Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Topic started by: Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM

Title: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Follow up to -- http://wedge.org/pub/6271/logo-madness/msg276613/#msg276613
(Splitting the topic because it evolved into a heated discussion with Bloc.)

Okay... Are you implying you're leaving for now, or leaving forever? I'm quite weary after all of the Bloc stories. (And you know how ridiculous it became after a while.)
*WHAT is it* with saying things like that every time someone challenges your thoughts?

Seriously. Get over it, guys. Pete is harsh, and I'm harsh. If we'd been "outta here" every time Pete or I refuted each other's arguments, I think that Wedge would have been abandoned 20 times over!

If I can't tell people what I think, then should I stop speaking at all??
This isn't what a "forum" is for. A forum is for talking. If you can't talk for fear of driving people into leaving, then you don't use the forum any longer.
If you think I'm too harsh, then say it clearly.

Anyway. Let me explain again, now that I'm on my PC... I settled for 'Consul-tant' even though it had more black letters than 'Wedge-ward'. It may not be obvious, but in my mind, the more black letters, the 'higher' the rank. I gave up on this concept to please you because you complained about the 'Co' thing and I couldn't find myself to go for Con or Cons. And 'Consu' could be seen as 'Consumate' or 'Consumer', which doesn't carry a nice meaning either way. So I went for 'Consul' which is basically an ambassador (for Wedge), and look at you -- getting pissed off because I'm asking you WHY it's STILL not good enough for you.

If you don't like your badge, I can remove it if you want. It's just a matter of putting your Consultant group as Additional instead of Primary group.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:31 AM
Quote from PantsManUK on March 29th, 2012, 10:34 AM
Where's the "PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST PICK ONE ALREADY" option in that poll? :eheh:
:lol:
Nah, seriously, the logo is chosen, it's the one you voted for BTW, although technically I'm free to use any variation on it as the environment requires (e.g. the plain logo doesn't "work" on a dark background, so I have variations for that.)
I even re-did the Facebook page with the new logo (and a cover based on the current banner here), you'll see that tomorrow because I won't switch the page to Timeline myself, they'll have to force me into that (which they'll do... tomorrow. Which is why I added the cover photo. Anyway.)
And then I was looking at the archives, and I thought to myself, oh the old big logo that was in the Wedge sidebar before the switch for so many weeks, it looks really great on the Facebook page... :lol: But well, yeah, I can't have everything, ah ah. The current logo is really the best I've done, after all this time.
Posted: March 29th, 2012, 11:29 AM
Quote from live627 on March 29th, 2012, 10:15 AM
Consult-ant. Does that emphasise a crook?
That does emphasize an ant, by the way... A tiny insect that I'm quick to crush when they're in my house :lol:
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2012, 11:52 AM
Fuss over a badge?!

OK, I can understand why Co/nsultant may not have been ideal, and moreso with con/sultant. But the word is a strange one, there is really no great place to break it up aesthetically and not have some derivable meaning that's not so harsh.

Consult-ant does not imply a crook at all. I have been a consultant in my time and it can pay handsomely - provided that you know your stuff and act with integrity. Like everything else, there are shady consultants and strongly ethical consultants. But it does, as Nao, states, imply 'ant'.

And of course I am haunted by Dogbert's explanation of how the work 'consult' came about. "I like to con people, and I like to insult people, what if I combine them?"

Perhaps the problem isn't the two-tone aspect but the fact that the word is wrong. Would contrib/utor be a better compromise?
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2012, 12:48 PM
It's not only that "con" implies "crook", it's mostly that in French, it directly means "jerk". It's the French word for jerk. I think it has the same roots as 'c*nt' in English. (I'm being nice with the censoring because we're in a public area :P)

What is Dogbert? A spin-off of Dilbert? :P

I like the word Consultant. My girlfriend is a consultant. The 'consulting developer' position was created just for me at SM.org... I like the word, I'd use it for myself if I wasn't 50% of the boss entity :lol:
And I think that if John hadn't liked it a year and a half ago, he would have said it, wouldn't he...?
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on March 29th, 2012, 12:55 PM
Quote from Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Okay... Are you implying you're leaving for now, or leaving forever? I'm quite weary after all of the Bloc stories. (And you know how ridiculous it became after a while.)
I am still here you know, and its not because of your dazzling personality lol - but for the interest in how Wedge will turn out. I am not sure I would describe the way things went regarding myself as "ridiculous", but in the big scope of things it really don't matter.
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*WHAT is it* with saying things like that every time someone challenges your thoughts?

Seriously. Get over it, guys. Pete is harsh, and I'm harsh. If we'd been "outta here" every time Pete or I refuted each other's arguments, I think that Wedge would have been abandoned 20 times over!
No doubt, you are what you are. But theres a difference between you two acknowledging each other as equals, and seeing everyone else as not having a clue.
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If I can't tell people what I think, then should I stop speaking at all??
This isn't what a "forum" is for. A forum is for talking. If you can't talk for fear of driving people into leaving, then you don't use the forum any longer.
True. So I guess the best is to leave the discussion be whenever it goes against your opinions. ;)
/me retreats into lurker mode again
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Norodo on March 29th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Quote from Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Okay... Are you implying you're leaving for now, or leaving forever?
I for one think you're reading too much into his words. I think he merely gave up on this discussion.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2012, 01:34 PM
I did notice he posted in another topic after that yeah.

@bloc> we're not like that. Period. Your decisions are often taken based on your immediate emotional response.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2012, 05:31 PM
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No doubt, you are what you are. But theres a difference between you two acknowledging each other as equals, and seeing everyone else as not having a clue.
I start off assuming people don't have a clue until they prove otherwise, simply because that's a simpler and easier way to view the world, and sadly I keep finding it's all too accurate, given how many people don't even read what's in front of them.
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What is Dogbert? A spin-off of Dilbert?
Dogbert is a regular character in the Dilbert strip, he is a dog, very cynical. Often a 'management consultant' of sorts, or world ruler, amongst other things.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on March 30th, 2012, 02:33 AM
Quote from Norodo on March 29th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Quote from Nao on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Okay... Are you implying you're leaving for now, or leaving forever?
I for one think you're reading too much into his words. I think he merely gave up on this discussion.
this
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 30th, 2012, 08:55 AM
So do you want to keep your badge? (I'm not talking about the group itself of course.)

I'm suddenly wondering if additional groups don't show their badge anyway... Uh maybe that should be a membergroup setting too.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on March 30th, 2012, 09:09 AM
Quote from Nao on March 30th, 2012, 08:55 AM
So do you want to keep your badge? (I'm not talking about the group itself of course.)
I don't hate it enough to not want it.
Quote
I'm suddenly wondering if additional groups don't show their badge anyway... Uh maybe that should be a membergroup setting too.
If you do decide to implement them, it should most definitely be an option.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 30th, 2012, 09:11 AM
I don't understand? Additional groups are a SMF feature..?
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on March 30th, 2012, 09:17 AM
Yes. I wouldn't even be using SMF without them!
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on March 30th, 2012, 11:21 AM
In SMF and Wedge currently, the primary group badge is the only badge shown, and if the primary group does not have a badge, post count badges are shown. No additional groups are shown anywhere outside of the account settings page.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on March 30th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Okay thanks, that's the way I was thinking it worked. (Only a tad more complicated because of the post ranks... :lol:)
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 1st, 2012, 02:14 PM
Quote from Nao on March 29th, 2012, 01:34 PM
@bloc> we're not like that. Period. Your decisions are often taken based on your immediate emotional response.
And..? Its not like you didn't do that yourself lol, I can remember the times when you argued with people on topic after topic with rather laiden emotional responses, banned them on occasions, even added clauses for certain people into the license..if thats not sprung from emotional response I don't know what is.

