Wedge

AN is supposed to be talking to a lawyer to get a specific legal opinion on this, since I think there are a lot of misunderstandings...

BTW: I found where I was told (specifically) in PM by someone who I won't single out by name that "The DCO does everything that the CLA does, it is just easier to sign electronically and more convenient because of that"

regardless...  as I said, several of us (including at least one board member) were given the IMPRESSION that the DCO was a straight 1 for 1 replacement of the CLA.

(and yes, Arantor, owning the copyright means that SMF could, if necessary, change the license without getting signoff from every individual who has ever contributed code. That was the entire reason behind the CLA in the first place. We all saw the massive idiocy and mess that happened when Joomla tried to grant an exception to their GPL.)

That's not the impression of the posts I've seen, including from board members. But even if you were told that (and I'm STILL not convinced that's entirely the case), an ounce of brain power should have told you that it wasn't accurate, yet there's nowhere it seems to be arguing it.Ah, you still don't see the problem.

Let's say then, that down the line, there's a turnover of staff at sm.org. And they're all people who want GPL. The project can go GPL overnight and there's nothing that can be done about it if the board votes for it.

The problem with copyright assignment is that the assignee is being trusted not to screw it up. Can you really blame us for not having that faith in SM right now?

As long as code copyright remains with its author, that sort of thing can't happen in the first place. But that assumes you have a sound licence in place from which to contribute code.

The only misunderstandings here appear to be the ones of the people who think their rights have been squished upon by those bastard devs who cheated them so cruelly out of copyright assignment. Or not.

---

:edit: But all of this wrangling is pretty much moot at this stage. Once 2.1 lands, SMF will have driven yet another iteration of competent developer away. Leaving only people who shouldn't have the keys to the castle, but to be honest, are better than nobody.

It really doesn't matter two fetid dingo's kidneys whether SMF wants to have a stick up its arse about copyright assignment or not. The reality is:

1. There is no-one in the community is up and coming that has the skills to do the job of development.
2. All the time the team are labouring under the belief that developers are equal to everyone else, no developer with any competence is going to contribute, because while support/customizers/etc. are replaceable with modest effort, dev replacement is infinitely harder.
3. Even if you find someone stupid enough to volunteer, who has the skills, the bullshit around copyright is going to drive them away again.
4. Even if copyright is resolved, even if the closed attitude and political BS doesn't drive them away[1] and that's a huge ask, you need someone who is fluent or get fluent in the codebase in a short space of time to be able to do something with it, e.g. security fixes or even a theoretical 2.2. Do you know ANYONE who fits that profile who would actually do it?

1.

And it doesn't have to be outright. I'm well aware that I didn't get made Cust. team leader because people specifically voted to make sure I didn't - not because I wasn't up to the job, but because they wanted to see me join the dev team rather than stick it out in Cust. Yup. I was told this by the person who masterminded it.

Do note, Arantor... I have not blamed any DEVS for this misunderstanding. The person who said that to me is not a dev.

and once again... I object to the claim that we drove anyone away...
IchBin left and I won't go into what I think of that (aside from I believe it was extremely childish)
Spuds left because one of the board made a poor joking suggestion which someone passed on to him with the belief that it was real.
Suki left because she didn't like what SMF was planning. She felt that all development on any 2.x should stop and all efforts be put into OOP... Others did not agree.
emanuele has not left yet...   when he's done with this release and leave, I am still not sure I understand why...

However, the reason some people have CLAIMED for leaving in the past is because the devs don't have total control, or others are trying to tell the devs what to do and how to do it.
The first is true. The devs don't have total control.. and should not. They need to take the team and the community into account and work WITH others. However, that does not lead to the second... and the second is definitely, completely, and totally untrue. I have yet to see any ACTUAL example of anyone on the team telling any dev what to code or how to code it.  We've had arguments that something should (or should not) be included in a release... but  no one, to the best of my knowledge has ever even tried to interfere with the development or coding process.

I won't argue with the resulting mess... just with the suggested cause.

