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[FAQ] Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?

Arantor

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[FAQ] Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« on January 19th, 2011, 12:11 PM »
This is a very tough question to answer. Certainly there are a lot of features in Wedge that many will not use - not every forum owner wants to have a blog system built in, for example. Nor the calendar, nor <insert feature here>

But big features like that - like blogging support, like the gallery, like the calendar - these are features we have in the core so that we can maintain them. All too often mods get neglected over time - having them in the core means they don't get forgotten about.

The calendar is a particularly odd example: many SMF users didn't want the calendar in the core, it being a feature they didn't use. But there is another group of people who would actually go elsewhere if the calendar were removed/left to be neglected. These people love having it available and want it to be more powerful than it was.

So the approach we've gone for is that we've added these features in, but in a way that we hope doesn't make it feel too big or scary - and kept the performance aspect too.


Interesting parallel, really, is Microsoft Word. Word adds new features every release, and while some consider it bloaty, the bottom line is that any user might only use 10% of its features - but if each user uses a different 10%, it caters to a lot more people as a result - and this is something we've tried to keep in mind.

We're not going to add every little thing we've thought of - and there are plenty of things we've rejected from being in the core for just that reason. But the goal we have is to make it easier to make them as add-ons that 'just work' and require little maintenance over time.

What will likely happen is that once the core is stable and the ability to expand it through add-ons is mature enough, I'll start turning some of the 'would be nice to have, but not in core' things into add-ons, but we'll see how that turns out - it really requires the core to be mature enough to achieve that first.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #16, on May 22nd, 2011, 04:16 PM »
Quote from Sergeant on May 22nd, 2011, 01:28 PM
My first post here, and I am already impressed by the amount of work that has already been done to improve on SMF. Personally I have used SMF for about 6 years, with each version release I am frustrated by the lack of excitement from new features, functionality etc - I end up questioning whether the upgrade time I had spent testing/implementing was really worth it.
Probably not.
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In my opinion, you can never have too many features and so I'm feeling really positive about Wedge being packed full of them! My only hesitation with 'featured' apps is that features get neglected, so long as each piece of functionality is kept up to date, I suspect that Wedge will be the most popular PHP forum on the net!
Well I don't know, some features don't need being updated -- if they work, there's no need to update them "just to show people that they're not abandoned". I finished Kyodai Mahjongg 5 years ago because it didn't need any extra features IMO -- I didn't just "abandon" it. I was simply done. People are still playing it... :^^;:

Aeva Media still needed some work, so I didn't abandon it -- I just moved it to the Wedge platform, because I was certainly no longer going to work for the benefit of the SMF platform after all the time I wasted helping it.
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Having read the background behind the formation of Wedge, I'm rather disappointed with the SMF team for kicking out two guys (even if Nao can be a controversial character :D)
Controversy is when you have shock value innit? I don't have any shock value. I just lack patience with jerks.
The reason why they kicked me out is because I started going public about what most people knew -- that vblamer45 was a real talent-less money-hungry jerk. I think there's some kind of understanding among the SMF team that he's untouchable or something. Every time someone wanted him to be kicked out of the team, they got kicked instead. I have to say -- such consideration for a jerk is impressive. Not commendable, but impressive.

Anyway -- in these situations, the only things you can do are to either just give up, or do your own thing by yourself. I was lucky enough to have Pete join me on this endeavor.
As for the flame wars that made my name -- again, not controversial at all. I'm just making my points against jerks, be they nazi sympathizers or plain, simple clueless nincopoomps. Just because I care about freedom of speech, doesn't mean I will let people say stupid things without any reaction.
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that have clearly contributed massively to the codebase and evolution of SMF - I wonder whether their v2.0 Final will be rejoiced, or rejected by their fanbase.
Oh, I'm pretty sure it'll be well received, if only because they're doing their best to prevent anyone from discussing Wedge on their forums (even though it's fine to discuss XenForo for instance.) But most 'professional reviews' will point out that it's 3 years late, and they'll probably hear about Wedge at one point or another.
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p.s. great domain name!!
It's easy to remember for sure. :D

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #17, on May 22nd, 2011, 05:01 PM »
I don't think 2.0 final will be as well received as everyone thinks, actually. I suspect it will be regarded with a degree of 'meh' because it doesn't add anything other than bug fixes.

