Arantor

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #360, on January 10th, 2012, 12:13 AM »
And it long since predates the public area.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Nao

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #361, on January 10th, 2012, 09:03 AM »
But I would have moved it otherwise.

Anyway there are enough Friends to discuss it. I'm sure having the topic public wouldn't change anything.

Dismal Shadow

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MultiformeIngegno

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #363, on January 13th, 2012, 06:18 AM »
Really cool cover!

Dismal Shadow

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #364, on January 15th, 2012, 08:31 PM »
Quote from Lurker on January 7th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Re spoiler... no he didn't. They *both* lied. What he told her was not his real name. TWoRS actually shows you what he said.
Stupid me, I forget about that, found that in the ending scene.
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Yes, that's the case - it's the first time he meets her, and the last time she sees him. But the point where he tells her his name, the one time he could - we haven't seen that yet. We haven't seen their first meeting (from her POV) at the towers of Darillium, where he gives her his screwdriver.
That wasn't the first time they met was it, from her POV? She had the screwdriver in the Forest of the Dead/Silence in the Library, but she didn't have it on the Byzantium. So the screwdriver exchange had to happen between those events from her POV. And she becomes River Song in Let's Kill Hitler, which we have seen.

Arantor

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #365, on January 15th, 2012, 09:41 PM »
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That wasn't the first time they met was it, from her POV?
Hrm, it seems there's a slight bit of discontinuity (either that or my memory's failing), I always thought that the first thing they did was go to the towers of Darillium, at least that's how I remember it being implied in FotD.

Though, if I'm honest, everything in season 6 undermines the whole statement River makes in FotD about the way she first meets him (him turning up on her doorstep, knowing everything about her) because it's very clear she knows who he is before that happens, as though she's always known.

If anything, I'd argue that FotD is the incongruity.
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She had the screwdriver in the Forest of the Dead/Silence in the Library, but she didn't have it on the Byzantium.
Summing up her timeline as it must stand right now (assuming I'm remembering it all correctly)
* Melody Pond is born in the 51st Century under the watch of the Silents
* Melody is sent back to 20th/21st Century Earth to find the Doctor, but for whatever reason is injured and regenerates for the first time after speaking to the President.[1]
* Melody then ends up in Ledworth with Amy and Rory and grows up as their 'best' friend.
* She goes back with them to 1938 in the attempt to kill Hitler.
* At this point, she regenerates multiple times in saving the Doctor's life.
* The Doctor and gang drop her off on New New Earth in the 51st Century, unconscious, and tell the nurse that she is 'River Song', and leave her the diary.
* River Song becomes a doctor.
* River Song kills the Doctor (twice, once in each timeline) and goes to Stormcage.
* The Pandorica opens, universe reboots.
* The Byzantium.
* She visits Amy and Rory to tell them that the Doctor isn't dead.
* At some point she is presumably pardoned because she's not visiting the Library as a prisoner, and she is now a Professor, not a Doctor.
* They visit the Library and she dies.


Her actions in Impossible Astronaut suggest that it's later in her timeline but presumably it's early enough that she hasn't been to the Pandorica yet.

* Lurker is confused, it's almost as complicated as the Zelda timeline.
 1. This part is still not entirely clear, after watching it more than once.

Nao

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #366, on January 15th, 2012, 10:37 PM »
Watch Night 3 & 4, it's less than 10 minutes. You'll get your answer for the towers of Darilium. Then read through the timeline I posted :)

Dismal Shadow

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #367, on January 15th, 2012, 10:53 PM »
Quote from Nao on January 15th, 2012, 10:37 PM
Watch Night 3 & 4, it's less than 10 minutes. You'll get your answer for the towers of Darilium. Then read through the timeline I posted :)
Already did, Last Night did gave out a few hints...but stopped at "Spolier" Damn it. :)

Nao

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #368, on January 15th, 2012, 11:20 PM »
I was talking to Pete, since he mentioned he hadn't had time to watch it so far ;)

Arantor

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #369, on January 15th, 2012, 11:54 PM »
Ah, but I have since watched it and have duly noted the correction to timeline; Darillium is still the last time River meets the Doctor before FotD, but it definitely isn't the first time they met, meaning that FotD explains it wrong. Or River lies.

