if you're hurting somewhere, you should pinch another area and it'll lessen the pain? Nice of you! :angel:
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If I wanted out, I'd just say so. You even told me that I owed Wedge nothing and could walk away at any time.
Yes... But in a friendly manner, right...? Like last year, when you'd pretty much left the project for several weeks... I was in the dark at that time, didn't really know what to expect from you, so I started considering that you had unofficially quit... You didn't, but if you had, at least it would have been better than your last dramatic exit. (I'm not exactly sure why you're still dropping by, either...?!)
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But it wasn't about 'wanting out' as such. The problem wasn't the fact that Wedge is a black hole where thousands of hours of work go into and for seemingly no reward, the problem is that I began to actively hate the experience of developing for it and I resented putting my time into something that made me feel like that.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
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I don't know if you've had comments from community members about my attitude and expressing sympathy or not,
Had 'Antes' leave the forum and putting his account up for deletion... I PM'ed him asking why he did that, and got no replies. I guess he felt I had nothing to bring to the table. Nice.
Apart from that, nothing except the public comments about people being sad that you left the project. And my girlfriend -- she doesn't have as biased an opinion as you might expect of you; still, she thought that you considering our multiple invitations to come visit us, the fact that you never even talked to me was proof that I should have been more careful. And that you weren't very honest with me, and worse, with yourself. :-/
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I daresay you probably have. On the other hand, I've had some comments (from people that, in a shock and surprise move, I'm choosing not to name) that they're surprised we ever hooked up in the first place, because they knew it wouldn't work out (and they're surprised it lasted as long as it did)
Well, there are always people you're not going to name... <_<
I only mention what people tell me if I can *actually* name them and quote them on that. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything to me (or you). You know, like "Pete, I've heard that some people thought you were a jerk and were planning to hurt you... Oh, sorry, I can't tell you whom. I just thought you might want to know. Good night."

What I want to say is -- saying this kind of thing; it's not nice to me or your 'friends', and it doesn't help.
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Yes, because it's all about you, isn't it? On the contrary, I made things easier in several ways - firstly, I cleaned up the licensing situation as best I could.
Err... By saying I got to choose..?
Okay, so, I choose to keep the current Wedge license. What now?
Can I change the copyright to just René-Gilles Deberdt, or do I have to keep Wedgeward alive, even though I'm the only one in it? You didn't tell me that... Do I have to add your copyright to all files you wrote? What ratio of Arantor code should I take into account? Or can I just credit you in contributors.txt and the credits page and be done with? What if you want to make your own fork? How awkward would it be that you have to ask me whether you can re-use some of my code that ended up in one of your features? Etc...
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Secondly, I made sure that my own pet project which may or may not go anywhere doesn't have Aeva in it, so it's not like Wedge is losing uniqueness, and thirdly, I said it indirectly but might as well make it more formal: you're absolutely free to use any of my contributions in any fashion you like. I'm hereby granting an irrevocable licence to Wedge (or whatever the project becomes called) for any contributions I made, code, documentation, anything, under the BSD licence. If you want to relicence it, fine. But it's there.
Duly noted. But since I'll be relicensing it, and it's not released yet, how exactly are people supposed to know what code is BSD and what isn't...?
Wedge will probably end up with an OSI license in the future, but right now it's still something fragile.
I'll also add -- what is the legal value of the message you just posted? What legal authority could ascertain that *you* posted it, and that I didn't manipulate the database to make it look like you posted it?
See, that's what I mean. Working on Wedge together for three years was simpler than you think -- because of the mutual trust. We didn't really care about the legal shenanigan because we didn't have anything to lose or gain from it. Once you left the project in a bad mood, so many things became obscure.
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If I wanted to kill the project, there are ways I could have done that, and far more effectively. I could have totally stitched you up, because I could have made the threat that nearly killed SMF in 2010 and I would have had just as much legal right to do, because I could have demanded all my contributions be removed because I still hold my copyright to them, which would have left you in a very strange and awkward position, as wesql would have had to be removed or at least reverted back to $smcFunc, along with removing the warning system, the ban system, the plugin system, the language editor, the rewrites of the bbc parser to use the database... the list goes on.
Ah, the bbc parser... Remember how I used to hate the fact that you moved them codes to the database without adding an editor somewhere..? Well, if I had to rewrite your code, it's not the first thing I would rewrite... ;)

Anyway, here's what I have in my hands:
- First, you told me you were leaving web software behind for a long time. It only took you one week to come back and, err... Basically tell me that you're forking SMF again?! Whether publicly or privately, doesn't matter... Wedge started out as a private fork. If you want to work on a SMF codebase and be your own boss, why didn't you just agree to my suggestion of splitting the project in two and try to keep it in sync as much as possible (and as we'd like)...?
- Each of us worked separately on what we thought would be best to implement in Wedge. That is, if you were to remove all of your contributions overnight, I would certainly be devastated, but that wouldn't mean Wedge has become a piece of shit. Indeed it still has, at that point, all of the new features I wanted it to have... And I can rewrite whatever you took away that I absolutely need, such as wesql. There aren't 30 ways to write a static MySQL library anyway... I wouldn't rewrite the plugin system either, and that would be a loss to users, but it's still not a blow Wedge couldn't recover from. Neither of us single-handedly hand Wedge the best SMF fork out there. The both of us brought our best to it, and we both had different things to add to it. I'm still thrilled by how much we managed to do in three years, but I'm also of the opinion that it should be released now, and that anything else we want to add later, we can always write a converter to deal with. It's never been impossible.
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The bottom line is that I finally had enough of dealing with your attitude
Because I'm well known for my attitude, of course... And you're not. :whistle:
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and I can't do it any more. Even now I feel like I'm forced to justify my decisions to you or explain them - I don't owe you explanations. I certainly don't owe you justifications. But here we are.
I asked you not to flood the thought system with our discussions, and that it was best to centralize them into a single topic. I don't think anyone will complain about that. They're free to ignore this topic, while ignoring the thoughts is harder when you try to follow them all.
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As for why I didn't make a topic, it's because it was a couple of lines of throwaway comment that didn't need to be a topic, more a simple observation that got sidetracked and blown entirely out of proportion yet again.
I still don't get why you came back to post this... You're free to do it of course, but I fail to see what pushed you to do it. I'm not surprised you came back; I'm only surprised your return seemed to be lacking any reason. And we only end up re-discussing the same things over and over again -- and the last few times, you ended the conversation before I could know more about your reasons. So, I'm not sure you'll answer this post either, but just let me tell you that it's hard to follow what's in your mind. You really should take a break. From code, from anything.
Oh wait, that's what you did last month...
Then maybe you should stop taking breaks. :geek: :ph34r:
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My pet project is experimental, it may not go anywhere but while I'm concentrating on C#, I'd like to feel that the last 10 years honing PHP and 3 years on Wedge wasn't a total waste.
Oh, that -- I can perfectly understand!
Even I am in a similar situation, I guess...
1997: made Kyodai Mahjongg, in Delphi (Pascal)-- from the same guy who made C# later.
2005: started work on implementing an online ladder system for Kyodai Mahjongg. Started learning PHP to "get it done". Failed to make it work. Tried harder at learning PHP. Finally understood how it works. Got hooked.
2006: stopped work on Kyodai Mahjongg. Never did finish that ladder system... Worked on my websites instead.
2008: got really, really super-involved in forum development.
2010: after making a measly $5K from my 2-years dev work on Aeva Media, started Wedge with you...
2013: I'm not even going to make $5K from it. But it rocks, and I'm proud of it. It'll be buggy when it's out, but it'll still be the best free forum software, and I'll be happy to add this to my résumé once I have to move my ass and find a job. And I suspect you will, too.
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Will my pet project be competition? Not really. It's more really poor man's competition for WordPress than Wedge, but you believe what you want to believe, you usually do.
Well, Wedge is competition to WordPress, technically, so... :^^;:
Protendo is competition, too. Doesn't mean I can't have a good relationship with Bloc. He knows how much I respect his talent (and how disastrous it would be if we worked together... Still, I had to offer him the job, out of principle ;)).

See what I mean..? We can be competitors, that's okay, but you need to be clear about all of this. By keeping everyone in the dark, you're only making things easier for yourself. And yes, I believe I deserve to be told, anyway. Whatever you may think of me right now, whatever I may think of you right now, it doesn't change the fact that we both had tons of fun during the last three years, and that I contributed to yours, and that you contributed to mine. It would be just plain sad to leave it at 'we're not compatible as a team' when effectively, we've done great team work for so many years.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Oracle on September 3rd, 2013, 01:56 AM
This is a lovers quarrel guys!

Its a well known fact that two people cannot co-exist without argument @ some time or other. The key is communication and ones ability to air any grievences as they arise and clearly, so the other half fully understands where he or she is coming from. The need to sit down and discuss matters in an attempt to resolve issues and to reach compromise is the only way. Absorbing the brunt of ill feeling or maintaining a distance doesnt cut it on its own merit. One must go the extra mile and spell out whats on their mind if the status quo is sought.

From an outsiders perspective the communicae between you has been considerable, but neither have really attempted to delve further when you sensed something had possibly gone wrong. What happened?.. a grey area was allowed to fester because of a lack of REAL communication between the pair of you. And to this day there is still is no resolve. Sure you appear to have gone your separate ways but deep down is that what you REALLY want?

A great project and one in which both your hearts and souls were put into. You've suffered grief in your personal lives which is testiment that life is not always a bed of roses but oh what a feeling when things comes together. The triumphant sense of completness and fullfillment that is unparalleled to anything you have experienced before.

The common denominator in this is WEDGE and it is on the verge of becoming something worthy of your talents. Creating the benchmark software you dreamt of would be some feat and theres no denying it. Would be a crying shame to see it end this way.

The community appeals to you to try and raise above what has happened. Think of how far youve come and attempt to move forward as an invigorated new team hell bent on proving that 2 guys can succeed doing it alone. This after all was you prime motivation that spurred this project into what it is today and how it could be should both of you follow it through.

Show each other a greater level of compassion and understanding so that you may rejoin forces for the greater good.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 3rd, 2013, 04:46 AM
Oracle's post first. I realise what Oracle is trying to do and I want to answer it before I answer Nao's more complex and more involved post. Replying to Oracle, essentially, is replying to the community as a whole before I address specific issues with Nao.
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The key is communication and ones ability to air any grievences as they arise and clearly, so the other half fully understands where he or she is coming from.
Not being funny but I'm not sure you've been listening to what I've been saying. A relationship is not healthy when one person actively feels they can't air their grievances because they're afraid of what the other will say, or when they blame themselves for everything even when it isn't necessarily their fault.
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The need to sit down and discuss matters in an attempt to resolve issues and to reach compromise is the only way
I tried that. It didn't work, because the times I tried to broach the subject about not being happy about the way things have gone, it's actually gone ignored. For example, Nao's complaining about last year and my absence... well, given that I'd just gone through a breakup after 10 years of being a couple, moving house, and a breakdown, is it really so surprising that I should snap and want a break?
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From an outsiders perspective the communicae between you has been considerable, but neither have really attempted to delve further when you sensed something had possibly gone wrong. What happened?.. a grey area was allowed to fester because of a lack of REAL communication between the pair of you. And to this day there is still is no resolve. Sure you appear to have gone your separate ways but deep down is that what you REALLY want?
What's to delve for? I thought I made it perfectly clear what my problem was. I can't work with Nao any more. Whether that's my *fault* or Nao's fault, or a bit of both is absolutely irrelevant. The simple fact is that through everything that's happened I just cannot bring myself to work under him any further, and make no mistake it's not about working alongside him, it hasn't been that for a while.

No, it's not what I *wanted*. What I wanted was to not have to have gone through this in the first place. To have worked alongside Nao as an equal, but however it's perceived by anybody else is irrelevant. I do not consider myself to have been considered as an equal in this partnership. I feel like I'm on the wrong end of a D/s relationship and I couldn't say stop loudly enough to be heard.
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The triumphant sense of completness and fullfillment that is unparalleled to anything you have experienced before.
That's the problem. There's not been much of that for a while. I looked back through my last commits, of the last 6 months. Most of what was added was not with a triumphant sense of completeness. Most of them were bug fixes, better than half of them were *my* bugs being fixed because I didn't do it properly the first time around. Of the stuff I actually did that doesn't fall under the bug fix category, they were mostly features that I added because I could see the use of them and it would make Wedge better - but don't mistake that for the fact I *wanted* to implement them. I implemented them for Wedge's benefit.

In fact, of the features I've added, I actually don't see myself using most of them. I added them because I felt Wedge needed them, which is something quite different to 'because I wanted them'. I don't mind this in principle, I did it a lot for SimpleDesk too.
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The common denominator in this is WEDGE and it is on the verge of becoming something worthy of your talents.
Well, that's not how I see it. The common denominator is actually SMF. Wedge was born out of a sense of frustration with SMF's development - and 2.1 is no different, honestly - and a shared sense of self-righteous injustice about how we'd been treated by SMF's project team. Even the name comes from that, it's a type of simple machine. And that's another reason we disagreed on something; at the time we were happy for the fork to have a suitable name but it's only recently that Nao mentioned to me about changing the name because apparently not doing so would mean we're catering to ex-SMF people - which is not true, there are people who would change software just because it has more things that they want and wouldn't care about the name. I doubt anyone really cares about where the name vBulletin comes from.
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The community appeals to you to try and raise above what has happened.
I would appeal to the community to read what I've been saying, then. You're telling me that I should put my personal matters aside for the good of the project, yet doing so would mean that I would be working my ass off for something I don't just resent but actively dislike... there is nothing healthy about this. Not for me, not for the project. That's where we're at... any contribution I make to Wedge is going to be fuelled with resentment. See, things cannot ever go back to how they were, I won't allow myself to be an emotional doormat, and I won't tolerate effectively being told how to work or that I shouldn't do things.

You'll see throughout this forum that all the time I work on the backend - which includes the admin panel - it's absolutely fine, but woe betide me if I want to put something visible on the front end. See, alongside the stuff around rewriting the JavaScript, the comment about how Nao now has to rethink how mobile works didn't go unnoticed... here's the thing: if I have an idea, I want to implement it. I thought that was a particularly good idea but shit, it means that other things have to be rethought.

I've had that problem for months, where I've ACTIVELY felt like I can't touch the front end because I know it'll upset Nao. Seriously. Even something as minor as making the search function offer 'this board' and 'this board (and its sub boards)'. Even though Nao raised it as a bug that it was not how he thought it should work, I was still uncomfortable adding the change because it's something on the front end - and that's not even a thing that's on every page (it's loaded AJAXively)

When I get to the point where I'm *afraid* of adding a single item to a dropdown that's already there because of how it'll affect the rest of the user interface I know something's wrong.
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Think of how far youve come and attempt to move forward as an invigorated new team hell bent on proving that 2 guys can succeed doing it alone.
Yesterday going through SMF 2.1 and reapplying stuff like converting to UTF-8 only, I was reminded only too well of how far we'd come. And I remembered what I wanted to do in Wedge, and I remembered more importantly how much I'd already compromised on in the name of the project. There are things I wanted to do since day 1 that I was overruled on and I just let it go because I didn't feel I could say anything. In hindsight I wish I'd spoken up more but I'm not sure anyone would have listened.

If you want to see what happens when two guys can succeed going it alone, don't look at us, we're a bad role model. Look at XenForo. Two guys and a business manager. And they've come a helluva long way in 3 years. Now you can argue that they're paid and all, but the point still stands, they're just two guys who've come a long way in 3 years. Far further than we ever did as far as I'm concerned.

History lesson #1: 3 years ago, I was already working on my own software from scratch. Seriously, I probably even still have the SVN repo somewhere. And the things I was going to do with it... I had unique ideas about ways of doing things - and not one of those has emerged into Wedge, not in three years. Not ONE of the things DragonBB was going to be able to do has materialised. Some of them I realised weren't worth it, but some of them were simply because I don't feel I can introduce them.
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This after all was you prime motivation that spurred this project into what it is today and how it could be should both of you follow it through.
History lesson #2: how did Wedge begin again? Well, it started with two guys that had been effectively pushed out of the SMF project. I had just written the first proper version of their helpdesk, Nao had just been vetoed from joining the SMF team proper (and lied to him about it). We were kindred spirits so to speak.

Combine that with the way SMF was going - we remember January 2010 only too well after the management held the project forum hostage from the team unless they signed an agreement. This was when SMF was still in RC times, on the way to RC4, we were genuinely concerned that SMF wasn't even going to get that far and we had grand ideas about being the torch bearers for the spirit of SMF if not the name.

The prime motivation wasn't about seeing how awesome we could make it, it was saving the project. And in hindsight it did to a degree - though SMF is still a long way from redemption. In the very early days it gave them competition and motivation of sorts. It still took them almost a year to get SMF 2.0 out through another RC (and RC5 was mostly about a security issue I told them about, some may remember the fact that I had to work out whether my sense of ethics overrode my distaste for their politics, and ethics won)
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Show each other a greater level of compassion and understanding so that you may rejoin forces for the greater good.
Fun fact, did you know at one point live was given access to the Wedge repo for committing? It was removed something like 2 days later, at least judging by the logs[1] and while I can't remember exactly what was said and by whom, I seem to remember it wasn't pretty. I'm seriously not the only one that has been on the wrong end of the attitude here. But if live is up to the task (and he seems to be aiming for it given some of the comments around here), more power to him.

My point, which I am most assuredly getting to, is that I could show Nao all the compassion in the world but I doubt it would make a lot of difference going the other way.

I have made it known on multiple occasions that I was not keen on the constant rewriting. I make it clear that I didn't like committing things knowing they were going to get rewritten, to the point I flat out said that he should just write things on the front end instead because I felt like I was submitting half-assed work all the time.

None of this was commented upon at the time, if I remember rightly. Communication relies on both parties talking and both parties listening. I've done enough talking, and I'm not being heard. And I haven't felt like I've been heard for a while. The problem is, were I to rejoin now, one of two things would likely happen, either things would quickly be how they were (which is unacceptable to me)


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Where was that? What message?
I don't know, how about http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290521/#msg290521 for a general commentary about the sidebar, but the real comment was http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290469/#msg290469 where I launch into a variety of exciting reasons not to use middle click, to which your solution was to put it in the tooltip of the 3-bar icon but also made the 3-bar icon itself clickable.[2] While the icon being clickable is a great improvement, there is just not the argument for middle click - which I made *perfectly* clear and you went and did it anyway.
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Do I need to..? Do I want to?
Is Wedge everything I need to know about in life?
You don't *need* to. You will be able to find people who can step up to the plate if they believe in the future of the project. I see you have live earmarked as such a candidate and I'm pretty confident in his abilities to handle stuff like security and optimisation as well as the plugin stuff. (No, you're not going to guilt me into returning because of that stuff. If you don't want to learn how a system works, find someone who does. But you're not going to guilt me into returning over that.)

Do you want to? Having a general sense of understanding about these things can be important. It is why I want rid of the Flash based uploader, very badly, because it's a form of vulnerability, and I'm not sure how badly it can be exploited, I've never tried it.
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just like I'd never expect you to work too much on the frontend area.
No, you're right, you never expected me to work too much on the front end. Other than giving you feedback about the CSS preparser (which, by definition, I wasn't going to be using very much), of course, judging by how often you asked about it.

The thing is, you didn't just 'not expect me' to touch it, you ended up making me feel uncomfortable about touching anything in the front end.

But the thing is, there were times when you didn't want me to touch the backend either; I made it clear I had very real concerns with the way Aeva's code is structured, as well as usability issues. All of the latter were documented (this thread(http://wedge.org/pub/8223/posting-from-mobile-including-aeva/msg290661/#msg290661)) and you even replied to them. Your response was basically, "Well, I've never done it so it's fine for me". Now, I can understand that, you're very passionate about Aeva. Which is why even now, three years on, even after you've given me express permission to change the admin panel, I still never touched it because I felt you wouldn't like the results (the entire admin panel area needed a rewrite to make it consistent with everything else)

And as for the mainline code in Aeva, you said that you wanted me to tell you the issues so you could fix them. While there is a valid argument there, there are valid arguments in the other direction too: I'm never going to learn about a system if I never touch its code. In the real world, it's good practice to have people that don't know a piece of code go work on it so everyone knows at least a bit about everything. For situations like this.

Let's say, hypothetically, I got hit by a bus rather than quit. You wouldn't have a choice but to either learn the system or find someone that could work on it. Like, incidentally, a large chunk of the code we inherited, we can't exactly ask who wrote it, we have to figure it out as we go along. But I felt that even within 'the backend' which was my domain, I couldn't even do that.
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I've never been into MySQL... That's the thing with me. To me, a GOOD system is a system that optimizes each of your queries, regardless of how you write them.
Unfortunately reality just doesn't work that way. Same argument applies, if you're not willing to get involved, find someone who is. There are people far better at this stuff than I am, and more than once I was quite willing to offer guidance to help you get an idea about this stuff for the future - it's not just about the queries, table design is important too.

The thing is, the odds of a large forum owner being able to help you optimise queries? Slim. The biggest SMF forum out there cannot do anything with the database to save her life, which is why various people from the SMF community, me included, have been involved with her issues.
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You did very little rewrites to it. Only fixes. Most of the time you'd leave them to me, actually...
Yes, there's a reason for that, because you always had to do it one better. Even my fixes tended to feel like half baked stuff because they'd always get rewritten. Then there's stuff like Aeva and Pretty URLs that every time we had an issue, you didn't like the times I looked at bugs, because they were your additions and you didn't like me touching them.
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What I'm saying is, that's how I work in a team. I tend to supervise all code and try and make it look unified. My changes were mostly suggestions, or optimizations. I never felt that your code was sacred, and I never asked you to consider mine as sacred either. That was your problem to solve, not mine.
Therein lies the problem. Most of your stuff didn't really need rewriting, it mostly worked as is and I'm not quite the stickler for 'code cleanliness'. Which left my stuff feeling like it was half-assed all the time. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I don't know.
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Then you have a strange way of showing it.
"My life fell apart today... Thankfully, I have Wedge to focus on, so I can change my mind...
- Just what I was waiting for! I'm leaving the project!"
It put things in perspective. My issues were so much less important in the scheme of things than yours. And I suppose, I was honest with myself for once.
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Yes... But in a friendly manner, right...? Like last year, when you'd pretty much left the project for several weeks... I was in the dark at that time, didn't really know what to expect from you, so I started considering that you had unofficially quit... You didn't, but if you had, at least it would have been better than your last dramatic exit. (I'm not exactly sure why you're still dropping by, either...?!)
You mean the part where I just split up with Liz, had to move house and had a sort of breakdown? The part where I did actually mention all this stuff?

I dropped by to offer up an observation that struck me after a day of hacking away at the SMF 2.1 codebase, that seemed relevant and worth mentioning, especially as it validated something I'd already told you, which was that a friendly fork of Wedge on my side couldn't have worked, at least not in a contributory fashion.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
There comes a point when you can't deal with the failure any more.
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I PM'ed him asking why he did that, and got no replies. I guess he felt I had nothing to bring to the table. Nice.
Interesting, I know I fixed that bug in SMF 2.0 where it wouldn't let you send a message to an account under deletion, though I guess I left an exclusion in for admins.

There are some people who would have been here because they're fans of mine, just as there are some people who would have been here because they're fans of yours, and some just following the dream. (I don't know whose dream any more. Someone's dream.) I also know Antes is contributing to 2.1's codebase. Maybe the combination of the two just meant he had nothing to contribute.
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And my girlfriend -- she doesn't have as biased an opinion as you might expect of you; still, she thought that you considering our multiple invitations to come visit us, the fact that you never even talked to me was proof that I should have been more careful. And that you weren't very honest with me, and worse, with yourself. :-/
I wasn't honest with either of us, true. Then your bombshell made me realise I had to be honest with both of us. And I was.
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Well, there are always people you're not going to name... <_<
I only mention what people tell me if I can *actually* name them and quote them on that. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything to me (or you). You know, like "Pete, I've heard that some people thought you were a jerk and were planning to hurt you... Oh, sorry, I can't tell you whom. I just thought you might want to know. Good night."
On the other hand, these people came to me in confidence. They told me what they thought, frankly, with the knowledge that I wasn't just going to run away and say 'So-and-so says this about you'. I didn't even directly quote anything that was said, choosing to paraphrase. If they wish to make themselves known, they have the option to do so. But that's up to them.
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What I want to say is -- saying this kind of thing; it's not nice to me or your 'friends', and it doesn't help.
Last point first, it doesn't help? Maybe not, but I wanted to emphasise that this is not entirely just me going off the deep end.

Not nice to my friends? It's not ideal, no. But in an ideal world, they wouldn't have had to say it, I wouldn't have had to agree, and I wouldn't have had to paraphrase to try and make my point.

Not nice to you? No, no it's not. But it's not a pleasant subject we're dealing with.
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Err... By saying I got to choose..?
Okay, so, I choose to keep the current Wedge license. What now?
You go on doing what you do. You don't run quite the same risk of licensing coming back to bite you when Wedge does ship because most things are now quite happily compliant with that licence.

As for me... this is one of the reasons I chose to explore my ideas with SMF rather than Wedge. It means I don't have to be concerned by the licence you choose. Heck you could legitimately have modified the licence to prevent me forking Wedge if you wanted. (Remember, we did originally have exclusions again certain people. I considered the possibility you'd add me to that list.)
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Can I change the copyright to just René-Gilles Deberdt, or do I have to keep Wedgeward alive, even though I'm the only one in it? You didn't tell me that... Do I have to add your copyright to all files you wrote?
Legally? Tough question. Wedgeward isn't a legal entity in any fashion so technically it can't have had copyright status (which I'm sure I mentioned in the past).

