Oracle's post first. I realise what Oracle is trying to do and I want to answer it before I answer Nao's more complex and more involved post. Replying to Oracle, essentially, is replying to the community as a whole before I address specific issues with Nao. Not being funny but I'm not sure you've been listening to what I've been saying. A relationship is not healthy when one person actively feels they can't air their grievances because they're afraid of what the other will say, or when they blame themselves for everything even when it isn't necessarily their fault.
The key is communication and ones ability to air any grievences as they arise and clearly, so the other half fully understands where he or she is coming from.
I tried that. It didn't work, because the times I tried to broach the subject about not being happy about the way things have gone, it's actually gone ignored. For example, Nao's complaining about last year and my absence... well, given that I'd just gone through a breakup after 10 years of being a couple, moving house, and a breakdown, is it really so surprising that I should snap and want a break?
The need to sit down and discuss matters in an attempt to resolve issues and to reach compromise is the only way
What's to delve for? I thought I made it perfectly clear what my problem was. I can't work with Nao any more. Whether that's my *fault* or Nao's fault, or a bit of both is absolutely irrelevant. The simple fact is that through everything that's happened I just cannot bring myself to work under him any further, and make no mistake it's not about working alongside him, it hasn't been that for a while.
From an outsiders perspective the communicae between you has been considerable, but neither have really attempted to delve further when you sensed something had possibly gone wrong. What happened?.. a grey area was allowed to fester because of a lack of REAL communication between the pair of you. And to this day there is still is no resolve. Sure you appear to have gone your separate ways but deep down is that what you REALLY want?
No, it's not what I *wanted*. What I wanted was to not have to have gone through this in the first place. To have worked alongside Nao as an equal, but however it's perceived by anybody else is irrelevant. I do not consider myself to have been considered as an equal in this partnership. I feel like I'm on the wrong end of a D/s relationship and I couldn't say stop loudly enough to be heard.
That's the problem. There's not been much of that for a while. I looked back through my last commits, of the last 6 months. Most of what was added was not with a triumphant sense of completeness. Most of them were bug fixes, better than half of them were *my* bugs being fixed because I didn't do it properly the first time around. Of the stuff I actually did that doesn't fall under the bug fix category, they were mostly features that I added because I could see the use of them and it would make Wedge better - but don't mistake that for the fact I *wanted* to implement them. I implemented them for Wedge's benefit.
The triumphant sense of completness and fullfillment that is unparalleled to anything you have experienced before.
In fact, of the features I've added, I actually don't see myself using most of them. I added them because I felt Wedge needed them, which is something quite different to 'because I wanted them'. I don't mind this in principle, I did it a lot for SimpleDesk too.
Well, that's not how I see it. The common denominator is actually SMF. Wedge was born out of a sense of frustration with SMF's development - and 2.1 is no different, honestly - and a shared sense of self-righteous injustice about how we'd been treated by SMF's project team. Even the name comes from that, it's a type of simple machine. And that's another reason we disagreed on something; at the time we were happy for the fork to have a suitable name but it's only recently that Nao mentioned to me about changing the name because apparently not doing so would mean we're catering to ex-SMF people - which is not true, there are people who would change software just because it has more things that they want and wouldn't care about the name. I doubt anyone really cares about where the name vBulletin comes from.
The common denominator in this is WEDGE and it is on the verge of becoming something worthy of your talents.
I would appeal to the community to read what I've been saying, then. You're telling me that I should put my personal matters aside for the good of the project, yet doing so would mean that I would be working my ass off for something I don't just resent but actively dislike... there is nothing healthy about this. Not for me, not for the project. That's where we're at... any contribution I make to Wedge is going to be fuelled with resentment. See, things cannot ever go back to how they were, I won't allow myself to be an emotional doormat, and I won't tolerate effectively being told how to work or that I shouldn't do things.
The community appeals to you to try and raise above what has happened.
I've had that problem for months, where I've ACTIVELY felt like I can't touch the front end because I know it'll upset Nao. Seriously. Even something as minor as making the search function offer 'this board' and 'this board (and its sub boards)'. Even though Nao raised it as a bug that it was not how he thought it should work, I was still uncomfortable adding the change because it's something on the front end - and that's not even a thing that's on every page (it's loaded AJAXively)
When I get to the point where I'm *afraid* of adding a single item to a dropdown that's already there because of how it'll affect the rest of the user interface I know something's wrong.
Yesterday going through SMF 2.1 and reapplying stuff like converting to UTF-8 only, I was reminded only too well of how far we'd come. And I remembered what I wanted to do in Wedge, and I remembered more importantly how much I'd already compromised on in the name of the project. There are things I wanted to do since day 1 that I was overruled on and I just let it go because I didn't feel I could say anything. In hindsight I wish I'd spoken up more but I'm not sure anyone would have listened.
Think of how far youve come and attempt to move forward as an invigorated new team hell bent on proving that 2 guys can succeed doing it alone.
If you want to see what happens when two guys can succeed going it alone, don't look at us, we're a bad role model. Look at XenForo. Two guys and a business manager. And they've come a helluva long way in 3 years. Now you can argue that they're paid and all, but the point still stands, they're just two guys who've come a long way in 3 years. Far further than we ever did as far as I'm concerned.
History lesson #1: 3 years ago, I was already working on my own software from scratch. Seriously, I probably even still have the SVN repo somewhere. And the things I was going to do with it... I had unique ideas about ways of doing things - and not one of those has emerged into Wedge, not in three years. Not ONE of the things DragonBB was going to be able to do has materialised. Some of them I realised weren't worth it, but some of them were simply because I don't feel I can introduce them.
History lesson #2: how did Wedge begin again? Well, it started with two guys that had been effectively pushed out of the SMF project. I had just written the first proper version of their helpdesk, Nao had just been vetoed from joining the SMF team proper (and lied to him about it). We were kindred spirits so to speak.
This after all was you prime motivation that spurred this project into what it is today and how it could be should both of you follow it through.
Combine that with the way SMF was going - we remember January 2010 only too well after the management held the project forum hostage from the team unless they signed an agreement. This was when SMF was still in RC times, on the way to RC4, we were genuinely concerned that SMF wasn't even going to get that far and we had grand ideas about being the torch bearers for the spirit of SMF if not the name.