As for your number 4...   we have actually made an attempt to separate the political BS out of the project - and have mostly been successful (aside from instances like Suki who didn't seem to understand the separation - or, at leats, were always questioning it)
I don't know about such masterminded BS that you mention... I believe that was before I started paying attention to the crap going on in the team boards.

regarding the copyright... again... we disagree on the need for it... but, as it stands right now, it appears that it is a moot point, because the DCO was implemented and the board did destroy the CLAs...    I disagree with both choices, rather alot.. but I am not on the board, not in charge and my opinion is just that... my opinion. It holds no more weight than anyone else's at this point.
The only things I can comment on with certainty and definiteness are the bylaws (which I assembled) and the intentions of the board when the NPO was formed (because it was under my control at the time)

So a non dev misrepresented it to the board. Fantastic. Why is anyone listening to a non dev about dev matters, unless they are a legal person?Object to it all you like. Fact remains, that's the story being given, and just because you're not seeing it in 18ft high neon red letters doesn't mean it isn't happening. Not all of this is public, not all of it is in posts.Can't speak for IchBin. As for Spuds, he's not entirely thin-skinned from what I've seen, so if it was a poor joking suggestion, it must have been really poor.

Suki left because there seems to have been some kind of shutting out going on. When you get to the stage where people stop listening to what you have to say because it's you saying it, you're being shut out - and that is one form of not having your say in how things are run, especially with what you make.

emanuele has not left yet, but I think his words speak for themselves.And even when I give you a prime example of that you're still not seeing it? Are you as wilfully dense as you have accused others of being? (me, ARG, ref the Charter membership != donation stuff)

Yes, I'm frustrated. There is a serious lack of communication going on here.

If I give my code over to you complete with copyright assignment, I don't have final say in it, simple as that. I have no guarantee that SMF won't pull an Amacythe afterwards.

As I said... not having total control doesn't just come down to the stuff you think you've seen.So the fact I have an instance where team leader votes were rigged so that one person could be pushed forward towards being a developer is not part of that. Admittedly it was just before J10 landed, which should give you a clue as to what went down and why.Fair enough. I don't think it matters - or really helps - at this stage to point fingers, god knows we've done enough of that. But as far as I'm concerned that wall is very much still present - even if you don't think it is.

I have had multiple debates with people on the team recently who seem to believe the devs are no more important to the project than support staff, even though they're far less replaceable. When that mindset is entrenched, you're stuffed, because if a dev feels their contribution isn't being valued, that's another form of feeling like they don't have control over what they're doing.That's not really my point. Could you recruit a developer into the team, with things like this thread going on, laying all the evils to bear in public? That's why I'm deliberately doing this - not to drive developers away but to ensure beyond doubt that anyone who does sign up understands what they are getting into. And that's important, because nobody wants to contribute effort into beating a dying horse.That's because it wasn't ever posted anywhere. Don't make me name and shame with chat logs confessing it. I'd rather leave it at that for the other party's sake.

But there's other cases of people doing things with their own agenda.Yes, we do. I've stated why I believe you don't need to worry about it and shouldn't worry about it. Argue the opposite side: tell me why you believe it is necessary.


I still reckon it's moot until you can find someone to take up the reins. Because if not, you can safely shelve SMF development entirely after 2.1, either permanently, or temporarily until you can get yourselves sorted out. But then you still have to find someone willing to actually step up and do the work, and given the attitude being shown, the list of candidates is pretty damn small.

Arantor...  anything that happened before the reorg is ancient history and can't be laid at the feet of the current team.

I think somewhat less than half the current team were even on the team prior to the reorg.
However, pushing someone into dev...   as stupid as the method was (and no. I am not asking you to go into more detail, not do I care who it was) is not interfering with the devs...  I don't think... Well, it's weird and I don't really care to break it down... 
but anyway...   my point is that, as far as I know, no one has been telling devs what to do or how to go about doing it, despite the cries of some, I haven't seen any actual examples.... and no, I am not being willfully dense... I truly don't think that your case above is a point here... yes, they may have manipulated you into joining the dev team, but once there, were you told (not as in, we think this feature should be added, but actually instructed) that you had to do something by anyone outside the dev team?  Can any dev provide one solid example of a time when they were told what code to write?


that's what I mean...   yes, devs heave left... the recent ones for various reasons... but not for the reason that some people seem to be thinking - as far as I know, none of the recent devs have left because someone told them how or what to code... and even the ones who have claimed so in the past have yet to provide a concrete example.