However, I said the contributions were licensed under BSD. In this respect you can do with my contributions as Dragooon's are - under whatever copyright the whole package to whoever and just leave me in the contributors file. You don't even have to list what features if you like, just under the contributors.
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What if you want to make your own fork?
This is why I wasn't going to fork Wedge in my own playground to avoid all that hassle. Yes, it would mean redoing everything that was awesome in Wedge, but since I can't see a situation where I'd be able to fork it both legally and in good conscience, I'd rather redo everything.
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How awkward would it be that you have to ask me whether you can re-use some of my code that ended up in one of your features? Etc...
I wasn't going to ask you, because I wasn't going to do that. The only things that I know I can use are my own code and anything expressly licensed in such a way (e.g. BSD), and I still have an SVN repository I can look through to check. Or I can just write it from scratch, learning from my own lessons.

Yes, I'd rather go the long way around and make my own life more difficult to avoid complicating yours any more than necessary, and to avoid tripping on your toes. For example, my project doesn't have Aeva, this is a significant loss in the scheme of things to me, assuming I keep it up.
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But since I'll be relicensing it, and it's not released yet, how exactly are people supposed to know what code is BSD and what isn't...?
That's the beauty of it. They don't need to. That's for your benefit, not anyone else's. The code I wrote is thus available to you under BSD - I don't have to make it available to anyone else, nor do I have to worry about it. It's written, put out there into the repo and you're free and clear to use it as you see fit. That's what it means. Since you're the only repo that has it, you can choose whether to distribute it on its own or not. You don't have to, neither do I.
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I'll also add -- what is the legal value of the message you just posted? What legal authority could ascertain that *you* posted it, and that I didn't manipulate the database to make it look like you posted it?
Would you like a signed CLA?
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We didn't really care about the legal shenanigan because we didn't have anything to lose or gain from it. Once you left the project in a bad mood, so many things became obscure.
I realise that. I'm trying to clean up the damage as best I can - because believe me, there's sufficiently slim chance of a reconciliation that it's not worth worrying about.
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Ah, the bbc parser... Remember how I used to hate the fact that you moved them codes to the database without adding an editor somewhere..? Well, if I had to rewrite your code, it's not the first thing I would rewrite...
Go on then. You'll need to deal with the relevant part of the plugin manager too.
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- First, you told me you were leaving web software behind for a long time. It only took you one week to come back and, err... Basically tell me that you're forking SMF again?! Whether publicly or privately, doesn't matter... Wedge started out as a private fork. If you want to work on a SMF codebase and be your own boss, why didn't you just agree to my suggestion of splitting the project in two and try to keep it in sync as much as possible (and as we'd like)...?
Yes, that was the plan. I still have a lot of C# to write and to make good on the $4000 I've spent on Unity so far. But I didn't want to waste the last 3 years of Wedge and the last 10 years of PHP. Most of the reason I got my ZCE was to use it with promoting Wedge.

I seriously considered forking Wedge. But the fact that within a day's commits, I went in a direction that screwed up compatibility, I realised that it's a noble goal that just wouldn't work. I mean, I've been shifting between the SMF and Wedge codebases for months and they're quite a bit different but I can keep it straight in my head as to what the differences are at the code level, so I'm only too familiar with the number of problems it causes and to be honest that's just something I didn't want to entertain - and I even tried to tell you that before I left.

Then we have the licensing stuff. Let's say I did fork Wedge and went off and made my thing with it. Let's say I get more popular because of the changes I want to make and my 'gallery' is cited as a major plus factor. How pissed off would you be with that? It'd still be Aeva, but a modified Aeva. Modified a long way. Trampling on your nice thing.

On the other hand, if I forked, I'd inherit the CSS preparser which is very cool but I still don't understand 80% of it and thus it's a feature I can't really use, I certainly can't advertise it and we all know my feelings on trying to keep skins in functioning fashion.
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- Each of us worked separately on what we thought would be best to implement in Wedge. That is, if you were to remove all of your contributions overnight, I would certainly be devastated, but that wouldn't mean Wedge has become a piece of shit.
I didn't say it would become a piece of shit. I said it would be in a strange and awkward position. All the wesql stuff would have to be worked on - and while it's doable, it's a big PITA to do again.
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Neither of us single-handedly hand Wedge the best SMF fork out there.
Correct. But my point stands: I could have screwed the project over quite badly, though not irredeemably so, by withdrawing my contributions as is my legal right. It's not in the project's interest for me to do, regardless of anything else.
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but I'm also of the opinion that it should be released now, and that anything else we want to add later, we can always write a converter to deal with. It's never been impossible.
So release it.
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Because I'm well known for my attitude, of course... And you're not. :whistle:
I never got post banned by the SMF team.
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I asked you not to flood the thought system with our discussions, and that it was best to centralize them into a single topic. I don't think anyone will complain about that. They're free to ignore this topic, while ignoring the thoughts is harder when you try to follow them all.
That's a valid point. Thing is, that's not what I'm getting at. I feel like even now you're trying to get me to defend my decision in the hopes of my going back on it. That can't happen, my poor willpower aside, because everything's changed. You're not going to trust me in future the way you used to (and rightly so), nor would I stand for the dynamic being what it was before.
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I still don't get why you came back to post this... You're free to do it of course, but I fail to see what pushed you to do it. I'm not surprised you came back; I'm only surprised your return seemed to be lacking any reason.
I popped in to post a single observation that I'd encountered that was relevant. It was one of those '*sigh*' moments and I thought it was pertinent to share. And then it exploded like it always does.
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So, I'm not sure you'll answer this post either, but just let me tell you that it's hard to follow what's in your mind. You really should take a break. From code, from anything.
Oh wait, that's what you did last month...
I don't really know how to. Even when on the road with Louis, we talked about Wedge every day, about things we thought it needed, things we'd like to see done with it and the dynamics of you and me came up a lot. He called it a "strange relationship" and it dug at me, the more I thought about it, the more I see he was right.

Truth be told, I'm still probably on the wrong side of 'depression' but everyone around me seems to think I'm fine. I'm just not that honest a person, I guess, hiding who I really am inside from everyone. Everyone here thinks I'm a cheerful person with a hint of cynicism. None of them know the truth and I don't feel I could tell them.
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2013: I'm not even going to make $5K from it. But it rocks, and I'm proud of it. It'll be buggy when it's out, but it'll still be the best free forum software, and I'll be happy to add this to my résumé once I have to move my ass and find a job. And I suspect you will, too.
Nope. I never added anything I ever did online to my resume, not back in 2009 when I was unofficial lead support for Sphinx search, nor later in 2009 when I was SMF team... in fact, at the last job interview I ever had, December 2009, it wasn't on there though I did explain it in the interview itself to explain what I'd been doing since being laid off in 2008, and used it as an example of trying to deal with management. I didn't get the job, either, but that wasn't because of that.
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Well, Wedge is competition to WordPress, technically, so... :^^;:
Protendo is competition, too. Doesn't mean I can't have a good relationship with Bloc. He knows how much I respect his talent (and how disastrous it would be if we worked together... Still, I had to offer him the job, out of principle ;)).
That's just it, though. Wedge isn't really competition to WordPress. Competition implies similar core functionality, and WP and Wedge are a long way apart. When blogs can actually be meaningfully used without a raw DB edit, then I'll consider it competition.
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See what I mean..? We can be competitors, that's okay, but you need to be clear about all of this. By keeping everyone in the dark, you're only making things easier for yourself. And yes, I believe I deserve to be told, anyway.
So, when I have an idea that I want to play with, that I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere, that I may just abandon in a few weeks out of boredom or the shine's worn off or something else happens, I'm still supposed to have shouted it from the rooftops and made myself look even more stupid than I already do?

Competition implies that there's actually a project to compete with. Right now all I have is SMF 2.1 with less features and a new title. That's not really competition, is it? Will it still remain that way in time? I don't know.
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Whatever you may think of me right now, whatever I may think of you right now, it doesn't change the fact that we both had tons of fun during the last three years, and that I contributed to yours, and that you contributed to mine. It would be just plain sad to leave it at 'we're not compatible as a team' when effectively, we've done great team work for so many years.
I won't argue that we had fun. But you had more fun than I did, and I've been trying to keep it going on my end for the good of the project for a while even though I wasn't having fun. I just tried to keep a stiff upper lip and carried on.

See, as I said in the thoughts, I'm between a rock and a hard place and I'm basically fucked whatever I do.

As I see it, based on everything that's been said:
* work on SMF core - upsets you, means I have to work with Git
* work on Wedge - upsets me for all the reasons I've given[3]
* fork SMF again - upsets you, gives me a lot of work to do
* fork Wedge - hassle because it will very quickly become unsynchronised and go in a vastly different direction
* do nothing - accept defeat and write off everything as a waste of time

Had I not left, my choices would have been different:
* carry on - getting more resentful of the relationship being wrong
* try to raise issues - feeling stupid in so doing, feeling vulnerable in so doing, suspecting nothing would change anyway
* quit - cause hassle in the interim while things get transferred and moved on

As I see it, I did the best thing I could for both me and the project; this way you get rid of someone who is probably capable but flakes out under pressure and has temper issues, and while there's pain in the initial phase, that'll pass. If this were a company, you would have fired my ass by now.

Posted: September 3rd, 2013, 04:44 AM

Let me just clarify one thing: I'm not saying no to a reunion because I don't want to work on Wedge, Wedge is not and in itself never has been the problem as such. I'm saying no to a reunion because 1) I'd hate the working environment and grow more resentful of things, 2) I think Nao would hate it and 3) Wedge is very awesome but I just don't see that where I'm going and where Wedge is going are the same place.
 1. First commit 22 Nov 2010, last commit 24 Nov 2010
 2. Fun bug: middle click on the 3-bar icon itself. Sidebar opens partially and closes again.
 3. I'm still needing to defend my feelings. This alone should be a warning sign.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Norodo on September 3rd, 2013, 02:07 PM
Arantor. What you need is not Wedge nor any other software project. You're writing it black on white, depression. Do your best to get better, and don't think about things like css parsers!
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: xrunner on September 3rd, 2013, 02:18 PM
All I have to say is -

WTF?

 :sad:
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: NonSecwitter on September 3rd, 2013, 04:56 PM
I have no presence on this forum, aside from one or two posts, and I honestly did not read the entirety of either of your posts, but I think you are working too closely together and working on your relationship more than the forum. In my opinion, I think you should release Wedge and start working with people who contribute recommendations, requests, and bug fixes instead of beating your heads against each other like you have for the past year.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 3rd, 2013, 05:38 PM
-sigh-

So we have some people that think Nao and I should work on our relationship, and some people that think we shouldn't and just bend over and take it anyway.

I find it curious how many of these people keep intimating that it's for 'the project', which makes me wonder if it's almost in a selfish sense - i.e. "I don't care about your problems, I just want my damn software". That's certainly what JPAnderson's comment feels like. Especially as there is a lack of understanding that I can't work on something when I feel like every time I do something, it's going to be wrong.

Both Nao and I put a lot of ourselves into Wedge. It shows, too, if you really study the code. You can probably even figure out who wrote what. But I can't work in the situation we have.

Could the situation change? Sure.

Could it change enough that we'd both be happy to continue working on it? Sure, anything's possible.

Will it change, just enough that we'd both be happy to continue working on it, but not so much that one or other resents the way things turned out? Not very likely.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: NonSecwitter on September 3rd, 2013, 06:46 PM
Personally, I don't care if you put out the software. I will congratulate you if you do, but if you don't I will just use SMF, or some crafty implementation Joomla.

My suggestion is more about ending the relationship in all but the most necessary situations and start working on the things that web developers present to you regarding your portion of the project. If you have to, put all new modules/features/etc on hold until you have lost the sense that all of your effort and energy has been a massive waste of energy. Of course you would feel that way until your work has come to fruition. Well... let it come to fruition... apples that hang on the tree too long will rot in time... I think your apples are starting to rot. Maybe you can salvage them for apple cider or something.

If you walk away from it, you'll just be the guy who walked away from an almost finished product,and he will be the guy who was too perfectionist to put out something that was good enough. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Essentially, I say honor your feelings and accommodate them accordingly. I can't imagine you would feel much better not achieving what you set out to because your partner didn't accommodate your feelings. Some people don't care, it's not a reflection of your worth on the project. Some people care but don't know what to do about it. Maybe things will change with time.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: NonSecwitter on September 3rd, 2013, 07:37 PM
Quote from Saturn5 on September 3rd, 2013, 06:46 PM
If you walk away from it, you'll just be the guy who walked away from an almost finished product,and he will be the guy who was too perfectionist to put out something that was good enough. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
I just read through some of the thoughts over the last few days leading up to this and realized that you want to go ahead with the release. I realized some other things too and generally retract most of what I said aside from needing to honor your feelings. Maybe you guys should talk to a mediator. I know it's not the "I can handle this situation myself" approach to doing things, but it does work. (I should know... I'm a mediator... And no, I wasn't applying my mediation skills to this conflict, hence my apparent ignorance)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: godboko71 on September 3rd, 2013, 08:08 PM
Play a Real Time Strategy Game in head-to-head & co-op. Beat eachother up then join sides and communicate :P Nah not getting in the middle but Video Games fix everything.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Farjo on September 3rd, 2013, 10:02 PM
Arantor, can I interrupt and take this opportunity to thank you for giving such careful answers to my basic questions, mainly if not all on coding. Because of these I have been delving into php, javascript, css et al and have been enjoying this 'hobby'.

I also agree with Norodo - your posts scream depression, low self worth, focussing on your failings but not your good points and beating yourself up at any opportunity. Easy to type and difficult to do: talk to your GP who can arrange sessions with a counsellor on the NHS. It would be great to be the guy that says "hey Nao likes my coding and does all that anal micro-coding[1] for me", rather than saying "Nao changes my code, he must think I'm useless."

And don't worry about those who just want their software, don't even reply. Get yourself sorted and enjoy the rest of your life.
 1. sorry I don't know the proper name for this nit-picking
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 4th, 2013, 12:00 AM
So...

It took me about an hour or so to read through this post. This has got to be the longest one ever posted on wedge.org... ;)

I want to reply to it paragraph by paragraph, with one-liners. But it's probably unrealistic to expect me to take several hours to do that. So, in case I don't do it -- I'll just say that I agree with Farjo overall; I think that Pete leaving has upset me more for the way it happened (given that I repeatedly complained about that), than for the leaving itself. I think that it's unlikely Pete wants to stop working on Wedge altogether; his being still active at sm.org and other sites is proof that it's just hard for him to leave forums behind, and I think he's struggling to find a way to leave his addiction behind.
So, it's probably safer for me to assume that the best thing to do right now for the project, is to do as if Pete would indeed never come back, but still a door open in case he comes back in a few months with less weight on his shoulders, and a feeling that whatever he does for Wedge is for the best, rather than something that will be torn apart by reviewers.

I believe I've done my job correctly by doing relatively thorough checks of all Pete's commits, and that he's done as good as a job as he could by checking mine; it's true that I made twice as many commit as he did, and sometimes it was just overwhelming, and he may have skipped these reviews, while in recent years, I've been more thorough in my checks because he committed less often, and thus I've more often had the opportunity to suggest minor improvements, not because I didn't like the original code, but simply because I feel more comfortable improving on others' code than writing mine from scratch.

Just look at the path I made for myself, really...
- Kyodai Mahjongg: 100% original code, but the first version was basically an improved clone of Microsoft's Taipei.
- Aeva Media: Dragooon made SMF Media Gallery 1.0; I started work on it and released version 1.5. After version 2.0, I took over development entirely. But I would never, never have created a gallery if I had to start from scratch...
- Footnotes: that's probably the only piece of code I ever started from scratch, but (1) it's just a few kilobytes, (2) the package itself was probably taken from another simple mod, and rewritten to do the footnote trick instead. Just like Wedge plugins, I never really got into making SMF mods.
- Wedge:
* Wess is based upon a script written by someone else; it was full of limitations, and I basically rewrote 95% of it. Still, I used it as a basis for my code because I wanted some code to parse multiple parents in CSS, and couldn't be arsed to figure out the proper algorithm for it.
* Skeletons are another piece of mine that may seem to be done entirely from scratch, but it's still just a "modification" of SMF's original templating system, albeit in a new file and with tons of new features.
* Nothing else comes to mind for now, but really, the idea is that 95% of my code is always *built upon* existing code, be it large overhauls or incremental improvements, and that I've never felt as 'creative' as Pete is; I just don't have such high hopes as he does, I know what I'm good at (fixing code, improving code), and I tend to focus on that; innovation comes second, on the spur of the moment. To me, the innovator in Wedge is Pete, and whatever he commits, I can only contribute to by fixing a few things. To use the ever-useful car analogy: I didn't build the car, I'm just the garageman. When the car is delivered to me for a revision, I'll just look at it in awe, and figure that since there's nothing broken with it and that I'm still being paid a lot for maintenance, I could add just a few tweaks here and there, just to get a feeling that the customer is happy with my intervention, and doesn't feel like they wasted their money on it.
And yes, I'm aware, and have been aware for a while, that Pete didn't actually enjoy having his code tweaked, but it's something of a compulsive reaction in me, I just can't do without it. I need to add my signature to it, while leaving the ideas and greatness overall intact.

So, ironically, I should be the one who's depressed because I feel that I can't bring much creativity to the table. Yet, I feel confident in my capabilities, because I have nothing to prove from my past endeavors, and I simply contribute with pleasure.

We've had a lot of good times, Pete and I, and it's not something I'll forget any time soon. I'd rather remember our partnership this way, thank you very much. I know that it's going to be hard for him to come back in a few weeks or months because in the meantime I'll have taken spiritual ownership of the project, but I'm sure he'll understand that while not being the 'boss' means you don't get to make decisions, it's important to remember that the boss still insists on listening to user opinions before making such decisions.[1]. I've always had the utmost respect for anyone else's contributions, and my tweaking them has never meant anything more than being that little garageman nobody who just enjoys looking at the perfectly oiled machinery, and add an extra pump here and there to... well, contribute to making it even better, just like anyone else.
 1. Just have a look at the project name change... A bit over half of the poll votes were against the change, and thus I decided to leave my idea aside for the time to come, and focus on other matters, even though I was very much into renaming it.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Oracle on September 4th, 2013, 12:14 AM
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Not being funny but I'm not sure you've been listening to what I've been saying. A relationship is not healthy when one person actively feels they can't air their grievances because they're afraid of what the other will say, or when they blame themselves for everything even when it isn't necessarily their fault.
Indeed I have, the message I attempted to convey concerned both of you. Youve highlighted your points of concern. What im getting from Nao is hes operated on the principal you had control of your area and he of his and that any crossover of jurisdiction was announced as a matter of courtesy. He also mentioned something along the lines that hes wasnt a mind reader implying possibly you need to be somewhat more obtuse with him on any underlying issues. Perhaps you should have spelt things out more bluntly to avoid misunderstanding?
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I tried that. It didn't work, because the times I tried to broach the subject about not being happy about the way things have gone, it's actually gone ignored. For example, Nao's complaining about last year and my absence... well, given that I'd just gone through a breakup after 10 years of being a couple, moving house, and a breakdown, is it really so surprising that I should snap and want a break?
The operative word here is "tried". Way too polite for mine. Being subtle to avoid undertones in the partnership which is what this should have been, obviously didnt carry the message. I feel maybe you sould have been more assertive if things were that important to you. Nao on the other hand needed to be more receptive to your concerns but chose to deal with things @ arms length which can be said was a failing on his part. The pair of you were more than colleagues from what I can muster. What I cant understand is why both of you simply let things slip away as they did. You have to work @ keeping the spark alive!
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I do not consider myself to have been considered as an equal in this partnership. I feel like I'm on the wrong end of a D/s relationship and I couldn't say stop loudly enough to be heard.
Perhaps this may have had something to do with your general announcement a ways back suggesting Nao was the principal here or words to that effect. Deep down you would have prefered to have been an equal and be seen as such. If you were equals Nao should have clarified his position @ the time. From my recollection he did not and therin lies part of your problem.

Remember some time ago you talked about an office job you had where you couldnt work with your superior. Your clearly one of those personalities that need to lead not follow. Your situation with wedge was a rerun of that where your preference was obviously to be seen as an equal @ the very least and were not acknowledged as such, although Nao has praised your work on occasion.
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That's the problem. There's not been much of that for a while... could see the use of them and it would make Wedge better - but don't mistake that for the fact I *wanted* to implement them. I implemented them for Wedge's benefit. In fact, of the features I've added, I actually don't see myself using most of them. I added them because I felt Wedge needed them, which is something quite different to 'because I wanted them'. I don't mind this in principle, I did it a lot for SimpleDesk too.
Look its plain as day, Nao is what I would term a perfectionist whereas your preference tends toward pioneering. Leave the nuts and bolts to him you focus on the exciting things that motivate you into doing what you do best. I can imagine the turmoil you have both been through but this is an area where some form of compromise should have been reached.
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Well, that's not how I see it. The common denominator is..... because it has more things that they want and wouldn't care about the name. I doubt anyone really cares about where the name vBulletin comes from.
Maybe so but did you notice how Nao has had dramas with his better half and yet he gravitated toward wedge when things got him down he persisted. As for the name changes well again you should have been more assertive if it meant that much not just dismiss it for the sake of maintaining harmony.
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You're telling me that I should put my personal matters aside for the good of the project, yet doing so would mean that I would be working my ass off for something I don't just resent but actively dislike... there is nothing healthy about this.
Not so, if its not going to work for you its not going to work. Simply this, neither of you have really dug deep enough to resolve the ill feelings that surfaced. I find it amazing that two brilliant developers such as yourselves with inquiring minds as thorough as you both are couldnt kick an end goal in all this. It was all left in the air without so much as a sorry or attempt to reconcile but instead EGO seems to have prevailed. Ill health is another matter entirely im talking from day 1 no real communicato.
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You'll see throughout this forum that all the time I work on the backend - which includes the admin panel - it's absolutely fine, but woe betide me if I want to put something visible on the front end. ..... I thought that was a particularly good idea but shit, it means that other things have to be rethought.
Yeah possibly you needed more control over development of the project in its entirety seeing your the one who actively made comparisons with other software etc and were better placed for it. You would have been more in a position to take wedge where it needed to go. Thats where your enjoyment would have flourished and you wouldnt have felt like you were left in the cold half the time.
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Yesterday going through SMF 2.1 and reapplying stuff like converting to UTF-8 only, I was reminded only too well of how far we'd come. And I remembered what I wanted to do in Wedge, and I remembered more importantly how much I'd already compromised on in the name of the project. There are things I wanted to do since day 1 that I was overruled on and I just let it go because I didn't feel I could say anything. In hindsight I wish I'd spoken up more but I'm not sure anyone would have listened.
Well hindsights a marvelous thing but is it really really, too late? Is Nao able to fully appreciate where your coming from and able to reconcile?
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History lesson #2:  The prime motivation wasn't about seeing how awesome we could make it, it was saving the project.
Bullshit!!!! > Well maybe so but I was talking after the event when Nao and yourself merged as a separate entity.
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Fun fact, did you know....My point, which I am most assuredly getting to, is that I could show Nao all the compassion in the world but I doubt it would make a lot of difference going the other way.

I have made it known on multiple occasions that I was not keen on the constant rewriting. I make it clear that I didn't like committing things knowing they were going to get rewritten, to the point I flat out said that he should just write things on the front end instead because I felt like I was submitting half-assed work all the time.

None of this was commented upon at the time, if I remember rightly. Communication relies on both parties talking and both parties listening. I've done enough talking, and I'm not being heard. And I haven't felt like I've been heard for a while. The problem is, were I to rejoin now, one of two things would likely happen, either things would quickly be how they were (which is unacceptable to me)
Well seems to be a failing on Nao's part and time for in depth reflection. What say you?

 
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: spoogs on September 4th, 2013, 01:04 AM
Yikes

I usually do not get involved in these types of discussions because there is almost always more to it than is being said and for that I believe since this is more between Arantor and Nao a public discussion won't do much good.

What I dont like is that as things went forward the impression that was given is that both worked well together at least that how I saw it, of course there would be hiccups and issues but again it always seemed as though both found away to make it work. Obviously that was not what was really happening as this all seems very personal.

Wedge aside - there must be a reason you guys decided to work together, revisit that first, then see what changed along the way, decide if it can be fixed, if not cut the losses which seems to be where things currently stand. If somehow meaningful compromise can be made based on your differing views and work styles, accounting for your individual strengths and weaknesses then try to resolve this but do it privately.

Seriously guys egos and all aside, you guys had vision of bringing together your different ideas to the project either find that common ground again or just be done with it. I'm not the one to tell people what yo do or to get into other people's issues but I really do not think this is for the rest of us to watch. Nao give Pete access to whatever private boards you guys use to discuss things (I'm assuming such a thing existed), hash it out there and if you both feel like it, just let us know the outcome.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: NonSecwitter on September 4th, 2013, 02:38 AM
Quote from spoogs on September 4th, 2013, 01:04 AM
Nao give Pete access to whatever private boards you guys use to discuss things (I'm assuming such a thing existed), hash it out there and if you both feel like it, just let us know the outcome.
I disagree. When they started this project they also started a community, and I think they probably realized that. If not immediately, than soon after. They have been here for the community through countless hours of coding, so now the community is attempting to support them.

Again. I'm just a guy who checks in every now and then to see how Wedge is coming along, but I also deal with conflict professionally. All of the support is great. They are both doing a great job of expressing their frustrations with each other. And it seem there has been a small amount of acknowledgement of certain issues, especially from the community. I especially like @Oracle 's last post and his acknowledgement of personality tendencies such as @Nao 's perfectionism and @Arantor 's pioneering, one's need to lead and one
s attention to detail.


