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Messages - dwc
Off-topic / Re: Thoughts from Jeff Atwood
« on August 2nd, 2013, 02:33 AM »
I just looked at their sandbox forum.  In my opinion, it is horrible.  Their * sites are so hard for me to use.  For Discourse, my ADD went into overdrive and I couldn't even use it.  Simplicity is so much better, and wedge is light years better than theirs.

PS - the smileys on my post form are all stacked vertically, fyi...
Off-topic / Re: Thoughts from Jeff Atwood
« on February 12th, 2013, 04:29 AM »
I saw that too.

Stackexchange/stackoverflow is the worst site ever.  I can't believe it's as big as it is.
The Pub / Re: Looking for volunteers to test the Wedge private alpha!
« on January 18th, 2013, 07:37 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 18th, 2013, 06:13 AM
I would also remind everyone of what I said in

Ignore any $2 mentions for now, that's a known bug.
Sorry.  I missed that.
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 18th, 2013, 12:25 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 18th, 2013, 12:20 AM
At the risk of repeating myself... anything a plugin can do will just be to hide it. To actually prevent all the other stuff happening would be to either make an option for it, or have everything detect whether the sidebar is present.

Either case requires more effort computationally than is currently in use, so hiding a plugin, while entirely possible, is not a smart idea because it will force more work to be done than it should be.
I understand.
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 18th, 2013, 12:17 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 18th, 2013, 12:16 AM
Short of actually implementing the option you wanted, there is no way to refactor it to avoid those things.
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 17th, 2013, 11:57 PM »
Quote from Arantor on January 17th, 2013, 10:05 PM
I already alluded to this fact when I said there were multiple ways it could be done - except they all result in the same side effect of queries being run that should not be, and content being set up but not being displayed.
No worried... I'm sure after you refactor it, it will work perfect!
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 17th, 2013, 09:15 PM »
Quote from Nathan Sparrow on January 8th, 2013, 06:06 AM
We'll agree to disagree that forcing a sidebar is not the answer to that.
Anyone can make a plugin to remove the sidebar if they don't like it. Developers make their own software for their uses and distributed it for free because they want to share to the users.
I'm not sure what the plugin system looks like yet, but that's good it is doable.

I'm sort of coming around to the functionality of the sidebar...
The Pub / Re: Looking for volunteers to test the Wedge private alpha!
« on January 17th, 2013, 08:58 PM »
I know this thread is in regards to alpha testing, and I apologize if I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'd like to throw my hat in for beta testing when it comes around.  I can test it as a user, and if at some point given read access, I can pour through code during my spare time to get up to speed on the architecture, and complain about stuff that doesn't look right, or to help with documentation.  I'm very busy with my projects, but I am very interested in this project, and have faith in Arantor and Nao to deliver, so I'm willing to try and get involved more -- at least in reading posts and commenting.

1 - How long have you been a SMF user?
Since 2010.

2 - If you're planning to use Wedge on a live forum, post its URL.

3 - How much daily time you think you can devote to testing Wedge.
1-5 hours per week.

4 - Is there a feature in Wedge that you're most interested in? Something you'll focus your testing on, etc... Or just something you're just excited to use!
So far, it looks like the current alpha features would suffice.

5 - If you're a hot young lady, post a picture of you, preferably on a boat (in front of a boat is also acceptable), or in an administration building's waiting line.
Hot chicks in IT are like Bigfoot -- I'm not saying they don't exist, I've just never seen one.
Other software / Re: Discussing Wedge on
« on January 12th, 2013, 06:04 AM »
Wow.  One dev at SMF???????????????

That makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 7th, 2013, 03:36 AM »
Quote from live627 on January 7th, 2013, 02:43 AM
Obama may be in his 3rd term
FUD?  That cannot happen.
I hope you're right...
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 7th, 2013, 01:16 AM »
That isn't what I said. I said that had compatibility code in there from back in the PHP 4 days. The fact it supports older versions of PHP isn't inherently a bad thing, just as it's not a bad idea that software works on Windows XP when 7 and 8 are the current versions.
I misworded that.
It's the case. Trust me, if there were issues with SMF security, it would have been fixed in Wedge by now and very likely someone would have told them about it.
That's good.
Except that was the complete opposite of what I meant, and in fact of what I said. The problem isn't developer ego. It's everyone else who believes that their say is as important as the developers' say except they're not the ones doing the work.
Seems guys like vbgamer (I've been trying to catch up) may have ego issues, which hurts the community.  The developers develop for the users -- not themselves.  So, in the end, for UI/UX, developers shouldn't be making those decisions (at least not most of them).
As far as mobile posting on SMF, you could do a lot worse than's offering.
Oh, cool... I'll check that out.......
As far as blogs go, notice that it's not exactly prominent here and amounts to nothing more than a custom theme, and can't be made anything like what you're after without a serious rewrite, so much so that I've thought about dropping core blog support because it's too limited for most uses.
And are they full width or fixed width?

