Re: Re : Bloc Madness
« Reply #30, on April 8th, 2012, 01:31 PM »
Quote from Arantor on April 7th, 2012, 03:39 PM
If you're going to argue with me, get your facts straight. I have not joined the forum of any other fork, I was already a member of BlocWeb before that. I'd argue the other points regarding offering advice but I already explained that and it still falls into the fact that you're still too far up your own arse to see what I was getting at. A lot of my criticism of SMF is actually at the fact that too many people consider it "good enough" without stopping to see if it can be improved at all.

As for you distributing ViennaBBS, why is it my business? Well, apart from that fact you do still have good ideas, and competition causes everyone to stay on their toes, I have to consider the strong likelihood that people will use it, you'll abandon it and it'll be SMF, Wedge and others that will have to clear up your mess.
Oh I seem to remember a few sites at least, where you heated up and left,the most recent(If I am correct) was Dzinerstudio. But there was also SMF at one time, well, the now insignificant blocweb..and maybe others. But hey, unlike you I won't analyze that and say something idiotic about a person i don't know, so I can see there was perhaps other reasons that what was apparent right there and then and leave it with that. I have already described what it did look like for me - but you already stated it wasn't exactly what happened. There's not anything to say then really.

"Clearing up my mess"..lol, that was fun argument though. In what way, exactly? Do you make themes all of the sudden..? You do know I've sticked with SMF themes and TinyPortal since 2003, right? I don't have to explain myself really..but I'll do it anyway: when i closed off my site the first time, it was out of lack of interest from users + the amount of work I put in the paying themes felt a bit wasted. The few that subscribed were welcome of course - but it was a dwindling entity. I really wanted to just make the premium themes all free at that point. The final time I closed AND this time removed the themes even, there were only a handful of people even visiting BW. After some personal issues(again, that thing that you don't care to look behind the scenes, you just "conclude" comes to mind) I decided to stop right there and then.Brutal, yes.

I am not making any excuses for it. Teeanger stuff, heh, you can talk lol. At 45 I've learned that in THIS world its the important things that is worth sticking too. Sadly SMF themes isn't that for me any longer. it was at one time, but things like family, health, steady job and happiness(yes, its cheesy, but its also true) takes precedence.
Quote from Nao on April 7th, 2012, 04:12 PM
It has been said that I've been "brutal" to Bloc, even though I only wrote 3 lines in total on the last page. I figured I might as well post this longer message if, whatever I say, I'm seen as 'brutal'...

As for myself, I only ever joined another fork's forum -- EosAlpha -- and only posted to praise it. Of course, the fact that I have a link to Wedge in my signature can be seen as a shameful attempt to bring in more users, but that'd be preposterous -- Nightwish doesn't do anything to get people to have a look at his fork, and instead we at Wedge have been doing most of his marketing, offering it as a 'realistic' alternative to Wedge.
Mind you, we'd have done the same for ViennaBBS if we'd had any reason to believe it was going to be a reality. But the only thing that you released for ViennaBBS, is your logo (and even then, it's only on your blog, not on your official website...)

Yes, it took me 62 pages to find the perfect logo (reply #921) -- but unlike you, I have absolutely zero design skills, and I'm working hard to find it in me to do something inspiring. The fact that I made all of the skins available at wedge.org, all of the logos, all of the design concepts, is proof enough that I'm willing to work hard to overcome my weaknesses. It'd be much easier for me to just focus on things I can easily do (JavaScript and PHP) and just let Wedge look like another clone of SMF.

So that's what I did. In the meantime, all we got from you on the subject of ViennaBBS is wind. How many times did you declare on your blog that you never really planned to make a fork? That ViennaBBS was just a 'toy' for you to play with? Just like your themes. You remove them at will, regardless of what your paying users might have to say. (I may have stopped work on Aeva Media nearly two years ago -- but I issued security updates and left it online for everyone to enjoy. Because it's THAT easy to do, and THAT important if you have any respect for your users who, let's just say it clearly, also make you what you are.)

So, yes, apologies are in order. Keep working on ViennaBBS. Pete only wanted you to realize you were wasting your time (and your users') because no one will ever use some forum software that looks good and can disappear overnight because the developer decided he wasn't in the mood. But who are we to say. Enjoy your waste of time. In a few years' time, users will be running SMF, Eos and Wedge. And they'll have no idea what Vienna looks like, because they 'never went there'. I'm talking about the city, of course, because they'll never have heard of ViennaBBS *at all*.
Nao, you may ridicule as much as you like. I am not sure I can call myself an proper artist..but the point is: if I don't get a opinion from others about my work, that won't stop me from working on it. It may not be the next SMF, not even something along TP..but at least it will be something *I* feel good at working on. So yeah, I stick to my own things. Maybe they are of interest to others too in the future, thats an added bonus, but the main thing is that I can work with it and get it like I want, not being told by others along the way. And I do listen to people I respect, very much so - but I have no patience for know-it-all'ers. Thats where that "emotional" flaw comes in...hey, I am only human lol.