Obviously these feelings have been brewing under the surface for a while, and have just come to a rolling boil. It's kind of like microwaving distilled water and throwing a fork in it. You're both great people!

Now, a big question to answer is what each person want, needs, and how they want this played out. I think it's a great idea to write down a list of requirements or agreements if you are going to move forward. Itemize line by line with specific details what needs to happen. Yor relationship isn't dictated by a list of agreements, but it can serve as a reference point.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 5th, 2013, 12:28 PM
Quote from Oracle on September 4th, 2013, 12:14 AM
He also mentioned something along the lines that hes wasnt a mind reader implying possibly you need to be somewhat more obtuse with him on any underlying issues. Perhaps you should have spelt things out more bluntly to avoid misunderstanding?
I really, really didn't expect his departure...
I told him that I had trouble keeping up with all his posts, and thus we established that I didn't have to read them, and that if he needed my attention, he'd just @Nao me, which I was trying to get to grips with, and it was starting to work, but... Well, too little too late maybe...? I don't know. It's true, though, that I'm not a very good listener. Autistic tendencies, like a majority of geeks. I can't do more on that-- working on it IRL, but it's already hard as it is to start working on myself on the Internet, too... :geek:
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The pair of you were more than colleagues from what I can muster.
Well, we were fellow victims at sm.org in 2010, then partners in crime for a couple of years, but never got to meet IRL, which is a shame because it probably would have changed how we see each other. (Perhaps resulting in an earlier split, but I doubt it... :P)
I've had partnerships with other people in the past -- most ended in a sour way, but other times it just works well until one of the party decides to go in another direction. For instance, Dragooon left his (our) SMG project to work on his mobile theme while I stayed on it and turned it into Aeva Media -- we remained in excellent terms, and as you can see, he's still around at wedge.org and will get commit access in the near future. Sometimes it takes a bit of effort to simply agree to disagree, and being dramatic about it won't do anything good. I'm okay with Pete leaving, I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm just trying to adjust to a project where suddenly I can break anything I don't like (themes!) without asking for anyone's opinions... :P Still, as I said multiple times, the reason it didn't end quietly is that Pete had angry words with me in public, and I didn't really appreciate that. His later posts were more satisfying, and thus I've left all of this behind me.
I'm still posting here because, well... If anyone has any questions they need me to answer... :P
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although Nao has praised your work on occasion.
I've always praised Pete's work. He's done many things I couldn't/wouldn't have done, ever. We were very, very complementary on so many different things. Unfortunately, sometimes a work relationship can work 95% perfectly, but someone might only want to see the remaining 5%. It's sad, but I guess Pete will eventually understand that he needs to be cooler about these things. Being afraid to commit because of what others will think..? I don't think I've had this kind of feeling for over 15 years... If I'm happy with something, someone else is bound to be happy with it too. I always do things that way. And it works.
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Look its plain as day, Nao is what I would term a perfectionist whereas your preference tends toward pioneering.
I innovate, too[1], but on a smaller scale. I never wished to reinvent the wheel. In fact, from the very first day we started Wedge, we had to find an agreement because, like Pete mentioned, he wanted to do DragonBB and only go with innovations everywhere, while I wanted to fork SMF so that we wouldn't have to spend so much time on silly things like security, handling user permissions, database structure, templates, things like that...
In the end, we did end up rewriting much of it, and it took us over three years, but I'm still positive that if we had started from scratch, the project would have failed soon enough. There are a dozen reasons for that, and suffice to say, we made the right choice. But I can understand that it frustrated Pete all along, so...
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As for the name changes well again you should have been more assertive if it meant that much not just dismiss it for the sake of maintaining harmony.
The name change never was a problem. I was happy to stay with 'Wedge' as long as Pete worked with me on it. The other name was just something I had in mine in case I proceeded with the 'friendly fork', and it came up again when Pete left. But the poll results seemed to indicate a tendency towards keeping the Wedge namesake, so I figured, I'll just change the main logo on the homepage (i.e. picking my favorite out of all recent ones), that'll be another symbol of change. (Of course it's not meant as the final logo, as it's too complicated... It's just there to say, "Wedge is not the same as it was a year ago.")
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Well hindsights a marvelous thing but is it really really, too late? Is Nao able to fully appreciate where your coming from and able to reconcile?
Again-- I have no problems with Pete, at all... I've never lost any respect for the quality of his work, his novel ideas, and his general understanding of everything that matters. I also find him to be funny, smart, unafraid of heavy workloads, and willing to try new things. His advice on so many subjects is just invaluable, and it's one of the things I'll regret the most. But if he ever were to rejoin the project, despite all of the qualities I just listed, he would have to settle on being an advisor and a co-lead developer, but not a decision maker (which wouldn't even be a problem more than a couple of times a year.) Two people is a crowd in the decision room, and one has to take the lead. I'm more focused on the project, and I'll get it to completion. I have a clear idea about what has been done, what should be done and why it's all so good.
Really, if in a few months he offers to help again, of course I'll say yes.
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Well seems to be a failing on Nao's part and time for in depth reflection. What say you?
I've had many failings, but you can't blame me too much here... ;)
 1. Follow_me, footnotes in a forum, strong gallery concepts, infinite scroll, modal alert reinvention, and hundreds of other things...
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 5th, 2013, 06:37 PM
Phew, lots of stuff here. So, let's try and make sense of it all. I'll break it down into the key points that seem to be coming up.

Perfect vs Good
I'm only too aware that perfect can be the enemy of good. My concerns over releasing/not releasing were never about perfect vs good, but good vs unfinished. Let's make this absolutely clear: look back through the logs and tell me how often I tweaked something I'd made. Tell me how often I went and changed things that I wasn't entirely happy with.

Most of my commits were removing things I didn't like or adding new things. Very few were just changing things I wasn't entirely happy with. That's why I made half the number of commits Nao did: I don't tend to commit and iterate, I iterate then commit when I'm happy with it.

I think it's fair to say that I'm not laden with the perfect vs good problem.

The problem I do have is that while my code isn't sacred to me, people just aren't listening to the problem I DO have. If my code is bad enough that it needs more than tiny modifications, it's obviously sub par, so I obviously did a bad job. It's nothing to do with leaving the nuts and bolts to someone else, it's the fact that I constantly have the feeling of turning in B-grade work, even when it's A-grade work, just because it doesn't fit with someone else's sense of coding aesthetics.

Innovators vs Iterators
I wouldn't consider either of us 'better than the other' in terms of innovation.

We've both done things that we have the right to be proud of, and Nao has outlined some of the things he's proud of within Wedge. I'm very proud of the plugin system, and the warning system. I'm proud of the fact that I was able to do some things that I'd never have been able to do in the SMF ecosystem even if I'd been given the keys to the kingdom, like going UTF-8 only.

But to me, none of that is actually innovation. It's all iteration on what was there already.

The plugin system is simply a case of addressing the numerous issues I saw in the current SMF package ecosystem (ensuring hooks have more power, checking hook existence, using it as feature detection, etc.)

The warning system, again, it's a case of addressing issues I saw in the SMF one; the notion of being able to revoke a warning (rather than warning with a negative %), the notion of being able to tie punishments to specific warnings, to be able to have much more gradual punishments, and to tie that lot together to be able to grant punishments that fit the crime better (Bad avatar? Remove the avatar.)

I cannot name a single thing I added to Wedge that I can justifiably call innovative. In some ways that made it harder because I was already working on the premise that I wasn't doing what I wanted, but what needed to be done.

On the other hand, some of the stuff Nao added does seem innovative to me, at least in the forum world: footnotes, infinite scroll (it may not be in itself unique but Wedge is the only forum software that has it as a core feature), thoughts etc. so already there's a feeling of inadequacy on my part. And yes, that does suck.

I find it interesting that we seem to feel the same way about each other for this project, that neither of us seems to feel like an innovator and that feels the other is. Your perspective on this will likely be different to mine.

On not being bold with communication
This is always going to be a tough one. Despite my general exterior and persona I give out of being strong voiced, I'm really quite introverted. Anyone who's seen the Crossing Overland videos will know how little I tend to say in person.

Then there's the general attitude of the English that's thoroughly part of me, i.e. the stiff upper lip, the keep calm and carry on attitude.

And to be fair, a lot of the issues that annoyed me didn't annoy me enough individually to do something about them at the time, so I let them go.[1]

Stuff like the autoloader really annoyed me because for the sake of a little extra typing (or, even coming into the 20th Century and using auto complete in various tools), we could have simplified the structure of a bunch of things and made performance gains from not having enormous files whose content was not used perhaps as often as one might expect.

Especially, for example, considering my thoughts around going down the CMS route. In a pure CMS, things like the stats updating that SMF does just aren't as necessary (because they're never called so often), censoring is not needed so often, and things like that. These are things loaded every page that just do not need to be in those situations. So you'd hive them off because that makes sense to do.

Anyway, I'm digressing. My psychological nature is predisposed to avoiding conflict if possible, and every time something came up that I didn't like, I was forced to choose whether it annoyed me enough that I wanted to say something or just say nothing and accept it. The problem was that in the cases where I did speak up, I don't feel I was listened to - even when I went into long and thorough arguments about why I didn't like something.

Short of getting into shouting matches over everything I just accepted that I was wrong most of the time and left it at that, until I just couldn't do that any more.

To the people who said I should have been more forthright in my views, could you honestly go back over my posts and say I wasn't forthright in my views? Could you honestly say that I didn't try hard to be heard?

I understand Nao's reluctance to read every post. But I did it. I read every post on the forum, even the ones I never replied to, and tried to take that on board. It wasn't always successful but I tried it. On the other hand, I suspect that if he had tried to read more posts - not even all of them, but just a general selection of them, he would have a different view of both me and of the userbase.

One of the things I have been unhappy about for some time - and this affects Wedge rather than my interpersonal relationship with Nao - is that Wedge has two different directions in the code. It has a bunch of stuff that users will use either directly or indirectly, and it has a bunch of cool stuff. The problem with the cool stuff is that it directly affects what goes on in the ecosystem.

I sincerely dread the day when Wedge is let loose and designers take one look at it and try to figure out how to make it all work. Templates being piecemeal unlike SMF's monoliths, they'll have to deal with that. The CSS preparser... they'll have to deal with that too but I like to believe they will ultimately find it useful to have that rather than not. But trying to make interesting layouts that aren't just colour changes, while trying to make wireless, infinite scroll, userbox moving all still work... that's a challenge I simply don't envy them having.

What I think that means is that most themes will be simple colour variations.

Superior vs equal vs inferior
I have in the past talked about my office life. Over the 5 years I was in that career path, I had a number of team leaders through various reorganisations, 6 if my recollection is correct, and that's not including the more senior managers that were above my team leaders with whom I tried to ensure I had a good working relationship as well.

Of those team leaders, only two of them were somewhat less than successful. The first of those two was because my team leader and I had different views on the way things should be done. As will probably be clear from conversations here, I have a very strong sense of ethics and about things being done properly, but that I'm willing to compromise over correctness when it is appropriate. My team leader on the other hand, was of the view that compromise was the way forward wherever possible, that closing the deal was most important.

The best example I have is a mortgage deal we were working on.
(click to show/hide)
I should clarify the situation; our department dealt with new mortgages being issued, I worked within the latter part of the process, dealing with solicitors/conveyancers, in making sure all the paperwork was provided and correct and that the company's legal coverage on the mortgaged property would be all solid.

You can imagine that this is the ideal sort of situation for me, really, and in many ways it ways. There were rules, there were places the rules could be bent. And for someone of my tendencies - strong on knowledge retention and doing it properly - this worked out.

Then we had this deal come in that the new sales rep was so keen to push because it was a demonstration of our flexibility. It all centred around two houses that had been knocked through into one but were legally still two properties on the title deeds and how this would get resolved.

I took the case to the lead and told him why it wasn't going to work out because of the way it was currently registered and that it couldn't physically be fixed. He took the view that it wasn't our problem provided that the lawyers dealing with it signed a declaration that they would get it fixed - apparently that was enough for our protection, since lawyers acting for the lender are required by law to protect the lender's interest.

Unfortunately that's what happened. The leader spoke to the lawyer, got a letter from them, and whatnot. And I said I wouldn't sign it off. There was no way I was putting my name on that case and interestingly enough no-one else would either. In the end it had to be signed off by the director of operations (who is a people manager, essentially, and had no real idea of what it all meant)

And sure enough, this came up during my end of year review as not being flexible and obstructive etc. Fortunately for me, I'd kept note of the case number and knew he would pull it out at the meeting, so about a week before then, I sent an email to the customer services team, who dealt with cases after they'd been funded, to find out what happened to it. Imagine my surprise when I discovered the case had been handed to the litigation team because the security was impaired. I even got them to email me the notes about it and brought it to the meeting. As you can imagine this did not go down well.

The problem was ultimately a clash of ideologies and to a lesser degree a lack of respect. I took his position under consideration but my job description carried the line that my responsibility was to protect the interest of the company to the best of my ability - and that's exactly what I did. The fact I was overruled was not my problem as I'd done everything in my power to protect them.

The second manager was a real piece of work.
(click to show/hide)
By this time I was an auditor with the company. You can imagine how well that worked out for my general anal-retentive attitude.

And at this point my partner worked at the company in the same team, but as a 'probationary' or 'trainee' or something. Anyway, she worked in the same team doing the same job, but for several thousand pounds less a year.

The team leader wasn't impressed that Liz would defer to me more than the others, but the reason for this was never entirely understood: because I was *competent*.

We were given the cases to review prior to funding - so the job I used to do (see the first spoiler) was about getting the paperwork in and reviewing it and passing it to the funding team, then the funding team would review it and press the magic buttons.

And having been a mortgage processor, I knew exactly the sorts of crap that used to go up to the funding team and what the funding team used to kick back to me, haha.

Anyway, there was a list of things that had to be checked that the team had to do for each case. 118 items if memory serves, all yes/no/not applicable questions. So, just check that the system has the right details in it, answer the questions.

Problem 1: what if you notice something wrong that's not in the questions? Answer: You're not supposed to be checking anything other than the list because the list is sacred.

Problem 2: what if you're more conscientious and just check it anyway? Answer: You get blasted for spending more than 10 minutes on it. Yes, we were timed, and managed on that crap.

I frequently used to turn in what clocked up as '4 and a half hours work' because I did it thoroughly, and not just what the team leader's best mates did, which was the minimum possible to get the job done, and that's how the 10 minutes time was arrived at.

It should be of no surprise that come the quarterly review from the lending quality team that cases I approved for funding had the fewest errors in percentage terms. Quarter after quarter this happened. Funny that.

But I messed up the figures for the team leader by looking like I wasn't working hard enough, though the more senior managers all understood what was going on. Trouble is, she was of the understanding that I was trying to undermine her at every opportunity; I wasn't. I just didn't agree with her managing-by-the-numbers and not really caring about little things like quality.

It should be of no surprise that a few months after I was made redundant from the company, that they collapsed entirely, when you have people like that at the management helm.

The problem as you can probably imagine is not that I can't work with managers. The problem is that I can't work with managers who can't understand where I'm coming from.

As I have said on multiple occasions - though I think this is another thing no-one listened to - I have no problem with being disagreed with or even overruled, provided that I have the feeling that what I had to say was taken into account. I don't just say things for the sake of saying them, I say them because I believe they're important to say.

The two managers I reference above rarely listened to what I had to say unless it agreed with what they already thought in the first place. This isn't a respectful setup and I have no time for it. Funny how all the other team leaders understood my points when they were made - even when they didn't agree with me and even when they overruled me, they at least listened and took it on board.

Control versus contribution
There is an interesting problem related to this, but it relates also to the whole lead vs follow debate. I can lead when it's appropriate, I can follow when it's appropriate. Whichever would best get the job done, I suppose.

The problem is when I'm told that I'm a leader but have to act like a follower, like we've had here. In fact, I find this quote from Nao most telling of all:
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But if he ever were to rejoin the project, despite all of the qualities I just listed, he would have to settle on being an advisor and a co-lead developer, but not a decision maker (which wouldn't even be a problem more than a couple of times a year.)
This would merely continue how it's actually been for most of the last year to 18 months, if not longer. It would simply formalise it and make it clear that this is how things would be.

Ironically, had Nao outlined to me on day one that this is how he wanted to work, I could probably have made that work. It was always stated that we were equals and yet we never really acted as equals.

Two people may be a crowd when it comes to a decision, but saying that one has to take the lead is not right. One took the lead in the absence of decision and just carried on with what he wanted to do despite the opposition.

I find it interesting that it's cited as being in the region 'a couple of times a year'. There are at least a couple of examples from just the last month or two where this was an issue.

On where we came from, and maybe where we're going
I do like being told how what I think is bullshit especially from people who weren't there, who weren't part of the discussions that were held at the time.

One of the really big problems is that I don't think we ever really expressed much of a unified vision. It was all about preserving the SMF legacy and iterating on it to make it better. Right now Wedge is where SMF should be, what SMF should have become in the intervening time. SMF and Wedge have had 3 years to work on things, and in that three years we've made great strides in improving what SMF was. Right now, Wedge kicks SMF 2.1 to the kerb in a lot of places.

Nao always made it clear that he wanted to push towards what Noisen is, essentially a form of localised social network. I was largely fine with that to start with because a forum is, essentially, a specific subset of the social network thing anyway, but increasingly I've been feeling that Wedge won't realise its true potential if it continues to think of itself as a forum software first and foremost.

SMF's problem is that it's 'just a forum', Wedge's is that it's 'primarily a forum', and that pure forums are finding it very hard to compete these days because most people use Facebook and Google+ for what used to be pure forums. That in order for the software to grow and thrive, the forum must essentially be deprecated from the main feature to a core feature of something bigger. And that did not sit well, as per the various posts on the subject, especially when I outlined the notion of Wedge being able to run with the forum disabled.

The problem is that we're at a crossroads. I don't see how we can meaningfully take the software in both directions, and as has become clear I'm #2 on the totem pole, so unless Nao wants to back off from going towards the Noisen type route and dive in head first with the CMS approach, there's no way the unified vision can work.

I would almost go as far as to say that we're not on common ground so much any more. We're no longer refugees from a battleground, nor strangers in a strange land. The only common ground really is the idea of a forum and I want to make that second fiddle to something else anyway.

On forking and name changes
Just in case it wasn't entirely clear what was going on, Nao suggested that we might get to a point where we would fork, I'd take 'Wedge' and he'd take the other, under the new banner but that we'd still share code back and forth. The trouble is, as I said at the time, that just wouldn't work - there would be changes very quickly that would make that sort of thing just not work out very well. I've been there, I've seen it happen - heck, I doubt there's anything much that SMF 2.1, ElkArte and Wedge can all share in these days even though they are all descendants of the same 2.0 codebase.

On hashing this out in public or private
It just sort of happened that it came out in public. Though in all honesty I'm not sure doing it privately would have made much of a difference to the end result, though the road would have been different.

Nao and I would have talked, I'd probably have been suckered in to staying longer, getting more resentful and eventually just disappearing, only no-one but Nao would have known what was going on. I don't like cloak and dagger politics and I think the comment about this being a community is right.

In a normal community if one of the leaders leaves abruptly without any communication, it's a major failure especially if it's not even clear why they left. If one of the leaders leaves abruptly with some communication, maybe something can be salvaged. Mind you, I'm still concerned at the number of people participating in this thread who appear to be misinterpreting what I'm saying as the reasons I'm fed up.

Cause and effect
Some people have opined that my general state of depression may be caused by this situation, or it caused this situation. I'm not sure which it is, but most likely I was already depressed under the surface and this brought it to a head.

The bottom line
I see people that are essentially asking me to step up and just accept it. I doubt any of those people really understand what my problem is, because I feel that if they did, they would actually understand why that isn't going to happen.

What I do note is that there has been a lot more honesty since I stepped down than there was before I did so. Both Nao and I have, in this thread and elswhere, made it clear that we have the ways we work, and that we're not entirely happy about changing how we work to suit others because it works for us.

The problem I have is that I can't keep adapting my work style to the way this project is run. I can't deal with submitting work only to have it dissected. That has implications beyond me and Wedge and I'll have to deal with those.[2] To the comments about me just learning to deal with it, I'm sorry but those are very naive and perhaps ill-informed. This is not just something you 'deal with'.

I consider what I do to be art, with all the pretentiousness that goes with it. I'm not paid to make Wedge, so I don't owe anything to anyone. More importantly, that means as far as I'm concerned no-one has the right to demand I make anything in certain ways.

Would Van Gogh have painted the Sunflowers paintings if he knew Gauguin would come along and touch up the paintings afterwards? Would he, perhaps, have painted them differently? Would he, instead, perhaps have considered trying to paint and repaint them if he knew they would be scrutinised and tried to paint them perfectly before handing them over?

This is what we're talking about. The people that talk about perfection in code don't understand that this is an artform. It is not something that can be turned on and off, I am not a trained monkey at a keyboard. It happens when it happens because it happens, just like any other art. Novels are literary art, paintings are visual art, code is its own art. I may not necessarily be good at it in some respects but that doesn't change that I consider it art and I don't like it being tampered with. There are times I've specifically pointed out flaws where I didn't know how to do it any better and times I've specifically outlined that things should be looked at. I doubt many people here understood what it takes to put that into writing.

See, what people don't always remember is that the commit log is to all practical purposes, permanent. I'm going on record, in public, and for all purposes that matter, permanently saying "This isn't very good but it's the best I can do, I'm sorry". I'm flat out admitting I'm putting in sub-par code because I'm not good enough to do it any better.

The thing is I've been doing bits of this stuff for years - I was writing JavaScript in 2000. I'm still not any better at it now, and here we are 13 years on. Make of that what you will.


Anyway, now we're getting to the heart of the matter. In the preceding posts it's very clear that I have never entirely been a project leader for this project, that I've been a 'co leader' but without the power to back it up, and note that it isn't me saying that. I don't feel I've been lied to, but I feel like what I've felt has been backed up by the posts above, like I had suspicions waiting to be confirmed.

Yes, I still have a place in my heart for forums. It's why I haven't just disappeared entirely. The problem is that it's now perfectly clear that a reunion of the two of us for Wedge just won't be possible. As much fun as we had, the reality is that I cannot be part of this situation any more. You can't give me the title of leader and not the power that goes with it, and there's no chance in hell that I'd be a "contributor" knowing what will happen - that will just be a continuation of what brought us to this point, and I can't be a part of that.

I must admit I didn't appreciate the comment about how you feel you deserve to be told about what I'm going on to do. By the same logic, if I'd gone to contribute to *any* other software that's even remotely a competitor to Wedge, that logic suggests I should tell you. If I'd gone to write XenForo plugins, or IPB plugins or even to phpBB, I get the feeling that you'd expect me to tell you about it. Here's the thing, that's what equals might do, but I'm not your equal and I've never been your equal. Just as when I left one job for another, I didn't bother to tell my employer where I went, because it was none of their business any longer. I left, and in any normal respect that would have left me free to work on whatever I wanted to work on. The fact I mentioned it at all is a courtesy, certainly not an expectation. The fact I'm working on it in private is because after everything that's happened, I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE AS A CONTRIBUTOR.

I actually can't trust anyone to work with any more at the code level. The only people I trust are those who provide me assets (e.g. textures, models) and I make them work in my code, because they don't write any code and I don't have to worry about it overlapping. And yes, I'm well aware that this is my problem to 'deal' with.