The prime motivation wasn't about seeing how awesome we could make it, it was saving the project. And in hindsight it did to a degree - though SMF is still a long way from redemption. In the very early days it gave them competition and motivation of sorts. It still took them almost a year to get SMF 2.0 out through another RC (and RC5 was mostly about a security issue I told them about, some may remember the fact that I had to work out whether my sense of ethics overrode my distaste for their politics, and ethics won)
Fun fact, did you know at one point live was given access to the Wedge repo for committing? It was removed something like 2 days later, at least judging by the logs and while I can't remember exactly what was said and by whom, I seem to remember it wasn't pretty. I'm seriously not the only one that has been on the wrong end of the attitude here. But if live is up to the task (and he seems to be aiming for it given some of the comments around here), more power to him.
Show each other a greater level of compassion and understanding so that you may rejoin forces for the greater good.
My point, which I am most assuredly getting to, is that I could show Nao all the compassion in the world but I doubt it would make a lot of difference going the other way.
I have made it known on multiple occasions that I was not keen on the constant rewriting. I make it clear that I didn't like committing things knowing they were going to get rewritten, to the point I flat out said that he should just write things on the front end instead because I felt like I was submitting half-assed work all the time.
None of this was commented upon at the time, if I remember rightly. Communication relies on both parties talking and both parties listening. I've done enough talking, and I'm not being heard. And I haven't felt like I've been heard for a while. The problem is, were I to rejoin now, one of two things would likely happen, either things would quickly be how they were (which is unacceptable to me)
I don't know, how about http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290521/#msg290521 for a general commentary about the sidebar, but the real comment was http://wedge.org/pub/feats/8208/more-sidebar-complications/msg290469/#msg290469 where I launch into a variety of exciting reasons not to use middle click, to which your solution was to put it in the tooltip of the 3-bar icon but also made the 3-bar icon itself clickable. While the icon being clickable is a great improvement, there is just not the argument for middle click - which I made *perfectly* clear and you went and did it anyway.
Where was that? What message?
You don't *need* to. You will be able to find people who can step up to the plate if they believe in the future of the project. I see you have live earmarked as such a candidate and I'm pretty confident in his abilities to handle stuff like security and optimisation as well as the plugin stuff. (No, you're not going to guilt me into returning because of that stuff. If you don't want to learn how a system works, find someone who does. But you're not going to guilt me into returning over that.)
Do I need to..? Do I want to?
Is Wedge everything I need to know about in life?
Do you want to? Having a general sense of understanding about these things can be important. It is why I want rid of the Flash based uploader, very badly, because it's a form of vulnerability, and I'm not sure how badly it can be exploited, I've never tried it.
No, you're right, you never expected me to work too much on the front end. Other than giving you feedback about the CSS preparser (which, by definition, I wasn't going to be using very much), of course, judging by how often you asked about it.
just like I'd never expect you to work too much on the frontend area.
The thing is, you didn't just 'not expect me' to touch it, you ended up making me feel uncomfortable about touching anything in the front end.
But the thing is, there were times when you didn't want me to touch the backend either; I made it clear I had very real concerns with the way Aeva's code is structured, as well as usability issues. All of the latter were documented (this thread(http://wedge.org/pub/8223/posting-from-mobile-including-aeva/msg290661/#msg290661)) and you even replied to them. Your response was basically, "Well, I've never done it so it's fine for me". Now, I can understand that, you're very passionate about Aeva. Which is why even now, three years on, even after you've given me express permission to change the admin panel, I still never touched it because I felt you wouldn't like the results (the entire admin panel area needed a rewrite to make it consistent with everything else)
And as for the mainline code in Aeva, you said that you wanted me to tell you the issues so you could fix them. While there is a valid argument there, there are valid arguments in the other direction too: I'm never going to learn about a system if I never touch its code. In the real world, it's good practice to have people that don't know a piece of code go work on it so everyone knows at least a bit about everything. For situations like this.
Let's say, hypothetically, I got hit by a bus rather than quit. You wouldn't have a choice but to either learn the system or find someone that could work on it. Like, incidentally, a large chunk of the code we inherited, we can't exactly ask who wrote it, we have to figure it out as we go along. But I felt that even within 'the backend' which was my domain, I couldn't even do that.
Unfortunately reality just doesn't work that way. Same argument applies, if you're not willing to get involved, find someone who is. There are people far better at this stuff than I am, and more than once I was quite willing to offer guidance to help you get an idea about this stuff for the future - it's not just about the queries, table design is important too.
I've never been into MySQL... That's the thing with me. To me, a GOOD system is a system that optimizes each of your queries, regardless of how you write them.
The thing is, the odds of a large forum owner being able to help you optimise queries? Slim. The biggest SMF forum out there cannot do anything with the database to save her life, which is why various people from the SMF community, me included, have been involved with her issues.
Yes, there's a reason for that, because you always had to do it one better. Even my fixes tended to feel like half baked stuff because they'd always get rewritten. Then there's stuff like Aeva and Pretty URLs that every time we had an issue, you didn't like the times I looked at bugs, because they were your additions and you didn't like me touching them.
You did very little rewrites to it. Only fixes. Most of the time you'd leave them to me, actually...
Therein lies the problem. Most of your stuff didn't really need rewriting, it mostly worked as is and I'm not quite the stickler for 'code cleanliness'. Which left my stuff feeling like it was half-assed all the time. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I don't know.
What I'm saying is, that's how I work in a team. I tend to supervise all code and try and make it look unified. My changes were mostly suggestions, or optimizations. I never felt that your code was sacred, and I never asked you to consider mine as sacred either. That was your problem to solve, not mine.
It put things in perspective. My issues were so much less important in the scheme of things than yours. And I suppose, I was honest with myself for once.
Then you have a strange way of showing it.
"My life fell apart today... Thankfully, I have Wedge to focus on, so I can change my mind...
- Just what I was waiting for! I'm leaving the project!"
You mean the part where I just split up with Liz, had to move house and had a sort of breakdown? The part where I did actually mention all this stuff?
Yes... But in a friendly manner, right...? Like last year, when you'd pretty much left the project for several weeks... I was in the dark at that time, didn't really know what to expect from you, so I started considering that you had unofficially quit... You didn't, but if you had, at least it would have been better than your last dramatic exit. (I'm not exactly sure why you're still dropping by, either...?!)