Let me put it this way, I have a 17" laptop, with 1920x1200 resolution, and most forums being that wide (at, say, 95% width) just become hard to read. So many forums I know actually have a fixed width to prevent that being an issue anyway. But even though I have a large resolution, I invariably run my browser window at around 1000px wide because that's how the web seems to work best, not to mention the fact that it keeps the reading width about right.
Fixed width...
Because you're dealing with a very specific subset of the forum population. I however have had the interesting experience of providing support on, which doesn't have the sidebar out of the box and between there and here, I know which is more popular. You might not have had a complaint but I guarantee that if we make it an option, it's going to provide a plentiful source of support issues for us to deal with.
I guess it's because we're on fixed width... I guess that's why.
And therein lies the other difference: Drupal is incredibly modularised. Ordinarily I wouldn't complain about that, but what that means is each module does its own work in terms of databases, as opposed to a flatter structure that gets all the data it needs for the current page or thereabouts. The result is something much more efficient for its own use (I've seen Drupal installations demanding quite literally hundreds of queries from the database to render a single page) but less directly configurable. But in any case, Drupal should not be a benchmark to measure against, except to measure how much faster you are. The ideals of pluggability are wonderful but the practicalities just don't stack up.
Drupal has its own issues, no doubt...
I thought we'd already explained it did this before? Anyway, not without a code change and not a nice one. See if Uncle Nao is prepared to expend more bytes per page, every page.
Yes, but now I actually tried it, and it looks fabulous.
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 7th, 2013, 12:33 AM »
Let me say this... I just scrunched my browser in, and the sidebar dropped to the bottom -- that looks perfect.  Is there a way to make it do that on default (as opposed to hiding it)?
Plugins / Re: RSS Feed-to-post
« on January 7th, 2013, 12:28 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 7th, 2013, 12:27 AM
It would, but it's also pretty much something that I can't imagine many people wanting. Nice idea though.
Yeah, I seemed to be the only one requesting it over there.
Plugins / Re: RSS Feed-to-post
« on January 7th, 2013, 12:25 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 6th, 2013, 04:19 PM
There are at least two SMF mods for posting RSS feeds, and one is planned for Wedge. Though none of the above is how they work, they just read the forums and turn them into conventional new topics.
Yeah, they're just robots that do the posting.  I'm looking for an interactive funcionality.  A lot of our discussions originate from the same sources.

(Don't slap me, but this would fit great in the sidebar)
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 7th, 2013, 12:23 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 6th, 2013, 11:02 PM
The words do not come across as a request. Flat out insults do not usually come as part of nice requests.
I apologize if I did that.  It's not intentional.
Then why move off SMF?
I don't trust they have their shit together -- especially after you told me they are still on PHP 4.
SMF 2.0 went to a stable release a while ago, the updates since then have been security updates only. That's a sign of quality, not poor development, that it has only needed 3 patches of any kind since 'stable' release.
I hope that's the case.
So I will say it again. Why are you upgrading? Are you doing it to get features you don't currently have, or because you perceive there to be a problem with the platform (that doesn't really exist)?
The first is we have a demand for a blog system.  The two I tried on SMF were crap and had to uninstall them.  Then, we found a lot of our users are actually posting from smartphones/tablets.  For our members, posting about politics is addictive, and they will post while standing in line at the grocery store.  They've been slowly requesting, more and more, for a way to have a responsive or friendly way to comfortably read and post from their devices.  I don't see SMF offering this any time soon.  If I saw a bunch of new modules popping up left and right, then I'd have some hope.  Then I see they are working on SMCore, but then I read that is a pipe dream.  SMF was great, but like some projects, politics and inter-fighting happens, and it strays.  If they don't have an active community, then it's time to start looking elsewhere.  So, I don't trust the near future of support, the availability of modules, moving to a HTML5/CSS3/responsive world, etc.
I'm reasonably comfortable with the speed of our development. Getting snippy about that isn't winning you any fans.
Because we learned the hard way what happens when you have too many people chiming in with their say. It's largely what's killing SMF, though not nearly the only thing.
Managing developer egos is difficult.  I've been to hell and back with that, so I understand.
Where have we ever said it is anything else? We're not charging you for anything. We're not demanding anything from you. We're doing what we've always done, what we've always said we're doing, which is building it for us, and being nice enough to check with people that they're happy to use what we're doing in the process.
I get it. Nothing wrong with that.
There's a lot more to it than that. Firstly, as explained, there are logistical and practical reasons for having the sidebar - preventing the content taking full width modest-and-up screens is one of them.
We'll agree to disagree that forcing a sidebar is not the answer to that.
Secondly, more importantly, let me take that concept for a moment: hiding the sidebar. Yes, you can hide the sidebar. Off the top of my head, I can think of two ways of doing it. Neither of them offer a nice cosy admin panel option for it, but it's doable - and it will have a lot of side consequences to doing it.
That's great.  And I can't understand side consequences for that.  I don't have sidebars on our forum, and I read them just fine on my 17" and 24".  Maybe I'm missing something.
You're a programmer, you should understand better than most that these things rarely live in a vacuum, and that one thing often has a great many consequences.