I've done some turn-around decisons past/this year, but nothing I don't regret. It was things I needed to do, to move on. How people see them I don't really care about.
Quote from Arantor on March 29th, 2012, 05:31 PM
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No doubt, you are what you are. But theres a difference between you two acknowledging each other as equals, and seeing everyone else as not having a clue.
I start off assuming people don't have a clue until they prove otherwise, simply because that's a simpler and easier way to view the world, and sadly I keep finding it's all too accurate, given how many people don't even read what's in front of them.
If it works for you..a rather pessimistic view of things IMHO but its not my place to say.Trust comes from many things, and well, internet is rather untrustworthy place to begin with.

I haven't actually addressed the things that seem to happened on Blocweb regarding you. You do seem to think I was a kind of push for your feelings getting worse..or something to that letter. May that be as it may - I don't know you and how you function in your daily life(nor do any of you about me lol) but the reason I was abrupt with you is that you have this habit of telling people how wrong they are, how your solution is better and how utter bs it is to deny that. Sometimes you are right of course, and sometimes you are just wrong.The important thing is whether people wanted to hear that or not. Arrogance comes to mind, but maybe thats inaccurate.

Now, reading through this small post I realize you will prob. wondering "why does he write again now". And tbh , I don't know lol. Maybe because its april, maybe its because its a snow blizzrd outside. In any case, off my chest and all that.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 1st, 2012, 02:51 PM
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If it works for you..a rather pessimistic view of things IMHO but its not my place to say.Trust comes from many things, and well, internet is rather untrustworthy place to begin with.
I started off believing the best of people but it really doesn't work like that. All that happens is that I end up being let down. Come on, we live in a world where a city has issued an edict to its schools that certain words should be excluded from city-issued tests for fear of offending people. Like 'birthday' should be excluded because it might offend Jehovah's Witnesses. Or 'Halloween' because it might offend pagans.
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but the reason I was abrupt with you is that you have this habit of telling people how wrong they are, how your solution is better and how utter bs it is to deny that.
And you're not doing that right now, of course.[1]

The thing is, you're commenting on what you think I've said, not what I actually said, the two are often subtly different. A lot of what I do, professionally, is figuring out why something is broken for any specific definition of brokenness. It's my job to assess things, figure out how they can be improved. In so doing I offer solutions to those problems, but I don't claim that they are the best solutions to those problems, I assert solely that the solutions I offer up solve the problems at hand, nothing more.

The problem comes in when my view of the problem conflicts with the view others hold of the same problem. In the particular case that we jousted over, regarding mods + themes, your approach does have a certain worthiness to it, by giving themes total control. But I see a problem with that: it basically neuters mods from ever having any real power. It pissed me off no end that your own arrogance appeared to obfuscate that fact in your mind.

Here's the big difference: I am wrong a lot of the time. But I will stand up for what I believe in until someone can actually give me something credible to argue with. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't change my opinion. Explaining why I'm wrong, backing it up with credible arguments, then I'll admit I'm wrong. It does happen, probably more than you'd think, but it requires a certain willingness to play devil's advocate and to see the views that others have, rather than following your own too much.
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Arrogance comes to mind, but maybe thats inaccurate.
It is, but it isn't. I come across as arrogant, but that's not my intention. I raised the points I did because this is something I've had to actively work with, something I've actively had to solve, and I wanted to share the benefits of what I learned. Mistakes I made, and so on, things I discovered along the way. And that does come with an air of 'this is how it is'. If you don't want the benefit of that experience, fine, but don't shoot me down for wanting to share that experience, especially if it happens to disagree with you.

I have another example of that at present, specifically regarding the plans for hooks that SMF has going forward, or at least did several months ago. I pointed out the problems that I had encountered in following the same path that they were on, explained the problems that they'd encounter if they pursued that specific path. It wasn't 'wanted', and it certainly conflicted with their plans, but I did what I felt I had to do: share the mistakes I made with them. I don't know if they plan to follow the same path or what they plan to change going forward, but as long as what I've said has been taken into account even in some small fashion, it was worth the time. In your case, though, your own arrogance and sense of self-righteousness means you can't actually listen to anyone who wants to offer you that experience, so I left you to make your own mistakes, rather than save the time of learning from those who already made them.

Still, your contributions, indirectly, to Wedge have been appreciated, all your talk about how themes must have the last word, it all translated into a very flexible structure system for adding content in. We listened to the things you had to say, and acted on them. They may not have been quite what you wanted, but we did factor it in as best we could, so that themes and plugins can co-exist pretty well, which satisfies our design goal, and should leave as much flexibility as possible with themes.

I have to say, I find it a touch ironic that you act exactly how the rest of the SMF community leaders work, especially given how you said you didn't like their attitude. You refuse to take on board what everyone else is saying and go with what you feel is right, and act with arrogance towards people who don't agree.

We may appear to act like that, but we actually don't. Hands up who remembers Clara Listensprechen? How she stormed in here demanding threaded replies and going off on one calling me a misogynist when I refused to bow to her demands? You'd probably consider that an example of that exact behaviour. Except that we did spend a lot of time discussing it after the event, when we could approach it rationally and practically and consider the implications. We went away, having listened to the comments, and considered the implications. The consequence is that we'd like to do it if we could figure out an efficient way to do it in an RDBMS that implicitly works in almost-3NF.
Posted: April 1st, 2012, 02:47 PM

Essentially this comes down to integrity. When all is said and done, I don't find any reason to quetion mine. I can't say the same about you, for example, like closing your site abruptly without telling paying customers what was going on. You want to call me out, telling me to get my house in order? You might want to get your own in order first.
 1. Man, I thought it was just the English that excelled at passive-aggressive attitudes.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: godboko71 on April 1st, 2012, 10:50 PM
You guys are funny. My SO and her dad could not get along either, they where to much alike. I know your both very different however you are similar in some personality traits.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2012, 12:00 PM
Oh, I see Bloc is working again on ViennaBBS?
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: PantsManUK on April 2nd, 2012, 02:40 PM
Quote from Bloc on April 1st, 2012, 02:14 PM
If it works for you..a rather pessimistic view of things IMHO but its not my place to say.Trust comes from many things, and well, internet is rather untrustworthy place to begin with.
As someone who nominally works in a computer support role, it's often *far* quicker and easier to assume that the person you are speaking to barely knows how a mouse works, and work up from there. You offend far fewer people by starting from lowest common principle...
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2012, 05:00 PM
Quote from Arantor on April 2nd, 2012, 12:00 PM
Oh, I see Bloc is working again on ViennaBBS?
Lol, Bloc you're a real weathercock :)

Well, at least you got a decent logo in a shorter time than it took me... Although it probably wasn't as fun to do eh? :lol:
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 2nd, 2012, 06:27 PM
Weathercock? Is that what i think it is..going after what everyone else is doing? Err, wrong. I see someone at SMF site also comments that, that I turn like the wind..or something like that. You got it all wrong of course, again. I have never been in this game to suit other people, although working with themes and TP over 5-6 years made me do that anyway...sadly. I return to things because I want to try other angles, because I rather scrap something that isn't exactly how I want it, than spend a long time fixing something that was going wrong from the beginning. TP came to that point a good while back.