The saddest part is that even when I disentangle myself, baring myself in a way I just do NOT do normally, being more honest with myself than I have been for a very long time, too many people still don't get it.
 1. Accepting good vs perfect, anyone?
 2. Ultimately it means I need to consider whether I work in open source software at all because the same problem is prevalent there in general.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
Forgot to mention... Yes, I suppose a signed CLA would be nice, but I fear we're going to start wondering what to put in the CLA, ah ah... :lol:
Quote from Arantor on September 5th, 2013, 06:37 PM
Perfect vs Good
Most of my commits were removing things I didn't like or adding new things. Very few were just changing things I wasn't entirely happy with. That's why I made half the number of commits Nao did: I don't tend to commit and iterate, I iterate then commit when I'm happy with it.
And early on, we determined that we'd check each other's commits as thoroughly as we could... Whenever I made a mistake, you were there to point it out, for which I believe I was grateful..? Part of not being my own boss was that it took a load off me, and I was grateful that you'd check my commits. In exchange, I always checked yours of course... Except for the few times where you committed some huge changes, such as adding the plugin system. Or when Dragooon added his notification system -- it was a huge thing, but as it was UI stuff as well, I took it upon myself to make it as good as possible. I don't know... It just feels natural, to me, that if I can help, I should. I just didn't know you didn't consider it help but, something like an insult, IIUC..?
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If my code is bad enough that it needs more than tiny modifications, it's obviously sub par, so I obviously did a bad job.
Course not!
If anything, you *started* so many things. As I explained, I'm really not good at starting them, I'm only good at building upon them.
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Innovators vs Iterators
On the other hand, some of the stuff Nao added does seem innovative to me, at least in the forum world: footnotes, infinite scroll (it may not be in itself unique but Wedge is the only forum software that has it as a core feature), thoughts etc. so already there's a feeling of inadequacy on my part. And yes, that does suck.
You're so mistaken about that... :-/ You really did your part, and did it great. You did all of the things that I suck at (coding things 'because they need to be done' rather than 'because I want to do them', managing the growing community, doing tech watch on important matters...)
If I'm spending time answering your post, it's not to draw you back into it -- it's to at the very least pay a frigging homage to the work you did on Wedge for the last three years; everything you did shall be remembered, and it just won't be the same anymore. There are some things that will be done in a less adequate way, but it'll just have to be. I'm okay with that. I just wanted to say thanks for all the fish, that's all. And good luck on your game.
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On not being bold with communication
This is always going to be a tough one. Despite my general exterior and persona I give out of being strong voiced, I'm really quite introverted. Anyone who's seen the Crossing Overland videos will know how little I tend to say in person.
In my case, it's a bit of a mixed bag... It all depends on what you're talking about with me. I can be annoyingly quiet (usually meaning I'm close to taking my phone from my pocket and playing a game of Scrabble, like I always do in these awkward moments... Yes, I'm the awkward moment all by myself), or if you get met started on pop culture -- movies, TV, anime, obscure music, games, whatever -- you'll just regret you did, because I just can't shut up. I'm a living iMDb, I'm a walking Wikipedia, everything I learn online I need to share it with everybody. Milady learned a long time ago how to just ignore these moments, but her friends, not so much... ;)
I guess I'm quite the same online as I'm IRL, but your mileage may vary.
Anyway, it's unrelated to the point...
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Stuff like the autoloader really annoyed me because for the sake of a little extra typing (or, even coming into the 20th Century and using auto complete in various tools), we could have simplified the structure of a bunch of things and made performance gains from not having enormous files whose content was not used perhaps as often as one might expect.
I really don't know where performance can be gained; first of all, the fact that you claim to have increased performance just after you started work on your private project-- it implies that the changes weren't that many, and yet, I had a look at some of the basic files, and I really don't know how much data you can take out of them, and apart from the notification system which I understand you wanted to load dynamically (and I've never been against the idea), I really don't see what can be improved in that respect, so... I dunno.
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Anyway, I'm digressing. My psychological nature is predisposed to avoiding conflict if possible, and every time something came up that I didn't like, I was forced to choose whether it annoyed me enough that I wanted to say something or just say nothing and accept it. The problem was that in the cases where I did speak up, I don't feel I was listened to - even when I went into long and thorough arguments about why I didn't like something.
I'm sorry that you felt that way; I try to listen to what you have to say, but this year perhaps I failed doing a good job at it. I did what I could, but it probably wasn't enough, or even 'my best'.
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I sincerely dread the day when Wedge is let loose and designers take one look at it and try to figure out how to make it all work. Templates being piecemeal unlike SMF's monoliths, they'll have to deal with that.
And they'll learn to love it.. ;)
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The CSS preparser... they'll have to deal with that too but I like to believe they will ultimately find it useful to have that rather than not.
80% of the job can be done using regular CSS files; I mean, you can very well include an external CSS file and be happy with using brackets in it. Or you can modify the 'main' files, and in that case you're already in an environment where the Wess syntax is being used, and you just adapt to it. I'll be honest, even I make some mistakes in my code from time to time -- just earlier today, I was yelling at my @if test not working and being included as such (in plain view) in the compiled CSS, when I realized it wasn't a bug in the parser, but rather I simply forgot to add the @endif, which as an instruction contradicts the nested structure of Wess files, but is needed because an @if block can contain un-indented code and thus must be treated separately. There are some hiccups from time to time, but overall I think all of this is for the best...
I could possibly tweak Wess to allow for brackets to be used in addition to the Wess syntax within the same file, but I never felt the urge to do it, really.
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But trying to make interesting layouts that aren't just colour changes, while trying to make wireless, infinite scroll, userbox moving all still work... that's a challenge I simply don't envy them having.
Since I'll eventually be removing the theme system (as discussed elsewhere-- this is a good example of something I always wanted to do but I was certain you'd be against the idea so I never even took the time to discuss it, so you see, you're not the only one who's afraid of their partner's reaction ;)), this will be a different story altogether.
I'll probably create a couple more skins which, like Warm, will attempt to show how much power the skin system currently holds. Yes, I really think it's possible to do pretty much everything skin-less themes could do.
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What I think that means is that most themes will be simple colour variations.
That's a risk I'm willing to take... :^^;:
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Superior vs equal vs inferior
The two managers I reference above rarely listened to what I had to say unless it agreed with what they already thought in the first place. This isn't a respectful setup and I have no time for it. Funny how all the other team leaders understood my points when they were made - even when they didn't agree with me and even when they overruled me, they at least listened and took it on board.
It's easier to listen when you're meeting face-to-face. I always have a problem with online communication... :-/
That's why I was disappointed never having the opportunity to meet you IRL, I guess. Or even communicate over Hangouts or something...
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Control versus contribution
Ironically, had Nao outlined to me on day one that this is how he wanted to work, I could probably have made that work. It was always stated that we were equals and yet we never really acted as equals.
I think the reason it worked flawlessly over the first couple of years is that (1) we still thought we had time to release Wedge so we just set aside a lot of the uneasy discussions we might have wanted to have, and (2) we were both involved at the same level, and neither of us had yet to experience a breakdown or anything related. Life happens.
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Two people may be a crowd when it comes to a decision, but saying that one has to take the lead is not right. One took the lead in the absence of decision and just carried on with what he wanted to do despite the opposition.
And was that a bad thing to do...? Realistically, I mean..?
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On where we came from, and maybe where we're going
Nao always made it clear that he wanted to push towards what Noisen is, essentially a form of localised social network.
Technically, for those who don't know of the story... My idea of my contributions to Wedge was to integrate into it every single thing I'd developed on SMF for myself, i.e. Aeva Media and Noisen features. AeMe was easy, it was just a mod, but I never really got around to overhauling it, and that's a mistake I made. Noisen was more complicated. I made a huge (800KB..?) patch file of all differences between vanilla SMF and Noisen, and then proceeded to apply all of these features, one by one, to Wedge. It turned out, halfway into it, that many features couldn't be integrated as such, either because the codebase had already become too different, or because the code became unneeded because of internal improvements, or simply because it was a lot to do. The most important thing to me was integrating the privacy system, and I think I did all of it over the years... I mean, it was mainly about adding some code to all MySQL queries involving the topic table, but it was still a bitch. Over the years, I moved away from my desire to adapt Noisen into Wedge, but I still have plans to use Wedge over there, because Wedge rocks, and I'm willing to lose all of the Noisen features I didn't integrate into it, at least for a time.
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SMF's problem is that it's 'just a forum', Wedge's is that it's 'primarily a forum', and that pure forums are finding it very hard to compete these days because most people use Facebook and Google+ for what used to be pure forums.
Not everyone. For instance, Milady isn't on Facebook... Not only she's not on it, but she hates the idea of even opening an account over there to keep in touch with her friends. (I've friended everyone in her circle, so that I can at least tell her when something big happens to them, but even then she'd rather call them to get some news...) And yet, she's registered on plenty of forums. Why?

Because Facebook and forums are a different entity altogether. That's what I felt ever since the beginning, and it hasn't changed. In fact, I'm of an even stronger opinion about it, and that's possibly the reason I've become more philosophical about possibly 'stealing' some Facebook features for Wedge. I would never have done that before, because I hated Facebook for being the site that "made what I wanted to do with Noisen" before Noisen did.
I started work on Noisen in 2007 and stopped it around 2009 after Facebook became popular in France. Back when I started Noisen, the place to be was Myspace, and I implemented tons of things to show that Myspace sucked. I wasn't the only one to think that, and I don't own a patent on my ideas, so obviously people at Facebook had the same ideas as I did, but more man-power to apply them, congrats to them for at least making a decent social network that tried to innovate for many years, and managed to do it most of the time.

Back to the topic... My girlfriend is registered on many forums that discuss RL issues that she's interested in, and some people over there use their relative anonymity to discuss matters that they just wouldn't discuss with their friends on Facebook. That is, Facebook is great for keeping in touch with your friends, but it doesn't allow you to be anonymous, and to have any decent, deep discussions, in the comfort of anonymity, or at least not having to wonder whether your friends will check out what 'Facebook page' you're subscribed to, etc.

To me, forums were the natural replacement to mailing lists and newsgroups, and just like e-mail itself, its very nature ensures that it's here to stay, even if it's "out of touch" with the current young generation. Well... I believe they'll come back to it, like many did when they left Facebook for Google+ and then came back or just left to use forums or nothing at all, etc... These things come and go, but what matters is that at least two people in the world are interested in discussing the same topic; thus, a forum has some interest to them, and it's a good thing that this type of software is out there.

Don't you think..?
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The problem is that we're at a crossroads. I don't see how we can meaningfully take the software in both directions, and as has become clear I'm #2 on the totem pole, so unless Nao wants to back off from going towards the Noisen type route and dive in head first with the CMS approach, there's no way the unified vision can work.
Oh, Pete, I don't know how to tell you... Where did I ever tell you that I was against going the CMS route?
Yes, I'm unsure about the idea of making the forum a plugin. But to me, Wedge is first and foremost a community manager, as in, the two most important tables in the database are _messages and _members. Messages are what a forum is about, while _members is what a community is about, and if there's something I've always hated on blogs and things like that, it's the difficulty of handling a user group, giving them fine-tuned permissions, making them feel they're part of something. It's always about yourself, and then allowing people to comment on what you have to say. Good communities make you feel part of something greater, and yet allow you much leeway to express yourself in a more private fashion, such as creating your own blog and giving it its own style.

All I wanted to say is: yes, I can see Wedge going to CMS route. But I've always postponed the idea of doing something big about that, because, FFS, we're three years into development, we have a product that rocks your socks off, and yes it's not 'perfect' yet, but postponing its release by a couple of years to make it supposedly more 'relevant' to the current day is not a good idea in my opinion, which is why I wanted to do it for Wedge 2.0, i.e. when our brand would be more established, and we'd have had time to determine whether it was something that other people wanted as much as we did.
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On forking and name changes
Just in case it wasn't entirely clear what was going on, Nao suggested that we might get to a point where we would fork, I'd take 'Wedge' and he'd take the other, under the new banner but that we'd still share code back and forth. The trouble is, as I said at the time, that just wouldn't work - there would be changes very quickly that would make that sort of thing just not work out very well. I've been there, I've seen it happen - heck, I doubt there's anything much that SMF 2.1, ElkArte and Wedge can all share in these days even though they are all descendants of the same 2.0 codebase.
Yet, even with a personal fork, I wouldn't have considered removing themes, because that would have made the fork too distant from yours; precisely for that reason. I just thought it might give you more freedom, and yes, I was thinking more about your freedom than yours, because deep inside I did feel that you were frustrated about a few things, and I figured that what I'd devised during your US trip could be an interesting direction to get the both of us to be happy about work again, but unfortunately the idea was not in the air long enough to take its grip inside of us, so it didn't help you change your mind about the whole thing. Bah. Maybe it would have failed, too, anyway...
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On hashing this out in public or private
It just sort of happened that it came out in public. Though in all honesty I'm not sure doing it privately would have made much of a difference to the end result, though the road would have been different.
I think it's all okay. I made the original thought thread member-only because it wasn't a pretty thing to see, but apart from that, everything else can be public IMHO, because we've always wanted to be open about these things. And I think that all of our users, Friends or not, care about the future of the project, especially in situations like these...
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I can't deal with submitting work only to have it dissected.
And again, it was never about finding the flaws in your code to piss you off, it was mostly about adding a bit of me to code that I was always ecstatic about, and I told you about that many times... I felt that if I could contribute to it, then it would be a good day's job, and there's nothing else to find in my actions...
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Would Van Gogh have painted the Sunflowers paintings if he knew Gauguin would come along and touch up the paintings afterwards?
Unrelated, but I've never heard of that ever happening... I just checked out Wikipedia, and it doesn't mention either; it only says that Gauguin loved the paintings, had two already, and was met with a refusal when he asked for a third copy.
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Would he, perhaps, have painted them differently? Would he, instead, perhaps have considered trying to paint and repaint them if he knew they would be scrutinised and tried to paint them perfectly before handing them over?
Well, if you want to talk about art...
- Novels, paintings, some music... These are individual art forms. Just like a tennis player usually doesn't have to worry about anyone else, these things represent someone's inner feelings best.
- Movies and other art forms that cost a lot of money will be a team work. The director always has to make compromises with the producers, executive producers, the writer, the director of photography, whoever has any kind of standing in the making process. They have full control over their gophers, PAs, whatever you could think of... (Usually actors, too, unless they're very popular, blah blah...) They make most of the decisions, but sometimes the producer(s) will override them. Sometimes, it becomes a battle of wits, sometimes a battle of popularity. When Ridley Scott released his own DC of Blade Runner, I absolutely adored it -- yet, I also love that the producer's cut exists, with the Deckard monolog and the Shining unused footage in the mountains at the end... Who made the best decision? I don't know, I can understand both... Ridley Scott made art that was meant to make you think; the producer made art that was meant to be enjoyable, without any further feelings.

Wedge is the kind of art that takes years to shape, and thus requires team work. So, I think it's safe to say that the movie example is better in our situation, and a painting is irrelevant...
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See, what people don't always remember is that the commit log is to all practical purposes, permanent. I'm going on record, in public, and for all purposes that matter, permanently saying "This isn't very good but it's the best I can do, I'm sorry". I'm flat out admitting I'm putting in sub-par code because I'm not good enough to do it any better.
$
And I do, too... Many times I've admitted I was unsure about a commit I was making. I was fine with it, though... Sometimes, you just can't do better than your best, and it'll still be better than not having anything at all.
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The fact I'm working on it in private is because after everything that's happened, I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE AS A CONTRIBUTOR.
Or maybe simply that it's easier to work alone sometimes, don't you think..?
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I actually can't trust anyone to work with any more at the code level. The only people I trust are those who provide me assets (e.g. textures, models) and I make them work in my code, because they don't write any code and I don't have to worry about it overlapping. And yes, I'm well aware that this is my problem to 'deal' with.
I'd have a good story to tell you about working with people who don't code... While I did have a pretty fine collaboration with a friend of mine, Miguel Samiez (who went on to become a full-fledged musician), to provide music for my game, and with KMJ fans who provided tilesets and other interesting assets, the only time I had a clash with a collaborator was when I was starting work on a new game -- I decided to contact someone whose art I loved, and commission graphics for the game. I was satisfied with the outcome, but said that, for the price I said, I should at the very least be sent the original pictures (they were just scanned and mailed to me), which I thought we'd agreed upon. Otherwise, it wasn't exactly a fair price he made me pay. He refused to do so, and I stopped collaborating with him, and decided not to use his pictures, even though I'd paid for them. That's how upset I was. In the end, I completely dropped the project because of that, and subsequently, retired from the gaming world altogether. Nowadays, I tend to think that things had simply run their course, and I was looking for a way out. That guy wasn't very nice to begin with, at least not very professional, but it was partly an excuse for me to call it quits.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the same thing happened with you with Wedge. And maybe, in the future, you'll end up doing the same again over another petty issue that you'll see as a grave matter, because in the spur of the moment, anything would hurt, and it's just best to leave things behind, maybe to come back to them later, if needed.
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The saddest part is that even when I disentangle myself, baring myself in a way I just do NOT do normally, being more honest with myself than I have been for a very long time, too many people still don't get it.
I get it... And I'm okay that you're leaving. Simply, I don't think you're leaving for the right reason.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
Forgot to mention... Yes, I suppose a signed CLA would be nice, but I fear we're going to start wondering what to put in the CLA, ah ah... :lol:
Pick a CLA, if the terms aren't unpleasant, I'll sign it. E.g. the Apache CLA will be fine.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
And early on, we determined that we'd check each other's commits as thoroughly as we could... Whenever I made a mistake, you were there to point it out, for which I believe I was grateful..? Part of not being my own boss was that it took a load off me, and I was grateful that you'd check my commits. In exchange, I always checked yours of course... Except for the few times where you committed some huge changes, such as adding the plugin system. Or when Dragooon added his notification system -- it was a huge thing, but as it was UI stuff as well, I took it upon myself to make it as good as possible. I don't know... It just feels natural, to me, that if I can help, I should. I just didn't know you didn't consider it help but, something like an insult, IIUC..?
The reality is that I'm just not the same as you, and as I've said before I can't live up to your standards. But if you'll notice, what did I complain about? I complained about the things I don't personally mind being picked apart in my own stuff, i.e. bugs and major performance issues. If there's a bug, squish it. If there are big performance issues, let's fix them. But I don't recall ever quibbling over any code style changes, or anything like that about your commits - they just weren't an issue.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
You're so mistaken about that... :-/ You really did your part, and did it great. You did all of the things that I suck at (coding things 'because they need to be done' rather than 'because I want to do them', managing the growing community, doing tech watch on important matters...)
That's the stuff I'm good at, doing the stuff that needs to be done. And that's fine because there is generally a sense of satisfaction about it, but the problem is, when I raised issues about the cool stuff that came out of this stuff, it was an issue.

For example all the stuff relating to themes. I wasn't against removing themes because of some backwards compatibility. I was against removing themes because of a very real and practical issue around themers adding their own styles.

If you remove themes, 1) it absolutely prevents themers adding their own language strings and 2) it absolutely prevents replacing templates on a large scale. Sure, there are some nods made in the other direction with <we:cat> and <we:title> but a themer simply isn't going to be able to go to town and really change up the look.

I see from the changelog you've made some more strides, but let me ask you this. You've seen Crossing Overland, with the menu down the side, with the other stuff that's in the theme. The ONLY thing managed by the sources code is the extra subtitle on the menu, everything else is in a custom theme.

Can that be recreated with just skins? Answer: no because the JavaScript would have to be reworked to make the menu work differently.

That's the point I was getting at: killing off themes and pushing it to skins means a designer can only change the markup they're given, they can't really go to town with new markup which is a considerable hit on flexibility.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
If I'm spending time answering your post, it's not to draw you back into it -- it's to at the very least pay a frigging homage to the work you did on Wedge for the last three years; everything you did shall be remembered, and it just won't be the same anymore. There are some things that will be done in a less adequate way, but it'll just have to be. I'm okay with that. I just wanted to say thanks for all the fish, that's all. And good luck on your game.
We did some good stuff. And I'd love to see some good stuff from this project in the future because you don't need me. You never needed me, not really. You have the power to take Wedge in any direction you choose now, whatever works for where you want to take it, and for those who will undoubtedly follow you.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
In my case, it's a bit of a mixed bag... It all depends on what you're talking about with me. I can be annoyingly quiet (usually meaning I'm close to taking my phone from my pocket and playing a game of Scrabble, like I always do in these awkward moments... Yes, I'm the awkward moment all by myself), or if you get met started on pop culture -- movies, TV, anime, obscure music, games, whatever -- you'll just regret you did, because I just can't shut up. I'm a living iMDb, I'm a walking Wikipedia, everything I learn online I need to share it with everybody. Milady learned a long time ago how to just ignore these moments, but her friends, not so much... ;)
I guess I'm quite the same online as I'm IRL, but your mileage may vary.
Anyway, it's unrelated to the point...
No, it's not unrelated. Given the right context, I'm like that. The trouble is, the list of topics upon which I can be drawn into conversation is much, much smaller, despite my apparent extrovert tendencies online. That's the thing people don't understand about online conversations vs offline ones; I'm free to go away and think about what I want to say, and how to say it. I've read this post half a dozen times this evening before I replied to it.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
I really don't know where performance can be gained; first of all, the fact that you claim to have increased performance just after you started work on your private project-- it implies that the changes weren't that many, and yet, I had a look at some of the basic files, and I really don't know how much data you can take out of them, and apart from the notification system which I understand you wanted to load dynamically (and I've never been against the idea), I really don't see what can be improved in that respect, so... I dunno.
Firstly, accept the notion that you're going in a direction where you're loading stuff only on demand. In my world, primarily a CMS, I don't need a censor all the time. Inside the forum, perhaps, but not more generally. So I can hive it off somewhere else. And then only load it when I actually need it.

Secondly, in 5.5 and up, you're not dealing with the same mentality as before. File I/O is somewhat less of an issue than it was before because the idea of loading large chunks of file to save on I/O for stuff you always want is just not so applicable.

The truly huge change in 5.5 is the inclusion of Zend OpCache. This means you're getting an opcode cache that's primarily memory backed. Which means you skip the disk I/O phase, and pull from memory. More importantly, it works like any other cache: big chunks displace smaller chunks when you get past a decent percentage of fullness.

Keeping the files a bit smaller, then, is a major difference. Especially when you typically already consume 10MB per page load just in general approach.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
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I'm sorry that you felt that way; I try to listen to what you have to say, but this year perhaps I failed doing a good job at it. I did what I could, but it probably wasn't enough, or even 'my best'.
This last year we've both had stuff going on that has made it hard to focus. I'm sorry I wasn't more forthcoming either, because this might have ended a little differently otherwise.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
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I sincerely dread the day when Wedge is let loose and designers take one look at it and try to figure out how to make it all work. Templates being piecemeal unlike SMF's monoliths, they'll have to deal with that.
And they'll learn to love it.. ;)
Eh, I don't know that they'll love it. They'll deal with it, simple as that.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
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The CSS preparser... they'll have to deal with that too but I like to believe they will ultimately find it useful to have that rather than not.
80% of the job can be done using regular CSS files; I mean, you can very well include an external CSS file and be happy with using brackets in it. Or you can modify the 'main' files, and in that case you're already in an environment where the Wess syntax is being used, and you just adapt to it. I'll be honest, even I make some mistakes in my code from time to time -- just earlier today, I was yelling at my @if test not working and being included as such (in plain view) in the compiled CSS, when I realized it wasn't a bug in the parser, but rather I simply forgot to add the @endif, which as an instruction contradicts the nested structure of Wess files, but is needed because an @if block can contain un-indented code and thus must be treated separately. There are some hiccups from time to time, but overall I think all of this is for the best...
I could possibly tweak Wess to allow for brackets to be used in addition to the Wess syntax within the same file, but I never felt the urge to do it, really.
Firstly, there is evidence to suggest that themers don't like having to deal with specific CSS variations for a given system due to preparsers - like XenForo discovered - but I think Wess is strong enough that it'll overcome the issues.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
Since I'll eventually be removing the theme system (as discussed elsewhere-- this is a good example of something I always wanted to do but I was certain you'd be against the idea so I never even took the time to discuss it, so you see, you're not the only one who's afraid of their partner's reaction ;)), this will be a different story altogether.
I'll probably create a couple more skins which, like Warm, will attempt to show how much power the skin system currently holds. Yes, I really think it's possible to do pretty much everything skin-less themes could do.
I was against the idea for reasons I'd explained multiple times, including earlier in this post. I'm skeptical of the claim that you can do 'pretty much everything skin-less themes could do' because there are an awful lot of things that just aren't covered in that.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
It's easier to listen when you're meeting face-to-face. I always have a problem with online communication... :-/
That's why I was disappointed never having the opportunity to meet you IRL, I guess. Or even communicate over Hangouts or something...
See, that's the problem... I don't like face to face meetings. I much, much prefer online communication. I'm rather inept socially in person, because my brain thinks faster than my mouth and I trip up on words so much. Heck, I'm not even on Skype.

That said, I think it might be nice to let this stuff go, and in a while when it's all settled and we're doing what we're doing, to just meet up, shoot the breeze. Not as would-be/wannabe/former partners in crime, but two geeks that are just friends, you know?
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
I think the reason it worked flawlessly over the first couple of years is that (1) we still thought we had time to release Wedge so we just set aside a lot of the uneasy discussions we might have wanted to have, and (2) we were both involved at the same level, and neither of us had yet to experience a breakdown or anything related. Life happens.
That sounds quite reasonable, even likely.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
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Two people may be a crowd when it comes to a decision, but saying that one has to take the lead is not right. One took the lead in the absence of decision and just carried on with what he wanted to do despite the opposition.
And was that a bad thing to do...? Realistically, I mean..?
Um, yes... it just meant that I felt like I'd made all my points for nothing, as though nothing I'd said had made the slightest bit of difference.
Quote from Nao on September 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM
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SMF's problem is that it's 'just a forum', Wedge's is that it's 'primarily a forum', and that pure forums are finding it very hard to compete these days because most people use Facebook and Google+ for what used to be pure forums.
Not everyone. For instance, Milady isn't on Facebook... Not only she's not on it, but she hates the idea of even opening an account over there to keep in touch with her friends. (I've friended everyone in her circle, so that I can at least tell her when something big happens to them, but even then she'd rather call them to get some news...) And yet, she's registered on plenty of forums. Why?
Not everyone == most people ;)

Seriously though, there has been a mass defection to Facebook and Google+ over the last few years. All the forum packages are in decline, I've even heard from phpBB and MyBB folks that are seeing a decline in users for this very reason.

For a lot of discussions, a group or page on Facebook will be enough, especially in response to something like a band or similar because they'll already have a presence on FB and don't really need to open up a forum for anything else.

As for why people avoid FB, for most people it's mostly because there aren't really the controls around content or privacy the way there are in forums. I can register on a forum and be effectively anonymous should I choose. It's not a single overarching thing where my family, my friends, my professional acquaintances and whatnot all get smushed together unlike Facebook.

There's a lot more to it but that's where it starts. On Facebook, you're you. People who see me on Facebook see that I don't really say a lot and consume it largely as a passive news resource for family, friends etc. and I engage with people on forums because the format is better for that.

Getting back on track though, more and more requests on sm.org are about bridging to WP or using it alongside an existing site, rather than it being the site as a whole. Then include all the people who add portals and knowledge bases and article systems and you realise that the days of forums just being forums aren't merely numbered, they're already practically gone and we're racing to catch up with the way the world has already changed around us. Forums as we know them are already over a decade old, older than blogs, older than wikis, older than social networks. They're still around because they still have a place, but that place is smaller and peoples' needs are changing.

