« SMF with a different name, huh?
My review of customer service on SMF
Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org »

Arantor

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #75, on May 3rd, 2013, 05:10 PM »
I don't care what the hidden links were about. I kind of object to posting links to hidden resources here if you're not going to explain what the link is about or why it is relevant. Had the links mentioned what they were talking about, at least two snide comments here would have been avoided.
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which predates your involvement in SMF in any way shape or form.
The posts were deleted in, what, 2011? xrunner's been around SMF - albeit quietly - longer than that.
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ummm... I'll point out one thing. The link emanuele pointed to was regarding the conversation ARANTOR and I were having. which predates your involvement in SMF in any way shape or form.

You're not the center of the world.
I wanted to quote the whole thing to answer the whole point. Us mere mortals here have no context. To us it just appeared to be a link discussing this matter - because we have no other context to come to any other conclusion. xrunner's reaction is the same as mine on this one; it's a link to a hidden board, posted in the midst of an argument. Outside observers who cannot see the link would typically assume it is related directly to the matter at hand, not a smaller side matter.

It's not being 'at the centre of the world', it's making an assumption based on a lack of evidence and not an unfair assumption given what context us mere mortals have. Don't be disingenuous.

I'm well aware how all the parties seem to see their respective positions, and you'll notice I haven't exactly gone all gung-ho on this because frankly it's a waste of time all around. It's fairly clear there is a two tier environment around sm.org, and there is a lot of speculation and conjecture as to why that might be, but what is clear are what the consequences are: that it is one rule for some people and one rule for everyone else.

I still not believe xrunner has gone any further 'overboard' than I have in the past and with a far greater level of rebuke than anything I'd seen myself. In short, I do believe this has been blown out of proportion, and that xrunner has a point. I won't defend it to its fullest extent, because while I believe he has a valid grievance, I don't believe it is entirely as bad as he has stated, but there IS a problem. (And it is a problem, as opposed to an aesthetic difference.)

The heart of it comes back to the point I have made time and again: why should people receive the answer to their question, if they're asking the wrong question?

How many times have I refused to answer someone's question because I don't believe that what they're doing is in the best interest of their community? This is, at its heart, no different, even if it is only an aesthetic matter. The correct question after "I have a problem" is "why is it a problem?" unless the problem by definition can be obviously and clearly seen to be a problem by its nature. Something not working as expected isn't necessarily a problem, it could be a matter of a difference of expectation between the user and the designer. (This has happened to me enough times, where a user is trying to use something in a way inconsistent with how it was designed to be used, and reported it as a bug when it is not.)
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

xrunner

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #76, on May 3rd, 2013, 07:52 PM »
Meanwhile, back at the ranch -
Quote from rimh101 on May 3rd, 2013, 07:21 PM
I loaded everything almost Avatars file, because I thing that I don't need to overwrite this. Unfortunately nothing helped, the space is still in that parentheses
He reloaded all the SMF files and directories and the spaces are still there. >:(

Will rimh101 ever get rid of those spaces?

Will Drunken Clam get into trouble for posting in the thread?

Will xrunner ever question another user why they want something fixed?

Stay tuned for answers to those and other questions in further episodes of "As the Parenthesis Turns" ...
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Arantor

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Drunken Clam

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Kindred

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #79, on May 3rd, 2013, 09:03 PM »
lol... I know arantor - but, IIRC, his problem was that the parens ended up being uneven (space on one side, not on the other)  I was asking him if it went back to being even...  (and I just realized that wasn't clear.. oops... *runs back to smf to correct the post)

xrunner

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #80, on May 3rd, 2013, 09:14 PM »Last edited on May 3rd, 2013, 09:23 PM
Quote from Kindred on May 3rd, 2013, 09:03 PM
lol... I know arantor - but, IIRC, his problem was that the parens ended up being uneven (space on one side, not on the other)  I was asking him if it went back to being even...  (and I just realized that wasn't clear.. oops... *runs back to smf to correct the post)
Kindred - he's got two issues going on.

1. He doesn't want the spaces on either side on this line --> Latest Post: "Re: Adk Blog (New versio..." ( Today at 12:31:33 PM )

^^^ My forum is operating OK and has these spaces, so reloading won't fix that.