I dropped by to offer up an observation that struck me after a day of hacking away at the SMF 2.1 codebase, that seemed relevant and worth mentioning, especially as it validated something I'd already told you, which was that a friendly fork of Wedge on my side couldn't have worked, at least not in a contributory fashion.
There comes a point when you can't deal with the failure any more.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
Interesting, I know I fixed that bug in SMF 2.0 where it wouldn't let you send a message to an account under deletion, though I guess I left an exclusion in for admins.
I PM'ed him asking why he did that, and got no replies. I guess he felt I had nothing to bring to the table. Nice.
There are some people who would have been here because they're fans of mine, just as there are some people who would have been here because they're fans of yours, and some just following the dream. (I don't know whose dream any more. Someone's dream.) I also know Antes is contributing to 2.1's codebase. Maybe the combination of the two just meant he had nothing to contribute.
I wasn't honest with either of us, true. Then your bombshell made me realise I had to be honest with both of us. And I was.
And my girlfriend -- she doesn't have as biased an opinion as you might expect of you; still, she thought that you considering our multiple invitations to come visit us, the fact that you never even talked to me was proof that I should have been more careful. And that you weren't very honest with me, and worse, with yourself. :-/
On the other hand, these people came to me in confidence. They told me what they thought, frankly, with the knowledge that I wasn't just going to run away and say 'So-and-so says this about you'. I didn't even directly quote anything that was said, choosing to paraphrase. If they wish to make themselves known, they have the option to do so. But that's up to them.
Well, there are always people you're not going to name... <_<
I only mention what people tell me if I can *actually* name them and quote them on that. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything to me (or you). You know, like "Pete, I've heard that some people thought you were a jerk and were planning to hurt you... Oh, sorry, I can't tell you whom. I just thought you might want to know. Good night."
Last point first, it doesn't help? Maybe not, but I wanted to emphasise that this is not entirely just me going off the deep end.
What I want to say is -- saying this kind of thing; it's not nice to me or your 'friends', and it doesn't help.
Not nice to my friends? It's not ideal, no. But in an ideal world, they wouldn't have had to say it, I wouldn't have had to agree, and I wouldn't have had to paraphrase to try and make my point.
Not nice to you? No, no it's not. But it's not a pleasant subject we're dealing with.
You go on doing what you do. You don't run quite the same risk of licensing coming back to bite you when Wedge does ship because most things are now quite happily compliant with that licence.
Err... By saying I got to choose..?
Okay, so, I choose to keep the current Wedge license. What now?
As for me... this is one of the reasons I chose to explore my ideas with SMF rather than Wedge. It means I don't have to be concerned by the licence you choose. Heck you could legitimately have modified the licence to prevent me forking Wedge if you wanted. (Remember, we did originally have exclusions again certain people. I considered the possibility you'd add me to that list.)
Legally? Tough question. Wedgeward isn't a legal entity in any fashion so technically it can't have had copyright status (which I'm sure I mentioned in the past).
Can I change the copyright to just René-Gilles Deberdt, or do I have to keep Wedgeward alive, even though I'm the only one in it? You didn't tell me that... Do I have to add your copyright to all files you wrote?
However, I said the contributions were licensed under BSD. In this respect you can do with my contributions as Dragooon's are - under whatever copyright the whole package to whoever and just leave me in the contributors file. You don't even have to list what features if you like, just under the contributors.
This is why I wasn't going to fork Wedge in my own playground to avoid all that hassle. Yes, it would mean redoing everything that was awesome in Wedge, but since I can't see a situation where I'd be able to fork it both legally and in good conscience, I'd rather redo everything.
What if you want to make your own fork?
I wasn't going to ask you, because I wasn't going to do that. The only things that I know I can use are my own code and anything expressly licensed in such a way (e.g. BSD), and I still have an SVN repository I can look through to check. Or I can just write it from scratch, learning from my own lessons.
How awkward would it be that you have to ask me whether you can re-use some of my code that ended up in one of your features? Etc...
Yes, I'd rather go the long way around and make my own life more difficult to avoid complicating yours any more than necessary, and to avoid tripping on your toes. For example, my project doesn't have Aeva, this is a significant loss in the scheme of things to me, assuming I keep it up.
That's the beauty of it. They don't need to. That's for your benefit, not anyone else's. The code I wrote is thus available to you under BSD - I don't have to make it available to anyone else, nor do I have to worry about it. It's written, put out there into the repo and you're free and clear to use it as you see fit. That's what it means. Since you're the only repo that has it, you can choose whether to distribute it on its own or not. You don't have to, neither do I.
But since I'll be relicensing it, and it's not released yet, how exactly are people supposed to know what code is BSD and what isn't...?
Would you like a signed CLA?
I'll also add -- what is the legal value of the message you just posted? What legal authority could ascertain that *you* posted it, and that I didn't manipulate the database to make it look like you posted it?
I realise that. I'm trying to clean up the damage as best I can - because believe me, there's sufficiently slim chance of a reconciliation that it's not worth worrying about.
We didn't really care about the legal shenanigan because we didn't have anything to lose or gain from it. Once you left the project in a bad mood, so many things became obscure.
Go on then. You'll need to deal with the relevant part of the plugin manager too.
Ah, the bbc parser... Remember how I used to hate the fact that you moved them codes to the database without adding an editor somewhere..? Well, if I had to rewrite your code, it's not the first thing I would rewrite...
Yes, that was the plan. I still have a lot of C# to write and to make good on the $4000 I've spent on Unity so far. But I didn't want to waste the last 3 years of Wedge and the last 10 years of PHP. Most of the reason I got my ZCE was to use it with promoting Wedge.
- First, you told me you were leaving web software behind for a long time. It only took you one week to come back and, err... Basically tell me that you're forking SMF again?! Whether publicly or privately, doesn't matter... Wedge started out as a private fork. If you want to work on a SMF codebase and be your own boss, why didn't you just agree to my suggestion of splitting the project in two and try to keep it in sync as much as possible (and as we'd like)...?