Themes for SMF, especially paid ones, have been more of a chore for a long time than fun, always seeking that revenue aspect...so one day(after several months of contemplating it of course, for those that could read, rather apparant from my several forum/blog posts about the future of Bocweb, about SMF themes, about SMF in general) I decided: enough is enough.

Do I owe someone to tell them I no longer want to work with themes? And for the paid stuff etc...is that your business anyway? No, it isn't. Again I don't care what you think of it, so theres no reason to use that argument anymore. ;)

I am only doing what I do for my own interest, finally. Its as simple as that. Then I don't care what others think of me closing sites if what I work with isn't satisfying for myself. I am not "calling you out" or make you "clean your house", Arantor, I could care less..but you tipped a point back then where you constantly used Wedge as the example for whatever we discussed. I WANT to make my own mistakes..! I don't need someone to pinpoint them - if I do I'll simply ask.

ViennaBBS yes. It was never abandoned, never left alone(for too long) either and def. not something I need to listen to other people what it should be lol. Its my own playground, and time will tell if its use of others too, but that isn't a pri.

I used a lot of time on the logo, Nao, not doing the Google way of asking people, than adjusting, ask again and adjust again lol..but several suggestions went in. I left it alone for some time, came back and saw something better. If you like to use 50+ pages on a logo, thats your call(and fun it seems)...maybe it was what was needed for Wedge. Me, I like to use only my screen and my imagination. Sometimes its bullseye, other times its never going to be good. I guess that approach sums me up too.

Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2012, 06:42 PM
Quote
Weathercock? Is that what i think it is..going after what everyone else is doing?
No, it means you change your direction as fast as the winds change, like a weathervane. Doing any sizeable project requires investment of time, and someone who is that changeable is probably not going to stay the distance.
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Do I owe someone to tell them I no longer want to work with themes? And for the paid stuff etc...is that your business anyway? No, it isn't. Again I don't care what you think of it, so theres no reason to use that argument anymore.
Given that I was at one point a paying customer, yes, I do think it is a little of my business. But really what I was getting at - and that you seemed to ignore because it was convenient to you - is that you're quite happy to call me out on the faults of mine that you perceive but that you apparently can't take it when I do the same.

If you take someone's money, I do think you owe them some kind of explanation. But really there's a bigger thing here: you're essentially setting the precedent that ViennaBBS will never be suitable for anyone other than yourself, because you just cannot be relied upon to actually develop it or make it available, not even when people pay for it. If you're happy with that being the case and you're happy with the fact that people consider you essentially unreliable, go nuts.
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but you tipped a point back then where you constantly used Wedge as the example for whatever we discussed.
And if you notice, I relented somewhat on that, because you suggested I should. Though it's still a case of 'these are the problems, this is how we solved them', which is exactly what I said it was. It is not a claim to be the definitive solution.
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Me, I like to use only my screen and my imagination. Sometimes its bullseye, other times its never going to be good. I guess that approach sums me up too.
That is the truest thing you've said here yet: what amounts to 'I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks because I'm not going to listen to them even if they have something useful to say, because it's my life, what I say goes' etc. You sound like a teenager wanting to be treated like an adult.

Have fun with ViennaBBS. Hopefully you won't spend the hours and hours fighting with the same problems we did, oh wait, you won't because you're not building something that anyone but you can, will or want to use anyway. But if you're happy with doing that, building something that cannot ever be used by anyone but you, great. Enjoy it. But don't come here, preaching about how we should do things, when they're not how you do things.

Notice one thing: I left you alone. I got to the point where I realised I was wasting my time suggesting anything to you, and so I disappeared and left you alone. Now I see you here acting exactly how you're accusing me of acting. Please, do me a favour, and fuck off. I don't need or want your pretentiousness around here, and frankly I'm fed up of reading your patronising attitude.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2012, 10:25 PM
Everything Pete said.

Oh, and yes, this topic has been an absolute joy for me to play with. I actually miss the process of choosing a logo but I know the current one is a perfect fit. I'll probably fin something else to ask the community's opinion on. One day ;)
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 6th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Oh yes, I am unreliable as hell, so don't anyone ever expect something from me again lol. And you know what - I am quite happy with things as they are now, I don't need the attention to know I am happy with what I create. Teenager? Thanks! :) Given that I been said to be a bit "oldie" going  45 that was refreshing. Maybe there's hope for me still. ;D

But I am sorry, I am not "f''effing off, I tried that before, remember? Removing my account here never worked, since you never approved it. May I have the pleasure this time perhaps then? ;)

Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 6th, 2012, 04:10 PM
So we delete your account, then what? You create a new one in the future? Do you really have that little self control that you can't just... not visit?[1]

Oh, and calling you a teenager is not really a compliment. At 45, you should have seen enough life to know better. I mean, you're old enough to be my father, I shouldn't have to explain how not to be a jackass to you.
 1. I manage it with sm.org these days just fine, since I no longer feel enough pity for the people who need help over there to actually post anything. I just stay away.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 6th, 2012, 06:06 PM
-sigh-
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 7th, 2012, 03:17 PM
I guess irony is a new concept? But amateur psychoanalysis is apparently not unfamiliar, as the altest retorts from you have shown. I may seem an ass when I do things people don't like - but at least i am honest about it. Besides..why is the fact if I offer ViennaBBS or not, or even work on it important to you anyway? Could it be that's what you been doing all along? Going into every OTHER fork project , offering "advice" while praising how good Wedge is? Not to mention all the remarks on this site about how utterly bad SMF is. The arrogance is amazing..

Staying away I can do, but its just too much fun working you up (that was irony again btw.) ..nah, its  getting a bit sour to even do that, you got no humour left it seems. Using 67 pages on a logo might do that to you lol. :)

Bloc is all out(for this time) So long. ;)
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 7th, 2012, 03:39 PM
If you're going to argue with me, get your facts straight. I have not joined the forum of any other fork, I was already a member of BlocWeb before that. I'd argue the other points regarding offering advice but I already explained that and it still falls into the fact that you're still too far up your own arse to see what I was getting at. A lot of my criticism of SMF is actually at the fact that too many people consider it "good enough" without stopping to see if it can be improved at all.

As for you distributing ViennaBBS, why is it my business? Well, apart from that fact you do still have good ideas, and competition causes everyone to stay on their toes, I have to consider the strong likelihood that people will use it, you'll abandon it and it'll be SMF, Wedge and others that will have to clear up your mess.
Title: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 7th, 2012, 04:12 PM
It has been said that I've been "brutal" to Bloc, even though I only wrote 3 lines in total on the last page. I figured I might as well post this longer message if, whatever I say, I'm seen as 'brutal'...

As for myself, I only ever joined another fork's forum -- EosAlpha -- and only posted to praise it. Of course, the fact that I have a link to Wedge in my signature can be seen as a shameful attempt to bring in more users, but that'd be preposterous -- Nightwish doesn't do anything to get people to have a look at his fork, and instead we at Wedge have been doing most of his marketing, offering it as a 'realistic' alternative to Wedge.
Mind you, we'd have done the same for ViennaBBS if we'd had any reason to believe it was going to be a reality. But the only thing that you released for ViennaBBS, is your logo (and even then, it's only on your blog, not on your official website...)