(oh, and as for spuds...  he over-reacted, but it was not a case of being thin-skinned;  it was a case of telephone....     what was passed on to him second or third hand was WAY worse then the original joking comment (and the original comment was poorly phrased in the first place)

As for copyright...   I don't feel like getting into the argument again...   as I said, it really is a moot point now. The DCO was implemented. The CLAs were destroyed. Bad choices, IMO... but my opinion really only matters as an opinion and doesn't alter the situation.   So, although I'd like to see the CLA reinstated, I don't think it'll ever happen, considering what problems I had tracking down folks the first time around. So, we're stuck with the DCO.     So that part of your argument is moot (unless the lawyer that AB is supposed to be consulting with tells us something else)

And again you're missing the point. Yes, the actual events prior to reorg are history. The mindset and the mentality... a lot of that is still there.

And trying to push someone into the dev team is not interfering with the devs? You have a very strange way of looking at things.

Oh and I never actually joined the SMF dev team at any point. There was no way in hell I was joining that particular mad house.

The point that you're trying extremely hard to avoid is that you haven't seen any direct, literal examples of the devs being told what to do. Fine, except that's not the problem. There's all sorts of other things that are not direct and literal examples - the whole copyright thing is one of them. Why do you think you've never been given a concrete example?

The bottom line is, there are people who want to write code and want to make a great forum software but none of them want the madness that is SM over their shoulder while they do it. They would all rather go off and leave SMF to die, alone, than to try and save it. And you're doing a great job of demonstrating why none of us want to come back into the asylum to do anything. Why would we want to when there is that attitude facing us?

And yes, you're stuck with the DCO. That's probably the most sane thing going on.

I'm really sorry to hear you felt like that, because I always considered (and still consider) you a coder much better than me.
A while ago someone approached me asking if I were interested in be the developer (yes, the only because no one else was available I think) of a fork (not an existing one, one that never started AFAIK). I answered no, because I'm quite sure I don't have enough knowledge to start a fork from scratch [1], but you decided to start coding a forum from scratch [2]and I'm pretty sure you can do it.I can't speak for the others. For what I'm concerned I didn't even thought of inform anyone...
I remember a chat session with Spuds (slightly after his resignations), with him asking what was a good name for a fork, I was kind of joking TBH [3] and the following day, when I fetched his repo I got a "repo doesn't exists" or similar message, went to his github account and discovered he renamed the repo and started the fork. Then I simply deleted the old remote, forked the repo at gitbhub and cloned it locally (and added Spuds's repo).And I wish you all the luck of the world!
I'm interested in seeing it taking shape and maybe one day I'll send a PR (as soon as I understand how OOP code works... :ph34r: ).

1.	and at that point you may wonder how can I think to move SMF if I don't have the knowledge to start a fork: good question, let me know the answer when you find it :P
2.	that is something I suggested you to do when you still were on the team ;)
3.	May be interesting the story behind the name "Dialogo": he posted an excerpt from wikipedia about Galileo related to his importance on simple machines and one the first thing that came to my mind was: Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo[1] that inspired (to me) a quite ironic parallelism with the events at sm.org: Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief Development Systems: "organization" centric and "development" centric  1.  Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems

Eww, another misinterpretation...

..and I'm the one with language problems (when applicable of course ;) ) :whistle:

This time I will say Wrong and encourage you, Kindred, to look at my posts over there and quote here all the posts where I said exactly this line:

I'm OK with 2.1, I'm not OK with expanding it further.

