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16
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 10:39 PM »Now I'm not tablet constrained, I'll explain a bit further.
1. You're pretty much the only person that's complained about it in the 10 months we've been using a sidebar on this site. It is somewhat rude to barge in and demand we change it just for you. If you were part of a majority that demanded it, we might reconsider, but I doubt it.
2. There is such a thing as optimum reading width - note that most books are of a fairly standard size, and even when they're not, the text is still set to roughly the same number of words per line and per page, just with bigger writing. I wonder why that is... could it be that they understand people best respond to a certain number of words on a page at a time? Having very wide screens is more tiring on the eyes and the brain than having shorter lines.
3. I respect that you have a list of requirements that you have to be seen to follow. Barging in here and expecting that we follow your to-do list is not going to happen.
More importantly though, there's actually very little fundamentally wrong with SMF - if it's working for you, stick with it, you don't have to upgrade past 2.0.x if you're happy with it. There are plenty of people still using SMF 1.1.x which debuted 7 years ago. (And what about all the people who still use Windows XP which debuted just over 11 years ago?) You don't have to have the latest and greatest, and it seems to me that you're looking to move on from SMF because you think you're missing out, rather than because it doesn't do the things you need.
And I was expecting that "just go stay with SMF if you don't like how we do it". No. I'm going to have to find another forum platform, like vBulliten or something, which I'm certain I will hate. We just got the latest SMF update a few weeks ago or so, and the one before that was a year ago. That is insane, and isn't me "wanting to stay with the latest and greatest".
As for the latest and greatest, don't get too ahead of yourself. It took you 2.5 years to get to alpha. Obama may be in his 3rd term by the time this gets to beta. v1.0 stable compared to current alpha is going to be a generation apart. Why you don't have more help is beyond me, but whatever. It tells me this project is more of a hobby, which is fine, but you should tell people that up front. I found this forum because you announced to the heavens that SMF was ignoring you guys and treating you bad, so you were forking. Then I come on here, fall in love with what you guys are doing, simpy ask "gosh, can we just have a hide option for the sidebar if we want", and I get told to go jump in a lake, like they did to you, for my "demands". Everything you guys said about display is correct, and again, I don't mind a sidebar (filled with content that I want). I have a forum with a lot of old people who have small monitors from the 1990s and CTRL-+ their displays to where their scrollbars have scrollbars. I tried to place a sidebar to display our friend forums, and they almost came after me with pitchforks. I didn't expect our forum would be growing like it is, hence why I'm looking at other options now. I got tasked with handling the tech side of it because of my expertise, so I'm just trying to find the best option, which this is. Anyway, I'm not asking for schema changes and major refactoring. I'm asking for a little checkbox that tells the rendering to just not display the sidebar.
Nevertheless, I'm going to pop in and keep up with the project, and I'm going to tell folks about this project who are looking for a new forum. Ironically, by the time you get this to v1.0, the old folks who don't want sidebars may have died off at that point, so it may work itself out.
By the way, can we have more than one sidebar?
17
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 02:01 PM »That's their problem.
Nowadays, new monitors tend to be 23'' or more, with full HD resolutions or better. Early websites were built with a 800x600 resolution in mind, and for many, many years, webmasters would keep it readable in 800x600 even with higher resolutions around. Then mobile browsing was born, and with it the need to be even more readable in very low resolutions (e.g. even if your mobile phone has a HD resolution like mine, on a non-optimized page text is really not readable without zooming, so you need to take care of that).
Thus, the solution I chose for Wedge:
- Ensuring that at very wide resolutions, we don't get a totally different experience, and yet make use of the extra space. This is accomplished by adding a sidebar.
- Ensuring that very narrow resolutions look good, This is done by dynamically moving the sidebar to the bottom of the screen when the 'declared' resolution is below 1024x768 (or including it, I'm not sure anymore).
Do you see many people complaining that Facebook has TWO sidebars...? I've never seen anyone ask for them to remove even one...!
