Excuse me while I vomit.......

snoopy-virtual

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #15, on June 13th, 2011, 01:12 AM »
Quote from Arantor on June 13th, 2011, 12:17 AM
It started out that way but it's become clear over time that it's going to be so much more than simply a better version of the code. There's whole new ideas being introduced, not so subtle changes of mindset.
I know. I was trying to put more emphasis on the idea that for me Wedge is not a competitor of SMF, the same as for example Windows 7 is not a competitor of Windows 98. Just a lot better software that started from the same point.

Arantor

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #16, on June 13th, 2011, 01:16 AM »
Yes, but the evolution that brought Microsoft to the point of Windows 7 also came out of changing of mindsets - notice that, for instance, we don't have a bar of icons+text with a bar representing each application... W7 wasn't just gloss on top of an existing mindset, it moved the goal posts from the previous 15 years of Microsoft development. I want us to move the goal posts from the last 6 years of SMF development.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

snoopy-virtual

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #17, on June 13th, 2011, 02:04 AM »
Totally agree. That's why I wrote 98 and 7 in the example. Both OS are coming from the same place but they are very different because they have changed a lot of the ideas (goal posts). If I had put Vista and 7 in the example it wouldn't have been the same, as they only sorted there all the things they have being doing wrong in Vista (bugs) and only a few new ideas really.

But W7 is not a competitor of W98. It's just a lot better system (an upgrade).

If for example I tell you that I prefer Ubuntu to any Windows OS (as I do) then I am talking about a competitor.

Anyway I suppose I should have forgotten already about it, but I cannot stop thinking about the time when they told me to erase the link to Wedge from my signature in SMF because "it's not legal to put links to competitors in your signature". ;)

busterone

  • Posts: 12
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #18, on June 13th, 2011, 05:15 AM »
I have to say a little too. I know I usually stay silent on the potentially controversial matters.  :eheh:
I see the same thing with the innocent users of SMF.  The userbase will remain strong no matter how great Wedge becomes, and unfortunately, the biggest majority of those forum owners have no concept of what happens behind the scenes, and most really wouldn't care if they did. They simply want their forums to work, and in the case of snoopy's mods(all mods actually), they want help in keeping the spammers out.  I look forward to seeing Wedge in operation myself, but I doubt I will ever completely leave SMF either. I have no ambition to be on the team, but I do want to help out on the support boards when I can, simply for the sake that there were those that helped me as a newbie, so I want to return the favor.  I see so many support questions that sit and get ignored, so I try to put myself in the their shoes and wonder how that makes them feel. Of course, there are a lot of them that I simply can't help on, so I do not post either.

In your case Arantor, I can fully understand and appreciate your stance. I don't know all the details, but don't need to. I saw enough to know that I would be pissed as well if it were me. 

Arantor

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #19, on June 13th, 2011, 08:38 AM »
Let me just add one thing into the equation.

There are a large number of requests that occur regularly, whose cause is simply the consequence of not fixing issues in the design.

Now, there are three things you can do in such a case:
1) Answer people when they ask about it
2) Create documentation so the question is answered once, authoritatively, and direct people to that answer
3) Refine the design so it doesn't need to be explained again

SMF's answer is invariably 1 and occasionally 2, and it's better now that there is the wiki but it doesn't solve the problem, it solves the symptoms - it answers the question, rather than trying to eliminate the need for the question to even be asked in the first place.

For example, Who's Online. How often does the question get asked about that, when admins see people accessing things they're not supposed to, and they start panicking that SMF is broken? Solution 1 happens consistently, solution 2 hasn't happened yet as far as I know, and I implemented solution 3 - if the user got an error, that fact is logged. If they were asked to log in, that fact is logged as well.[1]

Maybe there will still be a question about it but I can guarantee I won't get the same number of questions that would normally come up - because I've taken the time to observe that there is a problem and the time to do something about it.

Another example is the Member Options in Themes configuration. How confusing is that? I haven't yet decided how to approach solving it but I know that breezing over it with a lick of paint as happened between SMF 1.1 and 2.0 isn't the answer. It's beyond unintuitive, and again solution 1 is common, solution 2 is not yet happening thoroughly.

Consider that when helping people, that the team have taken the view that it's better to answer peoples' questions and write documentation than it is to actually solve the problems that emerge. Honestly, it's like a doctor that is only too happy to prescribe painkillers to treat a pain than to investigate what's causing the pain and prescribing treatment for that.

In the discussion that occurred about removing the manual in 2.0 RC5, there were a lot of naysayers about it, and some people pointed out that if the UI were better designed, you wouldn't need a manual. Thing is, that's largely true. People point to things like Google when they want to find a site with 'help' but the thing is, the help doesn't tell them how to do the fundamentals of using it, it tells them how to do clever things or answers questions that have cropped up. (Seriously: how many sites do you know that actively have documentation about how to register on them?)


The bottom line: if you need documentation to explain how the basics work, you really are doing it wrong.
 1. And just for fun, I'm going to do something useful with "Nothing, or nothing you can see." but I haven't decided how best to do it just yet.