Then, all the mod authors who swore they wouldn't update until 2.0 final... let's just say I don't expect a mass influx of mod authors scrabbling to update for 2.0 final; those who cared, already did so, those who were going to wait were expecting it last year at the latest, most of whom have since moved on.


[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #19, on May 22nd, 2011, 05:31 PM »
The fact that final brings nothing new to the table is why I'm already 'meh' about it. Of course on the day it's release there will be a bunch of 'congrats' posts... but I'm stuck on congrats for what? I do by all means have a high level of respect for those behind the coding because simply put if it for you all/them my site(s) wouldn't be where they are now or maybe I'd be still struggling along damning vb to hell and back.

My main site is still running RC3 with the security patch and 2 other mods to deal with security. In a recent discussion about what are we doing when Final hits I pointed out that the only real reason to move to RC5 or Final is SD2.0... no other reason unless someone can point out something that I'm missing. I'm ata point where I could careless really about whether or not final ever gets released (well with the exception of the licence change which, which affects you guys to some degree).

Regardless of what I have read about 2.0 Final being close or at the end of the month, there is nothing that tickles me to have that eager/cant wait/curious kind of feeling. I went from RC1.2 - RC2/3 only because it made sense and it moved to RC3 only a week or 2 before RC4 and cant see the benefit to moving to RC4or5 right now let alone final. As it stand every mod I use work and provide the functionality I seek... if SD 2.0 would work on RC3 even then I'd have less reason to upgrade.... so in short unless there are security fixes I really need to be concerned about in Final, I'll be on RC3 until SD2.0 is out and after that I stay where I am until/unless something better comes along.

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #20, on May 22nd, 2011, 05:42 PM »
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Of course on the day it's release there will be a bunch of 'congrats' posts... but I'm stuck on congrats for what?
Exactly. SimpleDesk 2.0 will be out around the same sort of time, but that at least deserves some congrats because of the 12k lines of code added since the first release.
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I pointed out that the only real reason to move to RC5 or Final is SD2.0...
Having just spent several hours doing a manual upgrade from RC3 to RC5 because I was stupid enough not to package *everything* as mods, I can say that the bug fixes weren't enough of a reason to move, because we never encountered half the bugs that cropped up. The only reason I made the move is because I had to for SimpleDesk.
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no other reason unless someone can point out something that I'm missing.
The main one is bug fixes. The security change in RC5 was backported to the security patch which runs on RC3 with emulation, so you're not missing anything there.

The one that may come into play more in time is the integration hooks; they were all added after RC3, and without someone packaging those, you're SOL[1] without an upgrade to at least RC4 - and because of the way hooks have been implemented and changed between RC4, RC5 and final, you may find you have to upgrade to fix mod issues with the hooks.
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I went from RC1.2 - RC2/3 only because it made sense and it moved to RC3 only a week
It's interesting how mods drive things at times; the only reason I moved one site to RC1.2 in the first place from 1.1.9 is because of Project Tools, and it's funny how I'm only moving that same site to RC5 because of another mod, being used in much the same way...
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if SD 2.0 would work on RC3 even then I'd have less reason to upgrade
I weighed that up, the hassle of support issues for file edits vs pushing people to a later version; it was a no-brainer from my perspective.
 1. I should use this more often.

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #21, on May 22nd, 2011, 06:05 PM »
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Exactly. SimpleDesk 2.0 will be out around the same sort of time, but that at least deserves some congrats because of the 12k lines of code added since the first release.
I can attest to that being able to play with them first hand... and that's the kind of thing that should drive excitement not a version change saying I found some bugs and fixed (though you may not have been aware of the bugs).. I doubt many if any of the bug fixes affect my site, so I never noticed and I dont get too many reports of oddities from my members.
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The main one is bug fixes. The security change in RC5 was backported to the security patch which runs on RC3 with emulation, so you're not missing anything there.