Just because other forums don't have a sidebar by default doesn't mean we should do the same.
I'm the one who pushed for Wedge's sidebar to be not only default, but also non-removable (i.e. at best it's moved to the bottom and reflowed.)
I guess someone could write a plugin to get rid of the sidebar. But what's the point. You just lose information.
You're free to whip up a quick custom skin that moves sidebars to the bottom permanently. It's really easy to do. It's just not recommended.
18
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 01:36 PM »Depends upon the width, I have 24" monitors and it gets ridiculous.
19
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 10:21 AM »
How is reading the width of the display bad readability?
20
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 09:56 AM »
We have a lot of older members who want the width of their display, so sidebar is a nogo. Also, it makes no sense to have a sidebar if you have a few items because it's empty when you scroll down.
yes, I know it's free.
yes, I know it's free.
21
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 09:29 AM »
Damn. This is a huge disappointment and a case in point why coders shouldn't make design decisions. We tried to place a sidebar on our forum and we had a revolt. I'm not going to be able to port to Wedge. Dammit dammit dammit.
22
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 6th, 2013, 08:33 AM »
Wait.... sidebars are/will be permanent???
23
Off-topic / Re: Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 08:20 AM »Does over a dozen plugins count? :P
24
Off-topic / Re: Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 07:58 AM »Hey, nice to see another programmer here!
Are you a contributer to the project?
25
Plugins / RSS Feed-to-post
« on January 6th, 2013, 07:57 AM »
Howdy all,
I figured I throw my deman... I mean, request in. My SMF forum is a political forum, and when discussing news articles, my users must:
1) find the article
2) create a new post
3) copy and paste a small snippet from the article to the post
4) put quotes or some deliniation around the text to show it was from the article
5) copy and past the link to the article
6) comment on the article
I know -- I'm sweating just thinking about all that work. What I would LOVE (and SMF didn't have it) is for the admin to specify one or more RSS news feeds, and those feeds to display in a little box or something. If a user sees an article title of interest, they click on it and pops up the article in a new browser window/tab. If they want to, they click on a "post", or something in the box, and a new post is created with the title of the article (the user can modify it if they want). A snippet of the beginning of the article and a link populates the post (maybe with a BLOCK/CITE tags?), and that item is removed from the feed box.
This I know this would create more traffic/discussion on my forum.
Does this make sense?
I figured I throw my deman... I mean, request in. My SMF forum is a political forum, and when discussing news articles, my users must:
1) find the article
2) create a new post
3) copy and paste a small snippet from the article to the post
4) put quotes or some deliniation around the text to show it was from the article
5) copy and past the link to the article
6) comment on the article
I know -- I'm sweating just thinking about all that work. What I would LOVE (and SMF didn't have it) is for the admin to specify one or more RSS news feeds, and those feeds to display in a little box or something. If a user sees an article title of interest, they click on it and pops up the article in a new browser window/tab. If they want to, they click on a "post", or something in the box, and a new post is created with the title of the article (the user can modify it if they want). A snippet of the beginning of the article and a link populates the post (maybe with a BLOCK/CITE tags?), and that item is removed from the feed box.
This I know this would create more traffic/discussion on my forum.
Does this make sense?
26
Off-topic / Re: Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 04:27 AM »It's not my story to tell. But the public information is enough to figure out the general story even if not the specifics.Quote I'd love for you to dish, but I guess you want to keep it close to the chest.Yes, the same as in SMF - in the admin panel there is an option to remove nested quotes. We have removed some SMF 'features', but not that.Quote Hey, regarding the quoting, is there a way to get rid of nesting quotes?
27
Off-topic / Re: Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 04:02 AM »Therein lies an interesting road to madness. Do you write something because of how the parser will handle it, or do you write something because it's readable and maintainable and let the parser do its thing? Bonus question: does that mean a PHP developer should keep in touch with the changes of PHP's own code beyond keeping up with bug fixes and changelogs and regularly rewrite code?