I seriously considered forking Wedge. But the fact that within a day's commits, I went in a direction that screwed up compatibility, I realised that it's a noble goal that just wouldn't work. I mean, I've been shifting between the SMF and Wedge codebases for months and they're quite a bit different but I can keep it straight in my head as to what the differences are at the code level, so I'm only too familiar with the number of problems it causes and to be honest that's just something I didn't want to entertain - and I even tried to tell you that before I left.
Then we have the licensing stuff. Let's say I did fork Wedge and went off and made my thing with it. Let's say I get more popular because of the changes I want to make and my 'gallery' is cited as a major plus factor. How pissed off would you be with that? It'd still be Aeva, but a modified Aeva. Modified a long way. Trampling on your nice thing.
On the other hand, if I forked, I'd inherit the CSS preparser which is very cool but I still don't understand 80% of it and thus it's a feature I can't really use, I certainly can't advertise it and we all know my feelings on trying to keep skins in functioning fashion.
I didn't say it would become a piece of shit. I said it would be in a strange and awkward position. All the wesql stuff would have to be worked on - and while it's doable, it's a big PITA to do again.
- Each of us worked separately on what we thought would be best to implement in Wedge. That is, if you were to remove all of your contributions overnight, I would certainly be devastated, but that wouldn't mean Wedge has become a piece of shit.
Correct. But my point stands: I could have screwed the project over quite badly, though not irredeemably so, by withdrawing my contributions as is my legal right. It's not in the project's interest for me to do, regardless of anything else.
Neither of us single-handedly hand Wedge the best SMF fork out there.
So release it.
but I'm also of the opinion that it should be released now, and that anything else we want to add later, we can always write a converter to deal with. It's never been impossible.
I never got post banned by the SMF team.
Because I'm well known for my attitude, of course... And you're not. :whistle:
That's a valid point. Thing is, that's not what I'm getting at. I feel like even now you're trying to get me to defend my decision in the hopes of my going back on it. That can't happen, my poor willpower aside, because everything's changed. You're not going to trust me in future the way you used to (and rightly so), nor would I stand for the dynamic being what it was before.
I asked you not to flood the thought system with our discussions, and that it was best to centralize them into a single topic. I don't think anyone will complain about that. They're free to ignore this topic, while ignoring the thoughts is harder when you try to follow them all.
I popped in to post a single observation that I'd encountered that was relevant. It was one of those '*sigh*' moments and I thought it was pertinent to share. And then it exploded like it always does.
I still don't get why you came back to post this... You're free to do it of course, but I fail to see what pushed you to do it. I'm not surprised you came back; I'm only surprised your return seemed to be lacking any reason.
I don't really know how to. Even when on the road with Louis, we talked about Wedge every day, about things we thought it needed, things we'd like to see done with it and the dynamics of you and me came up a lot. He called it a "strange relationship" and it dug at me, the more I thought about it, the more I see he was right.
So, I'm not sure you'll answer this post either, but just let me tell you that it's hard to follow what's in your mind. You really should take a break. From code, from anything.
Oh wait, that's what you did last month...
Truth be told, I'm still probably on the wrong side of 'depression' but everyone around me seems to think I'm fine. I'm just not that honest a person, I guess, hiding who I really am inside from everyone. Everyone here thinks I'm a cheerful person with a hint of cynicism. None of them know the truth and I don't feel I could tell them.
Nope. I never added anything I ever did online to my resume, not back in 2009 when I was unofficial lead support for Sphinx search, nor later in 2009 when I was SMF team... in fact, at the last job interview I ever had, December 2009, it wasn't on there though I did explain it in the interview itself to explain what I'd been doing since being laid off in 2008, and used it as an example of trying to deal with management. I didn't get the job, either, but that wasn't because of that.
2013: I'm not even going to make $5K from it. But it rocks, and I'm proud of it. It'll be buggy when it's out, but it'll still be the best free forum software, and I'll be happy to add this to my résumé once I have to move my ass and find a job. And I suspect you will, too.
That's just it, though. Wedge isn't really competition to WordPress. Competition implies similar core functionality, and WP and Wedge are a long way apart. When blogs can actually be meaningfully used without a raw DB edit, then I'll consider it competition.
Well, Wedge is competition to WordPress, technically, so... :^^;:
Protendo is competition, too. Doesn't mean I can't have a good relationship with Bloc. He knows how much I respect his talent (and how disastrous it would be if we worked together... Still, I had to offer him the job, out of principle ;)).
So, when I have an idea that I want to play with, that I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere, that I may just abandon in a few weeks out of boredom or the shine's worn off or something else happens, I'm still supposed to have shouted it from the rooftops and made myself look even more stupid than I already do?
See what I mean..? We can be competitors, that's okay, but you need to be clear about all of this. By keeping everyone in the dark, you're only making things easier for yourself. And yes, I believe I deserve to be told, anyway.
Competition implies that there's actually a project to compete with. Right now all I have is SMF 2.1 with less features and a new title. That's not really competition, is it? Will it still remain that way in time? I don't know.
I won't argue that we had fun. But you had more fun than I did, and I've been trying to keep it going on my end for the good of the project for a while even though I wasn't having fun. I just tried to keep a stiff upper lip and carried on.
Whatever you may think of me right now, whatever I may think of you right now, it doesn't change the fact that we both had tons of fun during the last three years, and that I contributed to yours, and that you contributed to mine. It would be just plain sad to leave it at 'we're not compatible as a team' when effectively, we've done great team work for so many years.
See, as I said in the thoughts, I'm between a rock and a hard place and I'm basically fucked whatever I do.
As I see it, based on everything that's been said:
* work on SMF core - upsets you, means I have to work with Git
* work on Wedge - upsets me for all the reasons I've given
* fork SMF again - upsets you, gives me a lot of work to do
* fork Wedge - hassle because it will very quickly become unsynchronised and go in a vastly different direction
* do nothing - accept defeat and write off everything as a waste of time
Had I not left, my choices would have been different:
* carry on - getting more resentful of the relationship being wrong
* try to raise issues - feeling stupid in so doing, feeling vulnerable in so doing, suspecting nothing would change anyway
* quit - cause hassle in the interim while things get transferred and moved on
As I see it, I did the best thing I could for both me and the project; this way you get rid of someone who is probably capable but flakes out under pressure and has temper issues, and while there's pain in the initial phase, that'll pass. If this were a company, you would have fired my ass by now.