As for people coming back to forums, I've been saying since 2011 that there's going to be a shift back towards forums as people start to reclaim their privacy. While I didn't predict PRISM, since 2011 I was speculating 2014 as the time when forums would reclaim some of the lost ground. While the PRISM stuff has died down a touch now, there is a swing back towards forums. I'm just expecting it more en masse next year.
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To me, forums were the natural replacement to mailing lists and newsgroups, and just like e-mail itself, its very nature ensures that it's here to stay, even if it's "out of touch" with the current young generation. Well... I believe they'll come back to it, like many did when they left Facebook for Google+ and then came back or just left to use forums or nothing at all, etc... These things come and go, but what matters is that at least two people in the world are interested in discussing the same topic; thus, a forum has some interest to them, and it's a good thing that this type of software is out there.

Don't you think..?
Oh, I've never doubted that the software needs to exist. I'm just challenging the notion that it has to be the primary focus of the software. I'm asserting the notion that a piece of software that allows you to run a website should allow for a forum but not be a forum with some other stuff integrated in to it.

It's worth taking a look around the different forum software boards to see how often people request CMS features. I'm just starting from the premise of having a basic CMS with a forum module. It doesn't need to be a Joomla killer, hell it doesn't even need to be a WP killer, it just needs to be able to be more than a forum.
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Oh, Pete, I don't know how to tell you... Where did I ever tell you that I was against going the CMS route?
Yes, I'm unsure about the idea of making the forum a plugin. But to me, Wedge is first and foremost a community manager, as in, the two most important tables in the database are _messages and _members. Messages are what a forum is about, while _members is what a community is about, and if there's something I've always hated on blogs and things like that, it's the difficulty of handling a user group, giving them fine-tuned permissions, making them feel they're part of something. It's always about yourself, and then allowing people to comment on what you have to say. Good communities make you feel part of something greater, and yet allow you much leeway to express yourself in a more private fashion, such as creating your own blog and giving it its own style.
The point where I suggested it, I forget where it was but it was on this site, and you were very hostile to the idea of having a CMS with 'the best forum plugin' and would much rather have the forum as the core and content stuff around it. At least, that's how it seemed, and after that I just dropped the idea.

A blog is a very different beast from a forum. A forum is essentially a democratic concept, where anyone in the community can have a say and speak their mind, whereas a blog only allows for the privileged few to speak their mind and let everyone else comment. True, a forum board can be used as a blog, and that becomes mostly a matter of permissions and UI juggling, but it's a very different beast to market and to work with as a whole.

Messages are what a forum is *made* of. It's not what a forum is *about*. There are other components to a community, where messages don't necessarily make a huge difference. I look at the site I use to discuss development; the shoutbox has nearly 400,000 entries, while the forum has barely 3,000 posts, mostly which just summarise and formalise what the shoutbox had in it at the time. This is not a large community, sure, but it is a type of community, and the forum is a fraction of it. It's a stepping stone to something else.
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All I wanted to say is: yes, I can see Wedge going to CMS route. But I've always postponed the idea of doing something big about that, because, FFS, we're three years into development, we have a product that rocks your socks off, and yes it's not 'perfect' yet, but postponing its release by a couple of years to make it supposedly more 'relevant' to the current day is not a good idea in my opinion, which is why I wanted to do it for Wedge 2.0, i.e. when our brand would be more established, and we'd have had time to determine whether it was something that other people wanted as much as we did.
The main reason I didn't want to run a release at this stage was simply because of how much stuff I felt was unfinished - not 'waiting for perfect'. The permissions stuff is still a mess. The media area still needs a serious (IMHO) overhaul, and to me that seemed like it needed to be done before 1.0 but I didn't know what to do with it. I just knew I didn't like it.
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Yet, even with a personal fork, I wouldn't have considered removing themes, because that would have made the fork too distant from yours; precisely for that reason.
That's the problem with trying to keep two disparate codebases in sync, they will inevitably drift apart.
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I just thought it might give you more freedom, and yes, I was thinking more about your freedom than yours, because deep inside I did feel that you were frustrated about a few things, and I figured that what I'd devised during your US trip could be an interesting direction to get the both of us to be happy about work again, but unfortunately the idea was not in the air long enough to take its grip inside of us, so it didn't help you change your mind about the whole thing. Bah. Maybe it would have failed, too, anyway...
It was a good idea in a lot of ways, but I'm sure it would have failed for the reason above, we would have tried to keep things in step enough to be able to reuse each other's work and we would both have been hamstrung by it in time.

It would have gone one of two ways, either it would have meant a complete separation much as we're at now, or it would have ended up diverging and converging after a while and a ton of work to bring them back under one roof (which would invariably have lead to a lot of rewrites)
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And again, it was never about finding the flaws in your code to piss you off, it was mostly about adding a bit of me to code that I was always ecstatic about, and I told you about that many times... I felt that if I could contribute to it, then it would be a good day's job, and there's nothing else to find in my actions...
Oh, I know that. At least, I think I know that. But my self esteem doesn't really care *why* it's being pulled apart, simply that the end result is a B-minus grade.
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Would Van Gogh have painted the Sunflowers paintings if he knew Gauguin would come along and touch up the paintings afterwards?
Unrelated, but I've never heard of that ever happening... I just checked out Wikipedia, and it doesn't mention either; it only says that Gauguin loved the paintings, had two already, and was met with a refusal when he asked for a third copy.
Bah, argument by analogy doesn't work. Point is, Van Gogh did his paintings the way he saw fit. If he knew someone else might come along after and change them even subtly, he would paint them differently. I only mentioned Gaugain because the article about the Sunflowers points out that Van Gogh gave them to him.

I couldn't really find a better analogy, and I did want to make some kind of a meta reference, knowing one of the largest topics in the private board. It made me smile a little to make a private reference.
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Wedge is the kind of art that takes years to shape, and thus requires team work. So, I think it's safe to say that the movie example is better in our situation, and a painting is irrelevant...
Oh, it required team work, but I didn't entirely feel like I was doing good at being in a team. And yeah, I didn't find a better analogy to try and explain where I'm coming from.
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$
And I do, too... Many times I've admitted I was unsure about a commit I was making. I was fine with it, though... Sometimes, you just can't do better than your best, and it'll still be better than not having anything at all.
But therein lies the problem. Committing something subpar was wrong and trying to commit perfection meant I committed nothing while trying to make it perfect. My best just isn't the same level as yours, ultimately.
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The fact I'm working on it in private is because after everything that's happened, I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE AS A CONTRIBUTOR.
Or maybe simply that it's easier to work alone sometimes, don't you think..?
To a point. Certainly when working alone I don't have the feelings of inadequacy. I can just enjoy working on code for its own sake and it doesn't matter if I don't commit it, and it doesn't matter if I don't finish it and it doesn't matter if I abandon it. I don't feel under any pressure to work on things, I don't feel guilty if I go to do something... anything... else, and I don't feel like I'm being judged every time I do do something. Being able to explore my own direction is really just a bonus in that respect.
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I'd have a good story to tell you about working with people who don't code... While I did have a pretty fine collaboration with a friend of mine, Miguel Samiez (who went on to become a full-fledged musician), to provide music for my game, and with KMJ fans who provided tilesets and other interesting assets, the only time I had a clash with a collaborator was when I was starting work on a new game -- I decided to contact someone whose art I loved, and commission graphics for the game. I was satisfied with the outcome, but said that, for the price I said, I should at the very least be sent the original pictures (they were just scanned and mailed to me), which I thought we'd agreed upon. Otherwise, it wasn't exactly a fair price he made me pay. He refused to do so, and I stopped collaborating with him, and decided not to use his pictures, even though I'd paid for them. That's how upset I was. In the end, I completely dropped the project because of that, and subsequently, retired from the gaming world altogether. Nowadays, I tend to think that things had simply run their course, and I was looking for a way out. That guy wasn't very nice to begin with, at least not very professional, but it was partly an excuse for me to call it quits.
That sucks.
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Perhaps, just perhaps, the same thing happened with you with Wedge. And maybe, in the future, you'll end up doing the same again over another petty issue that you'll see as a grave matter, because in the spur of the moment, anything would hurt, and it's just best to leave things behind, maybe to come back to them later, if needed.
I see a problem. You're thinking I see this as a sudden petty issue that escalated out of hand.

Let me show you something. This wasn't public knowledge. Some months ago I made a mod of some of the anti spam stuff in Wedge and released it to sm.org.

What most people never saw was the commentary in the installer XML file. Here it is, untouched.

Code: [Select]
<!-- Why am I contributing this to SMF? A variety of reasons, I guess.
Partly that I still care about the SMF community, partly that I still want to see it thrive.

Partly that I'm pissed off by a general feeling of unappreciation when a co-developer
doesn't understand that every time they want to rewrite my commits for not being
thrifty enough in the byte department, it just makes me not want to commit any more.
Plus, premature optimisation is the devil.

So, I'm porting some of my ideas from Wedge to SMF. The bridges haven't been entirely burned.

I doubt anyone will actually see this comment, and that's cool too.
It was a nice way to vent. Arantor 21/04/13 -->

<!-- NB, I'd use hooks if I could. But I can't. So I won't. So there. -->
<!-- Also note, the licence of this mod is CC-ND.
You can use it on whatever site you like but you can't redistribute a derivative without my permission.
This includes SMF, by the way. No sneaky incorporating it into 2.1. It's also firmly not a Contribution
under the terms of the CLA signed so there's no licence for reuse that way either. -->

Note the date. I forget exactly what it was back in April that annoyed the piss out of me, but something did. So I made a mod of something I liked in Wedge, released it for SMF. I made sure to protect myself - and Wedge - with the way I did it, since SMF can't just incorporate this into SMF 2.x without my permission.

Interestingly the commit log from 21/4 (r2066) does actually mention that I was AWOL and had been for a day or so at least... This would have been in the middle of the thousands of lines of warning system rewrite that as I tried to tell people was close to giving me a breakdown all on its own.
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The saddest part is that even when I disentangle myself, baring myself in a way I just do NOT do normally, being more honest with myself than I have been for a very long time, too many people still don't get it.
I get it... And I'm okay that you're leaving. Simply, I don't think you're leaving for the right reason.
That comment wasn't actually directed at you, but everyone else who seems to say that I should just man up and accept that this is how it should be. It is slightly ironic that Wedge itself was founded on the notion that we shouldn't just accept how things are being on the wrong end of a team relationship that wasn't working, but that's what I'm being asked to accept 'for the good of the project'.

I understand why you think it is I've done what I've done. I think I disagree and that's cool too. The bottom line is that I've outlined why I don't want to contribute any more, and I can't make you accept it as my perspective on things. Either you accept it or you don't, and no-one can ask any more of you than that.

The last few days have been very interesting. There are people that believe I should go and be lead developer for SMF in the hopes of rescuing it but I don't really see that working for much the same reasons, and I feel bad about working on my own project in light of the comments made here, but I still love the idea of doing different things with the forum and CMS concept. I guess I'll just have to bend over and accept something in the end :(

But anyway, we've both said what we had to say and I don't think there's anything else left to say.

Other than to the guy who called my whining pointless, thanks, I needed that.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 02:54 AM
Quote from Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Other than to the guy who called my whining pointless, thanks, I needed that.
At least you don't oppose to the "whining". Fine.

I, as a user, am pretty new here and have no fcking clue what's going on behind the scenes, but I, as an open-source dev, pretty much know what it means if team members have a different vision of a software's (near or not-so-near) future. Don't get me wrong about my "thought" you referenced to. Still, a dialog like yours is probably nothing that should be led in public IMNSHO.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:17 AM
I beg to differ.

Most of the people here have been here for a long time.
They are part of the Wedge community.
In my HONEST opinion, they DO deserve to know ALL of what is going on.

I've known both Arantor and Nao for a while on SM.org and they are both great coders and great support people.
They have done wonders as it is with Wedge, and this breakup of their coding team is a very big loss to the coding world.

As for your comment forumsearch0r, not only was it rude and uncalled for, especially with the fact that you know nothing of what is going on here, but it is also one of the most tasteless, arrogant shows of brainlessness I've seen in years.

Sorry Nao and Arantor for speaking my mind like this, but I really had no choice, with how I am about stuff like this.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 04:19 AM
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:17 AM
As for your comment forumsearch0r, not only was it rude and uncalled for
Interestingly, you just mentioned this is an open community. In an open community, opposite ways of thinking should not be expressed by newcomers?

I see.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:24 AM
To an extent.
But what you said was over the line, in my opinion.
You basically told Arantor to stop whining and accept what he feels he should not, because he actually has a clue to what has been going on here, unlike you.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 04:27 AM
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:24 AM
You basically told Arantor to stop whining and accept what he feels he should not
I told Arantor nothing until he poked be because of my loose thought in the Thoughts area, so I guess I should come back to him concerning this. Well, as I said I know the feeling of having very different people work together. No offense towards Arantor, except he should have been stronger than this and just leave Nao unattended.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:32 AM
1. Your comment in Thoughts is what I'm talking about!
2. There is a lot more here than you or I, even know.
3. Arantor has NO obligation to continue here, if he chooses not to.
4. Who are you to even say what HE should do????

In my opinion, what should be done, is what is best for those two people, not Wedge.
If they need to stop working to save a friendship, then as far as I'm concerned, DO IT!

Friendships are more important than a project.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 04:33 AM
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:32 AM
1. Your comment in Thoughts is what I'm talking about!
I haven't told him to stop there. Please read properly.
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:32 AM
3. Arantor has NO obligation to continue here, if he chooses not to.
Where have I said so? Please read properly.
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:32 AM
4. Who are you to even say what HE should do????
Who are you to even say what I should do?

I did not tell him what to do. I just advised him what I would do if I was he. I told you I know such situations. Now calm down.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:40 AM
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No offense towards Arantor, except he should have been stronger than this and just leave Nao unattended.
Where I'm from, that is considered saying he should stay, even if he feels he should not.

Don't get me wrong, I wish he would stay, but I know he can't and I understand it.

Also, I'm not heated... Not by a long shot. ;) Just trying to get you to understand that there is a lot more to this than what you have read.
More to it than the rest of the community has read, too.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 04:41 AM
Quote from BurkeKnight on September 6th, 2013, 04:40 AM
Where I'm from, that is considered saying he should stay, even if he feels he should not.
Oh. Well, English is not nearly my primary language. What I wanted to say is: If there's something between them that can't be fixed in the foreseeable feature, he should just pull the plug (of his contributions, not of Wedge, that is).
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 04:47 AM
Right, I've had enough of this.

Firstly, BurkeKnight, thank you for your kind words, they're appreciated.

forumsearch0r, please tell me what open source projects you contribute so I can firmly avoid them. Also, before diving into the deep end about telling me how I should or should not conduct my business, please take care to read and digest everything before speaking because now you just made yourself look stupid.

See, the entire thing around this is I'm leaving the team and no longer contributing. That doesn't prevent Wedge from continuing, it just means it will do it without me, for all the reasons I've stated here. Also, telling someone who is considered to be depressed to just snap out of it is actually making it worse, along with all the comments about how I should essentially just man up. Just proves to me that you didn't bother to read the points I was making. Another on that list, then.

And for someone for whom English is 'not nearly their primary language', you use it very proficiently, far better than many native speakers.

The decision has been made, I'm not contributing to Wedge any further. In other words, all that heated argument just to realise it was what I'd already said several days before. Congratulations, hope you feel happy.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 6th, 2013, 04:49 AM
I'm not entirely sure if I should feel happy about this. Probably less, though.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: NonSecwitter on September 6th, 2013, 02:25 PM
Quote from Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 04:47 AM
Also, telling someone who is considered to be depressed to just snap out of it is actually making it worse, along with all the comments about how I should essentially just man up.
Truth to that.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best.

I hope this whole conversation helped relieve a lot of pent up anger or frustration for @Nao and @Arantor so they can both go on there way with a lighter mood ;)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Oracle on September 6th, 2013, 10:53 PM
Apologies for not responding earlier guys, ive had some dramas of my own. Rather than comment on each point raised ive narrowed the whole argument down to this. > Bearing in mind I'm not taking sides in this.
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Control versus contribution
Ironically, had Nao outlined to me on day one that this is how he wanted to work, I could probably have made that work. It was always stated that we were equals and yet we never really acted as equals.
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I think the reason it worked flawlessly over the first couple of years is that (1) we still thought we had time to release Wedge so we just set aside a lot of the uneasy discussions we might have wanted to have, and (2) we were both involved at the same level, and neither of us had yet to experience a breakdown or anything related. Life happens.
Nao stated both of you were involved @ the same level which to me is the core of Petes argument, what I cant understand is how you Nao, assumed and retained control of the overall project when Pete claimed he only went AWOL for a few days and the rest of the time he was preoccupied with sorting out a flood of error messages etc. > Still on board so to speak?
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Two people may be a crowd when it comes to a decision, but saying that one has to take the lead is not right. One took the lead in the absence of decision and just carried on with what he wanted to do despite the opposition.
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And was that a bad thing to do...? Realistically, I mean..?
Well apparently so as you didnt alert Pete to your actions beforehand as you agreed you would? This culminated in the eventual separation of your partnership as he always felt he was being shortchanged and his worthiness as a so called equal deteriorated.
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On where we came from, and maybe where we're going

Nao always made it clear that he wanted to push towards what Noisen is, essentially a form of localised social network
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Technically, for those who don't know of the story... My idea of my contributions to Wedge was to integrate into it every single thing I'd developed on SMF for myself, i.e. Aeva Media and Noisen features. AeMe was easy, it was just a mod, but I never really got around to overhauling it, and that's a mistake I made. Noisen was more complicated. I made a huge (800KB..?) patch file of all differences between vanilla SMF and Noisen, and then proceeded to apply all of these features, one by one, to Wedge. It turned out, halfway into it, that many features couldn't be integrated as such, either because the codebase had already become too different, or because the code became unneeded because of internal improvements, or simply because it was a lot to do. The most important thing to me was integrating the privacy system, and I think I did all of it over the years... I mean, it was mainly about adding some code to all MySQL queries involving the topic table, but it was still a bitch. Over the years, I moved away from my desire to adapt Noisen into Wedge, but I still have plans to use Wedge over there, because Wedge rocks, and I'm willing to lose all of the Noisen features I didn't integrate into it, at least for a time.
Surely the pair of you agreed on overall aspirations for the project  ie Naos desire on Noisen etc and Petes inkling to introduce new features for Wedge? And was a written agreement reached for the so called partnership it seems not...which is somewhat outrageous given you guys have never met personally and were continents apart..Standard procedure for any merger I would have thought. Maybe it was deemed unnecessary @ the time but you would have known the project was going to span @ least 3 or so years so yeah should have been set in stone. Lesson learnt there I guess.
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The saddest part is that even when I disentangle myself, baring myself in a way I just do NOT do normally, being more honest with myself than I have been for a very long time, too many people still don't get it.
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I get it... And I'm okay that you're leaving. Simply, I don't think you're leaving for the right reason.
Beg to differ Nao I believe the forgoing is the reason why and I hope Im not treading on anyones toes, but from what I gather his predicament @ the time was legit. All said and done now but lesson learnt for anyone out there getting into partnerships of any kind, the need for formalization is paramount.

Open lines of communication appear also to have fallen short of ideal!
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: markham on September 7th, 2013, 08:32 AM
At 63 I am probably the oldest member here and as I was brought up in the pre-politically correct age, I'm going to call it as I see it; if I unintentionally ruffle a few feathers, then so be it.

Firstly, both Nao and Pete should be thanked not only for their tireless work on the Wedge project but for being so forthright and open with each other and with us. Pete's a self-confessed introvert - though you wouldn't know it from his prolific postings - and I suspect it took him a lot of courage to expose his true inner feelings in a semi-public forum; Nao is more garrulous. Both have proven track records as software developers, certainly for SMF type software and both are perfectionists - Nao is well-known for trimming every redundant byte from JS scripts, for example, and his Mahjong game is simply beautiful.

There appears to be some criticism of Pete's fewer code commits whilst Nao commits more frequently. It seems to me that this simply a difference in style: Pete, being more introverted, keeps his code 'close to his chest' whilst he hones and perfects it; it's a matter of pride to him that code he commits works as flawlessly as possible. Nao is more of a 'write-commit-test-edit-recommit' person. Neither of their personal work flows is better or worse than the other, they're just different approaches. But was it really necessary for Pete to feel that he was being treated like some errant schoolboy whose homework was being marked by his teacher and thereby undermine his self-esteem to the point where he feels he can no longer work on the project?

One issue that has cropped-up very recently is that of restricting the customization of Wedge's look and feel. Nao has designed some very attractive themes but - and here I agree with Pete - the only major difference between two sites running Wedge may be the colours employed and that would be a Big Mistake, in my view. It could well be, for example, that a Forum owner doesn't want the standard sidebar to appear in "Message View" and only on the "Board View" ('Home' Page) - that would certainly be my personal preference FWIW.

Given Pete's knowledge, experience and amount of thought he has put into Wedge, as well as his suggestions for making it better, I find it a very sad state of affairs that he feels he can no longer contribute to the project. I truly hope that he and Nao can come to some understanding which would allow Pete to continue participating in an advisory role - if nothing else. And if he does, Nao, I also hope you will listen to him and pay heed to his advice!

As for the gentleman who suggested that Pete should "snap out of it" and "man up", I have nothing but contempt for those remarks and I suggest that you, sir, show some humility and compassion for your fellow man.

Finally, @Arantor: Pete, thank you for your kind words, encouragement and advice last year when I was developing the Slideshow. I still have hopes that you will incorporate it as a Wedge Plug-In!
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Guess I'll have to reply this, at some point...
Quote from Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Pick a CLA, if the terms aren't unpleasant, I'll sign it. E.g. the Apache CLA will be fine.
Sure, why not. But as the Apache CLA only applies to future contributions, I suppose you'll have to pre-date it..?
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The reality is that I'm just not the same as you, and as I've said before I can't live up to your standards.
But my standards are mine, and only apply to myself. What you should say is, you can't live with the idea that I'm modifying your code. Except that sometimes I have to (oversights, bugs...), and other times... Well, it's just cosmetic. What should you be proud of? How you indent your code, or how it does something awesome or innovative..?
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If you remove themes, 1) it absolutely prevents themers adding their own language strings
Hmm, not really..?
Although I have yet to figure this one out, I had in mind something really, really simple...
/wedge/
/wedge/sources/
/wedge/skins/my_skin/
/wedge/languages/my_skin/
You just upload multiple folders to your site.
The skins folder contains your CSS and PHP stuff, and in your PHP code, you can simply declare a loadLanguage()...
It may not be super-practical, but it's no more unusable than the SMF way, I'd say.
And, knowing myself-- I'll probably even add a setting allowing for skins to load some language files automatically on every page. I already have a <language> setting IIRC (determining what languages the skin accounts for in the CSS files), so I'll just have to add a new one like <loadLanguage>, or something. As long as it's in beta, I can still change that kind of thing, and update all skin files manually...
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and 2) it absolutely prevents replacing templates on a large scale. Sure, there are some nods made in the other direction with <we:cat> and <we:title> but a themer simply isn't going to be able to go to town and really change up the look.
If it's absolutely needed, then they'll tell me what I should change into a macro.
If it's not, then it's unlikely they'll simply update all template files for the sake of updating all template files.
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I see from the changelog you've made some more strides, but let me ask you this. You've seen Crossing Overland, with the menu down the side, with the other stuff that's in the theme. The ONLY thing managed by the sources code is the extra subtitle on the menu, everything else is in a custom theme.