Yes, it took me 62 pages to find the perfect logo (reply #921) -- but unlike you, I have absolutely zero design skills, and I'm working hard to find it in me to do something inspiring. The fact that I made all of the skins available at wedge.org, all of the logos, all of the design concepts, is proof enough that I'm willing to work hard to overcome my weaknesses. It'd be much easier for me to just focus on things I can easily do (JavaScript and PHP) and just let Wedge look like another clone of SMF.

So that's what I did. In the meantime, all we got from you on the subject of ViennaBBS is wind. How many times did you declare on your blog that you never really planned to make a fork? That ViennaBBS was just a 'toy' for you to play with? Just like your themes. You remove them at will, regardless of what your paying users might have to say. (I may have stopped work on Aeva Media nearly two years ago -- but I issued security updates and left it online for everyone to enjoy. Because it's THAT easy to do, and THAT important if you have any respect for your users who, let's just say it clearly, also make you what you are.)

So, yes, apologies are in order. Keep working on ViennaBBS. Pete only wanted you to realize you were wasting your time (and your users') because no one will ever use some forum software that looks good and can disappear overnight because the developer decided he wasn't in the mood. But who are we to say. Enjoy your waste of time. In a few years' time, users will be running SMF, Eos and Wedge. And they'll have no idea what Vienna looks like, because they 'never went there'. I'm talking about the city, of course, because they'll never have heard of ViennaBBS *at all*.
Title: Re: Re : Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 8th, 2012, 01:31 PM
Quote from Arantor on April 7th, 2012, 03:39 PM
If you're going to argue with me, get your facts straight. I have not joined the forum of any other fork, I was already a member of BlocWeb before that. I'd argue the other points regarding offering advice but I already explained that and it still falls into the fact that you're still too far up your own arse to see what I was getting at. A lot of my criticism of SMF is actually at the fact that too many people consider it "good enough" without stopping to see if it can be improved at all.

As for you distributing ViennaBBS, why is it my business? Well, apart from that fact you do still have good ideas, and competition causes everyone to stay on their toes, I have to consider the strong likelihood that people will use it, you'll abandon it and it'll be SMF, Wedge and others that will have to clear up your mess.
Oh I seem to remember a few sites at least, where you heated up and left,the most recent(If I am correct) was Dzinerstudio. But there was also SMF at one time, well, the now insignificant blocweb..and maybe others. But hey, unlike you I won't analyze that and say something idiotic about a person i don't know, so I can see there was perhaps other reasons that what was apparent right there and then and leave it with that. I have already described what it did look like for me - but you already stated it wasn't exactly what happened. There's not anything to say then really.

"Clearing up my mess"..lol, that was fun argument though. In what way, exactly? Do you make themes all of the sudden..? You do know I've sticked with SMF themes and TinyPortal since 2003, right? I don't have to explain myself really..but I'll do it anyway: when i closed off my site the first time, it was out of lack of interest from users + the amount of work I put in the paying themes felt a bit wasted. The few that subscribed were welcome of course - but it was a dwindling entity. I really wanted to just make the premium themes all free at that point. The final time I closed AND this time removed the themes even, there were only a handful of people even visiting BW. After some personal issues(again, that thing that you don't care to look behind the scenes, you just "conclude" comes to mind) I decided to stop right there and then.Brutal, yes.

I am not making any excuses for it. Teeanger stuff, heh, you can talk lol. At 45 I've learned that in THIS world its the important things that is worth sticking too. Sadly SMF themes isn't that for me any longer. it was at one time, but things like family, health, steady job and happiness(yes, its cheesy, but its also true) takes precedence.
Quote from Nao on April 7th, 2012, 04:12 PM
It has been said that I've been "brutal" to Bloc, even though I only wrote 3 lines in total on the last page. I figured I might as well post this longer message if, whatever I say, I'm seen as 'brutal'...

As for myself, I only ever joined another fork's forum -- EosAlpha -- and only posted to praise it. Of course, the fact that I have a link to Wedge in my signature can be seen as a shameful attempt to bring in more users, but that'd be preposterous -- Nightwish doesn't do anything to get people to have a look at his fork, and instead we at Wedge have been doing most of his marketing, offering it as a 'realistic' alternative to Wedge.
Mind you, we'd have done the same for ViennaBBS if we'd had any reason to believe it was going to be a reality. But the only thing that you released for ViennaBBS, is your logo (and even then, it's only on your blog, not on your official website...)

Yes, it took me 62 pages to find the perfect logo (reply #921) -- but unlike you, I have absolutely zero design skills, and I'm working hard to find it in me to do something inspiring. The fact that I made all of the skins available at wedge.org, all of the logos, all of the design concepts, is proof enough that I'm willing to work hard to overcome my weaknesses. It'd be much easier for me to just focus on things I can easily do (JavaScript and PHP) and just let Wedge look like another clone of SMF.

So that's what I did. In the meantime, all we got from you on the subject of ViennaBBS is wind. How many times did you declare on your blog that you never really planned to make a fork? That ViennaBBS was just a 'toy' for you to play with? Just like your themes. You remove them at will, regardless of what your paying users might have to say. (I may have stopped work on Aeva Media nearly two years ago -- but I issued security updates and left it online for everyone to enjoy. Because it's THAT easy to do, and THAT important if you have any respect for your users who, let's just say it clearly, also make you what you are.)

So, yes, apologies are in order. Keep working on ViennaBBS. Pete only wanted you to realize you were wasting your time (and your users') because no one will ever use some forum software that looks good and can disappear overnight because the developer decided he wasn't in the mood. But who are we to say. Enjoy your waste of time. In a few years' time, users will be running SMF, Eos and Wedge. And they'll have no idea what Vienna looks like, because they 'never went there'. I'm talking about the city, of course, because they'll never have heard of ViennaBBS *at all*.
Nao, you may ridicule as much as you like. I am not sure I can call myself an proper artist..but the point is: if I don't get a opinion from others about my work, that won't stop me from working on it. It may not be the next SMF, not even something along TP..but at least it will be something *I* feel good at working on. So yeah, I stick to my own things. Maybe they are of interest to others too in the future, thats an added bonus, but the main thing is that I can work with it and get it like I want, not being told by others along the way. And I do listen to people I respect, very much so - but I have no patience for know-it-all'ers. Thats where that "emotional" flaw comes in...hey, I am only human lol.

But seriously, thats was how I created TP on my own, more or less, doing the mistakes, learning things bit by bit..the TP team helped a lot too but I think they saw that angle and gave me the freedom. Thats also how I worked when I was at the SMF team, being the only one working on the graphic design for Curve(and Core btw) before collaborating on the bigger amount of code work for it.I had a lot of respect for several devs at that time, because they allowed me that room. And finally, thats how I work with themes too, trying new things no others did, sometimes its just right, but not always, you learn from it.Stop doing something just because a person or two says its "rubbish" isn't enough. Rebellious? Stubborn? surely. My nagging about more innovation,about using peoples skills rather than using who screams the loudest, those things come from that point of view.