But here's the other thing: many more people ask about putting a sidebar onto a forum, than ask about taking one off. You're the first person in 2.5 years to complain about the fact we have a sidebar. I'd argue we're doing a better job of catering to what people want than complying with every little whim that people ask us about.
Yes, I am a special case.  I, however, think you should have a sidebar at the left, and right, and horizontal bars at the top and bottom, if you want.  I think the admins should be able to configure their layouts how they want.  If you don't do this in core, that's fine, but it should be able to be done, like EzPortal does, with plugins.
But yes, just for you, I'm sure I could hack up a plugin that hides the sidebar, because I love hearing support requests.
Again, I'm missing something.  Why have I not heard a single complaint on our forum?
There is also a big difference between ignoring people and taking on board what they're saying but disagreeing. I hear your objections to the sidebar. I disagree, I have also explained why I disagree. It doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the fact you don't like the sidebar, but the thing is, we're not trying to build your perfect software. We're trying to build OUR perfect software, and that doesn't mean catering to your exact requests.
I get it.  And again, I like the sidebar personally.  I'm not objecting to the sidebar.  I'm pleading to make it hideable.  To justify a sidebar, you need content for the sidebar.  We don't want any extra content.  We want the forum body, and that's it -- which works fine on my current forum.
In SMF's case, they weren't particularly interested in what we had to say, despite being more than just community members. Nao worked on the single most popular SMF mod, plus contributed hundreds of bug reports. I wrote their bug tracker, spent months reviewing community mod submissions and did literally thousands of support topics, and both of us were almost on the SMF development team in one way or another. I'd say that would tend to qualify us for having some say in how things are run, yes?
Yes, I didn't mean to compare.  I'm not up to speed on everything yet with you guys and SMF.
(Also note that 2.1 is only just into alpha, with far less changes than we've made, and a new development team since 2.0 final was released. And even then, the 2.0 / 2.1 dev team has forked off into their own software. Because the team fundamentally is toxic, it continually pushes out the people who have the drive to actually do anything.)
I'm glad I'm looking to move from it....
Except you should understand (being a programmer), as I've alluded to, that it just isn't that simple.

So you hide the sidebar. You now have to process that decision on every page, in a way that you don't currently. We also need to rewrite everywhere that pushes content into the sidebar, to now not push it into the sidebar, which means we have to find somewhere else to put it. Which in half the cases is also going to mean writing new templates for them to now be horizontally arranged rather than vertically stacked, or just simply not performing the queries for it in the first place.

This also means that the plugins that already exist which use the sidebar (several come to mind) will all need to be heavily modified to do all the same logic, turning one into two or even three states (on/sidebar, on/elsewhere, off). All because you want an option to turn something off.

That's what I mean about consequences - to you, it's one line of HTML, to us it's at least a day's work, and frankly, I've got far more important things to be doing for Wedge's benefit like finishing the things that I've started.
I guess I'm thinking of it from a Drupal mindest -- and I'm not familiar with the architecture you're working with, so I concede that.
Not in the core. It's not impossible to do, though. But we find it makes the central content far too narrow, which is why we don't do it.