Yes, I have an understanding of what a zVal is, but it has little real impact on how I write code day to day.
It's interesting, actually. One of the challenges I've faced lately is working with PclZip. I've made my dissatisfaction known here about it, but as much as I dislike it as *PHP* code, I can't argue that there is a logic behind how it's written; it is essentially written how one might write C code - every function accepts pretty much every non-scalar parameter as a reference, uses $p_ prefixes to indicate what are references from outside vs $v_ prefixes for local variables, and each function returns 0 for success and non-zero to denote error with the actual error being denoted by the return value specifically, along with passing options to functions through what in PHP terms is large abuse of variable function arguments and just parsing the list of responses against a list of known options and sanitising the values that come through thereafter.
In engineering terms, it probably works very closely to how PHP would handle the bytecode. But as far as maintainable, readable PHP goes, it's hard work - and in the last 10 years I've both written and read very ugly PHP.
For the most part, though, the problems that are born out of bad logic are not born out of misunderstanding how the parser works and writing code that doesn't translate efficiently, but simply out of writing bad logic. You can micro-optimise to fix a given routine, even refactor/rewrite it, but there are just some problems that are too large to be fixed like that. We have a couple hanging around right now like that where the logic has sort of brought us to a cyclic dependency that can only be fixed by large scale changes. But that's the nature of the beast.
Tell you one thing though. There's the likes of XenForo and IPB which are written in a much more 'modern' style and much more in line with the 'way of things' by the book, as it were, but it's less about practicality and performance for them, enforcing consistency and style becomes more important. I don't have any hard benchmarks but the limited performance tests I've done on my own stuff suggests that both SMF and Wedge outperform IPB quite well most of the time and are more than comparable to XenForo. "More correct" doesn't necessarily mean better ;)
Well, there are several people who have read only access to the main SVN tree, and several more who've had private alphas but they're milestones rather than current bleeding edge.
As far as the us-and-them goes... there's a few that hang out here occasionally, and we've been known to share bug reports on occasion, but it's interesting to note what is going on behind the scenes.
For those of you wondering what I mean, I'll just say the word Elkarte and leave the rest to you.
Hey, regarding the quoting, is there a way to get rid of nesting quotes?
28
Off-topic / Re: Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 03:24 AM »The majority of the good ones get assimilated into the team, screwed over and leave. The slow release structure is related.
None whatsoever, except learning how to design mindfucked UI (Drupal)
Understanding the internals of PHP is no real benefit to writing stuff higher up, just as writing assembler probably won't help you write good stuff in higher level languages. I have a passing awareness of how the guts of the language work, but really, that's no substitute for decent programming style in general.
Caching, yes, pretty clued up on that.
Thing is, this is a FORK. It has a lot of SMF code still in it, a lot of SMF mentality and mindset and it's going to take a long time to phase that out, short of a complete rewrite.
Even much of the recent code still doesn't look particularly out of place from SMF, though we're finally moving stuff to using classes and exceptions, stuff that SMF never used because until recently it was supporting ridiculously old versions of PHP (SMF 2.0 will still largely work on PHP 4.1 and 4.2 and should be fully functional on 4.3+, even taking into account the magic loader that rewrites PHP 5.0 style classes with scoping to make them largely work with PHP 4.x)
There already is, written by the guy who used to write converters for SMF ;)
It's just been two guys (well, one guy the whole time, one guy sort of part time) the whole way through. But between the two of us we've worked on the biggest plugins for SMF; Nao did Aeva, I did SimpleDesk (that little helpdesk that even SMF themselves use)
Hard question to answer, since there's no security 'certification' per se for web design. What I can tell you is that in a couple of weeks I'm taking the Zend certification for PHP and in previous mock exams I've done, my security knowledge always came out as excellent. I try and design things for security first. For example the plugin system I've been doing is being engineered to allow people to upload plugins through a web interface but it jumps through a lot of hoops to avoid writing things as owned by the webserver, to prevent them being attacked on a shared server.