In other Moffaty news, Sherlock 2x03.

Considering it's not a Moffat story, there are Moffaty overtones.

On the plot...
(click to show/hide)
It's a bit weaksauce in places. Whereas in the earlier stories, it's been pivotal to everything (that all the events are part of the plot & character development all in one, the plot is basically a vehicle for pushing Moriaty and Holmes together like two titans clashing.

The mid point with the alternate identity... threw me for a loop but it was also the weakest point for me. It's almost as though it was needed for the characters to believe in the whole Holmes-fraud thing, rather than the viewer to get the dramatic irony. A touch overdone but still well presented. The actor who plays Moriarty does it so brilliantly at that point.

On the final confrontation/ending...
(click to show/hide)
Three things about the final confrontation that occur. Firstly, if ever there were any point to demonstrating Cumberbatch's skill at how well he'd be the Doctor, this is it. The showdown and the way he does it... bravo.

Secondly, for not being a Moffat story, it felt like a Moffat ending, in particular the whole 'got too big for his boots' theme that's also in Wedding of River Song struck home for me.

Lastly, while we have to wait for 3x01 to see how the fuck he got out of that one, it was obvious that he was going to, and after watching it, I'm still not sure just how far ahead of Moriarty he actually was, though you're meant to think he's figured *everything* out. He was obviously prepared to jump, but the fact that he jumped without obviously clearing his name... as far as we know? Seemed a leap too far. Holmes is the sort of person I'd have expected to have been recording the entire conversation with Moriarty, even broadcasting it to Lestrade & co, but it seems he didn't. I'm also getting a sense of 'Sherlock lies', much as the Doctor lies >_<, much of the 'too big for his boots' thing again... because you just know that next time, he's going to come back, clear his name and all will be well with the world again.

Other thoughts...
(click to show/hide)
Also, in the graveside scene, when Watson is shown reflected in the headstone, I was expecting Holmes to stride up behind him etc. because that's the sort of thing Moffat would have done (if only because it's the sort of thing the Doctor does, bah!) and it makes for great tension, but of course he's laying lower than that.

In a way I'd almost have preferred the way Conan Doyle did it originally to have been done here - that he's actually dead and that 3x01 reveals he isn't, rather than the reveal being done here. Though it wasn't as blatant (or, to be fair, amusing) as it was done in A Game of Shadows.

All in all, a very well done episode, weaker in the middle, but IMO better than Baskerville last week. Also note Gatiss' performance here is more human as Mycroft than we normally see of him, it's quite nice in a way.

Nao

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #370, on January 17th, 2012, 09:42 AM »
Okay, watched the episode last night... (Followed with the Once upon a time reprise... It's astounding how bad it fares in comparison. I know I've always seen this as a guilty pleasure, but it really sucks hard storywise, which is a bit sad for a show that takes place in 'Storybrooke'...)

(click to show/hide)
Yeah, it had a Moffat overtone (quite obviously, even though he didn't write the episode's script, he had his hand on the global story), and made me think of Dr Who but oddly, I'd say that this year's Who was actually inspired by Holmes... In the original Final Problem story, Holmes dies for good, and when Doyle wrote The Empty House, he explained that Holmes had to go into hiding to avoid being spotted by Moriarty's henchmen. So, basically, it's the same as the Doctor faking his own death and then basically acknowledging his death to avoid getting tracked down by the Silence and things like that -- among other reasons. So it's the same here. Holmes faked his death to ensure safety for his friends. He will then track down the hitmen himself, get rid of them, and come back next year. As for how he did it... Well, we never saw Moriarty's body after he died, did we? Maybe he dropped his body... As for how he managed to make him look the same... I have no idea. Or maybe Holmes had an evil twin brother than he used the opportunity to get rid of... :P
I'm more surprised, actually, by the level of madness that Moriarty showed. That he's prepared to kill himself just to 'win' this confrontation is a tad unbelievable. The actor was pretty excellent, like last year.