EL34

  • Posts: 16
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #20, on June 13th, 2011, 10:18 PM »
Off Topic: I must give Snoop some props

I have the Httpbl mod installed on my forums and it has been awesome.
Along with Stop Spammer and the Anti Spam verification questions mod
I don't not have spammer registration issues at all anymore.

Looking around the forum here, have not run across any mention of Wedge using the Honey Pot?

Arantor

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #21, on June 14th, 2011, 12:33 AM »
No, it won't be using the honey pot out of the box but it should be fairly easy to port the honey pot mod (and not require patching for versions!)

There are some anti-spam methods in the core, though.

EL34

  • Posts: 16
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #22, on June 14th, 2011, 12:37 AM »
Excellent!

I don't use many mods, less than 5 probably
I would say that HttpBl and Stop Spammer are easily the most important and the ones I cannot do without.

Of Course Aeva lite is up there on my fav list also.
I noticed that my Dick Dale Wedge Youtube link properly embedded in another post.
Me likey   :eheh:

snoopy-virtual

  • Posts: 152
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #23, on June 14th, 2011, 12:42 AM »
As I have already said in a few places before, I don't think we will need to use any of the spammers databases (Project Honey Pot, Stop Forum Spam, Bot Scout, etc etc) here in Wedge.

Check inside the Features list inside the category "Security": http://wedge.org/pub/feats/security/

The security measures already build inside the core of Wedge by Arantor are so strong that I doubt very much any spammer will be able to pass them.

Of course I cannot be 100 % sure about it until we make a live test, so the first thing I will do, as soon as we get a first alpha version of Wedge ready for testing, will be to do a test forum and advertise it in a few spammers sites I know so I will get hundreds (or thousands) of spam-bots coming every day to that test forum trying to get into it.

I will create there a log system to be able to see what they manage to do and what they don't and then I will decide if (as I suspect) the security measures here are enough or if I need to import any of my anti-spam mods from SMF to here.

Of course we all know the spammers are always inventing new bots and looking for new ways of getting to us, so we will need to be also inventing new things as well. The good thing about it is there are already enough brilliant minds here thinking about all the possible problems we may find, so I think we are OK.  :eheh:

After saying that, you all know I enjoy very much doing plug-ins and mods and I will like to learn how to build good ones for Wedge, so I may anyway port mod httpBL for Wedge even if I decide we don't really need it just as a practice exercise to see more clear how Wedge plug-ins work.

We will see.  :eheh:

Arantor

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #24, on June 14th, 2011, 12:45 AM »
Well, Aeva Lite is already part of Wedge under the guise of Aeva Media fully...

I think the animated CAPTCHA will prove interesting - of course, it's just another tool in the arms race but it'll make a difference, I think!

The plugin interface I'm still building, still deciding a few things about that at the moment, but more on that in due course.

EL34

  • Posts: 16
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #25, on June 14th, 2011, 12:49 AM »Last edited on June 14th, 2011, 01:37 PM by EL34
Quote
Well, Aeva Lite is already part of Wedge under the guise of Aeva Media fully
Yes, I guess that's what I was trying to say, but not very well......
Aeva is already on board here and I like that very much.


Edit: I like the idea of ani captcha.
And you are right, it's just one more tool in the arms race.
It's great for bots, but the honey pot and stop spammer mod combine nicely and weed out situations like this:
A human spammer can still get past a captcha
A member may not be a spammer now but later on.....
Any number of other scenarios involving real humans.
Humans can change behavior at any time.

Had several forum members many years ago that joined, laid low for a while and then began causing trouble.

Arantor

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #26, on June 20th, 2011, 11:33 AM »
Only just noticed the edit :/

Anyway, yes, humans can and do get past the animated CAPTCHA, but add this fact to the calculation: when they're passed to the solving farms where people are paid to solve them, they're paid by the number solved. If it now takes longer to solve them, it erodes the value of doing it.

YogiBear

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #27, on June 20th, 2011, 10:52 PM »
Quote
...Had several forum members many years ago that joined, laid low for a while and then began causing trouble.
My term for them is 'sleepers'. As you say, EL, they lie low for a while then one morning you wake up to find...!

Verification Questions seems to be one of the most effective, and simplest, anti-spammer tools for the reasons Pete said.

EL34

  • Posts: 16
Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #28, on June 20th, 2011, 11:44 PM »
I have a verification mod installed on my forums that ask 5 questions

That stops bots but it's easy for a human to answer them.

These are the 3 mods I have installed on my forums and I find that each one is needed

Anti spam verification - stops bots but not humans
Stop Spammer - pre checks humans in a database
HttpBl - very important for humans and bots

It takes all 3 of those to keep my membership clean.

Eros

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Re: Excuse me while I vomit.......
« Reply #29, on June 21st, 2011, 01:42 AM »
Ya, human spammers are the only real problem I have as well and those can get past any reasonable level of verification. The only defense at that point, that is practical, is just having 24 hour coverage of moderators in various time zones so the SPAM gets removed in a timely fashion.
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