But seriously, thats was how I created TP on my own, more or less, doing the mistakes, learning things bit by bit..the TP team helped a lot too but I think they saw that angle and gave me the freedom. Thats also how I worked when I was at the SMF team, being the only one working on the graphic design for Curve(and Core btw) before collaborating on the bigger amount of code work for it.I had a lot of respect for several devs at that time, because they allowed me that room. And finally, thats how I work with themes too, trying new things no others did, sometimes its just right, but not always, you learn from it.Stop doing something just because a person or two says its "rubbish" isn't enough. Rebellious? Stubborn? surely. My nagging about more innovation,about using peoples skills rather than using who screams the loudest, those things come from that point of view.

So pardon me for jumping to a conclusion in a former post of mine: THIS is me, the "hit and miss" part was a bit inaccurate.And thats the only apology you will get I am afraid.

Nao

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #31, on April 8th, 2012, 02:06 PM »
Fair enough. But no patience for know-it-alls? I don't think so, considering how many times you derided the fact that it took me 62 pages of discussions with users to reach a consensus on the logo. That should have earned your respect if I'm to understand what you're saying...

Arantor

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #32, on April 8th, 2012, 02:15 PM »
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Oh I seem to remember a few sites at least, where you heated up and left,the most recent(If I am correct) was Dzinerstudio.
Read the full debate. I was actually asked to leave by one member in public, asked by another (non admin) member in private. So after it came to a head, I left. Same as what happened with sm.org, I was actually asked by a team member (who, as I now understand is a team leader) to leave because it brings drama. Newsflash: people who are passionate about what they do, they care about it, and that creates drama because they care.
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"Clearing up my mess"..lol, that was fun argument though. In what way, exactly? Do you make themes all of the sudden..?
No, but ViennaBBS is more than a theme, right? It's a fork, which means if people use it, it's not just their theme they have to replace if you get fed up with it, it's the entire platform, including vulnerabilities and everything else. Which means when you abandon it, people will have to uproot and move to other platforms, including having adequate converters.

Or it is just a theme that people can move to or from with little real hassle? In which case, go nuts, because when you inevitably distribute it and withdraw it due to boredom, people only have to find new themes, rather than move platforms.
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After some personal issues(again, that thing that you don't care to look behind the scenes, you just "conclude" comes to mind) I decided to stop right there and then.Brutal, yes.
Oh, I'm aware of your recent illness. It's just that if you take money from people for something you produce, withdrawing it at no notice and no explanation is beyond unprofessional and it's why I conclude you're unreliable and bordering even on untrustworthy. Brutal, yes. Even when I withdrew the things that I did, I gave a lot of notice to people, I discussed it with those who'd paid for support, and when it closed it was not a surprise. Even then for months after there was an explanation posted in place of arantormods.com.

This is the thing that people seem to forget: I don't know much about you other than what you present online. I've seen the years you put into SMF and TinyPortal and felt pretty strongly about respecting you and the effort you've put in. But the last year or so, you've dithered and disrespected people that looked up to you. What, then, am I supposed to think?
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Sadly SMF themes isn't that for me any longer. it was at one time, but things like family, health, steady job and happiness(yes, its cheesy, but its also true) takes precedence.
Oh, believe me when I say I understand about these things, having recently separated from my partner and having to adapt everything in my life around that face. And while I understand that health and happiness are important (and it was to preserve those in my life I closed arantormods.com), doing so by essentially disrespecting people is not really the way to go. But if you're happy insulting people who respected you, carry on, I mean that's what you're doing here - even after all this crap, I still have respect for your skills, which is why - incidentally - the last skin I made for Wedge was heavily inspired by one of your themes for SMF.
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So yeah, I stick to my own things. Maybe they are of interest to others too in the future, thats an added bonus, but the main thing is that I can work with it and get it like I want, not being told by others along the way. And I do listen to people I respect, very much so - but I have no patience for know-it-all'ers. Thats where that "emotional" flaw comes in...hey, I am only human lol.
There's a mutual incompatibility there: if you're building it for yourself, other people are not going to respect that. They'll want it for themselves and expect you to provide it for them. And if you distribute ViennaBBS as a fork, you will end up facing this incompatibility. This isn't me being a 'know it all', it's looking back at everything you've done - your work with SMF, your work with TP and BlocWeb, time and again you put the effort in and expect to hand it off later or it disappears into nothingness.