I didn't get the whole thing with Molly... The last scene with her, where she's scared of his showing up like that.

I have yet to see A game of Shadows, so no thanks for the spoiler... :niark:

It's a bit sad that we now have to wait at least a full year for the follow-up... To think that we'll see Watson as Bilbo BEFORE that... ;)

Arantor

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #371, on January 17th, 2012, 10:41 AM »
Once it was announced (rather publicly) that A Game of Shadows featured Moriarty in an active role, it was not surprising that the final scenes would be the battle over the falls. And, given that it's Hollywoodised, would you really expect anything less? Though, to be fair, it is done very amusingly. (Heck, I'll be buying the DVD when it comes out.)

Re spoiler: you're probably right, just hadn't occurred to me like that.

(click to show/hide)
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I'm more surprised, actually, by the level of madness that Moriarty showed. That he's prepared to kill himself just to 'win' this confrontation is a tad unbelievable. The actor was pretty excellent, like last year.
I'm not, really. Moriarty expressed that he did what he did because it was all a big game, and once he'd beaten Sherlock, what else was there for him to do? When you're at that level of intellect, you're already half way on the train to crazy town anyway... so hardly surprising that he'd be like that.

Mind you, after the first confrontation in 1x03 it wasn't really surprising that he'd be cuckoo, I mean...

Sherlock: People have died.
Moriarty: That's what people DO! (you can already see he's a bit unhinged in how this comes out)

Moriarty: Sorry... I'm just a bit... changeable!

Sherlock: Catch... you... later.
Moriarty: ... no you won't!


That, and when he's sat in the chair in Baker Street, and espousing how every fairytale needs a good villain, that cheeky little grin he makes is one that bad novelists will insist is 'dancing with insanity'.

So yeah, the insanity aspect is set up long before he pulls that trigger - and remember, in his mind, he's beaten  the only man that could have stopped him, and he's not merely beaten him... to him, he has done precisely what he promised he'd do: he's burned Sherlock, the very heart out of him by unravelling everything he stood for.

This is what good TV drama is about. It gets you pumped as you watch it unfold. DW and Sherlock are the only two dramas I've seen in a while where I've not only become emotionally invested in the characters and spent time picking away at it.

I haven't done that in CSI or NCIS or anything else I've watched in a long time, at least nothing comes to mind where I've done that.

Nao

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #372, on January 17th, 2012, 11:11 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 17th, 2012, 10:41 AM
Once it was announced (rather publicly) that A Game of Shadows featured Moriarty in an active role, it was not surprising that the final scenes would be the battle over the falls.
Well, technically, no, I'm not used to associating Moriarty with Reichenbach... My first contacts with the Moriarty character were Young Sherlock Holmes (okay, he's only post-credits... but no Reichenbach), and Sherlock Hound -- the 1984 anime show partly directed by Hayao Miyazaki, that was pretty fun and had Moriarty in every single episode as an adorable bigger-than-life villain. No Reichenbach either. I actually first saw the Reichenbach story in the 1984 Granada show which I discovered only a couple of years ago -- and was thrilled with. (And even then -- I only watched Holmes because I loved the Poirot show. Go figure...)

So, no, it's not automatically associated in my mind. Of course, *now* I know that Moriarty ONLY shows up in The Final Problem in the original Doyle works - he's mentioned in other stories, but only that.
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And, given that it's Hollywoodised, would you really expect anything less?
Sounds cool to me, still :P
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Though, to be fair, it is done very amusingly. (Heck, I'll be buying the DVD when it comes out.)
I missed the movie when it came out in theaters. Well, it's probably still in some theaters, but I have other priorities than going to the movies anyway...
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This is what good TV drama is about. It gets you pumped as you watch it unfold. DW and Sherlock are the only two dramas I've seen in a while where I've not only become emotionally invested in the characters and spent time picking away at it.
It sure is justified!