Posted: September 3rd, 2013, 04:44 AM
Let me just clarify one thing: I'm not saying no to a reunion because I don't want to work on Wedge, Wedge is not and in itself never has been the problem as such. I'm saying no to a reunion because 1) I'd hate the working environment and grow more resentful of things, 2) I think Nao would hate it and 3) Wedge is very awesome but I just don't see that where I'm going and where Wedge is going are the same place.
Guess I'll have to reply this, at some point...Sure, why not. But as the Apache CLA only applies to future contributions, I suppose you'll have to pre-date it..?
But my standards are mine, and only apply to myself. What you should say is, you can't live with the idea that I'm modifying your code. Except that sometimes I have to (oversights, bugs...), and other times... Well, it's just cosmetic. What should you be proud of? How you indent your code, or how it does something awesome or innovative..?
The reality is that I'm just not the same as you, and as I've said before I can't live up to your standards.
Hmm, not really..?
If you remove themes, 1) it absolutely prevents themers adding their own language strings
Although I have yet to figure this one out, I had in mind something really, really simple...
You just upload multiple folders to your site.
The skins folder contains your CSS and PHP stuff, and in your PHP code, you can simply declare a loadLanguage()...
It may not be super-practical, but it's no more unusable than the SMF way, I'd say.
And, knowing myself-- I'll probably even add a setting allowing for skins to load some language files automatically on every page. I already have a <language> setting IIRC (determining what languages the skin accounts for in the CSS files), so I'll just have to add a new one like <loadLanguage>, or something. As long as it's in beta, I can still change that kind of thing, and update all skin files manually...
If it's absolutely needed, then they'll tell me what I should change into a macro.
and 2) it absolutely prevents replacing templates on a large scale. Sure, there are some nods made in the other direction with <we:cat> and <we:title> but a themer simply isn't going to be able to go to town and really change up the look.
If it's not, then it's unlikely they'll simply update all template files for the sake of updating all template files.
Can't see why not..?
I see from the changelog you've made some more strides, but let me ask you this. You've seen Crossing Overland, with the menu down the side, with the other stuff that's in the theme. The ONLY thing managed by the sources code is the extra subtitle on the menu, everything else is in a custom theme.
Can that be recreated with just skins?
And here, I can't see what JS is needed exactly to make it work. I don't see any JS at hand here...
And even then-- <script include="mycustomskin">, and you're done... (??)
If someone needs an object method to be rewritable, I can declare it outside the scope, so that it can be redefined/overloaded/prototyped.
That's the point I was getting at: killing off themes and pushing it to skins means a designer can only change the markup they're given, they can't really go to town with new markup which is a considerable hit on flexibility.
Final HTML raw replacement
Dunno what can be done with themes, that skins could not do.
Of course, it's another way of handling things. And it needs documenting. That's where skins are weak. There's a basic documentation in Warm/skin.xml (the only thing I actually really worked on documenting, unlike Wess!), but it could be better, I suppose. I'll improve it as questions come and go.
I needed your expertise on many domains that I'm very weak at (database, security, UI, JS, and so on -- and yes, I got a bit better at UI, and I quickly realized I wasn't as bad at JS as I feared), and quite simply, I needed your enthusiasm. Two people is better than one. Oh, just a simple example... These days, Milady and I try to jog at least once a week, sometimes twice a week. We started slow with 12mn rounds, and now we're at 30mn rounds. We're still bad at this, but we're still doing it, because what matters is that we try. Milady told me today, after our jogging session, that she enjoyed running with me, because she did 45mn sessions many years ago, and stopped after a year because she was fucking bored. I told her, "you need me because you feel better when you're so tired and you see that I'm in an even worse shape; and you need me because you want to encourage me to keep you with you when you're feeling better." She agreed with that entirely. Sometimes, being two just means that when someone is not at their best, they can count on someone else to fill up their job, and when they're at their best, they're happy that someone is encouraging them.
We did some good stuff. And I'd love to see some good stuff from this project in the future because you don't need me. You never needed me, not really.
Sure. Removing themes would be a bold move, one in the likes of your own past bold moves, so I guess it's like the name change-- a way to make it clear it's "mine" from now on. However, all I want, at this point, is to finish the dozen or so features I want to finish (better privacy settings, better UI for blogs, etc.), and then release it to the world. I think that's what's going to make it clear that it's mine: I've always been willing to release it, because I am confident people will love it, as flawed as it is. ;)
You have the power to take Wedge in any direction you choose now, whatever works for where you want to take it, and for those who will undoubtedly follow you.
Ah, well, I tend to reply as I'm reading. I didn't read this post until now (I did read your previous long post entirely before replying, but that's more an exception), because I will usually be discouraged to reply after I've read. "Too many things to say, will take me hours to reply..."
I'm free to go away and think about what I want to say, and how to say it. I've read this post half a dozen times this evening before I replied to it.
So, I guess my posts tend to be seen as hot-headed, more spontaneous, unlike yours. Figures.
Okay, so, the censor code... It's less than 5KB, including all of the fancy scramble stuff. Or just 1.2KB for the core function. I don't see autoloading it as being very helpful for performance...? Heck, at worst I could simply have it in a Subs-Censor.php file, and loadSource it from within Subs-BBC if needed...
Firstly, accept the notion that you're going in a direction where you're loading stuff only on demand. In my world, primarily a CMS, I don't need a censor all the time. Inside the forum, perhaps, but not more generally. So I can hive it off somewhere else. And then only load it when I actually need it.
But it certainly doesn't make a project more manageable... Functions should be categorized by themes, not by size. I'd rather maintain a 100KB file for some Aeva feature, than have to deal with ten 10KB files with the same code, because every time I want to make a more global change, I have to search all of these files for relevant code, when in a single file, I can just do a quick search... Things like that.
Keeping the files a bit smaller, then, is a major difference. Especially when you typically already consume 10MB per page load just in general approach.
Look, the best example is skin CSS... Originally, I only had suffixes. Got plenty of files for each browser or action or whatever. Then I added @if support. Suddenly I removed most of those extra files, because it was much easier to maintain similarly themed CSS in the same file, rather than in multiple index.ie6.css-whatever files. Made my life easier...
We both have blame to share.