2. He's got one space here at the beginning paren. he doesn't want --> Most Online Today: 39. Most Online Ever: 77 ( February 11, 2012, 14:15:19 PM)


^^^ My forum is operating OK and DOESN"T have that first space. Isn't the re-loading of his forum supposed to only address the last space issue? It can't fix the first one because that's the design. And it won't make even spaces on the second problem because the default is no spaces (like my forum).

You seemed to think it would make all spaces come back "
Quote from Kindred on May 3rd, 2013, 08:53 PM
now - do note: this will reset your files to the default, which means that ALL SPACES WILL BE BACK.
Even the SMF forum doesn't have spaces in the Most Online Today line ... so all spaces will not "come back"

I'm spaced out myself now.

Reference his complaint here -
Quote from rimh101 on April 27th, 2013, 02:12 PM
@Storman™

I don't understand what exactly you mean, I wrote clearly and understanding where I have a problem on my forum, first post  is about:

Latest Post: "Re: Adk Blog (New versio..." ( Today at 12:31:33 PM )

So how you see, here is something different, but I have a problem with that:

Most Online Today: 39. Most Online Ever: 77 ( February 11, 2012, 14:15:19 PM)

Do you understand?
Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #81, on May 8th, 2013, 11:03 PM »
Oh my.

I see the parenthesis thread isn't dead yet. He;s stillnot satisfied.

I see Arantor can tell the dude he's a waste of time (which I agree with), but I get kicked in the balls by a staff member for asking him why it was a problem. :lol:

Hahahahaha. It's like I have another comedy channel to tune into now.

Arantor

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #82, on May 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM »
That's the thing, though... yes, I said there was a waste of time but my choice of wording was very careful. You can draw the conclusion that it's an insult. You can also draw the conclusion it is a statement of fact because I didn't outright say *he* was a waste of time. Merely that even when it was explained 'it was proven to be...' because it was, all the effort has largely been a waste of everybody's time.

Ambiguity is very important ;)

xrunner

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #83, on May 8th, 2013, 11:13 PM »
Quote from Arantor on May 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM
That's the thing, though... yes, I said there was a waste of time but my choice of wording was very careful. You can draw the conclusion that it's an insult. You can also draw the conclusion it is a statement of fact because I didn't outright say *he* was a waste of time. Merely that even when it was explained 'it was proven to be...' because it was, all the effort has largely been a waste of everybody's time.

Ambiguity is very important ;)
LOL. I need to be more clever in my methods of insults. I can do it, for sure. But I've been too pissed off at that group to even post there anymore, and over the last few days I've not really missed it. I doubt I'll ever do a lot there anymore. I don't really need help anymore, and I don't plan on changing my forum until I switch over to this project.

You know, I asked K@ to show me the rules that apply to people responding to members seeking help, and he never could point me to any. Funny ha ha.

Arantor

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #84, on May 8th, 2013, 11:20 PM »
That's the greatest matter of issue for sm.org; there actually aren't any rules anywhere, it's simply 'don't be a jerk' for any given judgement of jerkness. Which is where half the problems begin.

xrunner

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #85, on May 8th, 2013, 11:28 PM »
Quote from Arantor on May 8th, 2013, 11:20 PM
That's the greatest matter of issue for sm.org; there actually aren't any rules anywhere, it's simply 'don't be a jerk' for any given judgement of jerkness. Which is where half the problems begin.
Exactly. As I have been told, it's all a matter of "perception". Somebody "perceived" I was being too forceful, yet another "perceived" a joke about the whole thread was fine after I reported it (that's what I was told), and yet another "perceives" it's OK for you to say "it has proven to be a fantastic waste of time".

But if I "perceive" I want to find out why a fucking space after a parenthesis is a big deal, well that's completely insane. I'm a total asshole. I'm damn near worthy of being banned for that.

Well you know what I perceive? The way things are done there is idiotic. Oh, and everyone's opinion is valid (except when a moderator perceives it isn't).

Now - bring on the trolls (you know whop you are)!

Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #86, on May 9th, 2013, 04:39 PM »
I just finished sending a PM about my situation. In response to the typical mushy "we're just human" sort of cold oatmeal they're feeding me, the PM involved explaining to the staff recipient what forum rules are for and why they would have prevented problems like mine. I'm not kidding. I'm explaining rules to a staff member at SMF. If anyone's interested I'll post relevant parts of what I said only.