Oh -- and I think the Richard Brook story was not meant for the viewer (unless suddenly Moffat decided to go for the easy hollywood-type twists?!), I think it was there to plant the seed of doubt into Watson. I'm actually not convinced Moriarty managed to change his identity -- I mean, he does say at the end that there's no such key as the computer code, so he couldn't have done it 'easily'... I think he only cooked up that file with his photographs. A decent amount of photoshopping and with the help of his henchwoman (who, I'm pretty sure, didn't do the photoshopping herself, considering her computer skills in the IT Crowd :P), he managed to pull out a satisfying game in her house.
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I haven't done that in CSI or NCIS or anything else I've watched in a long time, at least nothing comes to mind where I've done that.
Homeland...? That was a pretty smart show.
And Steins;Gate, by far, but I've already mentioned it too much :P

Arantor

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #373, on January 17th, 2012, 11:53 AM »
Ah, see, I'd read all the stories long before I saw any adaptations onto the big or small screen, so the Falls association made sense to me perfectly.
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Sounds cool to me, still
Oh, it is. The way the ending is played out is awesome, in particular, but the whole thing works pretty well. It's also curious to actually observe the way the two different writers explore facets of what is essentially the same character in two very different - but somehow oddly familiar - settings.
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Oh -- and I think the Richard Brook story was not meant for the viewer (unless suddenly Moffat decided to go for the easy hollywood-type twists?!), I think it was there to plant the seed of doubt into Watson.
It wasn't meant for the viewer at all, it was meant for the characters and their universe. It wasn't just about putting a seed of doubt into Watson (who, by the close, in his own mind doesn't have any doubts at all, he KNOWS what he saw, and even before that when he confronts Mycroft over it, you know at that point, he doesn't have any real doubt), but it was about undermining Sherlock in everyone else. It is a credible backstory in the confines of their universe as to how Sherlock could theoretically have stage managed it.

You see, for Moriarty to just come out with 'Sherlock managed it' doesn't stand up for a moment, but it would stand up if 'Moriarty' were a piece of fiction that could conceivably have been created in the context of the 'Sherlock managed it' scenario.

The only issue I had with it is that Watson and Mycroft both know the truth but have no way to clear Sherlock's name. There are ways that the government can intervene on such things, and have done.

With the dossier... he certainly cooked that up, but not with her help; it was after all part of the game to manipulate her too, and that's exactly what he did. But given how he managed to get into the places he did, I'm fairly certain that he would have the ability to create a new identity for himself should he wish to. The thing is, his ego wouldn't allow him to go too far in sustaining such an alternate identity (remember, when he was working in the hospital, he was *Jim* from IT, not any other name)

Though there wasn't nearly enough paperwork there to imply a true second identity, no bills, no birth certificate etc. though I have no doubt Moriarty could have produced them when needed.
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Homeland...? That was a pretty smart show.
And Steins;Gate, by far, but I've already mentioned it too much
Hahah, though I've not seen Homeland either. Mind you, I find that as much as I like engaging drama (and there's not enough of it), I do like less brain-aching TV... just before Christmas I'd gotten into watching reruns of Angel (the BtVS spinoff) though due to the Christmas break I managed to miss half a season and promptly gave up trying to figure out what was going on, so I'll just grab that on DVD sometime and rewatch it that way.

Dismal Shadow

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Re: Doctor Who
« Reply #374, on January 17th, 2012, 02:49 PM »
 http://www.tgdaily.com/entertainment/60797-moffat-and-myles-tease-doctor-who-plot-point

If Myles does returns, it'd be interesting to how the story goes and how it ties in their timestream from the Girl in the Fireplace.
I'm guessing he'd go back into her timeline & remove her, perhaps thru the fireplace. He had promised to 'show her the stars' - and he always keeps his promises!

She'd then be his companion, returning to her own time at some future point.