Can that be recreated with just skins?
Can't see why not..?
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Answer: no because the JavaScript would have to be reworked to make the menu work differently.
And here, I can't see what JS is needed exactly to make it work. I don't see any JS at hand here...
And even then-- <script include="mycustomskin">, and you're done... (??)
If someone needs an object method to be rewritable, I can declare it outside the scope, so that it can be redefined/overloaded/prototyped.
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That's the point I was getting at: killing off themes and pushing it to skins means a designer can only change the markup they're given, they can't really go to town with new markup which is a considerable hit on flexibility.
Macros
Custom JS
Custom PHP
Custom CSS
Final HTML raw replacement
Dunno what can be done with themes, that skins could not do.
Of course, it's another way of handling things. And it needs documenting. That's where skins are weak. There's a basic documentation in Warm/skin.xml (the only thing I actually really worked on documenting, unlike Wess!), but it could be better, I suppose. I'll improve it as questions come and go.
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We did some good stuff. And I'd love to see some good stuff from this project in the future because you don't need me. You never needed me, not really.
I needed your expertise on many domains that I'm very weak at (database, security, UI, JS, and so on -- and yes, I got a bit better at UI, and I quickly realized I wasn't as bad at JS as I feared), and quite simply, I needed your enthusiasm. Two people is better than one. Oh, just a simple example... These days, Milady and I try to jog at least once a week, sometimes twice a week. We started slow with 12mn rounds, and now we're at 30mn rounds. We're still bad at this, but we're still doing it, because what matters is that we try. Milady told me today, after our jogging session, that she enjoyed running with me, because she did 45mn sessions many years ago, and stopped after a year because she was fucking bored. I told her, "you need me because you feel better when you're so tired and you see that I'm in an even worse shape; and you need me because you want to encourage me to keep you with you when you're feeling better." She agreed with that entirely. Sometimes, being two just means that when someone is not at their best, they can count on someone else to fill up their job, and when they're at their best, they're happy that someone is encouraging them.
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You have the power to take Wedge in any direction you choose now, whatever works for where you want to take it, and for those who will undoubtedly follow you.
Sure. Removing themes would be a bold move, one in the likes of your own past bold moves, so I guess it's like the name change-- a way to make it clear it's "mine" from now on. However, all I want, at this point, is to finish the dozen or so features I want to finish (better privacy settings, better UI for blogs, etc.), and then release it to the world. I think that's what's going to make it clear that it's mine: I've always been willing to release it, because I am confident people will love it, as flawed as it is. ;)

Anyway!
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I'm free to go away and think about what I want to say, and how to say it. I've read this post half a dozen times this evening before I replied to it.
Ah, well, I tend to reply as I'm reading. I didn't read this post until now (I did read your previous long post entirely before replying, but that's more an exception), because I will usually be discouraged to reply after I've read. "Too many things to say, will take me hours to reply..."
So, I guess my posts tend to be seen as hot-headed, more spontaneous, unlike yours. Figures.
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Firstly, accept the notion that you're going in a direction where you're loading stuff only on demand. In my world, primarily a CMS, I don't need a censor all the time. Inside the forum, perhaps, but not more generally. So I can hive it off somewhere else. And then only load it when I actually need it.
Okay, so, the censor code... It's less than 5KB, including all of the fancy scramble stuff. Or just 1.2KB for the core function. I don't see autoloading it as being very helpful for performance...? Heck, at worst I could simply have it in a Subs-Censor.php file, and loadSource it from within Subs-BBC if needed...
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Keeping the files a bit smaller, then, is a major difference. Especially when you typically already consume 10MB per page load just in general approach.
But it certainly doesn't make a project more manageable... Functions should be categorized by themes, not by size. I'd rather maintain a 100KB file for some Aeva feature, than have to deal with ten 10KB files with the same code, because every time I want to make a more global change, I have to search all of these files for relevant code, when in a single file, I can just do a quick search... Things like that.
Look, the best example is skin CSS... Originally, I only had suffixes. Got plenty of files for each browser or action or whatever. Then I added @if support. Suddenly I removed most of those extra files, because it was much easier to maintain similarly themed CSS in the same file, rather than in multiple index.ie6.css-whatever files. Made my life easier...
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This last year we've both had stuff going on that has made it hard to focus. I'm sorry I wasn't more forthcoming either, because this might have ended a little differently otherwise.
We both have blame to share.
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Eh, I don't know that they'll love it. They'll deal with it, simple as that.
Better than waiting until 2015 or 2016 for a release you'd finally deem suitable.
Having a release out means that we can start considering things like whether to keep maintaining it. If it's a success (generating buzz, even negative buzz), then great. If it's a failure, then we stop, simple as that.

Okay, this post is so long, I'm gonna have to finish it another day, because... Because! I'm really tired.
Posted: September 13th, 2013, 12:12 AM
Quote from Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Firstly, there is evidence to suggest that themers don't like having to deal with specific CSS variations for a given system due to preparsers - like XenForo discovered - but I think Wess is strong enough that it'll overcome the issues.
Dunno. I guess I can be convinced to switch to an all-bracket version of Wess by default (in index files etc), if people feel better about not having to deal with indentation, but I think it'd be a loss. One of the main advantages, though, would be the fact that Notepad2 would be better at providing syntax highlighting for it... :P
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I was against the idea for reasons I'd explained multiple times, including earlier in this post. I'm skeptical of the claim that you can do 'pretty much everything skin-less themes could do' because there are an awful lot of things that just aren't covered in that.
Well, for now it's not removed; but I just have one thing to add: in the three years we worked on Wedge, none of us ever tried to make a non-default theme, even just to 'see' if it would work... I made so many changes to the internals, I'm not sure it'd work at all; it might be fixable and everything, but because my focus has been on making sure anyone can make a very minimal pseudo-theme (a skin) with just color changes or whatever with only a text editor and a FTP client (no admin manipulation, no database handling or anything), I'm hoping that once they get the feel of it, they'll want to add more features, which they can do while remaining in the same environment, as opposed to having to go through theme handling, which is more complicated, and more importantly, forces you to update your templates as Wedge or SMF is being updated.
(If the theme system is removed, I'll probably be even more aggressive in splitting important templates into more functions and macros.)
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See, that's the problem... I don't like face to face meetings. I much, much prefer online communication. I'm rather inept socially in person,
I don't have the feeling that Louis had a problem with that, since he invited you for a long road trip together, one year after meeting you...
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because my brain thinks faster than my mouth and I trip up on words so much.
And as a French speaking English like a Spanish cow (French expression :P), you don't think I would trip up on words as much as you do..? :P
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Heck, I'm not even on Skype.
Me neither, but I was willing to be for you...
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That said, I think it might be nice to let this stuff go, and in a while when it's all settled and we're doing what we're doing, to just meet up, shoot the breeze. Not as would-be/wannabe/former partners in crime, but two geeks that are just friends, you know?
Well, it never was about Wedge anyway. It was about putting a real person in front of the online contact whom I've been talking to for all these years. What did SMF call that..? A meeting of the minds...

Anyway, I might be coming back to London within the next few months; nothing set in stone, but my girlfriend discussed the possibility of staying at her brother's over there, as he's expecting a new kid soon.
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Seriously though, there has been a mass defection to Facebook and Google+ over the last few years. All the forum packages are in decline, I've even heard from phpBB and MyBB folks that are seeing a decline in users for this very reason.
It's not about the number of users (you realize we'd have been thrilled to even have 1% of SMF's current user base, don't you..?), it's about filling a void, and making life better for at least one person. A success story, if you will, case by case, one at a time. I may have sold thousands of copies of my game, but what really pushed me to continue working on it at the time was these little stories where people were telling me they were successfully using KMJ as a tool for their physiotherapy. It happened several times, I have no idea why. I even once had an hospital ask me for a group order of copies for their reeducation unit; I told them they didn't have to buy them, of course.
That was a factor for me, more than the salary that came out of it.
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For a lot of discussions, a group or page on Facebook will be enough, especially in response to something like a band or similar because they'll already have a presence on FB and don't really need to open up a forum for anything else.
Absolutely... And it's also much easier to set up than a forum, but once your community outgrows the facilities offered by Facebook, it happens from time to time that you'll want to go serious with it. In fact, to me, Facebook didn't replace forums... It simply replaced mailing lists (partly), and free hosted forums that sucked so much. You know, these slow websites that were filled with spam and messages from people asking 'when are you going to use a real forum anyway...?', things like that.
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I can register on a forum and be effectively anonymous should I choose. It's not a single overarching thing where my family, my friends, my professional acquaintances and whatnot all get smushed together unlike Facebook.
Absolutely, that's one of the important points. There are some forums where I'm registered, where I wouldn't want to tell people my real name.
Not that you CAN'T hide your identity on FB. One of my best friends has 'Yeo Wren' as his FB account, and that's actually his nickname. He never gave away his real name on FB, even though he's very active on it, and all of his RL friends are linked to his account. It's not that he's hiding his name... He just doesn't like revealing himself to anyone he doesn't know.
That's why I still have in my to-do list this item that says, lemme find it, "per-item privacy in profiles, e.g. real name". That means applying the usual privacy flag (contacts, members...) to individual entries in your profile area. For instance, you could put your real name in it, but only have it available for your conatcts. Or your e-mail address, etc.
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Getting back on track though, more and more requests on sm.org are about bridging to WP or using it alongside an existing site, rather than it being the site as a whole.
Oh, that... Pete, I've always, always been against board index as the homepage for a forum. You'll remember I did rewrite the homepage early in the Wedge timespan, and even allowed for the ability to push a blog homepage as the main homepage of the forum. That is, to me, it's ALREADY a CMS per-se, although it's not really advertised as such.
(Possibly because I don't think saying "CMS" is gonna help make Wedge popular. If you'll look at cmsmatrix.org, they have over 1200 CMS systems listed... And they're almost all dead. To most people, CMS = what?! (and to them, WordPress is just a blog platform, only web developers/designers would really think of calling it a CMS); to a minority of them, CMS = WordPress (.net and Web Designer Magazine readerships :lol:); and to some of them, CMS = Drupal/Joomla/ExpressionEngine/SilverStripe/whatever CMS had a relative amount of popularity at one point or another. Doing a great CMS won't really help, as there are so many CMSes around already. What is going to help, though, is getting at least ONE great/popular website to use Wedge, and then popularize it by actually keeping using it. Again: one by one...
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As for people coming back to forums, I've been saying since 2011 that there's going to be a shift back towards forums as people start to reclaim their privacy. While I didn't predict PRISM, since 2011 I was speculating 2014 as the time when forums would reclaim some of the lost ground. While the PRISM stuff has died down a touch now, there is a swing back towards forums. I'm just expecting it more en masse next year.
I didn't even know what PRISM was... I googled it, and was surprised by the amount of detail... So, that's what the Snowden story was about, uh..? Interesting. The media in France, I don't remember them talking about that at all... They only covered Snowden's escape, and I followed that a bit because it reminded of that amusing movie I saw a few months ago, Terminal.
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Oh, I've never doubted that the software needs to exist. I'm just challenging the notion that it has to be the primary focus of the software.
Again and again: to me, it's a CMS all right, but CMS meaning "community management system", not "content management system". SMF, to me, like other good forum systems, excel in making users feel that they can set up a real identity on a website, and manage everything from one place. Call it a social network or whatever you like, but to me, it's just what the Web is about... Tim Berners-Lee himself said that the Web had always been about connecting people(http://arstechnica.com/business/2006/09/7650/). Facebook didn't invent it, SMF didn't invent it.
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I'm asserting the notion that a piece of software that allows you to run a website should allow for a forum but not be a forum with some other stuff integrated in to it.
You can very much work on hiding forum contents from a website, for sure, and still have the forum power your user management.
Well, if anything, there are already plenty SMF forums that do exactly that. It's not new -- it's just not really advertised, is all.
Bloc is focused on doing that with Protendo, too. Noisen.com has done that from day one, of course -- I'm not really hiding the forum, but if you tell someone your blog's address, they don't really have a reason to go outside of it, so...
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The point where I suggested it, I forget where it was but it was on this site, and you were very hostile to the idea of having a CMS with 'the best forum plugin' and would much rather have the forum as the core and content stuff around it. At least, that's how it seemed, and after that I just dropped the idea.
What I was against, as I remember it (and I'm old, so my memory is fuzzy), was that you suggested stripping the forum entirely from the software, and adding it back as a plugin of sorts. The idea was already floating in the air for SMF 3.0, and I hated that. I hated the idea that a CMS would have to be ashamed of its origins so much, when it should be proud that it skyrocketed in popularity, even if it typecast(ed?) it a bit.
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A blog is a very different beast from a forum. A forum is essentially a democratic concept, where anyone in the community can have a say and speak their mind, whereas a blog only allows for the privileged few to speak their mind and let everyone else comment. True, a forum board can be used as a blog, and that becomes mostly a matter of permissions and UI juggling, but it's a very different beast to market and to work with as a whole.
Just look at noisen.com, it's come naturally really... Most of the users are just forum users. Most of the most active users have their own blog, where they can do whatever the fuck they want, without my intervention. A few less active users have a blog, but they usually drop it after a few months of inactivity; whether it's because they're intimidated by user comments or simply because they're not really talkative or just wanted to 'try out' the platform, I don't know, and I don't care... I just provide the tools, and I'm happy that a few people (including me up to 2010) are or have been using it. Even a dead blog is something to be proud of; I know that everytime I go back to nao.noisen.com, I have this 'wow!' factor when it comes to the contents of it, same can be said of cynagames.com though, KMJ is not dead, it's still played by hundreds of thousands in the world, that's just the way it is. It will possibly even outlast me, as a retro game of sorts... :lol:
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Messages are what a forum is *made* of. It's not what a forum is *about*. There are other components to a community, where messages don't necessarily make a huge difference. I look at the site I use to discuss development; the shoutbox has nearly 400,000 entries, while the forum has barely 3,000 posts, mostly which just summarise and formalise what the shoutbox had in it at the time.
And that's just great for them. That still makes it a forum... They just don't use the messages table as much as their equivalent thoughts table, I'd say... ;)
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The main reason I didn't want to run a release at this stage was simply because of how much stuff I felt was unfinished - not 'waiting for perfect'. The permissions stuff is still a mess.
It will be fixed over time.
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The media area still needs a serious (IMHO) overhaul,
It will be fixed over time.
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and to me that seemed like it needed to be done before 1.0 but I didn't know what to do with it. I just knew I didn't like it.
I understand that you woudn't like it. Heck, I'd be lying if I said I liked it. But the reality isn't that. The reality is, there are dozen of people who would be thrilled to use Wedge right now, and adopt it, even if it's not ready yet.
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It was a good idea in a lot of ways, but I'm sure it would have failed for the reason above, we would have tried to keep things in step enough to be able to reuse each other's work and we would both have been hamstrung by it in time.
I'm pretty sure I'd have been the 'weaker one' in that relationship, i.e. adopting more of your changes than you'd adopt mine, because I'd really, really strive to keep repos in sync as much as possible, and globally, even though I may have sent 'mixed signals' myself, I'm really happy with most of the changes you made. Even if they destabilize me, overall I know that they're for the better, and they're good for Wedge, for its future popularity. Software reviewers are gonna like the visuals, but they'll be absolutely thrilled by the admin area, I think.
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It would have gone one of two ways, either it would have meant a complete separation much as we're at now, or it would have ended up diverging and converging after a while and a ton of work to bring them back under one roof (which would invariably have lead to a lot of rewrites)
Well, I wouldn't see any of us as doing that merge; maybe by someone else if both of our projects had collapsed, but that may simply have been seen as a 'fork from multiple sources', I don't know...
The idea was simply to find a solution to the issue where we were drifting apart, and to allow you to focus on your other software projects, while giving me free reign to make decisions when you wouldn't be available for advice, that's pretty much it...
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Oh, I know that. At least, I think I know that. But my self esteem doesn't really care *why* it's being pulled apart, simply that the end result is a B-minus grade.
I can't help you here, I'm afraid...
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I couldn't really find a better analogy, and I did want to make some kind of a meta reference, knowing one of the largest topics in the private board. It made me smile a little to make a private reference.
Hmm, I don't think I caught that one... :^^;:
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Oh, it required team work, but I didn't entirely feel like I was doing good at being in a team.
Neither of us are really team material; we're most likely 'alpha devs', meaning we should both be lead dev, which is why we shared that credit, and it worked... For many years; and to me, that's already quite a feat. FWIW.
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But therein lies the problem. Committing something subpar was wrong
Nope...
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and trying to commit perfection meant I committed nothing while trying to make it perfect. My best just isn't the same level as yours, ultimately.
Have you ever seen how many times I rewrote so many parts of my code...? Just this week-- Zoomedia. I not only added hardware acceleration (which was way harder than I expected, because the real bottleneck in performance was not due to the software resizing, but rather to the constant layout reflow inside the popup, even if it just had a single image in it...), but I had to rewrite many things to make it work again, because it had become an unmovable stone, perfected to death over the months. It was as short as you could hope for, and yet I left this feat aside and decided to give priority to making it work. As a result, my final big commit didn't even mention the large increase in size -- something in the likes of 300+ bytes, rather it focused on the fact that it worked better, ah ah...
Maybe it was a homage to you, I don't know... :P
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To a point. Certainly when working alone I don't have the feelings of inadequacy. I can just enjoy working on code for its own sake and it doesn't matter if I don't commit it, and it doesn't matter if I don't finish it and it doesn't matter if I abandon it.
To me, committing has a special feeling: it's like I can leave that part of me aside, and focus on new things. As long as I don't commit, I have tons of ugly, dirty code lying around, and sometimes it just feels great to just revert that code, instead of keeping work on it, because some pieces of code need time to prove their worth, and when they don't, I just tell them good bye.
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Let me show you something. This wasn't public knowledge. Some months ago I made a mod of some of the anti spam stuff in Wedge and released it to sm.org.
Went to see it, and indeed, there it was in all its glory... Because it's available for anyone to download, yes it's public knowledge. Not popular knowledge, but it's there. There's a mod out there at sm.org that publicly accuses me of wrongdoings.
I'm above that, but... Well, I prefer when people who have something serious to tell you, do it in front of me, rather than vent on the side.
If you already had a problem with me back in April, then you should have told me, because there's no reason I wouldn't have worked on this on my side, or at least talked you into understanding what I'm doing has never been against you, rather I was just trying to contribute.
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Interestingly the commit log from 21/4 (r2066) does actually mention that I was AWOL and had been for a day or so at least... This would have been in the middle of the thousands of lines of warning system rewrite that as I tried to tell people was close to giving me a breakdown all on its own.
Anyone would have a breakdown over such a comprehensive rewrite, really...!
Why do you think I never took it upon myself to do a complete overhaul of AeMe... :P
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That comment wasn't actually directed at you, but everyone else who seems to say that I should just man up and accept that this is how it should be.
Well... I know it won't do me any favours as I've been doing my best to stay as neutral as possible in this, and to be understanding of your position and the difficulties you experienced in the last three years; but to be brutally honest Pete, yet, a part of me also screams 'man up!', and considers you a bit of a drama queen. We got together because we were both branded drama queens by the SMF team after all, and they weren't completely wrong. I've just learnt to be more philosophical about these things in the last year or so. I haven't been in a flame war for something like two years. The trick is losing interest. Looking back, I think it was a drug, coming as much from a sense of disbelief at the injustices around me (for some reason, any injustice around *me* seemed to be even worse), as a simple need for attention. As hard as it is to admit it, I did many things out of a need for attention, because of low self-esteem and a need to prove myself that I was a worthy guy, not by self-confidence, but by looking back and thinking, "okay, I made a few nice things". I'm sure today's youth are the same.

But then I just slowly drifted into the world of the adults (mostly due to real life) -- where nothing ever happens because you fear you have more to lose than to earn. I just played the Passion game with myself for so long... I can still be angry at injustice, but the difference is that now I realize I can't do much about these. Last time I saw one, I started a fork. Look where I am, three years later... The only thing that remains of the initial spark is the passion for building something so incredible. The anger, itself, is completely dead. Not that I love the SMF team or anything-- I just don't feel anything when I think of these stories, I see these things as childish. Childish that I played into the game of joining the SMF dev team, and especially childish that they themselves played with me and were frightened of losing control over me. Seriously-- this is free software we're talking about. Nobody should ever give a shit about having 'power' over something. What matters is what they bring to the project, not the aura they get out of it. Being happy with what you did in the past, is better for your karma than some irrational idea of being important. So, yes, everyone was being childish at that point, and I should have seen that. It wouldn't even have stopped me from starting Wedge, actually. Just... In a different state of mind, I guess.

Oh well, I'm seriously drifting off-topic. Sorry, I was typing as I thought it up.
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It is slightly ironic that Wedge itself was founded on the notion that we shouldn't just accept how things are being on the wrong end of a team relationship that wasn't working, but that's what I'm being asked to accept 'for the good of the project'.
I just think, you should embrace our differences. I can accept that you'd leave the project over not being able to accept my quirks, such as these compulsive modifications on your code. But I don't think you should feel betrayed by me, or anything. You should accept that I'm different. I accept that you're different, and I accept that it doesn't work for you, in the end. Just don't turn this into drama. Nobody died here. The worst that happened, is that some things you wrote very passionately are going to be left aside for the time being, maybe forever, but you can always come back and keep contributing to it. It's your decision, in the end, whether you contribute or not. I decided I'd get the 'final cut' on the software because most successful project have a single decision-taking leader, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge how crucial you've been to the project, and its future success. And it's going to stay that way-- anyone, especially me, would be outraged to see your name removed from the Wedge credits, even 10 years after your last contribution. I learned a lot in your company (I also missed out on a lot of opportunities to learn more from you, but... I'm just not up to the task). You've shaped Wedge in your own way, and that's good. Well, what can I add to that..? Not much. My post is already so long, and I can't expect anyone to read it entirely. If anything, I'm hoping you don't reply more than one-liners to it... :^^;:
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The last few days have been very interesting. There are people that believe I should go and be lead developer for SMF in the hopes of rescuing it but I don't really see that working for much the same reasons, and I feel bad about working on my own project in light of the comments made here, but I still love the idea of doing different things with the forum and CMS concept. I guess I'll just have to bend over and accept something in the end :(
I see you're also trying to contribute to Elk, at least trying to convince them to adopt some of your Wedge changes. I just have to say-- make up your mind already! :P

PS: I wanted to use the word "short of...", but I couldn't find any place. Any suggestions where I could have put it, short of here..? Oh, good, I managed to use it, yay!
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:57 AM
I just hit Like on your post, and realized you now have 6 likes... This is one of the most liked posts on this forum, outside of anything posted by Pete or I, quite a feat! ;)
If anything, it's an excellent summary of this discussion, and a much needed one.
Quote from markham on September 7th, 2013, 08:32 AM
One issue that has cropped-up very recently is that of restricting the customization of Wedge's look and feel. Nao has designed some very attractive themes but - and here I agree with Pete - the only major difference between two sites running Wedge may be the colours employed and that would be a Big Mistake, in my view. It could well be, for example, that a Forum owner doesn't want the standard sidebar to appear in "Message View" and only on the "Board View" ('Home' Page) - that would certainly be my personal preference FWIW.
This is something I didn't mention, but I was thinking of adding a parameter to skin options, something like action="...", where you could restrict a macro, code block or PHP function or whatever to a single action. However, board views don't use 'actions' as much as the 'board' variable itself, so I should probably consider adding more variables, i.e. action, board, topic and maybe something else, like 'sa' or 'area'..? That is, <script for="ie6" action="profile" area="notifications"> would define a JS code block that only shows up on /?action=profile;area=notifications for IE6 browsers... Totally useless example, but you see what I mean... ;)
Or maybe some generic prefix for variables... <script url-board="27" url-action="...">, etc, then associate anything in $_GET with equivalent url-* variables.

I shall add this to my to-do list, but I can't think of the 'right' way to do it.
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I truly hope that he and Nao can come to some understanding which would allow Pete to continue participating in an advisory role - if nothing else. And if he does, Nao, I also hope you will listen to him and pay heed to his advice!
Well, as I said... I think Pete teaming up with me is for the best, but it's tiring to go through so many periods during which I don't know what he's planning to do, so I'm sticking to my 'decision' of being the sole 'decision'-taker. (Which, ironically, was my first decision after Pete resigned from taking decisions alongside me... :^^;:) But that shouldn't stop him from being passionate about Wedge itself and wanting to contribute more. As for listening to him -- I'm the first to admit I'm not a very good listener. But not because I don't want to listen... It's mostly down to the fact that I get distracted easily. There's listening (= hearing something and processing it), and listening (= determining what's best based on several conflict advices). I'm not very good at the former, but I think I'm fair in saying I'm okay with the latter.
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As for the gentleman who suggested that Pete should "snap out of it" and "man up", I have nothing but contempt for those remarks and I suggest that you, sir, show some humility and compassion for your fellow man.
Well, it's a forum, so if someone wants to contribute, they can... I've seen so many forums that were ban-trigger-happy with people who shared ideas that weren't shared by the majority... It's usually an early sign of forum decay. I'm sure Pete can deal with this critic by himself. ;)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Arantor on September 13th, 2013, 06:12 PM
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Guess I'll have to reply this, at some point...

Sure, why not. But as the Apache CLA only applies to future contributions, I suppose you'll have to pre-date it..?
I'm not sure it does only apply to future contributions. SM are not so stupid that they extracted two CLAs from me that would only apply going forward.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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The reality is that I'm just not the same as you, and as I've said before I can't live up to your standards.
But my standards are mine, and only apply to myself. What you should say is, you can't live with the idea that I'm modifying your code. Except that sometimes I have to (oversights, bugs...), and other times... Well, it's just cosmetic. What should you be proud of? How you indent your code, or how it does something awesome or innovative..?
It'd be nice to be actually proud of anything. I'm not particularly proud of what I've done for Wedge because all I see are how I could improve it.

I also realise you do not see the schism in your statement. Your standards are yours, yes, right up until you apply them all over the Wedge codebase. The frequent need to minimise everything, even down to stripping multiline if statements down to inlined ternary expressions because it's shorter, even if it is less readable. I got to the point where I just couldn't be bothered trying to argue any more because it wasn't worth the effort, because you wouldn't listen.

Even the things I did argue about, like the point of putting 'public' in front of functions in classes... in both Class-CSS.php and Class-Skeleton.php, the absence is quite notable, and yet when I raised it your principle objection is that it would save you a little typing since the technical objections raised could easily have gone either way.

Then there's the whole way we did coding in general. You pulled my commits apart and rewrote them to suit your standards. I deliberately did not do the same for your commits; I fixed bugs as I noticed them, but with a lot of the stuff you added, I wasn't always sure what was intentional behaviour and what wasn't. Hard to know if something's a bug or not when you're not sure what it's supposed to do.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
The skins folder contains your CSS and PHP stuff, and in your PHP code, you can simply declare a loadLanguage()...
It may not be super-practical, but it's no more unusable than the SMF way, I'd say.
Yes, because making themers have to jump through hoops is so much easier than them just adding a file called ThemeStrings.language.php to their theme/languages folder.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
And, knowing myself-- I'll probably even add a setting allowing for skins to load some language files automatically on every page. I already have a <language> setting IIRC (determining what languages the skin accounts for in the CSS files), so I'll just have to add a new one like <loadLanguage>, or something. As long as it's in beta, I can still change that kind of thing, and update all skin files manually...
And with that attitude you're never going to get out of beta. I saw, for example, that among the latest commits were an overhaul of Zoomedia... you're not even in beta and you're already rewriting something that most people have only seen a few times for something that I'd argue really isn't necessary - and given that you've said you're trying for a public release, I'd wonder why you're not spending time on the things that actually matter.