The fact that I was against 2.2, 2.3 and so on, is not the whole reason why I left (nor OOP is the only thing I have on my head), I could have been working on 2.2 quite happily if that were the chosen path, but no, you guys where too busy saying No to every idea but your own... which was of course, keep working on 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, release 2.3 with only a few features and give the false impression that SMF is moving forward when in fact all 2.x is going to achieve is lost all the fanbase it got, after all, to think people is stupid enough to not realize that there is no real improvements in SMF besides minor features is seriously underestimating your fanbase, but alas, this path of keep expanding SMF 2.x branch was made by people who aren't devs, purely from a marketing perspective and with the word "survive" on their minds, If I were Unknown, I will be crying just by seen how my once proud and revolutionary project is now an empty shell of what it used to be, struggling to survive, barely breathing and whats worst, with the people in charge assuming everything is just fine and covering everything when it is pretty rotted on the inside. 


It is amusing you keep saying how wrong am I with the whole SM - SMF thing when Arantor said the exactly same things I said months ago, the very same arguments for what I was told I was so wrong...  suddenly now that Arantor had said those things, they become valid and deserves been listening to, awesome! at least now the ideas will finally get discussed.

For the record, I stated months ago that the DCO should cover all the needs the SM needs to cover.
There is no need for contributors to gain copyright of the whole script, which is what the SM org is so afraid of...
That the SM needs to simplify things for external contributors, no one will ever get near SMF if the SM requires you to give your personal info and other unneeded details.
The SM org needs to get focus on the actual project instead of trying so hard to cover their asses... if all that time and energy were put to promote the fact that SMF is now an open source project... :whistle:
Fear is what drives the SM org, fear and fear only.
Fear of losing their beloved possessions...
Fear to go out of the shell, the ever comforting shell where they created their little universe and rule overall. While the rest of the world moves forward, the shell is just there, slowly consuming its own resources, too proud to ask for help, too narrow to see the little help that someone can possible offer.Exactly, I'm pretty sure there are people who actually read my comments with a predefined, hollywood latino accent, it is pretty frustrating having to deal with people that have already a preconceived mindset towards you, if I don't agree with somebody, it is automatically assumed its a language barrier, when people read my posts, they don't look at the content but look for the grammar error, the weird punctuation, the lack of verbs, etc and gets focused on that instead of focusing on the actual content.

Sometimes I wish I never posted on the Spanish boards, that way people won't have that preconceived mindset, not only do I have to struggle to get my ideas reach anyone but I also have to deal with all the walls they put in front of me.This was out of pure courtesy really, but is not only that.

I constantly read about chats between you and Spuds regarding 2.1, I used to enter IRC and having my msn always open as much as possible, yes I talked to you fairly often but it was never in a "working environment", it was always as plain casual chatting. The same with Norv and IchBin.

I never ever talked to Spuds, I had his msn address but he was never on it (this also goes for other team members as well), dunno if he use another IM system.

Anyway, 2.1 development passed just in front of me like a train with no way to get up, I mean, yes I could have sent lots of pull requests I made completely blinded, dunno if that would helped that much, after all, you guys seemed to work just fine together.Is not like I want to do it that much... If the corp guys doesn't want me and the dev guys doesn't want me either, what am I suppose to do? where should I put all the feelings and ideas I have for SMF? I cannot just dismiss them and start doing something else.

Working on a new software is just my way and solution to deal with all of this, nothing more, I'm not gonna start a raging campaign against SMF claiming I'm the one and only SMF messiah, unique holder of the true, nor do I want to be target of attacks by people just because I left SMF, which is why I registered here mainly, to at least be able to tell my version.

If I think I have a feasible idea, an idea that was developed taking all things into account (and not only the marketing side or the "surviving" side), and idea that is flexible enough to fit all the SMF needs, and idea that will serve not only for the current time being but for cementing a base too, I have all the right to pursue that idea, even if it leads to nowhere (because the idea was conceived for a team and not a single person), at least I tried and I have no regrets.