So pardon me for jumping to a conclusion in a former post of mine: THIS is me, the "hit and miss" part was a bit inaccurate.And thats the only apology you will get I am afraid.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 8th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Fair enough. But no patience for know-it-alls? I don't think so, considering how many times you derided the fact that it took me 62 pages of discussions with users to reach a consensus on the logo. That should have earned your respect if I'm to understand what you're saying...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 8th, 2012, 02:15 PM
Quote
Oh I seem to remember a few sites at least, where you heated up and left,the most recent(If I am correct) was Dzinerstudio.
Read the full debate. I was actually asked to leave by one member in public, asked by another (non admin) member in private. So after it came to a head, I left. Same as what happened with sm.org, I was actually asked by a team member (who, as I now understand is a team leader) to leave because it brings drama. Newsflash: people who are passionate about what they do, they care about it, and that creates drama because they care.
Quote
"Clearing up my mess"..lol, that was fun argument though. In what way, exactly? Do you make themes all of the sudden..?
No, but ViennaBBS is more than a theme, right? It's a fork, which means if people use it, it's not just their theme they have to replace if you get fed up with it, it's the entire platform, including vulnerabilities and everything else. Which means when you abandon it, people will have to uproot and move to other platforms, including having adequate converters.

Or it is just a theme that people can move to or from with little real hassle? In which case, go nuts, because when you inevitably distribute it and withdraw it due to boredom, people only have to find new themes, rather than move platforms.
Quote
After some personal issues(again, that thing that you don't care to look behind the scenes, you just "conclude" comes to mind) I decided to stop right there and then.Brutal, yes.
Oh, I'm aware of your recent illness. It's just that if you take money from people for something you produce, withdrawing it at no notice and no explanation is beyond unprofessional and it's why I conclude you're unreliable and bordering even on untrustworthy. Brutal, yes. Even when I withdrew the things that I did, I gave a lot of notice to people, I discussed it with those who'd paid for support, and when it closed it was not a surprise. Even then for months after there was an explanation posted in place of arantormods.com.

This is the thing that people seem to forget: I don't know much about you other than what you present online. I've seen the years you put into SMF and TinyPortal and felt pretty strongly about respecting you and the effort you've put in. But the last year or so, you've dithered and disrespected people that looked up to you. What, then, am I supposed to think?
Quote
Sadly SMF themes isn't that for me any longer. it was at one time, but things like family, health, steady job and happiness(yes, its cheesy, but its also true) takes precedence.
Oh, believe me when I say I understand about these things, having recently separated from my partner and having to adapt everything in my life around that face. And while I understand that health and happiness are important (and it was to preserve those in my life I closed arantormods.com), doing so by essentially disrespecting people is not really the way to go. But if you're happy insulting people who respected you, carry on, I mean that's what you're doing here - even after all this crap, I still have respect for your skills, which is why - incidentally - the last skin I made for Wedge was heavily inspired by one of your themes for SMF.
Quote
So yeah, I stick to my own things. Maybe they are of interest to others too in the future, thats an added bonus, but the main thing is that I can work with it and get it like I want, not being told by others along the way. And I do listen to people I respect, very much so - but I have no patience for know-it-all'ers. Thats where that "emotional" flaw comes in...hey, I am only human lol.
There's a mutual incompatibility there: if you're building it for yourself, other people are not going to respect that. They'll want it for themselves and expect you to provide it for them. And if you distribute ViennaBBS as a fork, you will end up facing this incompatibility. This isn't me being a 'know it all', it's looking back at everything you've done - your work with SMF, your work with TP and BlocWeb, time and again you put the effort in and expect to hand it off later or it disappears into nothingness.

The same incompatibility is faced by Wedge, and SMF, and each of them have dealt with it differently. And that's interesting to note how they've independently reviewed the circumstances and come to different conclusions about how they've dealt with it, but I daren't go into what each has done, lest you think I'm somehow saying one is better than the other. Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages, and one is ultimately more community-centric compared to the other's much more cynical take on it.
Quote
Stop doing something just because a person or two says its "rubbish" isn't enough. Rebellious? Stubborn? surely. My nagging about more innovation,about using peoples skills rather than using who screams the loudest, those things come from that point of view.
Loudness is relative. People who know the field should be considered more loudly than those who are new to the environment - but both should be listened to. And we do listen to both veterans and regulars. Most of the relative loudness is because the people who've been there and seen it and done it, they've encountered the problems and found solutions. We listened to the problems you raised about how themes don't have so much power, and we took measures to try and solve them, our approach isn't the best out there, but it represents what we consider to be the best compromise between everything, and naturally we want to share those details in case it helps others.

That's the thing, the 'know it all' attitude that I've displayed is actually a reasonably unselfish attitude, it's wanting to provide what I learned so that you can make something better from what I learned. I'm sorry that interfered with your pride, and there is a certain wisdom in making your own mistakes, but consider the alternative: if everyone stopped to make their own mistakes every time, we'd never get anything done because we'd always be continuously reinventing the wheel.

It was out of respect that I wanted to share that information with you, to help you shape things to solve all the issues that had to be solved, not out of some misplaced superiority complex. And the way you reacted, it might as well have been a request to leave, because you made it clear you weren't interested in what I had to say, so if you aren't going to listen to what I am going to say, what is the point of my staying?

Now here's the thing, you're making it clear that you're not going to listen to us, yet you're hanging around here, preaching about how things should be? Do you really have that little happiness in your life, that you claim to want so much, that you have to criticise me for my failings while displaying the exact same behaviour yourself, in some attempt to score some points?

I hope that you're enjoying this, I really do, because the more you continue down this route, the more you reveal how shallow you really are, and how little you really respect those who looked up to you.
Quote from Nao on April 8th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Fair enough. But no patience for know-it-alls? I don't think so, considering how many times you derided the fact that it took me 62 pages of discussions with users to reach a consensus on the logo. That should have earned your respect if I'm to understand what you're saying...
Except for the blatant hypocrisy in Bloc's rantings? He's calling me out for certain behaviours and carrying each of them out himself, in a textbook case of double standards.

If anything it sounds like he's lashing out to compensate for his own failings. You know, the same way it is the bullied that become the bullies.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Bloc on April 19th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Arantor, you are just annoyed that I didn't take your advice, and your reasoning isn't something I agreed on, especially around the mods/themes dilemma. You are very good at doing long and elaborate arguments about *anything* in a fashion that makes it seem you have all the answers - which of course you don't. I am no amtch for you there, thoigh I did try lol. But trying yet again the amateur psychology approach just shows how quick you are to conclusions.I blame it on the age. ;D

Nao, you are a rebel, with the bads and sometimes good that entails, your history around SMF has shown that as much. Well, knowing that I can't really be annoyed at whatever you sling my way, its most times in a sarcastic coat anyway. 

I guess its futile to reason anymore with you now, so I'll put it to rest now(not that anyone else really cares lol, the lack of response from others in this (split) topic probably is a sign of that) So, over - and out.

(I can't close this topic, but I could that would be my next action: *closing topic* )
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 19th, 2012, 03:20 PM
No, I'm not annoyed that you didn't take my advice. I'm annoyed that you didn't even listen to it, since there is a big difference. You can disagree with what someone is saying and even do exactly what I was advising against but you could have given me some sign that you'd at least read what I'd said and taken it into account. Except that you don't do that.
Quote
You are very good at doing long and elaborate arguments about *anything* in a fashion that makes it seem you have all the answers - which of course you don't.
And if you actually read those arguments, you'd see where I even acknowledge where I don't have the answers. I also actively encourage people to dispute my assertions and I will tackle them on the merits or flaws of the individual arguments. I don't know all the answers, but I've done enough that I have a pretty good idea. The difference is though, I'm also willing to entertain discussion on where I will be wrong.