At this stage the question to ask: Is it free of known bugs? Does it do everything it needs to do? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, it's not something that needs to be touched until after a beta phase has begun when you let optimisation kick in.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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and 2) it absolutely prevents replacing templates on a large scale. Sure, there are some nods made in the other direction with <we:cat> and <we:title> but a themer simply isn't going to be able to go to town and really change up the look.
If it's absolutely needed, then they'll tell me what I should change into a macro.
If it's not, then it's unlikely they'll simply update all template files for the sake of updating all template files.
Why not spend a little time looking around at what the theme community actually do to get an idea?

Most themes don't touch markup at all because of mod compatibility. Those that do change the following, in approximately the order of frequency: the menu, the board index, the message index, the display.

Most themes don't go through all that, and only a few themes ever go beyond that (e.g. Dragooon's mobile theme) but that's more than can be done with skins right now. So basically you end up in the position where you need to make a decision about making the entire board index a macro of sorts.

If you look back, the reasons I suggested <we:cat> and <we:title> originally were entirely out of experience of modders interacting with themers against themes that were changing. I wasn't just thinking out hypotheticals there, I was working from bitter experience. It's really hard to improve upon things when all you can see is the vacuum you're working in - go out there and see what everyone else is doing and then figure out how to improve on it.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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I see from the changelog you've made some more strides, but let me ask you this. You've seen Crossing Overland, with the menu down the side, with the other stuff that's in the theme. The ONLY thing managed by the sources code is the extra subtitle on the menu, everything else is in a custom theme.

Can that be recreated with just skins?
Can't see why not..?
Because I'm not sure you looked hard enough, though I realise I didn't explain it very well either.

The front page has the sidebar, as do the blog posts. But the minute you drop back to the forum or the trips pages, or indeed anything not actually in the blog posts, there's no sidebar. Now tell me how you'd do that in a skin.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Answer: no because the JavaScript would have to be reworked to make the menu work differently.
And here, I can't see what JS is needed exactly to make it work. I don't see any JS at hand here...
And even then-- <script include="mycustomskin">, and you're done... (??)
If someone needs an object method to be rewritable, I can declare it outside the scope, so that it can be redefined/overloaded/prototyped.
This is because I didn't reuse the full menus from that theme. The theme, in case you weren't aware, is a premium theme for WordPress that I ported. And the theme has a whole thing for submenus - check it out at http://www.elegantthemes.com/preview/Memoir/

The point I was trying to make but clearly didn't spell out blatantly enough is that it's not about rewriting the menu as such, it's being able to totally ignore the current menu JS code and implement something else should the user choose to do so. And do it per theme.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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That's the point I was getting at: killing off themes and pushing it to skins means a designer can only change the markup they're given, they can't really go to town with new markup which is a considerable hit on flexibility.
Macros
Custom JS
Custom PHP
Custom CSS
Final HTML raw replacement
Dunno what can be done with themes, that skins could not do.
Of course, it's another way of handling things. And it needs documenting. That's where skins are weak. There's a basic documentation in Warm/skin.xml (the only thing I actually really worked on documenting, unlike Wess!), but it could be better, I suppose. I'll improve it as questions come and go.
-sigh- Can a skin change quite literally any part of the main markup? I don't mean through buffer find/replace, because that's so fragile it's unreal (bear in mind I've done quite possibly more extreme things in this department than most people realise, like replacing icons on the board index using it)
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
I needed your expertise on many domains that I'm very weak at (database, security, UI, JS, and so on -- and yes, I got a bit better at UI, and I quickly realized I wasn't as bad at JS as I feared), and quite simply, I needed your enthusiasm. Two people is better than one. Oh, just a simple example... These days, Milady and I try to jog at least once a week, sometimes twice a week. We started slow with 12mn rounds, and now we're at 30mn rounds. We're still bad at this, but we're still doing it, because what matters is that we try. Milady told me today, after our jogging session, that she enjoyed running with me, because she did 45mn sessions many years ago, and stopped after a year because she was fucking bored. I told her, "you need me because you feel better when you're so tired and you see that I'm in an even worse shape; and you need me because you want to encourage me to keep you with you when you're feeling better." She agreed with that entirely. Sometimes, being two just means that when someone is not at their best, they can count on someone else to fill up their job, and when they're at their best, they're happy that someone is encouraging them.
It's true enough, however it's also true that you don't really need me. The parts where I had other stuff going on, you kept developing just as you always had.

The thing is, you're a lot better at JS and UI in general than I am. So that leaves database and security then, and most of that stuff is already in place anyway.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Sure. Removing themes would be a bold move, one in the likes of your own past bold moves, so I guess it's like the name change-- a way to make it clear it's "mine" from now on. However, all I want, at this point, is to finish the dozen or so features I want to finish (better privacy settings, better UI for blogs, etc.), and then release it to the world. I think that's what's going to make it clear that it's mine: I've always been willing to release it, because I am confident people will love it, as flawed as it is. ;)
So now you've finished the (second? third?) rewrite of Zoomedia, you'll be able to get right on those?
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Ah, well, I tend to reply as I'm reading. I didn't read this post until now (I did read your previous long post entirely before replying, but that's more an exception), because I will usually be discouraged to reply after I've read. "Too many things to say, will take me hours to reply..."
So, I guess my posts tend to be seen as hot-headed, more spontaneous, unlike yours. Figures.
You can always tell when my posts are hot-headed and impetuous. But when it's important like this I try to give it a little time before I reply so that I've thought about it. The first draft of this reply was far more angry.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Okay, so, the censor code... It's less than 5KB, including all of the fancy scramble stuff. Or just 1.2KB for the core function. I don't see autoloading it as being very helpful for performance...? Heck, at worst I could simply have it in a Subs-Censor.php file, and loadSource it from within Subs-BBC if needed...
And still you miss my point. But maybe that's my fault for giving you a very specific, and sub-par, example.

I don't use the censor nearly as much as Wedge does, but that's because I'm less about being a forum. Now consider that I also don't use the bbc parser as much. Imagine NOT loading Subs-BBC.php every page load, because you don't need it every page load.

That's 55KB of code you don't actually need every page load. Still think this is a minor pointless petty detail?

SMF 2.1 has a token system that sits above session checking for admin actions. Another 7KB from the page load as standard (it was in Security.php)

Another example is the ban system in Wedge... bans are not evaluated every page load but on a new session and every x minutes (5 IIRC), so replace all the ban stuff in Security.php - is_not_banned() - with a tiny function that just does the session check and then only loads the rest of the ban stuff if it's actually needed. That's probably another 15KB of code that you save when you don't need it.

Right now, Wedge takes ~10MB of memory to build a page. My stripped down SMF 2.1 currently runs in the 4MB range for page building, and while it doesn't have a template system as powerful as Wedge's, when I've added Twig to it, it'll probably still consume less memory.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
But it certainly doesn't make a project more manageable... Functions should be categorized by themes, not by size. I'd rather maintain a 100KB file for some Aeva feature, than have to deal with ten 10KB files with the same code, because every time I want to make a more global change, I have to search all of these files for relevant code, when in a single file, I can just do a quick search... Things like that.
Seriously, that's what you're trying to argue with?

You and I both did search and replace across a hundred files at a time. What's the difference between that and doing it on a smaller scale?

I'd rather have something that is only-debatably less manageable and is measurably faster out of it. There are all kinds of things that I don't even remember where they are; if I have to do a project-wide find to find a function definition, I'd argue there's something quite wrong there.

Right now if I want to find something I know immediately where to look, e.g. Pyra_Suggest_Member is the suggest handler for members... and guess what, if I see the class mentioned, I know exactly where to look: Pyra/Suggest/Member.php. And since I'm keeping functionality together in a logical fashion I don't even have to worry about there being stuff lurking around that doesn't need to be around. I don't have to wade through multi-thousand line files trying to find things.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Look, the best example is skin CSS... Originally, I only had suffixes. Got plenty of files for each browser or action or whatever. Then I added @if support. Suddenly I removed most of those extra files, because it was much easier to maintain similarly themed CSS in the same file, rather than in multiple index.ie6.css-whatever files. Made my life easier...
So you're grouping things by function and having conditional items for that function in the file? Christ, that sounds logical. It's funny how that's almost exactly what I'm suggesting.

You have CSS files for the admin area, for the editor, for the zooming component and other stuff, which is not substantially different in a semantic sense to what I'm talking about. And you load the bits you need as you need them and the result is a smaller CSS file.

Now replace 'CSS files' with 'classes' and the result is a smaller footprint of code that runs faster because you're loading and parsing less each page load.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Eh, I don't know that they'll love it. They'll deal with it, simple as that.
Better than waiting until 2015 or 2016 for a release you'd finally deem suitable.
I'm not the one who constantly rewrote things in a quest for making it ever smaller. I took things I didn't like and I rewrote them. The only things I wasn't really satisfied with were the things that got rewritten time and time again, and the things that weren't done yet but that needed improving - like the ban system, the warning system etc.

I'd argue in front of anyone who cares to read the commit log that I'm not the one with a problem with quality.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Quote from Arantor on September 6th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Firstly, there is evidence to suggest that themers don't like having to deal with specific CSS variations for a given system due to preparsers - like XenForo discovered - but I think Wess is strong enough that it'll overcome the issues.
Dunno. I guess I can be convinced to switch to an all-bracket version of Wess by default (in index files etc), if people feel better about not having to deal with indentation, but I think it'd be a loss. One of the main advantages, though, would be the fact that Notepad2 would be better at providing syntax highlighting for it... :P
That isn't what I meant.

XenForo has its own preparser. It's not as hardcore as Wess, not by a long way, but it is still a preparser and people don't like having to learn something that isn't CSS to make use of it, unless it's a given standard like LESS.

On the other hand, XenForo's admin panel for editing style properties blows almost anything else I've seen out of the water. A pretty interface for all this stuff - the only thing that beats it is IPB's visual editor.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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I was against the idea for reasons I'd explained multiple times, including earlier in this post. I'm skeptical of the claim that you can do 'pretty much everything skin-less themes could do' because there are an awful lot of things that just aren't covered in that.
Well, for now it's not removed; but I just have one thing to add: in the three years we worked on Wedge, none of us ever tried to make a non-default theme, even just to 'see' if it would work... I made so many changes to the internals, I'm not sure it'd work at all; it might be fixable and everything, but because my focus has been on making sure anyone can make a very minimal pseudo-theme (a skin) with just color changes or whatever with only a text editor and a FTP client (no admin manipulation, no database handling or anything), I'm hoping that once they get the feel of it, they'll want to add more features, which they can do while remaining in the same environment, as opposed to having to go through theme handling, which is more complicated, and more importantly, forces you to update your templates as Wedge or SMF is being updated.
(If the theme system is removed, I'll probably be even more aggressive in splitting important templates into more functions and macros.)
Hmm, I've seen what other platforms do and I'm really not sure I agree with your take on it.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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See, that's the problem... I don't like face to face meetings. I much, much prefer online communication. I'm rather inept socially in person,
I don't have the feeling that Louis had a problem with that, since he invited you for a long road trip together, one year after meeting you...
Other than the fact that we've known each other 5 years and talk every day via a realtime chat system.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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because my brain thinks faster than my mouth and I trip up on words so much.
And as a French speaking English like a Spanish cow (French expression :P), you don't think I would trip up on words as much as you do..? :P
You're allowed to trip up on English because it's not your native language. The fact I can't speak my own native language properly should be telling. It'd be like you tripping up on French in regular conversation.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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That said, I think it might be nice to let this stuff go, and in a while when it's all settled and we're doing what we're doing, to just meet up, shoot the breeze. Not as would-be/wannabe/former partners in crime, but two geeks that are just friends, you know?
Well, it never was about Wedge anyway. It was about putting a real person in front of the online contact whom I've been talking to for all these years. What did SMF call that..? A meeting of the minds...
The problem is I know only too well what happened at MOTM - much coding was done. It would end up being a coding session and I'm not sure that would work for us.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Anyway, I might be coming back to London within the next few months; nothing set in stone, but my girlfriend discussed the possibility of staying at her brother's over there, as he's expecting a new kid soon.
That might work.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Seriously though, there has been a mass defection to Facebook and Google+ over the last few years. All the forum packages are in decline, I've even heard from phpBB and MyBB folks that are seeing a decline in users for this very reason.
It's not about the number of users (you realize we'd have been thrilled to even have 1% of SMF's current user base, don't you..?), it's about filling a void, and making life better for at least one person. A success story, if you will, case by case, one at a time. I may have sold thousands of copies of my game, but what really pushed me to continue working on it at the time was these little stories where people were telling me they were successfully using KMJ as a tool for their physiotherapy. It happened several times, I have no idea why. I even once had an hospital ask me for a group order of copies for their reeducation unit; I told them they didn't have to buy them, of course.
That was a factor for me, more than the salary that came out of it.
It's a funny old world... I discovered that SMF and phpBB are working together of sorts these days in an attempt to try to bolster the forum market, amongst other things.

Yes, it would be nice to enhance the world one person at a time but I stopped feeling like Wedge was going to do that.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Absolutely... And it's also much easier to set up than a forum, but once your community outgrows the facilities offered by Facebook, it happens from time to time that you'll want to go serious with it. In fact, to me, Facebook didn't replace forums... It simply replaced mailing lists (partly), and free hosted forums that sucked so much. You know, these slow websites that were filled with spam and messages from people asking 'when are you going to use a real forum anyway...?', things like that.
To a point, sure. To a point it has supplanted that. But that means that by and large only established forums are the ones that are using forum software. Very few sites are starting and have any real modicum of success with pure forums. Taking it out of the forum context is the only real way to make it work.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Absolutely, that's one of the important points. There are some forums where I'm registered, where I wouldn't want to tell people my real name.
Not that you CAN'T hide your identity on FB. One of my best friends has 'Yeo Wren' as his FB account, and that's actually his nickname. He never gave away his real name on FB, even though he's very active on it, and all of his RL friends are linked to his account. It's not that he's hiding his name... He just doesn't like revealing himself to anyone he doesn't know.
That's why I still have in my to-do list this item that says, lemme find it, "per-item privacy in profiles, e.g. real name". That means applying the usual privacy flag (contacts, members...) to individual entries in your profile area. For instance, you could put your real name in it, but only have it available for your conatcts. Or your e-mail address, etc.
The only problem is when FB finally catches up with you, as it seems to be doing to people I know who hide their identity online. G+ has, of course, long been more forthright about this.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Oh, that... Pete, I've always, always been against board index as the homepage for a forum. You'll remember I did rewrite the homepage early in the Wedge timespan, and even allowed for the ability to push a blog homepage as the main homepage of the forum. That is, to me, it's ALREADY a CMS per-se, although it's not really advertised as such.
And admins aren't going to notice or care. That might as well not be a feature.

Seriously, admins today do NOT do direct DB edits or raw PHP unless they have to, simply because the world has moved on. Most websites today are not run by people who are fit for the title of webmaster.

For example, amusing story this week - amusing if you're a developer, perhaps - the single largest SMF site had a malfunction this week when its operator decided that there was a chunk of code in a file that 'I'm not using any more', until it was removed at which point large amounts of the site fell over because the function was still being called.

That's the sort of people who run websites, people who need to be protected from their own ignorance wherever possible.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
(Possibly because I don't think saying "CMS" is gonna help make Wedge popular. If you'll look at cmsmatrix.org, they have over 1200 CMS systems listed... And they're almost all dead. To most people, CMS = what?! (and to them, WordPress is just a blog platform, only web developers/designers would really think of calling it a CMS); to a minority of them, CMS = WordPress (.net and Web Designer Magazine readerships :lol:); and to some of them, CMS = Drupal/Joomla/ExpressionEngine/SilverStripe/whatever CMS had a relative amount of popularity at one point or another. Doing a great CMS won't really help, as there are so many CMSes around already. What is going to help, though, is getting at least ONE great/popular website to use Wedge, and then popularize it by actually keeping using it. Again: one by one...
No, WordPress is no longer a blog platform in the public perception. It's long been understood that it's a CMS, even if it isn't a very good one at that.

The reality is that you and I disagree on this and in the next few years we'll see who was right.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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As for people coming back to forums, I've been saying since 2011 that there's going to be a shift back towards forums as people start to reclaim their privacy. While I didn't predict PRISM, since 2011 I was speculating 2014 as the time when forums would reclaim some of the lost ground. While the PRISM stuff has died down a touch now, there is a swing back towards forums. I'm just expecting it more en masse next year.
I didn't even know what PRISM was... I googled it, and was surprised by the amount of detail... So, that's what the Snowden story was about, uh..? Interesting. The media in France, I don't remember them talking about that at all... They only covered Snowden's escape, and I followed that a bit because it reminded of that amusing movie I saw a few months ago, Terminal.
Yeah, it's one hell of a mess.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Oh, I've never doubted that the software needs to exist. I'm just challenging the notion that it has to be the primary focus of the software.
Again and again: to me, it's a CMS all right, but CMS meaning "community management system", not "content management system". SMF, to me, like other good forum systems, excel in making users feel that they can set up a real identity on a website, and manage everything from one place. Call it a social network or whatever you like, but to me, it's just what the Web is about... Tim Berners-Lee himself said that the Web had always been about connecting people(http://arstechnica.com/business/2006/09/7650/). Facebook didn't invent it, SMF didn't invent it.
-sigh- And still you miss my point. I give up trying to argue this with you.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Messages are what a forum is *made* of. It's not what a forum is *about*. There are other components to a community, where messages don't necessarily make a huge difference. I look at the site I use to discuss development; the shoutbox has nearly 400,000 entries, while the forum has barely 3,000 posts, mostly which just summarise and formalise what the shoutbox had in it at the time.
And that's just great for them. That still makes it a forum... They just don't use the messages table as much as their equivalent thoughts table, I'd say... ;)
It's a forum in name and organisation because it's using a forum platform. I could just as easily switch the forum out and push everything to a wiki and the site would rock along just fine because the real meat is the realtime chat. The forum is just one method of organising more formal write-ups of what was already discussed.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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The main reason I didn't want to run a release at this stage was simply because of how much stuff I felt was unfinished - not 'waiting for perfect'. The permissions stuff is still a mess.
It will be fixed over time.
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The media area still needs a serious (IMHO) overhaul,
It will be fixed over time.
Very, very best of luck to you with that. I've been through the gauntlet of overhauling permissions and when it came to SimpleDesk 2.0 I just declared I wasn't even going to bother trying to write an importer from 1.0's permissions.

Hell, even SMF 2.0's permissions importer from 1.x makes a bit of a mess of it.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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and to me that seemed like it needed to be done before 1.0 but I didn't know what to do with it. I just knew I didn't like it.
I understand that you woudn't like it. Heck, I'd be lying if I said I liked it. But the reality isn't that. The reality is, there are dozen of people who would be thrilled to use Wedge right now, and adopt it, even if it's not ready yet.
So release it then.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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It was a good idea in a lot of ways, but I'm sure it would have failed for the reason above, we would have tried to keep things in step enough to be able to reuse each other's work and we would both have been hamstrung by it in time.
I'm pretty sure I'd have been the 'weaker one' in that relationship, i.e. adopting more of your changes than you'd adopt mine, because I'd really, really strive to keep repos in sync as much as possible, and globally, even though I may have sent 'mixed signals' myself, I'm really happy with most of the changes you made. Even if they destabilize me, overall I know that they're for the better, and they're good for Wedge, for its future popularity. Software reviewers are gonna like the visuals, but they'll be absolutely thrilled by the admin area, I think.
Oh, I guarantee you would not have tried to keep in step. For example right now I'm looking at templating systems, and probably going to go with Twig, because I want admins to be able to edit templates from the admin panel, and minimise the risk of them screwing things up in the process.

That and the autoloading stuff would probably in themselves require too many changes to keep in step. (For example last week I rewrote all the semantics of the scheduled tasks system to make each task its own class, which incidentally solves a problem that Wedge has at present as far as I remember in that a scheduled task added from a plugin never gets to load a language file to indicate its name and description)
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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It would have gone one of two ways, either it would have meant a complete separation much as we're at now, or it would have ended up diverging and converging after a while and a ton of work to bring them back under one roof (which would invariably have lead to a lot of rewrites)
Well, I wouldn't see any of us as doing that merge; maybe by someone else if both of our projects had collapsed, but that may simply have been seen as a 'fork from multiple sources', I don't know...
The idea was simply to find a solution to the issue where we were drifting apart, and to allow you to focus on your other software projects, while giving me free reign to make decisions when you wouldn't be available for advice, that's pretty much it...
Which is where we're at. You're doing what you're doing without needing to wait for my advice (which I consistently have the feeling of it not being listened to anyway), I'm doing what I'm doing and they're two different directions.

The only downside as I see it is that I'm not using the more modern Wedge codebase, and need to redo a bunch of stuff (like the conversion to UTF-8 only) before I can start really going to town on what I want to do.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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and trying to commit perfection meant I committed nothing while trying to make it perfect. My best just isn't the same level as yours, ultimately.
Have you ever seen how many times I rewrote so many parts of my code...?
Sure I did. The point is that that wasn't the signals you were giving out. You expected every commit of mine to be a higher standard than yours and you rewrote them to suit yourself.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Let me show you something. This wasn't public knowledge. Some months ago I made a mod of some of the anti spam stuff in Wedge and released it to sm.org.
Went to see it, and indeed, there it was in all its glory... Because it's available for anyone to download, yes it's public knowledge. Not popular knowledge, but it's there. There's a mod out there at sm.org that publicly accuses me of wrongdoings.
That's one of the things. It's out there, but most people never saw it - including the Customization Team because they would have said something about it.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
I'm above that, but... Well, I prefer when people who have something serious to tell you, do it in front of me, rather than vent on the side.
If you already had a problem with me back in April, then you should have told me, because there's no reason I wouldn't have worked on this on my side, or at least talked you into understanding what I'm doing has never been against you, rather I was just trying to contribute.
-sigh- For the umpteenth time, I tried to raise this stuff before. Some of it going back a year or more. And none of it got taken on board.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Interestingly the commit log from 21/4 (r2066) does actually mention that I was AWOL and had been for a day or so at least... This would have been in the middle of the thousands of lines of warning system rewrite that as I tried to tell people was close to giving me a breakdown all on its own.
Anyone would have a breakdown over such a comprehensive rewrite, really...!
Why do you think I never took it upon myself to do a complete overhaul of AeMe... :P
Oh I understood but when I talked about doing an overhaul, you were pretty adamant that you should be the one to do it, and pretty much every time I've raised issues with Aeva's code, you've never been exactly encouraging about me running with it - the only time you ever were was with the admin panel, and to be honest that's not an overhaul, that would have had to be a total rewrite.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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That comment wasn't actually directed at you, but everyone else who seems to say that I should just man up and accept that this is how it should be.
Well... I know it won't do me any favours as I've been doing my best to stay as neutral as possible in this, and to be understanding of your position and the difficulties you experienced in the last three years; but to be brutally honest Pete, yet, a part of me also screams 'man up!', and considers you a bit of a drama queen.
That's fine, it's a valid opinion. It's also not entirely inaccurate. However the doctor I've been to see kind of disagreed and I've been referred onwards (no date yet >_< Love the NHS for that)
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
We got together because we were both branded drama queens by the SMF team after all, and they weren't completely wrong. I've just learnt to be more philosophical about these things in the last year or so. I haven't been in a flame war for something like two years. The trick is losing interest. Looking back, I think it was a drug, coming as much from a sense of disbelief at the injustices around me (for some reason, any injustice around *me* seemed to be even worse), as a simple need for attention. As hard as it is to admit it, I did many things out of a need for attention, because of low self-esteem and a need to prove myself that I was a worthy guy, not by self-confidence, but by looking back and thinking, "okay, I made a few nice things". I'm sure today's youth are the same.
I don't disagree... and one of the comments of the time - about preserving the SMF legacy - is also just as true today as it was back then. The project is on the verge of collapse, to the point where several senior figures were very enthusiastic about the idea of my contributing code. Unfortunately, a certain person publicly called another person a lying two-faced cow, and I realised how much they were running around stabbing each other in the back.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Being happy with what you did in the past, is better for your karma than some irrational idea of being important. So, yes, everyone was being childish at that point, and I should have seen that. It wouldn't even have stopped me from starting Wedge, actually. Just... In a different state of mind, I guess.
Unfortunately in my world I just see things I could have done better. I rarely spend time thinking about what I've achieved, it's always what I could have done better. I've been that way most of my life.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
I just think, you should embrace our differences. I can accept that you'd leave the project over not being able to accept my quirks, such as these compulsive modifications on your code. But I don't think you should feel betrayed by me, or anything.
If that's what message you've gotten from this debate, then there really is nothing I can do about it.

Compulsive modifications are part of the story. Repeatedly not being listened to is another.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
You should accept that I'm different. I accept that you're different, and I accept that it doesn't work for you, in the end. Just don't turn this into drama.
Seriously the real drama is the drama everyone's making out of this. I shouldn't have come back to try and defend my point of view because that's causing more drama.

The bottom line is that I don't feel I have much of a place here. When I do contribute, it gets modified beyond what's actually needed. That's a problem for me, but it's not insurmountable on its own.

The problem is then tied to the fact that, repeatedly, people don't listen to me. It's actually hard enough for me to put forward my ideas as it is; my ideas are one of the few things I get passionate about enough to overrule my general tendency to avoid conflict. My ideas, essentially, are one of the few things I will talk most about because it's more important to share ideas than to sit back and just wait for the inevitable.

To be overruled on such matters with what seems like a trite reason, that actually hurts.