The only post approaching any sort of rules for the SMF forum as a whole that I could find is this thread -

Forum Etiquette and behavior

It's locked so I can't get a proper quote link. It was last modified in 2006. It unfortunately has a lot of off-topic chitter chatter but here's a few gems -

Jeff Lewis:
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As a general rule of thumb do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you are typing up a response you feel is clever and spiteful, rethink your post.
and
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Some people may take a comment to be nothing much but others may take it very personally. People need to be aware of these differences and respect that we're not at all the same.
All those two declarations get you is everyone can post what they want to, as long as you feel you are doing unto others as you want them to do unto you. That's entirely subjective. And the statement "People need to be aware of these differences and respect that we're not at all the same" basically is an out for pretty much anything you want to say because "we're not all the same". If one of the guidelines for the forum is "we're not all the same", no one can be judged.

Here's a real gem -

Joshua Dickerson:
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Each board has its own rules.
Really? REALLY? No, not really Joshua. Each board may have it's own subjective judgement calls by staff, but no, there are no "rules" for each board.

Oh and I always like to close with Mr. Runic's famous "Everyone's opinion is valid"

Ha ha ha. That one kills me.

Arantor

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #87, on May 9th, 2013, 04:53 PM »
I will reserve my comments about Joshua for another venue. (Suffice to say I consider him in much the same league as I do Labradoodle, that should tell you everything you need to know)

The biggest problem with sm.org is that the rules are unspoken and vague and not consistently employed as a result.

The 'mushy' 'we're all human' is true. We are all human, we do interpret different things in different ways, but having some guidance on what is appropriate behaviour and what is not would go a long way. It'd probably even curb my temper at times. The problem is that having rules is perceived as though it would curb creativity and people having their say, and that's historically been a huge problem with sm.org as a whole - and to me, it's one reason why things aren't working, consistently and thoroughly across the board.
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Each board may have it's own subjective judgement calls by staff, but no, there are no "rules" for each board.
^^ This. You'll find the install and upgrade board is friendlier because the grumpier folks don't go there. It's mostly a conscious decision not to so that newbies aren't put off immediately ;)

There is an unspoken set of rules for each board. Some have a more explicit 'we'd like you to post xyz' but it never really works out.

And Runic is right, everyone's opinion IS valid. It may be based on incomplete or incorrect facts but it is a valid opinion nonetheless. The problem is that there are those who shout down valid opinions for apparent invalidity.

emanuele

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Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #88, on May 9th, 2013, 05:31 PM »
This is the closest thing to a rule you may find:
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/values.php
http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/User:AngelinaBelle/SMF_team_manual (mostly outdated but should be still sort of valid)
and I wouldn't have (and want) anything more than that to define the acceptable behaviour of a person in an environment (heck I've never found rules on how to behave when I enter a pub, I just use my brain and my common sense).

If I may express my opinion [1]:
1) you were in the wrong discussion for deciding what is a problem with SMF and what not (the correct topic was the one opened by rimh101 in bug reports, every other topic is mostly related to personal preferences unless is spotted by someone that will actually *do* something in relation to SMF).
2) if you are so picky to nitpick on the words usage you may first notice if the person you are nitpicking is writing an English that is prone to be nitpicked (do note that rimh101's English is not perfect, so maybe the word "problem" has two different meanings for him and for you).

That said I'm t interested in debating more than this, so do not expect any answer from me on this topic any more (I may, but it would just be a lucky event if I do).

Also: do not waste time nitpicking my English, I'm not a native English speaker and I learned it in a quite advanced age, so it's far from good.
 1. and it is my own personal opinion, I don't care if it is valid or not for you or anyone else as long as it is valid for me

xrunner

  • Posts: 192
Re: My review of customer service on SMF
« Reply #89, on May 9th, 2013, 05:36 PM »
Quote from emanuele on May 9th, 2013, 05:31 PM
That said I'm t interested in debating more than this, so do not expect any answer from me on this topic any more (I may, but it would just be a lucky event if I do).
Oh golly. That's really something there emanuele. Really brave of you.

So we get a statement from on-high and then "Dear little xrunner, you should be honored that my presence has graced this thread. I will now return to my palace to rule over the other little people".

You know what? You can't handle the truth.

« SMF with a different name, huh?
Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org »