OK, I'm going to say what I've been thinking privately but this is pretty much forcing my hand. I believe Kindred, through his statements here, is actually more of the problem than of the solution.Wait, you mean the team were saying things that the dev team couldn't do? Say it ain't so! ::)*sings* The CIIIIIRCCCLEEEE, the CIRCLE of LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIFEEEEEEEEEEE

This is what I really meant about the devs being told what they could and could not do. If you stonewall someone by pretending they don't exist or ignoring what they're saying just because it's them saying it, you have a huge problem. This happened to Runic before I joined, this happened to me while I was on the team - it's happened to others, and it will go on happening.I'm glad you feel you can do so :)Also wonderful. SMF is a strong base to work upon. Rewriting it is a formidable task but in so doing you get to shape it how you see fit, which is a wonderful thing. You don't have to pander to a given demand other than what you set for yourself.

ummm... no, Arantor.

I certainly never said no to any idea of new development... nor did anyone else.
What we said to Suki was "OOP is all good.... but we should not stop work continuing in the 2.x line"
So, no one shut her out.   Because we disagreed with her idea to completely stop development on 2.x after the 2.1 release, she seems to have assumed that means that we rejected OOP.
IIRC, what was actually said was "we can't just stop development of 2.x while you work on a completely new design that will take years to actually release." (which, BTW: Was exactly the same argument that was presented to Norv when SHE wanted to stop all 2.x development and only work on SMC (which was, at the time planned for 2-3 years out). The statement was followed up with something along the lines of "It is all well and good to work on OOP and something new... but we can't just drop the old stuff, either"

So, yup... I SAY IT AIN'T SO... and I call BS.

Also, I am not sure which arguments Suki thinks that we rejected from her that I accept from you. To the best of my knowledge, I have not changed my position on anything to do with this stuff...   You can call me "the problem" if you want... but I repeat... I don't have any power to make any decisions. If I disagree with someone and speak my mind, it is presented as MY OPINION ONLY, not the position of the project nor the position of the corporation.

I have never ignored someone, Suki or anyone else...   If I read something and have an opinion, I speak my mind. Doesn't mean I am right... but at least I am honest about my opinions and I don't go behind anyone's back to manipulate anything.
 

OK, say it with me, Kindred, "I am not the team"

Yes, you personally may not have said anything along these lines, but I know for certain things have been said along these lines. It just hasn't been done in quasi-public.

And yes, you don't have the power to make decisions. If only 1) that were relevant and 2) that were actually the point. You don't need to be a person in authority to sway things. I do it all the time, I encourage and discourage ideas based on their relative merits on sm.org - and I'm no decision maker by any stretch.

You don't have to be a decision maker to cause a decision to go a certain way. You may not even be aware of doing it.

I didn't say you were the problem, I said that of the attitude being displayed, you seemed more part of the problem than of the solution. These are not absolutes. It's also indicative that it's not necessarily a person that's the problem but the mindset and attitude.

So far in this thread we've seen plenty of cases of strawman arguments, missing the point, misrepresentation of the points being made, and conflation between individual and collective. Everything you've been saying amounts to 'it's not the team's fault that the devs are leaving' when all the devs are saying something very different. Very hard to see the problem if you're actually part of it, though I'm absolutely certain that it isn't intentionally the case.

The other thing is, you're speaking your mind, and we both know how stubborn you can be. The problem is, that discourages others from speaking their mind, so what you might regard as an opinion can and will be taken to heart by people.

And lastly, I never said you did ignore anyone. I said the team, as a collective, did that. Again, it's happened fairly consistently, both before and after the reorg. AND it's one method of taking away the power of someone to have a say in what they do.

You and I are never going to agree on a lot of things - and most of this debate is evidence of that. The thing is, all of us outside the team can see all these things and the road SMF is on, and the only reason we're bothering to entertain this is because we don't want SMF to die. We believe you don't either, so we're engaging and trying to show you what we've seen and known about for years in a last ditch attempt to try and salvage what's left of SMF.