This last year we've both had stuff going on that has made it hard to focus. I'm sorry I wasn't more forthcoming either, because this might have ended a little differently otherwise.
Better than waiting until 2015 or 2016 for a release you'd finally deem suitable.
Eh, I don't know that they'll love it. They'll deal with it, simple as that.
Having a release out means that we can start considering things like whether to keep maintaining it. If it's a success (generating buzz, even negative buzz), then great. If it's a failure, then we stop, simple as that.
Okay, this post is so long, I'm gonna have to finish it another day, because... Because! I'm really tired.
Posted: September 13th, 2013, 12:12 AM
Dunno. I guess I can be convinced to switch to an all-bracket version of Wess by default (in index files etc), if people feel better about not having to deal with indentation, but I think it'd be a loss. One of the main advantages, though, would be the fact that Notepad2 would be better at providing syntax highlighting for it... :P
Firstly, there is evidence to suggest that themers don't like having to deal with specific CSS variations for a given system due to preparsers - like XenForo discovered - but I think Wess is strong enough that it'll overcome the issues.
Well, for now it's not removed; but I just have one thing to add: in the three years we worked on Wedge, none of us ever tried to make a non-default theme, even just to 'see' if it would work... I made so many changes to the internals, I'm not sure it'd work at all; it might be fixable and everything, but because my focus has been on making sure anyone can make a very minimal pseudo-theme (a skin) with just color changes or whatever with only a text editor and a FTP client (no admin manipulation, no database handling or anything), I'm hoping that once they get the feel of it, they'll want to add more features, which they can do while remaining in the same environment, as opposed to having to go through theme handling, which is more complicated, and more importantly, forces you to update your templates as Wedge or SMF is being updated.
I was against the idea for reasons I'd explained multiple times, including earlier in this post. I'm skeptical of the claim that you can do 'pretty much everything skin-less themes could do' because there are an awful lot of things that just aren't covered in that.
(If the theme system is removed, I'll probably be even more aggressive in splitting important templates into more functions and macros.)
I don't have the feeling that Louis had a problem with that, since he invited you for a long road trip together, one year after meeting you...
See, that's the problem... I don't like face to face meetings. I much, much prefer online communication. I'm rather inept socially in person,
And as a French speaking English like a Spanish cow (French expression :P), you don't think I would trip up on words as much as you do..? :P
because my brain thinks faster than my mouth and I trip up on words so much.
Me neither, but I was willing to be for you...
Heck, I'm not even on Skype.
Well, it never was about Wedge anyway. It was about putting a real person in front of the online contact whom I've been talking to for all these years. What did SMF call that..? A meeting of the minds...
That said, I think it might be nice to let this stuff go, and in a while when it's all settled and we're doing what we're doing, to just meet up, shoot the breeze. Not as would-be/wannabe/former partners in crime, but two geeks that are just friends, you know?
Anyway, I might be coming back to London within the next few months; nothing set in stone, but my girlfriend discussed the possibility of staying at her brother's over there, as he's expecting a new kid soon.
It's not about the number of users (you realize we'd have been thrilled to even have 1% of SMF's current user base, don't you..?), it's about filling a void, and making life better for at least one person. A success story, if you will, case by case, one at a time. I may have sold thousands of copies of my game, but what really pushed me to continue working on it at the time was these little stories where people were telling me they were successfully using KMJ as a tool for their physiotherapy. It happened several times, I have no idea why. I even once had an hospital ask me for a group order of copies for their reeducation unit; I told them they didn't have to buy them, of course.
Seriously though, there has been a mass defection to Facebook and Google+ over the last few years. All the forum packages are in decline, I've even heard from phpBB and MyBB folks that are seeing a decline in users for this very reason.
That was a factor for me, more than the salary that came out of it.
Absolutely... And it's also much easier to set up than a forum, but once your community outgrows the facilities offered by Facebook, it happens from time to time that you'll want to go serious with it. In fact, to me, Facebook didn't replace forums... It simply replaced mailing lists (partly), and free hosted forums that sucked so much. You know, these slow websites that were filled with spam and messages from people asking 'when are you going to use a real forum anyway...?', things like that.
For a lot of discussions, a group or page on Facebook will be enough, especially in response to something like a band or similar because they'll already have a presence on FB and don't really need to open up a forum for anything else.
Absolutely, that's one of the important points. There are some forums where I'm registered, where I wouldn't want to tell people my real name.
I can register on a forum and be effectively anonymous should I choose. It's not a single overarching thing where my family, my friends, my professional acquaintances and whatnot all get smushed together unlike Facebook.
Not that you CAN'T hide your identity on FB. One of my best friends has 'Yeo Wren' as his FB account, and that's actually his nickname. He never gave away his real name on FB, even though he's very active on it, and all of his RL friends are linked to his account. It's not that he's hiding his name... He just doesn't like revealing himself to anyone he doesn't know.
That's why I still have in my to-do list this item that says, lemme find it, "per-item privacy in profiles, e.g. real name". That means applying the usual privacy flag (contacts, members...) to individual entries in your profile area. For instance, you could put your real name in it, but only have it available for your conatcts. Or your e-mail address, etc.
Oh, that... Pete, I've always, always been against board index as the homepage for a forum. You'll remember I did rewrite the homepage early in the Wedge timespan, and even allowed for the ability to push a blog homepage as the main homepage of the forum. That is, to me, it's ALREADY a CMS per-se, although it's not really advertised as such.
Getting back on track though, more and more requests on sm.org are about bridging to WP or using it alongside an existing site, rather than it being the site as a whole.
(Possibly because I don't think saying "CMS" is gonna help make Wedge popular. If you'll look at cmsmatrix.org, they have over 1200 CMS systems listed... And they're almost all dead. To most people, CMS = what?! (and to them, WordPress is just a blog platform, only web developers/designers would really think of calling it a CMS); to a minority of them, CMS = WordPress (.net and Web Designer Magazine readerships :lol:); and to some of them, CMS = Drupal/Joomla/ExpressionEngine/SilverStripe/whatever CMS had a relative amount of popularity at one point or another. Doing a great CMS won't really help, as there are so many CMSes around already. What is going to help, though, is getting at least ONE great/popular website to use Wedge, and then popularize it by actually keeping using it. Again: one by one...