The same incompatibility is faced by Wedge, and SMF, and each of them have dealt with it differently. And that's interesting to note how they've independently reviewed the circumstances and come to different conclusions about how they've dealt with it, but I daren't go into what each has done, lest you think I'm somehow saying one is better than the other. Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages, and one is ultimately more community-centric compared to the other's much more cynical take on it.
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Stop doing something just because a person or two says its "rubbish" isn't enough. Rebellious? Stubborn? surely. My nagging about more innovation,about using peoples skills rather than using who screams the loudest, those things come from that point of view.
Loudness is relative. People who know the field should be considered more loudly than those who are new to the environment - but both should be listened to. And we do listen to both veterans and regulars. Most of the relative loudness is because the people who've been there and seen it and done it, they've encountered the problems and found solutions. We listened to the problems you raised about how themes don't have so much power, and we took measures to try and solve them, our approach isn't the best out there, but it represents what we consider to be the best compromise between everything, and naturally we want to share those details in case it helps others.

That's the thing, the 'know it all' attitude that I've displayed is actually a reasonably unselfish attitude, it's wanting to provide what I learned so that you can make something better from what I learned. I'm sorry that interfered with your pride, and there is a certain wisdom in making your own mistakes, but consider the alternative: if everyone stopped to make their own mistakes every time, we'd never get anything done because we'd always be continuously reinventing the wheel.

It was out of respect that I wanted to share that information with you, to help you shape things to solve all the issues that had to be solved, not out of some misplaced superiority complex. And the way you reacted, it might as well have been a request to leave, because you made it clear you weren't interested in what I had to say, so if you aren't going to listen to what I am going to say, what is the point of my staying?

Now here's the thing, you're making it clear that you're not going to listen to us, yet you're hanging around here, preaching about how things should be? Do you really have that little happiness in your life, that you claim to want so much, that you have to criticise me for my failings while displaying the exact same behaviour yourself, in some attempt to score some points?

I hope that you're enjoying this, I really do, because the more you continue down this route, the more you reveal how shallow you really are, and how little you really respect those who looked up to you.
Quote from Nao on April 8th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Fair enough. But no patience for know-it-alls? I don't think so, considering how many times you derided the fact that it took me 62 pages of discussions with users to reach a consensus on the logo. That should have earned your respect if I'm to understand what you're saying...
Except for the blatant hypocrisy in Bloc's rantings? He's calling me out for certain behaviours and carrying each of them out himself, in a textbook case of double standards.

If anything it sounds like he's lashing out to compensate for his own failings. You know, the same way it is the bullied that become the bullies.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #33, on April 19th, 2012, 03:05 PM »
Arantor, you are just annoyed that I didn't take your advice, and your reasoning isn't something I agreed on, especially around the mods/themes dilemma. You are very good at doing long and elaborate arguments about *anything* in a fashion that makes it seem you have all the answers - which of course you don't. I am no amtch for you there, thoigh I did try lol. But trying yet again the amateur psychology approach just shows how quick you are to conclusions.I blame it on the age. ;D

Nao, you are a rebel, with the bads and sometimes good that entails, your history around SMF has shown that as much. Well, knowing that I can't really be annoyed at whatever you sling my way, its most times in a sarcastic coat anyway. 

I guess its futile to reason anymore with you now, so I'll put it to rest now(not that anyone else really cares lol, the lack of response from others in this (split) topic probably is a sign of that) So, over - and out.

(I can't close this topic, but I could that would be my next action: *closing topic* )

Arantor

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #34, on April 19th, 2012, 03:20 PM »
No, I'm not annoyed that you didn't take my advice. I'm annoyed that you didn't even listen to it, since there is a big difference. You can disagree with what someone is saying and even do exactly what I was advising against but you could have given me some sign that you'd at least read what I'd said and taken it into account. Except that you don't do that.
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You are very good at doing long and elaborate arguments about *anything* in a fashion that makes it seem you have all the answers - which of course you don't.
And if you actually read those arguments, you'd see where I even acknowledge where I don't have the answers. I also actively encourage people to dispute my assertions and I will tackle them on the merits or flaws of the individual arguments. I don't know all the answers, but I've done enough that I have a pretty good idea. The difference is though, I'm also willing to entertain discussion on where I will be wrong.

I still find your hypocrisy incredible, because everything you accuse me of, you've done it on a far larger scale than I have. You want to point out my flaws, you should look at your own first.
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But trying yet again the amateur psychology approach just shows how quick you are to conclusions.I blame it on the age.
I base my conclusions on the evidence provided. You want to act like a spoilt brat who thinks you are best, carry right on, since that's how you're acting based on all the available evidence. I'm not drawing any conclusions, I'm just calling it as I see it. (Though, I won't deny, the time I spent studying counselling some years ago has helped me figure out just how batshit crazy you actually are.)