As it stands, you have a developer who, in all balance of probability, will leave in one fashion or another by year end at the very latest, and another person with that title who doesn't have the maturity or skill to carry out the tasks that will be left, and you're continuing to discourage the people who could possibly ride in on winged horseback to drag things from the depths, and I'm not just talking about me or Nao here.

There is a part of me that thinks this should be locked as a waste of time, but I'll leave it open for now just in case there is something to salvage out of this mess. Just like SMF, really.

I am also reminded of why I originally set out to build a base from fresh, because then we wouldn't even be arguing - SMF would be dead or alive on its own merits. But that's water under the bridge now.

I do wonder what would have happened, though, if Wedge had never been forked.

Awesome, the same things I said 8 post ago are back again...  yes Kindred, you said all those things, I already said that... and when you said SMF isn't gonna survive years of development, do you remember what was my response? 

I said SMF needed to attract more devs. New external blood.
I said, cut off the requirements for contributions and don't harass the new blood.
I said the marketing team should promote SMF been finally open source...

All those things will help to cut off development a lot; that was my response to the "We cannot stop development for 2.x",  now, I wanted to keep the arguing and reach a consensus and I got nothing, you didn't even listened to my ideas, yous dismissed them altogether, you are/were so stuck with your idea for 2.1 development that it is the only thing you can see...

I was expecting something like "we can divide dev work, ones focusing on 2.x and others on 3.0" or some other idea, the point was to keep an open mind and be tolerant with the other side's ideas... but you simply don't seem to grasp that concept, It's what you want and nothing else, always what you want, all the time.

Also, why you keep saying "we" when no-one apart from you, decided to keep working on 2.x... didn't you said you aren't in charge anymore?

I don't recall any dev ever stating that they wanted to continue to keep working on 2.2 and so on... you did and decided everyone else want to do the same...  It was a decision devs should had taken and instead, you took it, you might not had said to me how or what to code but you certainly said to me what not to code which is essentially the same.

I'm utterly curios to know what else do you want for SMF, haven't you got bored already?

Even I'm amazed at where this is going, and I thought SMF couldn't get much lower - it's like the bad penny that keeps coming back. I got nothing to add, because the people who need to make changes aren't listening to what we've been saying (because it reiterates what Suki says right there, though I didn't suggest the pushing-it-now-it's-open-source, mostly because that's saying 'we finally caught up with all our current rivals')

And Suki... this is what I mean about your misunderstanding...

I am not the one who decided to continue with 2.1. Several of us made a lot of noise when Norv announced her plans to trash the 2.x line. emanuele and spuds took our comments to heart and OFFERED to work in 2.1. I certainly could not have forced them to do so... even if I was still the PM.

You have your perception of things (which is definitely flawed, because you are definitely missing things)

I imagine that my own perception of things is also flawed, since if it was actually as clear as it seems to me, none of you would be having these confusions...

As for you Arantor...  Yes, we have disagreed on many things. I thought we'd gotten over the digs and stuff like that, though...
SMF could get much lower?   Lower than what? What did SMF do that makes it so low?
There are definitely misunderstandings going on here...   and Suki is definitely a contributor to the misunderstandings... because her commentary is definitely misrepresenting my position. She may believe what she's saying, but she is also definitely wrong (and I should know, since I'm the one who said (or didn't say) many of the things that she claims.)
(remember what I said regarding the DCO and stuff...    regardless of what the facts may be, perception counts for much more)
However, from you, I am seeing the other side of the blind-eye - Because she feels jilted by SMF and is presenting a dirty picture, it seems like you think she must be automatically correct and anyone who contradicts her must be automatically wrong.

As for me not being the team... absolutely correct. However, it would seem that Suki is directing all of her accusations against me, personally, and is saying that it's basically my fault the she was shunned... (which she wasn't, BTW. We disagreed with her suggestion to shut down the 2.x line, just like we did with Norv's similar suggestion. and it was WE... several of the team, not just me.)

ARGH!

Let me just say this, one last time...
I never shut Suki down. I never told her what to do. I did say that she was wrong to suggest that 2.x be trashed after 2.1 while something else was being worked on for years to come and several others agreed with me.