I didn't even know what PRISM was... I googled it, and was surprised by the amount of detail... So, that's what the Snowden story was about, uh..? Interesting. The media in France, I don't remember them talking about that at all... They only covered Snowden's escape, and I followed that a bit because it reminded of that amusing movie I saw a few months ago, Terminal.
As for people coming back to forums, I've been saying since 2011 that there's going to be a shift back towards forums as people start to reclaim their privacy. While I didn't predict PRISM, since 2011 I was speculating 2014 as the time when forums would reclaim some of the lost ground. While the PRISM stuff has died down a touch now, there is a swing back towards forums. I'm just expecting it more en masse next year.
Again and again: to me, it's a CMS all right, but CMS meaning "community management system", not "content management system". SMF, to me, like other good forum systems, excel in making users feel that they can set up a real identity on a website, and manage everything from one place. Call it a social network or whatever you like, but to me, it's just what the Web is about... Tim Berners-Lee himself said that the Web had always been about connecting people(http://arstechnica.com/business/2006/09/7650/). Facebook didn't invent it, SMF didn't invent it.
Oh, I've never doubted that the software needs to exist. I'm just challenging the notion that it has to be the primary focus of the software.
You can very much work on hiding forum contents from a website, for sure, and still have the forum power your user management.
I'm asserting the notion that a piece of software that allows you to run a website should allow for a forum but not be a forum with some other stuff integrated in to it.
Well, if anything, there are already plenty SMF forums that do exactly that. It's not new -- it's just not really advertised, is all.
Bloc is focused on doing that with Protendo, too. Noisen.com has done that from day one, of course -- I'm not really hiding the forum, but if you tell someone your blog's address, they don't really have a reason to go outside of it, so...
What I was against, as I remember it (and I'm old, so my memory is fuzzy), was that you suggested stripping the forum entirely from the software, and adding it back as a plugin of sorts. The idea was already floating in the air for SMF 3.0, and I hated that. I hated the idea that a CMS would have to be ashamed of its origins so much, when it should be proud that it skyrocketed in popularity, even if it typecast(ed?) it a bit.
The point where I suggested it, I forget where it was but it was on this site, and you were very hostile to the idea of having a CMS with 'the best forum plugin' and would much rather have the forum as the core and content stuff around it. At least, that's how it seemed, and after that I just dropped the idea.
Just look at noisen.com, it's come naturally really... Most of the users are just forum users. Most of the most active users have their own blog, where they can do whatever the fuck they want, without my intervention. A few less active users have a blog, but they usually drop it after a few months of inactivity; whether it's because they're intimidated by user comments or simply because they're not really talkative or just wanted to 'try out' the platform, I don't know, and I don't care... I just provide the tools, and I'm happy that a few people (including me up to 2010) are or have been using it. Even a dead blog is something to be proud of; I know that everytime I go back to nao.noisen.com, I have this 'wow!' factor when it comes to the contents of it, same can be said of cynagames.com though, KMJ is not dead, it's still played by hundreds of thousands in the world, that's just the way it is. It will possibly even outlast me, as a retro game of sorts... :lol:
A blog is a very different beast from a forum. A forum is essentially a democratic concept, where anyone in the community can have a say and speak their mind, whereas a blog only allows for the privileged few to speak their mind and let everyone else comment. True, a forum board can be used as a blog, and that becomes mostly a matter of permissions and UI juggling, but it's a very different beast to market and to work with as a whole.
And that's just great for them. That still makes it a forum... They just don't use the messages table as much as their equivalent thoughts table, I'd say... ;)
Messages are what a forum is *made* of. It's not what a forum is *about*. There are other components to a community, where messages don't necessarily make a huge difference. I look at the site I use to discuss development; the shoutbox has nearly 400,000 entries, while the forum has barely 3,000 posts, mostly which just summarise and formalise what the shoutbox had in it at the time.
It will be fixed over time.
The main reason I didn't want to run a release at this stage was simply because of how much stuff I felt was unfinished - not 'waiting for perfect'. The permissions stuff is still a mess.
It will be fixed over time.
The media area still needs a serious (IMHO) overhaul,
I understand that you woudn't like it. Heck, I'd be lying if I said I liked it. But the reality isn't that. The reality is, there are dozen of people who would be thrilled to use Wedge right now, and adopt it, even if it's not ready yet.
and to me that seemed like it needed to be done before 1.0 but I didn't know what to do with it. I just knew I didn't like it.
I'm pretty sure I'd have been the 'weaker one' in that relationship, i.e. adopting more of your changes than you'd adopt mine, because I'd really, really strive to keep repos in sync as much as possible, and globally, even though I may have sent 'mixed signals' myself, I'm really happy with most of the changes you made. Even if they destabilize me, overall I know that they're for the better, and they're good for Wedge, for its future popularity. Software reviewers are gonna like the visuals, but they'll be absolutely thrilled by the admin area, I think.
It was a good idea in a lot of ways, but I'm sure it would have failed for the reason above, we would have tried to keep things in step enough to be able to reuse each other's work and we would both have been hamstrung by it in time.
Well, I wouldn't see any of us as doing that merge; maybe by someone else if both of our projects had collapsed, but that may simply have been seen as a 'fork from multiple sources', I don't know...
It would have gone one of two ways, either it would have meant a complete separation much as we're at now, or it would have ended up diverging and converging after a while and a ton of work to bring them back under one roof (which would invariably have lead to a lot of rewrites)
The idea was simply to find a solution to the issue where we were drifting apart, and to allow you to focus on your other software projects, while giving me free reign to make decisions when you wouldn't be available for advice, that's pretty much it...
I can't help you here, I'm afraid...
Oh, I know that. At least, I think I know that. But my self esteem doesn't really care *why* it's being pulled apart, simply that the end result is a B-minus grade.
Hmm, I don't think I caught that one... :^^;:
I couldn't really find a better analogy, and I did want to make some kind of a meta reference, knowing one of the largest topics in the private board. It made me smile a little to make a private reference.
Neither of us are really team material; we're most likely 'alpha devs', meaning we should both be lead dev, which is why we shared that credit, and it worked... For many years; and to me, that's already quite a feat. FWIW.
Oh, it required team work, but I didn't entirely feel like I was doing good at being in a team.