I still find your hypocrisy incredible, because everything you accuse me of, you've done it on a far larger scale than I have. You want to point out my flaws, you should look at your own first.
Quote
But trying yet again the amateur psychology approach just shows how quick you are to conclusions.I blame it on the age.
I base my conclusions on the evidence provided. You want to act like a spoilt brat who thinks you are best, carry right on, since that's how you're acting based on all the available evidence. I'm not drawing any conclusions, I'm just calling it as I see it. (Though, I won't deny, the time I spent studying counselling some years ago has helped me figure out just how batshit crazy you actually are.)
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 19th, 2012, 04:19 PM
Don't even bother with him, Pete... Bloc just amounts to a troll by now. :(
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: b4pjoe on April 20th, 2012, 05:04 AM
I'd like to just say one thing about Bloc closing his site unexpectedly to paying members. That was a low blow Bloc. I paid for a one year subscription last September to have access to ALL paid themes for one year. If you wanted to quit, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with you closing your site with no warning and not giving people ample time to download the themes they have paid for. You should have set a site up where the themes were available to every paid member until their subscription expires. You don't have to support them. You don't have to make new ones. But you should make them available to people that paid you with their hard earned money. Or refund their subscriptions based upon the amount of time they used their subscription until you pulled the rug out from under them. I feel like you picked my pocket while I wasn't looking.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 20th, 2012, 07:50 AM
+1.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on April 20th, 2012, 08:30 AM
All subscribers from blocweb.net are now at a loss, out some dollars (from 40 to 70 IIRC), and are angry at what basically amounts to fraud, or the denial of paid services and/or goods.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on April 24th, 2012, 01:23 AM
Bloc, I can see your theme site is back up (http://www.blocweb.net/index.php?action=bwgallery).

Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 24th, 2012, 08:32 AM
Apparently, his account here was removed... Was it you, Pete?
Or did something happen? :P

Anyway...

Bloc's site? I don't think he planned 'anything'... He think he was just bored one day and built that. In a few weeks time he'll be bored again and so he'll remove his site for another few months...

Seriously, I have no idea how his, err, users, can still post nice messages about him over there, right after he re-opened his site after closing it for months... ::)

Nice design though. But what less can we expect of the Bloc? I've always considered him better than me in terms of pure design (and JUST that :P). I'm more interested in knowing when he'll start working on his people skills...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on April 24th, 2012, 10:53 AM
I went to have a look at his sci-fi website... Considering I am, myself, a fan of Blade Runner (which I watched countless times), I read his review of the movie... So, Bloc, just so you know... It's Blade Runner, not Bladerunner. Also, a third (!) of your article is devoted to reminding everyone that...
Quote from Bloc
Initially the musical score was made by Vangelis, but was replaced with a more classical score right before the movie was released. Luckily the haunting synth soundscapes of Vangelis was added back in later releases of the movie.
I think it's disappointing to see someone claiming that when they love that movie so much... I suppose it's  a combination of two separate events that got you confused:

1/ The (director's cut's) unicorn scene was allegedly taken from a Legend shoot. Legend is another Ridley Scott movie of that era, where the soundtrack was a classic orchestral piece written by Jerry Goldsmith and released as such in Europe. However in the rest of the world, the soundtrack was replaced by a new version written by Tangerine Dream (who are loosely connected to Vangelis in that they write predominantly progressive synthesizer music). So it's the other way around, but basically similar to your story.

2/ The Blade Runner soundtrack wasn't released until 1992 (IIRC -- I remember I bought what I "thought" was the Blade Runner OST in my teens, and then jumped on the real final sountrack back in '92 when they re-released the movie with the director's cut.) So, before that, there was a soundtrack, but it was re-recorded by a symphonic orchestra and only had a few of the themes (Tears in rain, Rachel's love theme, etc.) Maybe you thought the original Blade Runner theater release had this for a soundtrack -- it isn't the case. It's just that they never cared to release the proper soundtrack, and someone else went ahead and made their 'own' version...

At any rate, Blade Runner, as a movie, has always had the same soundtrack, for the last 30 years, and in every single country.
Just wanted to make it clear...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: b4pjoe on April 25th, 2012, 02:08 AM
Well, I guess his site is back up and he has made some of his Premium things (but not all) available. For FREE! So now everyone can enjoy what a few paid for. Better than nothing I suppose. I would like to have access to the downloads for all of them though.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on April 25th, 2012, 07:58 AM
Only the updated ones were published.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on April 25th, 2012, 05:21 PM
I had nothing to do with it; as the logs will show, I didn't visit at all between 22nd April and today. I think it's nice to see that he's re-instated some of the themes, but some of the commentary on sm.org is non too flattering either, like the people who paid and were without any form of access for months, or the fact that they believed they were paying for premium products and access, some of which are now available to everyone.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 30th, 2012, 09:44 AM
So, bloc has once again changed his mind after stopping Viennabbs and restarting it a couple of times...

http://www.blocweb.net/?topic=50.0

He wants to strip SMF down to nothing and do a v3.0 that he'd call v0.8... Or whatever it means ;)

Tag-based systems aren't exactly new. Take Vanilla for instance...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: live627 on July 30th, 2012, 10:05 AM
So he's dumping VBBS on Deejay?
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Whatever, it's just yet more going round and round and round from him. Waste of time if you ask me.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 30th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Why would he dump ViennaBBS on Deejay...? He has only two posts over at that forum.

Pete, it's indeed a waste of time, but with some pop-corn it's still enjoyable :P

Oh, BTW, a similar WTF topic:
http://www.viennabbs.org/index.php?topic=42.0

Bloc:
"Wedge (...) has 2 devs so utterly sure they can do everything better themselves that I left in a - sadly - agitated state."

We never said that, of course. But if he thinks it, it must be the truth...

"Wedge is..well, not sure where its going now, maybe as a more of a SMF tweakers choice? Certainly not a themers choice lol, its gotten way too code-centric already. They want to improve things all over, good, but theres nthing new there really, just rewrites..IMHO anyway, others may disagree of course."

A tweaker's choice, I guess that would be either ViennaBBS or EosAlpha, since Wedge ditched compatibility with SMF from day one...!
Code-centric, I've never seen such a bad analysis. Wedge is WAY better than SMF and ViennaBBS when it comes to theming. It gives so much freedom to themers, it's even quite amusing that Bloc would actually criticize Wedge for its theming just because it doesn't do theming the way he likes... (Even though he seems to have taken cues from us in his latest works, according to his blocweb posts -- see doing inherited styles instead of replacement styles.)

Nothing new? We have an entire board full of topics describing the new features... And that's only up to rev 700+, i.e. over a year ago! We added dozens more features in the meantime...

And Xarcell, obviously a very well informed user... (One of the many who posted here asking for some stuff, and then leaving when we refused...)

"Wedge is crap in my opinion. Yes it may have a better more efficient engine, but the car as a whole blows."

Yeah, sure! It blows way past SMF :lol:
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 06:55 PM
*shrug* I've got enough things going on without worrying about these people who dislike our attitude but criticise because of it, not because of they've actually tried the software.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 30th, 2012, 07:01 PM
Yeah...

I actually tried registering earlier to respond, and it sent a confirmation e-mail to a dummy address so I didn't bother to re-register under another name... It's not worth it anyway.