Nao

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #35, on April 19th, 2012, 04:19 PM »
Don't even bother with him, Pete... Bloc just amounts to a troll by now. :(

b4pjoe

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #36, on April 20th, 2012, 05:04 AM »
I'd like to just say one thing about Bloc closing his site unexpectedly to paying members. That was a low blow Bloc. I paid for a one year subscription last September to have access to ALL paid themes for one year. If you wanted to quit, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with you closing your site with no warning and not giving people ample time to download the themes they have paid for. You should have set a site up where the themes were available to every paid member until their subscription expires. You don't have to support them. You don't have to make new ones. But you should make them available to people that paid you with their hard earned money. Or refund their subscriptions based upon the amount of time they used their subscription until you pulled the rug out from under them. I feel like you picked my pocket while I wasn't looking.

Nao

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live627

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #38, on April 20th, 2012, 08:30 AM »
All subscribers from blocweb.net are now at a loss, out some dollars (from 40 to 70 IIRC), and are angry at what basically amounts to fraud, or the denial of paid services and/or goods.
Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #39, on April 24th, 2012, 01:23 AM »
Bloc, I can see your theme site is back up (http://www.blocweb.net/index.php?action=bwgallery).

  • So, were you planning to restore it under ViennaBBS all along? Or, did you snap under the pressure of screwing users over?
  • I had to pick out the blue letters in your verification question. Thankfully, I'm not color blind, but those who are will be trapped at the gate.
  • Your breadcrumb trail didn't lead me too the message index. This could be by design, though, to force users to get to the threads through the themes area.
A confident man keeps quiet.whereas a frightened man keeps talking, hiding his fear.

Nao

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #40, on April 24th, 2012, 08:32 AM »
Apparently, his account here was removed... Was it you, Pete?
Or did something happen? :P

Anyway...

Bloc's site? I don't think he planned 'anything'... He think he was just bored one day and built that. In a few weeks time he'll be bored again and so he'll remove his site for another few months...

Seriously, I have no idea how his, err, users, can still post nice messages about him over there, right after he re-opened his site after closing it for months... ::)

Nice design though. But what less can we expect of the Bloc? I've always considered him better than me in terms of pure design (and JUST that :P). I'm more interested in knowing when he'll start working on his people skills...
Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #41, on April 24th, 2012, 10:53 AM »
I went to have a look at his sci-fi website... Considering I am, myself, a fan of Blade Runner (which I watched countless times), I read his review of the movie... So, Bloc, just so you know... It's Blade Runner, not Bladerunner. Also, a third (!) of your article is devoted to reminding everyone that...
Quote from Bloc
Initially the musical score was made by Vangelis, but was replaced with a more classical score right before the movie was released. Luckily the haunting synth soundscapes of Vangelis was added back in later releases of the movie.
I think it's disappointing to see someone claiming that when they love that movie so much... I suppose it's  a combination of two separate events that got you confused:

1/ The (director's cut's) unicorn scene was allegedly taken from a Legend shoot. Legend is another Ridley Scott movie of that era, where the soundtrack was a classic orchestral piece written by Jerry Goldsmith and released as such in Europe. However in the rest of the world, the soundtrack was replaced by a new version written by Tangerine Dream (who are loosely connected to Vangelis in that they write predominantly progressive synthesizer music). So it's the other way around, but basically similar to your story.

2/ The Blade Runner soundtrack wasn't released until 1992 (IIRC -- I remember I bought what I "thought" was the Blade Runner OST in my teens, and then jumped on the real final sountrack back in '92 when they re-released the movie with the director's cut.) So, before that, there was a soundtrack, but it was re-recorded by a symphonic orchestra and only had a few of the themes (Tears in rain, Rachel's love theme, etc.) Maybe you thought the original Blade Runner theater release had this for a soundtrack -- it isn't the case. It's just that they never cared to release the proper soundtrack, and someone else went ahead and made their 'own' version...

At any rate, Blade Runner, as a movie, has always had the same soundtrack, for the last 30 years, and in every single country.
Just wanted to make it clear...

b4pjoe

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #42, on April 25th, 2012, 02:08 AM »
Well, I guess his site is back up and he has made some of his Premium things (but not all) available. For FREE! So now everyone can enjoy what a few paid for. Better than nothing I suppose. I would like to have access to the downloads for all of them though.

live627

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #43, on April 25th, 2012, 07:58 AM »
Only the updated ones were published.

Arantor

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Re: Bloc Madness
« Reply #44, on April 25th, 2012, 05:21 PM »
I had nothing to do with it; as the logs will show, I didn't visit at all between 22nd April and today. I think it's nice to see that he's re-instated some of the themes, but some of the commentary on sm.org is non too flattering either, like the people who paid and were without any form of access for months, or the fact that they believed they were paying for premium products and access, some of which are now available to everyone.