The one that may come into play more in time is the integration hooks; they were all added after RC3, and without someone packaging those, you're SOL[1] without an upgrade to at least RC4 - and because of the way hooks have been implemented and changed between RC4, RC5 and final, you may find you have to upgrade to fix mod issues with the hooks.
I completely suck a coding anything but I actually pay attention to what I'm taught and I'm prone to follow a certain amount of logic at times... I keep a copy of all working mods on my PC I check them with emulation when a new RC is released, if they work fine.. if not I seek the changes a make a new mod package for myself, which is why so far even the bits about hooks havent affected me in anyway so far...
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It's interesting how mods drive things at times; the only reason I moved one site to RC1.2 in the first place from 1.1.9 is because of Project Tools, and it's funny how I'm only moving that same site to RC5 because of another mod, being used in much the same way...
In some cases major feature will be more of the driving force than anything as to whether to upgrade or not. I wouldn't sacrifice the security of my site for anything minor but If I need to dump a major feature that will certainly delay upgrading most likely. I would even admin that SD was the reason to move to RC3 though it installed fine on RC2 with emulation when it was released but just in case anything went awry I'd rather be using the version it supports.



[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #22, on May 22nd, 2011, 06:16 PM »
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I doubt many if any of the bug fixes affect my site, so I never noticed and I dont get too many reports of oddities from my members.
Most people would never notice most of the bugs.
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I completely suck a coding anything but I actually pay attention to what I'm taught and I'm prone to follow a certain amount of logic at times...
If only I were so methodical... oh well!
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In some cases major feature will be more of the driving force than anything as to whether to upgrade or not.
It's a combination of 'if it isn't broken, don't fix it' and the fact that mods push boundaries that the core doesn't.
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I would even admin that SD was the reason to move to RC3 though it installed fine on RC2 with emulation when it was released but just in case anything went awry I'd rather be using the version it supports.
SD 1.0 was written pretty much against RC2 anyway, with minor layout changes only for RC3 and future compatibility where cat_bar and title_bar are used, nothing more.

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #23, on May 22nd, 2011, 06:21 PM »
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If only I were so methodical... oh well!
And to think, much of that was from your advice :P

It just works better for me that way anyway... I get to completely ruin a local tester if needed until it works properly then I go live with it.


[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #25, on May 23rd, 2011, 02:05 AM »
My site is also on RC3 and I don't intend to upgrade because everything works flawlessly. Maybe if I'm bored enough to fire Cushing I'll diff in the new hooks so I can install SD. And EP, if I ever finish it. :P

Oh, speaking of the helpdesk, would a plugin be able to sufficiently transform a department into something resembling a tracker by customizing the ticket statuses and renaming the $txt variables much like Nao did for here?

[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #26, on May 23rd, 2011, 03:18 AM »
Should be sufficient as/is IMO, there is an open issue regarding additional statuses maybe state the statuses you'd like to have... it may or may not make it in... There's no colour coding though because of the way the tickets are already presented in blocks.... but I'm sure you could tweak that if you wanted ;)


[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #28, on May 23rd, 2011, 03:57 AM »
New, resolved already exist
Closed and On-hold will be added.
Confirmed, you'd have to convince Arantor to add :P

In theory custom fields (categories) can be used to achieve this as well.


[FAQ] Re: Why are there so many features? / Isn't that bloated?
« Reply #29, on June 2nd, 2011, 07:26 PM »Last edited on June 2nd, 2011, 07:34 PM by ~DS~
Quote from spoogs on May 23rd, 2011, 03:57 AM
New, resolved already exist
Closed and On-hold will be added.
Confirmed, you'd have to convince Arantor to add :P

In theory custom fields (categories) can be used to achieve this as well.
And it works well, not the best way but it's done nicely.

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