Example: I don't think certain stats should be recorded. You disagree, citing your dislike of WordPress' lack of stats gathering. As a compromise you suggest that the stats should be admin only, mitigating certain points of my argument. I wasn't happy, but you went off and did it anyway, despite my issues with it. It's as though most of what I had to say just wasn't relevant.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
but you can always come back and keep contributing to it. It's your decision, in the end, whether you contribute or not.
Here's the thing, you made it quite clear that a return on my part would be on your terms, not mine. That's not a situation I'm prepared to compromise on.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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The last few days have been very interesting. There are people that believe I should go and be lead developer for SMF in the hopes of rescuing it but I don't really see that working for much the same reasons, and I feel bad about working on my own project in light of the comments made here, but I still love the idea of doing different things with the forum and CMS concept. I guess I'll just have to bend over and accept something in the end :(
I see you're also trying to contribute to Elk, at least trying to convince them to adopt some of your Wedge changes. I just have to say-- make up your mind already! :P
They're ideas. I like my ideas. I'm already using them in Pyrapage. I see no reason why I shouldn't share my ideas with anyone who wants to listen, which the Elk guys do seem to want to do. Antechinus is, well, Antechinus, and requires a bit less subtlety.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:57 AM
Well, as I said... I think Pete teaming up with me is for the best, but it's tiring to go through so many periods during which I don't know what he's planning to do, so I'm sticking to my 'decision' of being the sole 'decision'-taker. (Which, ironically, was my first decision after Pete resigned from taking decisions alongside me... :^^;:)
Since I apparently have to declare my plans to you: I'm not going to contribute to Wedge or SMF. I may share ideas with Elkarte. I am primarily working on C# and Unity and exploring my CMS ideas in my spare time with a project based on SMF 2.1 called Pyrapage.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
But that shouldn't stop him from being passionate about Wedge itself and wanting to contribute more.
After everything that's been said, why does it surprise you that I don't want to contribute any more?
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
As for listening to him -- I'm the first to admit I'm not a very good listener. But not because I don't want to listen... It's mostly down to the fact that I get distracted easily. There's listening (= hearing something and processing it), and listening (= determining what's best based on several conflict advices). I'm not very good at the former, but I think I'm fair in saying I'm okay with the latter.
From my perspective, the latter tends to end up being listening to the difference advices and then going with what you were going to do anyway. That is, generally, what it has seemed like.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Well, it's a forum, so if someone wants to contribute, they can... I've seen so many forums that were ban-trigger-happy with people who shared ideas that weren't shared by the majority... It's usually an early sign of forum decay. I'm sure Pete can deal with this critic by himself. ;)
I believe I did just that.


I won't deny, I've been a little happier in recent days where the only person I'm really answerable to is myself. Where I don't have to argue things, where I can just run with my instinct and not feel like I need to defend every decision I make, and then usually multiple times when people didn't get it the first time.

You said you didn't want drama out of this. That's an easy request to grant. I just need to post the reply and lock the topic and disappear. If I'm not here arguing, I don't generate any drama. The only problem then is the people who don't seem to understand what I've been saying but that's kind of the problem anyway, that people aren't reading what I'm writing...
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
Quote from Arantor on September 13th, 2013, 06:12 PM
I'm not sure it does only apply to future contributions. SM are not so stupid that they extracted two CLAs from me that would only apply going forward.
Yeah, probably.
http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
"You accept and agree to the following terms and conditions for Your
present and future Contributions submitted to the Foundation."
Well, 'present' probably implies 'past', since one is unlikely to be contributing something right at the instant of signing the CLA, but...

So... You're welcome to do it, then ;)
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Yes, because making themers have to jump through hoops is so much easier than them just adding a file called ThemeStrings.language.php to their theme/languages folder.
Okay, I could just as well add language files support to the skin folder... It's not very important, really. This is the kind of thing that can be improved as I go.
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And with that attitude you're never going to get out of beta.
Hmm, because we went out of beta in the last three years...? I mean, you're the one who said last month to someone that Wedge wasn't gonna be out any soon, right..? I didn't see why you were being so obtuse about that. I keep saying we should go beta... But, whatever.
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I saw, for example, that among the latest commits were an overhaul of Zoomedia... you're not even in beta and you're already rewriting something that most people have only seen a few times for something that I'd argue really isn't necessary - and given that you've said you're trying for a public release, I'd wonder why you're not spending time on the things that actually matter.
It looks much better now. It's impressive. It's what I do.
I'm not doing any more money than you off this, and thankfully, I still get to choose what I work on...
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At this stage the question to ask: Is it free of known bugs?
Probably not. But I didn't follow these reports. Will fix as I go.
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The front page has the sidebar, as do the blog posts. But the minute you drop back to the forum or the trips pages, or indeed anything not actually in the blog posts, there's no sidebar. Now tell me how you'd do that in a skin.
Yes, by selecting (with my upcoming action/area selector, as discussed yesterday) areas where you don't want the sidebar (e.g. the forum), and giving it an empty sidebar macro. Problem solved.
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So now you've finished the (second? third?) rewrite of Zoomedia, you'll be able to get right on those?
That's up to me to decide.
I think I'll give it a couple of months to recover from my RL blows, and from your leaving as well. Then I'll get serious about feature freeze. Going for late '13 or early '14 is still gonna be earlier than your prediction. Just be patient. In a few months time, you'll either have forgotten about Wedge entirely, or you'll be back to complain that I didn't release.
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You can always tell when my posts are hot-headed and impetuous. But when it's important like this I try to give it a little time before I reply so that I've thought about it. The first draft of this reply was far more angry.
Good to know..?
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Right now, Wedge takes ~10MB of memory to build a page. My stripped down SMF 2.1 currently runs in the 4MB range for page building, and while it doesn't have a template system as powerful as Wedge's, when I've added Twig to it, it'll probably still consume less memory.
Sure, Twig is something cool that doesn't require re-learning something for people who know PHP, and doesn't take away any flexibility, and doesn't require a server installation, i.e. something that can't be done on shared hosting or by people who don't know anything about server management... The very people you're targeting (unlike me). Anyway... It's really, really not worth fighting about. People will be free to try Wedge out. If they find it's slower than your solution, they'll use yours (or another). No problem.
You're a server performance freak, I'm a client performance freak. Told you-- we've always been complementary, haven't we..? I'm all about saving bandwidth, you're all about saving CPU cycles. These two can sometimes be compatible, but not always. Not these days, apparently...
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You and I both did search and replace across a hundred files at a time. What's the difference between that and doing it on a smaller scale?
Because not everyone knows about grepWin or other mass s&r tools, not everyone wants to deal with these..?
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I'd argue in front of anyone who cares to read the commit log that I'm not the one with a problem with quality.
The problem has always been very simple to spell out, actually: I thought of you as an innovator who knows better than anyone else, and was always afraid to commit sub-par stuff that you would criticize for being poorly thought out, because of this or that obscure setting in PHP or MySQL that makes the whole thing 12% slower than if I'd done it this way. And you thought of me as someone who judges your commits, too, and silently requires you not to commit sub-par stuff.
So, basically, we were afraid of each other. Nice.
No wonder we both stuck to our known strengths... :P
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The problem is I know only too well what happened at MOTM - much coding was done. It would end up being a coding session and I'm not sure that would work for us.
Well, I don't do that. I could discuss code, but I wouldn't code with someone else. I like being alone to code. Add bugs, test, find bugs, fix bugs. That's a very private thing. I can discuss these things, but it's awkward to do them in front of someone...
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Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:39 AM
Anyway, I might be coming back to London within the next few months; nothing set in stone, but my girlfriend discussed the possibility of staying at her brother's over there, as he's expecting a new kid soon.
That might work.
'kay.
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It's a funny old world... I discovered that SMF and phpBB are working together of sorts these days in an attempt to try to bolster the forum market, amongst other things.
Haven't heard about that.
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Yes, it would be nice to enhance the world one person at a time but I stopped feeling like Wedge was going to do that.
'kay, sure, we'll see.
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To a point, sure. To a point it has supplanted that. But that means that by and large only established forums are the ones that are using forum software. Very few sites are starting and have any real modicum of success with pure forums. Taking it out of the forum context is the only real way to make it work.
Doesn't mean they HAVE to use a CMS in the first place, just means they need to find the right angle first.
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And admins aren't going to notice or care. That might as well not be a feature.
'kay.
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Seriously, admins today do NOT do direct DB edits or raw PHP unless they have to, simply because the world has moved on. Most websites today are not run by people who are fit for the title of webmaster.
You seem to despise them... And yet, they're the people you want to help by adding new easier features.
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For example, amusing story this week - amusing if you're a developer, perhaps - the single largest SMF site had a malfunction this week when its operator decided that there was a chunk of code in a file that 'I'm not using any more', until it was removed at which point large amounts of the site fell over because the function was still being called.
Sounds like someone's gonna make some money in exchange for their help...
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That's the sort of people who run websites, people who need to be protected from their own ignorance wherever possible.
Ignorance is bliss. If you can afford a technician, of course.
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No, WordPress is no longer a blog platform in the public perception. It's long been understood that it's a CMS, even if it isn't a very good one at that.
If you say so.
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The reality is that you and I disagree on this and in the next few years we'll see who was right.
I don't argue in terms of who's right and who's wrong. Understanding is a three-edged sword.
Especially in the case of 'predictions', where, really, which of us is gonna give a damn about forum software and CMS in ten years..? I hope none of us.
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That and the autoloading stuff would probably in themselves require too many changes to keep in step. (For example last week I rewrote all the semantics of the scheduled tasks system to make each task its own class, which incidentally solves a problem that Wedge has at present as far as I remember in that a scheduled task added from a plugin never gets to load a language file to indicate its name and description)
Well, then it's simply a feature that plugin authors won't be able to use, unless live627 (or you) steps up and offers to fix it.
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The only downside as I see it is that I'm not using the more modern Wedge codebase, and need to redo a bunch of stuff (like the conversion to UTF-8 only) before I can start really going to town on what I want to do.
I still don't see why you didn't ask me for permission to fork Wedge. Pride, something like that..? Or simply the fact that because you left me in that shit, you don't see any reason why I should be nice to you? (I'm not sure I do neither, but it's not the point! :P)
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Sure I did. The point is that that wasn't the signals you were giving out. You expected every commit of mine to be a higher standard than yours and you rewrote them to suit yourself.
Never, never, NEVER had any expectations on your commits. The only expectations I had was that you kept working on Wedge until it was out. Really, that was an expectation of mine, and really, that was the only one. The rest was all in your head.
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That's one of the things. It's out there, but most people never saw it - including the Customization Team because they would have said something about it.
Well, anyway, can you remove it or not..?
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Oh I understood but when I talked about doing an overhaul, you were pretty adamant that you should be the one to do it,
A personal failure, yes. Like many others. I prefer not to dwell too much on the past, though.
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I don't disagree... and one of the comments of the time - about preserving the SMF legacy - is also just as true today as it was back then. The project is on the verge of collapse, to the point where several senior figures were very enthusiastic about the idea of my contributing code.
Well, I did talk with Bryan (who recently resigned) about using Wedge as a basis for SMF 3.0, but apparently the idea is a long way from making any sense, especially considering that it comes with a recommendation that SMF can only survive if the dev lead is also the project lead, so... Not realistic enough, I guess.
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Unfortunately, a certain person publicly called another person a lying two-faced cow, and I realised how much they were running around stabbing each other in the back.
Good fun.
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Unfortunately in my world I just see things I could have done better. I rarely spend time thinking about what I've achieved, it's always what I could have done better. I've been that way most of my life.
You should work on that.
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Here's the thing, you made it quite clear that a return on my part would be on your terms, not mine. That's not a situation I'm prepared to compromise on.
My terms are not very demanding; I still have a few people who are ready to help. I don't think I'm being unfair when saying that I'm now going to make all decisions, because that's precisely what I've been about in the project: the more stable developer. Perhaps not the 'best equipped' developer to handle an entire SMF fork by themselves, but still devoted to their task. (e.g. I'm not sure why I'm typing this long reply when I could be downstairs watching the latest 'Whitechapel' with Milady...)
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Since I apparently have to declare my plans to you: I'm not going to contribute to Wedge or SMF. I may share ideas with Elkarte. I am primarily working on C# and Unity and exploring my CMS ideas in my spare time with a project based on SMF 2.1 called Pyrapage.
'kay.
Where does that name come from..?
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From my perspective, the latter tends to end up being listening to the difference advices and then going with what you were going to do anyway.
Good one.
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I won't deny, I've been a little happier in recent days where the only person I'm really answerable to is myself.
Good, at least someone is happy with the outcome, eh..?
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Where I don't have to argue things, where I can just run with my instinct and not feel like I need to defend every decision I make,
I dunno, it looks to me like you're trying to defend your choice of generalizing autoloaders, rewriting scheduled tasks, things like that. I'm not complaining. I'm always interested in you sharing your technical knowledge. And yes, I call that 'contributing to Wedge'. It doesn't always have to be about pure code.

PS: I was hoping to make my reply much shorter... Still, I'm getting closer to a manageable size. I dunno if I can keep it up much longer, though.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 13th, 2013, 11:12 PM
Unlocked topic if anyone wants to comment.

First time in my life I find the 'Bottom' link to be of any use... :lol:
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 13th, 2013, 11:32 PM
Aw nice, so now (again), at least dev stuff is something I can contribute to:
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
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You and I both did search and replace across a hundred files at a time. What's the difference between that and doing it on a smaller scale?
Because not everyone knows about grepWin or other mass s&r tools, not everyone wants to deal with these..?
Graphical S&R tools - even grepWin - are a pain to use IMO as they rarely do more than applying sed commands to a certain subset of files. Wedge could have been finished if you had used the command line instead. (Well, OK, probably not...)

Most text editors have a good (and some have a mediocre) built-in S&R by now. I'm not sure if grepWin counts as an insider tool anymore.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
because of this or that obscure setting in PHP or MySQL that makes the whole thing 12% slower than if I'd done it this way.
The "obscure settings" are documented well; at least you could find them if you want to. :)
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
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It's a funny old world... I discovered that SMF and phpBB are working together of sorts these days in an attempt to try to bolster the forum market, amongst other things.
Haven't heard about that.
They don't seem to do it too successfully either. SMF's market share decreases AFAICS.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
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No, WordPress is no longer a blog platform in the public perception. It's long been understood that it's a CMS, even if it isn't a very good one at that.
If you say so.
The public perception is wrong. WordPress brings basic CMS features indeed, but it still focuses on simplifying setting up a blog. The public perception is driven by marketing people who never touched a single line of code, that's why the public perception is a perception of stupidity.
Quote from Nao on September 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM
Well, I did talk with Bryan (who recently resigned) about using Wedge as a basis for SMF 3.0, but apparently the idea is a long way from making any sense, especially considering that it comes with a recommendation that SMF can only survive if the dev lead is also the project lead, so... Not realistic enough, I guess.
I'm not sure if using a fork as the base would work anyway, given that it's mostly unreviewed code (which might not fit SMF's coding standards) and I'm not convinced that SMF heads into a modern direction at all.

jm2c.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: live627 on September 14th, 2013, 01:32 AM
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Well, then it's simply a feature that plugin authors won't be able to use, unless live627 (or you) steps upis recruited by me and offers to fix it.
FTFY. Seems to me that that is closer to the truth. "Stepping up" implies the ability to ask to be promoted at any time at will, which doesn't work in closed "ivory tower" development projects, such as this.
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Well, I did talk with Bryan (who recently resigned) about using Wedge as a basis for SMF 3.0,
Can I see pigs fly first? :P

Wedge won't become SMF 3 because it's not "just a forum". That, and mod compatibility is totally broken...
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might not fit SMF's coding standards
Oh, it will. Just... not the ideology.
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none of us ever tried to make a non-default theme, even just to 'see' if it would work
Oh... right....
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 14th, 2013, 04:38 PM
Oh, Pete, I'm not expecting a reply from you, but I was wondering about one thing... Since you're the MySQL guy here. You kept telling me that the approved flag on posts should be left unused because of its bad specificity, the fact that it kills performance to search for flags set to 1, or something, when most are.
What if instead we search for id_msg NOT IN (SELECT id_msg FROM wedge_unapproved_posts), or equivalent? I think there's such a table in the database... Haven't studied it, dunno what it does, but I suppose it holds a list of all unapproved posts, and if it doesn't, I can easily create a new one and fill it as needed. With just that -- a list of items that are unapproved and should be ignored.

I had another question about your repo, but I forgot, ahah...
Quote from forumsearch0r on September 13th, 2013, 11:32 PM
Most text editors have a good (and some have a mediocre) built-in S&R by now. I'm not sure if grepWin counts as an insider tool anymore.
grepWin has a nice UI. I used to use another software, written in Delphi something like 10 years ago, until I discovered grepWin. It didn't do replacements, so I then had to use another software to do these, but OTOH it had a nice feature that grepWin doesn't have, it actually showed hits 'in context' with a click, rather than just a single line in a long list of hits. The only way to do that in grepWin is to actually double-click the entry, and then re-enter the search in Notepad2.

Also, Notepad++ may be popular (and I use it for many files), but I've never liked its search tool, it requires too many clicks anyway.
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They don't seem to do it too successfully either. SMF's market share decreases AFAICS.
To whose profit..?
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The public perception is wrong. WordPress brings basic CMS features indeed, but it still focuses on simplifying setting up a blog. The public perception is driven by marketing people who never touched a single line of code, that's why the public perception is a perception of stupidity.
That's a bit unfair. Go tell that to the web design community. Most of them are very techy, and still consider WP as a proper CMS tool, so... I dunno. I guess it's just a matter of what you think a CMS is, eh..?
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I'm not sure if using a fork as the base would work anyway, given that it's mostly unreviewed code (which might not fit SMF's coding standards) and I'm not convinced that SMF heads into a modern direction at all.
I fit SMF's coding standards better than anyone in their team... I'm the ayatollah of SMF coding guidelines. Well, maybe I don't follow all of their documented guidelines, but I'm so used to the SMF codebase, I tend to stick to its choices, and I actually like them.
As opposed to WP's, for instance... (As we say in French -- beurk !!)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 14th, 2013, 04:43 PM
Quote from live627 on September 14th, 2013, 01:32 AM
"Stepping up" implies the ability to ask to be promoted at any time at will, which doesn't work in closed "ivory tower" development projects, such as this.
Well, I guess you already know that I'm reluctant to address this whole point; after all, you and Dragooon are the most pivotal contributors to Wedge right now, and I'm horribly scared of re-doing with you guys whatever Pete left the project over, so I tend to be in a mood where I'm the only coder around, I suppose.
It might help if you could both establish a list of things you want to work on, whether it be plugins you made that you think should be core, or feature improvements, or entire thematic areas of the code you want to add your touch to, etc.
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Wedge won't become SMF 3 because it's not "just a forum". That, and mod compatibility is totally broken...
As I said, I just discussed it. The only time I thought it was possible was a year or two ago, and back then, I was considering the possibility of just being co-lead dev at SMF, while now I would require the project manager position as well; not because I like accumulating badges, I don't give a damn about that, but simply because I think the only time SMF made great progress was when it was handled by its lead developers, so it's an easy decision, to me... But one that would put off most people in the SMF team, I think. They'd rather see SMF die than take their chances. (They could always leave the team if they're unhappy, but...)
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none of us ever tried to make a non-default theme, even just to 'see' if it would work
Oh... right....
I'm not sure I get it. Do you mean you just realized it was true, or do you imply you actually made a theme, and it worked..?
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 14th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Quote from Nao on September 14th, 2013, 04:38 PM
Notepad++ may be popular (and I use it for many files), but I've never liked its search tool, it requires too many clicks anyway.
Ctrl+h and the Tab key should work. :whistle:
Quote from Nao on September 14th, 2013, 04:38 PM
Go tell that to the web design community. Most of them are very techy, and still consider WP as a proper CMS tool, so... I dunno. I guess it's just a matter of what you think a CMS is, eh..?
--> Stupidity :ph34r:

Compared to full-featured CMSs like Typo3, WordPress is, uhm, a bad joke? Sure, it works as a "news website" or website for a small project (especially with the bbPress plug-in), but I'm sure that most of those who think of WordPress as a CMS have never actually used a CMS.
Quote from Nao on September 14th, 2013, 04:38 PM
I'm the ayatollah of SMF coding guidelines.
:lol:
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 15th, 2013, 05:33 PM
Quote from forumsearch0r on September 14th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Ctrl+h and the Tab key should work. :whistle:
This feature doesn't support multi-line replacements though, AFAIK. grepWin does, OTOH.

600 posts left to be at 14k... Phew...
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 15th, 2013, 05:34 PM
Hmm, haven't used N++ for a while. No "Replace All" button? Sorry then.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Hristo on September 15th, 2013, 08:04 PM
Quote from Nao on September 15th, 2013, 05:33 PM
Quote from forumsearch0r on September 14th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Ctrl+h and the Tab key should work. :whistle:
This feature doesn't support multi-line replacements though, AFAIK.
Indeed multi-line search and replace is very useful feature, yet most good free editors does not (fully) support it.

This plugin changes that in NP++.
http://www.phdesign.com.au/programming/toolbucket-multi-line-search-plugin-for-notepad/

But it does not work well with non-Latin characters (specifically Cyrillic). The best free editor with good multi-line search and replace support I know of is RJ TextEd(http://www.rj-texted.se/).
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 15th, 2013, 08:14 PM
Yes, there's a Replace All, but you can't enter multiple lines of text to replace with another few lines -- the search terms can't span multiple lines, see..? That's where grepWin does a better job, really.

@Hristo, thanks for the heads up!
:edit: Wow... 44MB for RJ TextEd...? Nice! :lol: :^^;: Still, I'll give the portable version a try, it looks from the screenshots like there's no extra spacing between the right scrollbar and the edge of the screen, a no-no for me (which, unfortunately, Notepad++ has. Yes, it's that silly...)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 15th, 2013, 08:25 PM
Quote from Hristo on September 15th, 2013, 08:04 PM
The best free editor with good multi-line search and replace support I know of is RJ TextEd(http://www.rj-texted.se/).
Have you tried Vim?
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 15th, 2013, 08:40 PM
Alright, tested TextEd a bit... Very disappointed. There's a single pixel on the right side that doesn't do anything when you click it. If it weren't for that single pixel, I'd be able to scroll without having to very clearly target the scrollbar. Too bad.
Also, couldn't get syntax highlighting to work, uh uh... Other than that, it looked okay, but that's all.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Hristo on September 15th, 2013, 09:38 PM
@forumsearch0r
Yes, Vim was one of the many editors I tested, when I looked for good (that is FAST) viewer/editor for giant files. Vim can handle unlimited file size, which is very good, but is a bit too slow to open them. I do not remember how good is Vim's search and replace though.
Quote from Nao on September 15th, 2013, 08:40 PM
Alright, tested TextEd a bit... Very disappointed. There's a single pixel on the right side that doesn't do anything when you click it.
That is a good point!

As for highlighting use that button on the toolbar (http://i42.tinypic.com/2h3s8pd.jpg)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 15th, 2013, 09:47 PM
Quote from Hristo on September 15th, 2013, 09:38 PM
do not remember how good is Vim's search and replace though.
Given that it does not support PCRE (unless compiled with Perl support which makes it pretty easy, :perldo s/<text>/<text>/gi, its usability is great: :%s/<text>/<text>/, using Vim regex syntax.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Pandos on September 16th, 2013, 03:12 PM
http://www.sublimetext.com(http://www.sublimetext.com/)
I love it!
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 16th, 2013, 05:11 PM
SublimeText has never been my cup of tea-- last time I tried it, it was missing 80% of the functions I think should be core in any text editor, so... Well. And I'm not really talking about complex features-- I'm talking about UX things that are really, really basic.
Quote from Hristo on September 15th, 2013, 09:38 PM
That is a good point!
I'm thinking that's ironic... :P
But I really, really need to be able to put my mouse cursor on the far right, inside the scrollbar 'button', and then be able to drag the button along the scrollbar. I can roughly aim my cursor to the button, but I don't see why I'd have to do it on both axis (horizontal/vertical), when with a scrollbar that sticks to the window edge, I can simply aim vertically, and expect the horizontal position to be right inside the button, since it sticks to the edge. Anyway...! This is, along with tabs, one of the reasons I adopted Opera many, many years ago. Most browsers do it now, but some won't, and that's a direct bye-bye from me.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: BurkeKnight on September 16th, 2013, 09:53 PM
I usually use Notepad2 for my editing.

Does not do multiple lines for replace, but I don't need it too.

I actually like the cPanel filemanager (newer cPanel versions, not that POS Legacy one, or the one most free web hosts use.)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 18th, 2013, 04:27 PM
Notepad2 doesn't have tabs, which was the reason I never actually used it either... ;)
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: Nao on September 18th, 2013, 04:37 PM
Well, Notepad2 NOT having tabs, is precisely the reason why I'm using it for all my PHP/JS editing... ;)
It's just a matter of taste, really! How you organize your workspace, etc.
Me, I have Notepad++ running permanently with about 10 files open (including the Wedge to-do list, which only I can decipher, and my Deideo to-do list, which none of you would be interested in. (It's a French website about music theft... Well, tentative website.)
And then, all of my other files are files I'll tend to open and then close later, so I keep them outside of my tab system, and it's easier for me to sort them mentally.
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: forumsearch0r on September 18th, 2013, 04:41 PM
Quote from Nao on September 18th, 2013, 04:37 PM
Well, Notepad2 NOT having tabs, is precisely the reason why I'm using it for all my PHP/JS editing... ;)
Hmm ... have you tried Emacs? :whistle:
Switching between open documents: Ctrl+X B

(http://i.imgur.com/j9u1XYM.png)

While we're at it: Why does Wedge sometimes send me French, sometimes English notification mails?
Title: Re: Not So Mixed Signals
Post by: colby67 on September 18th, 2013, 06:06 PM
Tried several editors, including SublimeText..but always return to editPlus. It just suits me fine, and have been *very* stable.