But therein lies the problem. Committing something subpar was wrong
Have you ever seen how many times I rewrote so many parts of my code...? Just this week-- Zoomedia. I not only added hardware acceleration (which was way harder than I expected, because the real bottleneck in performance was not due to the software resizing, but rather to the constant layout reflow inside the popup, even if it just had a single image in it...), but I had to rewrite many things to make it work again, because it had become an unmovable stone, perfected to death over the months. It was as short as you could hope for, and yet I left this feat aside and decided to give priority to making it work. As a result, my final big commit didn't even mention the large increase in size -- something in the likes of 300+ bytes, rather it focused on the fact that it worked better, ah ah...
and trying to commit perfection meant I committed nothing while trying to make it perfect. My best just isn't the same level as yours, ultimately.
Maybe it was a homage to you, I don't know... :P
To me, committing has a special feeling: it's like I can leave that part of me aside, and focus on new things. As long as I don't commit, I have tons of ugly, dirty code lying around, and sometimes it just feels great to just revert that code, instead of keeping work on it, because some pieces of code need time to prove their worth, and when they don't, I just tell them good bye.
To a point. Certainly when working alone I don't have the feelings of inadequacy. I can just enjoy working on code for its own sake and it doesn't matter if I don't commit it, and it doesn't matter if I don't finish it and it doesn't matter if I abandon it.
Went to see it, and indeed, there it was in all its glory... Because it's available for anyone to download, yes it's public knowledge. Not popular knowledge, but it's there. There's a mod out there at sm.org that publicly accuses me of wrongdoings.
Let me show you something. This wasn't public knowledge. Some months ago I made a mod of some of the anti spam stuff in Wedge and released it to sm.org.
I'm above that, but... Well, I prefer when people who have something serious to tell you, do it in front of me, rather than vent on the side.
If you already had a problem with me back in April, then you should have told me, because there's no reason I wouldn't have worked on this on my side, or at least talked you into understanding what I'm doing has never been against you, rather I was just trying to contribute.
Anyone would have a breakdown over such a comprehensive rewrite, really...!
Interestingly the commit log from 21/4 (r2066) does actually mention that I was AWOL and had been for a day or so at least... This would have been in the middle of the thousands of lines of warning system rewrite that as I tried to tell people was close to giving me a breakdown all on its own.
Why do you think I never took it upon myself to do a complete overhaul of AeMe... :P
Well... I know it won't do me any favours as I've been doing my best to stay as neutral as possible in this, and to be understanding of your position and the difficulties you experienced in the last three years; but to be brutally honest Pete, yet, a part of me also screams 'man up!', and considers you a bit of a drama queen. We got together because we were both branded drama queens by the SMF team after all, and they weren't completely wrong. I've just learnt to be more philosophical about these things in the last year or so. I haven't been in a flame war for something like two years. The trick is losing interest. Looking back, I think it was a drug, coming as much from a sense of disbelief at the injustices around me (for some reason, any injustice around *me* seemed to be even worse), as a simple need for attention. As hard as it is to admit it, I did many things out of a need for attention, because of low self-esteem and a need to prove myself that I was a worthy guy, not by self-confidence, but by looking back and thinking, "okay, I made a few nice things". I'm sure today's youth are the same.
That comment wasn't actually directed at you, but everyone else who seems to say that I should just man up and accept that this is how it should be.
But then I just slowly drifted into the world of the adults (mostly due to real life) -- where nothing ever happens because you fear you have more to lose than to earn. I just played the Passion game with myself for so long... I can still be angry at injustice, but the difference is that now I realize I can't do much about these. Last time I saw one, I started a fork. Look where I am, three years later... The only thing that remains of the initial spark is the passion for building something so incredible. The anger, itself, is completely dead. Not that I love the SMF team or anything-- I just don't feel anything when I think of these stories, I see these things as childish. Childish that I played into the game of joining the SMF dev team, and especially childish that they themselves played with me and were frightened of losing control over me. Seriously-- this is free software we're talking about. Nobody should ever give a shit about having 'power' over something. What matters is what they bring to the project, not the aura they get out of it. Being happy with what you did in the past, is better for your karma than some irrational idea of being important. So, yes, everyone was being childish at that point, and I should have seen that. It wouldn't even have stopped me from starting Wedge, actually. Just... In a different state of mind, I guess.
Oh well, I'm seriously drifting off-topic. Sorry, I was typing as I thought it up.
I just think, you should embrace our differences. I can accept that you'd leave the project over not being able to accept my quirks, such as these compulsive modifications on your code. But I don't think you should feel betrayed by me, or anything. You should accept that I'm different. I accept that you're different, and I accept that it doesn't work for you, in the end. Just don't turn this into drama. Nobody died here. The worst that happened, is that some things you wrote very passionately are going to be left aside for the time being, maybe forever, but you can always come back and keep contributing to it. It's your decision, in the end, whether you contribute or not. I decided I'd get the 'final cut' on the software because most successful project have a single decision-taking leader, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge how crucial you've been to the project, and its future success. And it's going to stay that way-- anyone, especially me, would be outraged to see your name removed from the Wedge credits, even 10 years after your last contribution. I learned a lot in your company (I also missed out on a lot of opportunities to learn more from you, but... I'm just not up to the task). You've shaped Wedge in your own way, and that's good. Well, what can I add to that..? Not much. My post is already so long, and I can't expect anyone to read it entirely. If anything, I'm hoping you don't reply more than one-liners to it... :^^;:
It is slightly ironic that Wedge itself was founded on the notion that we shouldn't just accept how things are being on the wrong end of a team relationship that wasn't working, but that's what I'm being asked to accept 'for the good of the project'.
I see you're also trying to contribute to Elk, at least trying to convince them to adopt some of your Wedge changes. I just have to say-- make up your mind already! :P
The last few days have been very interesting. There are people that believe I should go and be lead developer for SMF in the hopes of rescuing it but I don't really see that working for much the same reasons, and I feel bad about working on my own project in light of the comments made here, but I still love the idea of doing different things with the forum and CMS concept. I guess I'll just have to bend over and accept something in the end :(
PS: I wanted to use the word "short of...", but I couldn't find any place. Any suggestions where I could have put it, short of here..? Oh, good, I managed to use it, yay!