But the fact I've been known to report security issues to SMF (one of mine prompted SMF 2.0 RC5), I've also been known to review all the vulns I could find for SMF 2.0 and verify whether they are genuine or not. So, I guess you could say that there's a decent amount of security experience around here.
Nao was Aeva's developer/maintainer, I just came along and wrote a bunch of mods for SMF as well as being a reviewer on their Customiser team, writing their helpdesk and so on. In the scheme of things, Nao's the star here.
I would note that this isn't just a demo forum, it is the *primary* forum for the site, where we discuss features and so on. Sometimes we discuss them with an awful lot of passion, because we've put a lot of time into this and it frustrates us when that time doesn't work out so well.
That is pretty much where SMF is right now. I don't want to explain more, but they're not in a good place right now, and anyone watching their Github repo would probably understand where the problems are right now.
29
Off-topic / Wedge seems cool
« on January 6th, 2013, 02:34 AM »
Howdy,
I have an SMF forum that has been growing (getting about 600k-700k views per month after going live 2.5 years ago), and I'm thinking ahead to getting off SMF. It seems like some basic things I would expect aren't available, and I'm not sure a lot of the mod developers know what they're doing, to be honest (I'm know you guys are good though ;-)). Plus, a release every year seems odd to me.
As an experienced software developer, I'm curious about the Wedge platform, and look forward to getting up to speed on the architecture and decisions that were made. On the web side, my team uses Drupal and Rails, so I'm curious how much influence those frameworks had on Wedge.
A few questions (that may be answered after I poke around some more):
- are you guys experienced enough with software development to build a robust and scalable platform? For example, do you understand the internals of PHP, cacheing, etc.?
- will there be a utility to convert from SMF?
- do you have a big enough of a team to pound away at the the core, and enough developers to build plugings/mods for basic stuff (like your Aeva SMF mod)?
- what security expertise is on the team?
I really like this demo forum, and I'd love to be one of the first to use it when it's pushed to stable. I ended up on this forum after looking for the latest Aeva mod, and got up to speed on the politics of SMF. If you guys were the leading contributers, and decided to fork, then it makes sense to me to stick with and rely on you guys. It's not unrealistic for our traffic to grow to a few million hits per month, so I want to make sure I make a good decision before we convert. To sum up my position on my forum, I feel like I'm on a plane set on autopilot, and both pilots are dead.
Anyway, I'll be poking around.................. :-)
I have an SMF forum that has been growing (getting about 600k-700k views per month after going live 2.5 years ago), and I'm thinking ahead to getting off SMF. It seems like some basic things I would expect aren't available, and I'm not sure a lot of the mod developers know what they're doing, to be honest (I'm know you guys are good though ;-)). Plus, a release every year seems odd to me.
As an experienced software developer, I'm curious about the Wedge platform, and look forward to getting up to speed on the architecture and decisions that were made. On the web side, my team uses Drupal and Rails, so I'm curious how much influence those frameworks had on Wedge.
A few questions (that may be answered after I poke around some more):
- are you guys experienced enough with software development to build a robust and scalable platform? For example, do you understand the internals of PHP, cacheing, etc.?
- will there be a utility to convert from SMF?
- do you have a big enough of a team to pound away at the the core, and enough developers to build plugings/mods for basic stuff (like your Aeva SMF mod)?
- what security expertise is on the team?
I really like this demo forum, and I'd love to be one of the first to use it when it's pushed to stable. I ended up on this forum after looking for the latest Aeva mod, and got up to speed on the politics of SMF. If you guys were the leading contributers, and decided to fork, then it makes sense to me to stick with and rely on you guys. It's not unrealistic for our traffic to grow to a few million hits per month, so I want to make sure I make a good decision before we convert. To sum up my position on my forum, I feel like I'm on a plane set on autopilot, and both pilots are dead.
Anyway, I'll be poking around.................. :-)