I can't help but think that half of ViennaBBS's "original features" are 'inspired' by my work on Wedge... Probably not, but considering how he dislikes my theming capabilities, it's always funny to see his new themes are closer in spirit to Wedge than SMF...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 07:18 PM
It makes me wonder how much of the attitude is just jealousy. I don't know, I don't really care, don't know why I'm wasting any energy on worrying about what they think.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 30th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Here, chill out!
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 07:42 PM
That's the thing, every single time I begin to get my mojo back together, a clusterfuck of BS comes along and reminds me why sometimes it's not worth the effort, you know? Makes it very hard to remain motivated, especially when there are arrogant folks with heads so far up their own arses bitching about things they don't understand.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 30th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Oh... Don't tell me Bloc has any influence left on you! :^^;:
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 07:53 PM
It's not Bloc per se, it's the attitude that goes with him, like a dog farting in the night - it wafts and permeates and you don't know where it came from but it smells awful.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Dragooon on July 30th, 2012, 07:56 PM
Most of their comments are pure speculation based on what they partially read (since I'm pretty sure they haven't fully read everything), I don't think they have access to Wedge's code? Bloc was never a consultant, was he? They are merely judging the book by it's torn up cover, so I'd not take their comments seriously.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 30th, 2012, 08:06 PM
Bloc did up until a while ago but as far as I know he never used it, so most of his bile is based on what he's read, not what he's actually used. Xarcell has never had access and mostly takes umbridge about my attitude. Like the comment that he wants the 'old' Arantor back(http://www.simpledesk.net/community/index.php?topic=1244.0).
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on July 30th, 2012, 08:49 PM
I can't explain why people waste time  criticizing the work of other people even if they know nothing of it (Xarcell's quote is paradigmatic :o).
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: godboko71 on July 30th, 2012, 11:11 PM
Poor kid must wake up with pee in his cereal every day. *Yawn* not worth watching
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on July 31st, 2012, 07:37 PM
And either he reads here, or someone told him about it as apparently he's made reference to it on the main ViennaBBS site...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on July 31st, 2012, 09:28 PM
- Bloc had read access to the SVN, but I'm not sure he ever tested it.

- His post on viennabbs basically says that he's giving up on ViennaBBS ('again?'), and focusing on SMF. His comment on Wedge is, I'm afraid, here to stay... It has to be said, though, that he made a similar post on blocweb and it's more acceptable/understandable.

(Hey Pete! 11k posts! Congrats!)
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: markham on August 1st, 2012, 12:12 PM
Frankly guys, who cares about his opinion anyway? If Bloc has given up on VBBS then great, one less competitor. I'm certainly not swayed by his boorish remarks and criticisms when he has probably about the same level of knowledge of the code as I do! He obviously doesn't have the stamina and enthusiasm to see a big project through.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Norodo on August 1st, 2012, 01:44 PM
Quote from markham on August 1st, 2012, 12:12 PM
great, one less competitor.
I fail to see how this could in any way be great.

I don't care about his opinion anyway, but competitors are always good.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2012, 02:22 PM
Sure, competition is good. But I don't really care about competition. I completely respect EosAlpha and SMF 2.1 developers, but I don't have any plans to look into them, or to let them influence Wedge. (Which is why I'm not installing them.)

Although I never expected much out of ViennaBBS... I always felt that it was basically "SMF, with a modern theme and a few ideas taken from the Wedge to-do list."

Bloc has a good knowledge of the SMF codebase overall -- don't forget that he's behind Core and Curve, among others... (I'm not sure about Babylon? He made Themis for sure, too. I always liked that theme back in the day... But I think my favorite overall is still Babylon.)

But, well, what you gonna do about that... Guess what, he closed the ViennaBBS website down. Again. So, one can't read that particular blog post anymore, lol. Now it's redirecting without warning to Blocweb, where he replaced his latest theme with Carbonate, which I find uninspired compared to his other recent works. I wouldn't even bother to mention that, but it really strikes me as odd that he'd replace a good-looking theme with an inferior one. (Seriously... Trebuchet MS all over the place?! It's so 2010, especially in that font size and weight...)
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2012, 02:50 PM
Oh, competition is always good, but the sad part is, this is exactly what I expected to happen - and it wouldn't have made any difference whether we'd commented on it or not here. You only have to go back over time to see what he's done to realise that he's as up/down as ever.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2012, 03:59 PM
It's just a matter of how much you're willing to bet on the day ViennaBBS will come back (probably with a new theme, or name, or concept, or whatever). And whether or not it'll stay online for more than 2 months.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2012, 04:02 PM
:lol: I'm not nearly stupid enough to take that bet.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: nend on August 1st, 2012, 06:50 PM
I don't know about 2.1, development is going ok but it is just mainly a reworked 2.0.x IMHO. I wished it could of became more but it doesn't look like it.

I wished though curve could of been put to rest but it is just being reworked into a more efficient system. There is one person who shall be nameless that fought for curves survival in 2.1, not saying any names. :whistle:

I would also like to commit more but git is just a pain and maybe that is the reason I haven't put much input into it. I rather use a SVN repo than GIT.

If anyone wants to take repercussions of what I said then go ahead, I know this isn't the private boards, just saying I wished to have seen more out of 2.1.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2012, 07:40 PM
Dunno who's a fan of Curve... Probably Norv?
Glad to see we're not the only ones who have problems with git, ah ah... We're just old geezers. Dragooon is still young, he can take it in easily.

As for privacy, we pretty much decided to post most of our stuff on public boards anyway. It's not like we have anything to hide...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Kindred on August 1st, 2012, 09:34 PM
:)   I like curve, actually. :P

2.1 was never intended to be ground breaking. It was intended to take 2.0 - do some needed enhancements, add some features which we liked and fix a few other things which were still buggy in 2.0.
2.1, 2.2 and 2.x in general are progress using the 2.0 codebase, no major re-works.   That's intended for the SMC/SMF3.0 combination.

As for Bloc and Vienna - as good as Bloc is, he seems to have something like A.D.D. - he doesn't seem to focus on any project for much longer than a few months at a time.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Norodo on August 1st, 2012, 09:46 PM
That's not A.D.D...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Kindred on August 1st, 2012, 09:49 PM
it is the developer's equivalent of...
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2012, 09:51 PM
Well, I'm well aware that creativity isn't an infinite resource and at times you have to step back and recharge your batteries. But his style isn't stepping back and recharging.

@Kindred,
My understanding was that there wasn't going to be a 2.2, that 2.1 was only a stop-gap before 3.0.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: nend on August 1st, 2012, 09:53 PM
I have that. :niark:
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2012, 09:53 PM
Quote from Kindred on August 1st, 2012, 09:34 PM
:)   I like curve, actually. :P
So it was you...? :P
Quote
2.1 was never intended to be ground breaking. It was intended to take 2.0 - do some needed enhancements, add some features which we liked and fix a few other things which were still buggy in 2.0.
Yup, and I have no problems with that, but it's definitely odd that a year into it, it still isn't released..? Is there any 'work-in-progress' in it, or you just felt at the time that it wasn't 'worth' releasing at this point?
Quote
As for Bloc and Vienna - as good as Bloc is, he seems to have something like A.D.D. - he doesn't seem to focus on any project for much longer than a few months at a time.
Well... I'm sorta ADD in real life, but when it comes to Wedge I've always made at least a few commits a week for the last 100+ weeks... Demonstrating my focus.

Of course it's not about me... It's just my favorite discussion topic: myself :lol:
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: PantsManUK on August 2nd, 2012, 10:50 AM
Catching up with an old (for me) post, but frankly "meh".

As much as I like Bloc's previous works (we still use a modified Oxygen on our SMF install) I could care less about pretty much everything he's done since SMF 2.0 was announced. As for VBBS and comments posted there by him and others, sour grapes? I doubt very much any of them have come back to wedge.org since you started eating your own dog food, so they are basically pissing in the wind.

And to post merge (somewhat); less of the "old coders" young R-G. I'm 42 in a month and a smidge and I love Git, but I'm coming at it as a Mac user with Tower. The world of Git is totally coloured by your window onto it, your (graphical) client, and the Wintel marketplace is yet to have a killer graphical git client. Having said that, you guys should use whatever VCS best suits you and the project. DVCS isn't perfect (or even right) for every project, and if you are all happier using SVN (or Hg, or Bazaar, or CVS, or whatever...) then stick to what works best and balls to anyone that wants to argue the toss. Me, I'll happily wait until I can publicly and in license get the source tree and then I'll make a Git repo using it. :D
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nightwish on August 2nd, 2012, 04:41 PM
Quote from PantsManUK on August 2nd, 2012, 10:50 AM
And to post merge (somewhat); less of the "old coders" young R-G. I'm 42 in a month and a smidge and I love Git, but I'm coming at it as a Mac user with Tower. The world of Git is totally coloured by your window onto it, your (graphical) client, and the Wintel marketplace is yet to have a killer graphical git client.
There is smartgit, with decent functionality and crappy look and IDEA's git integration which will basically blow everything out of the water in terms of functionality and coolness (once you spent a couple of months to discover the endless number of cool things in idea).

But Tower *does* look nice and has the potential to make Windows/*nix users jealous :)

Totally disappointed by GitHub's very own Windows client. What a joke, it installs like 30+ megs... for what? Doesn't even *look* cool :)
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Dragooon on August 2nd, 2012, 05:13 PM
Mac has far better git clients than any Windows counterparts, I've personally tried everything on Windows and Tower blows them out of water. Even SourceTree (free I believe) or other clients on Mac are far better than SmartGit in terms of ease of use. I haven't tried IDEA though.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Kindred on August 2nd, 2012, 05:44 PM
Arantor,

Before I left the team, my proposal/push was to get 2.1 into beta July/Aug (still possible, thanks to a ton of work from emanuele!)
2.2, 2.3 releases would be dependent on the movement of SMC/3.0. If, as I suspect, SMC/3.0 is still several years away, then additional 2.x releases would be necessary, IMO.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 3rd, 2012, 01:15 PM
@Nightwish> Actually I think that Github for Windows' only good point is its Metro-inspired UI... Other than that, well, I uninstalled it long ago... It was 'relatively' easy to grasp, doesn't expose a lot of features but it still needs a lot of work.

@PantsManUK> Hmmm... A Wedge repo on GH? Well, I suppose we'd need an official GH repo synced from our SVN... Like https://github.com/WordPress/WordPress/ for instance... But I have to say, I don't see myself keeping track of it... Let alone integrating pull requests back into SVN. Maybe if we have a git specialist around (Dragooon?) who'd like to volunteer for the job...
Posted: August 3rd, 2012, 01:07 PM

@On topic: Bloc posted again on the subject(http://www.blocweb.net/index.php?topic=53.msg302#msg302)... All I can say is, what good is it to call us 'narrow-minded'? I think we all established long ago that we're all very protective of our own work, and while open to outside suggestions, we still ultimately retain the final decision on our own stuff... This is what Bloc can, and does do with ViennaBBS, and what we do with Wedge. The very fact that Bloc left the Wedge project over the fact that I didn't follow *all*[1] of his advice on the logo creation process says it all to me... I think he needed/wanted to be in charge of the entire visual area of Wedge, and would have stayed if he had such freedom. But I'm just as excited as he is about design, and although I don't have his skills, I do have a lot of experience, having been making neat websites for the last 16 years, so, what can I say... I guess it was already written. I don't think we lost time over this, though. I just find it sad that Bloc thinks he did. I for one sure would like to be able to rely on his skills and ideas for Wedge. But I'd rather have nothing, than have to give him full control over our themes, considering his recent lack of focus.
 1. I did follow some!
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 9th, 2012, 11:55 AM
I posted a long answer over there... Since it's a pre-moderated message (meh), I'm posting it here in case Bloc doesn't approve it...
Quote
Quote from Xarcell on August 9th, 2012, 01:19 AM
I really hate to hear it Bloc. I was waiting for viennabbs also. I even resigned from Dream Portal. Oh well, it is what it is.
I'm curious to see how long it will take you to innocently come back to wedge.org and discuss the upcoming release when you didn't exactly have nice words to say about it just last month when you had ViennaBBS to look forward to ;)
Don't forget about EosAlpha, either...

Bloc, I just wanted to register to make something clear on your forum -- because in the end, it's always about two communities not talking to each other and having preconceived opinions about one another.

So, without further ado:

- Yes, I rejected your last suggestions about Wedge, and no, it doesn't mean I'm a bad guy.

- Yes, Pete and I always have the last word on Wedge. But because we're the decision makers, we also have a huge responsibility to deliver on our word. And I'd much rather be 'powerless' at this point, and not have that responsibility. The stress level would be totally different.

- No, just because I rejected your suggestions, it doesn't mean I rejected you.

- And just because you have ego issues, it doesn't mean we don't respect you either. We do have ego issues, ourselves.

- I'd just like for it to make it clear that I have the utmost respect for your work and your skills, but that I don't think you're being fair -- to us, to your users, and to yourself. If you're going to make ViennaBBS, then do it silently like we did for a year with Wedge. Don't mention it, then say you're giving up, then resuming work, then giving up again. Just say it's something you don't have plans to release before 2015 or something, and people will lose immediate interest, while still trying to follow what you're doing. It'll be less messy.

- If you're going to complain about Wedge, say anything you like because it's a free country (well, France and Norway are free countries anyway), but I can't let you say it's a "developer-centric SMF" that is not thought out for themers. I spent many, MANY months of my life working on the CSS preprocessor for Wedge. It's a work of art in itself. I may not be as good a designer as you are, but I certainly know what designers need to make their life easier. And you even agree yourself to a point -- recently you mentioned how SMF required of themers that they overwrite index.css to replace some stuff in it, and you pushed towards being able to add on top of it. Well, as you know it's a feature that's been in Wedge for over a year and a half now...

So, I'm simply asking of you to be fair to us. We really liked having you onboard. Just because you didn't feel comfortable not having any actual control over Wedge itself doesn't mean we disrespected you in any way. You're in the same position as everyone else but Pete and I... Had you joined the project on day one, it might have been different, but at that point we were already the two-headed entity that became known as Wedgeward and we locked everything for everyone, including our close friends like Dragooon or live627 (who will gradually get more power over Wedge).
We made Wedge because we weren't happy with SMF's direction and lack of commitment of its team, not because we hated the software as it was at the time. Effectively, we left because the SMF team was too narrow-minded per se, what you're accusing us of being. And you were part of the team at the time.

I'm just wondering... What does 'narrow-minded' mean to you? Someone who doesn't think your way?

(Shamelessly inspired from Eugène Labiche's "An egoist is someone who doesn't think about me.")
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: spoogs on August 9th, 2012, 05:41 PM
That was mighty big of you Nao to reach out and clear the air with Bloc and I see he has allowed the post public and replied in kind. Hopefully things will remain civil going forward.
Title: Re: Bloc Madness
Post by: Nao on August 10th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Well, it might sound odd, but I don't hold grudges against people as long as they're willing to talk again (i.e. we both recognize our mutual interest in each other.)
Except with akyhne and vblamer of course, because they're so lame and don't even deserve a second of my time. :niark: