live627

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #60, on July 25th, 2011, 01:14 AM »
I replied to your request, you f**king asshole.[1]
Quote
I've been going 'round many mulberry bushes about this feature all because of somebody whose name I dare not bring up lest this get confused with what he want
So you come here crying for help like a baby just because Arantor pissed you off by saying no when you wanted him to implement that in Wedge. Sure, sure, bang your head against a desk!

I'm certainly NOT happy with you!
 1. I have quite the temper today. Just got over a blistering headache and stomache ache to boot. I foresee a warning coming to slap my ass there, too. IDC, really.
A confident man keeps quiet.whereas a frightened man keeps talking, hiding his fear.

Road Rash Jr.

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #61, on July 25th, 2011, 01:29 AM »
Quote from Bloc on July 25th, 2011, 01:26 AM
Quote from Road Rash on July 24th, 2011, 11:14 PM
Personally I like the original plan of you guys creating YOUR vision, what's important for the creativity is that it meets your needs and desires, not others.
Indeed, sometimes its easier to just say 'no' upfront. 

There always gonna be someone who wants Wedge to be something THEY want(heck, I am guilty of it too, trying to suggest stuff I consider good :P ) but in the end: follow your own goal, and see how it turns out. Only then can you adjust, if necessary - and only if you want to.
Well said Bloc  :cool:
Stick a FORK in it, it's done.
(Error 69) No Seniors Porn Found Here

Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #62, on July 25th, 2011, 06:33 AM »
Quote from Bloc on July 25th, 2011, 01:26 AM
Quote from Road Rash on July 24th, 2011, 11:14 PM
Personally I like the original plan of you guys creating YOUR vision, what's important for the creativity is that it meets your needs and desires, not others.
Indeed, sometimes its easier to just say 'no' upfront. 

There always gonna be someone who wants Wedge to be something THEY want(heck, I am guilty of it too, trying to suggest stuff I consider good :P ) but in the end: follow your own goal, and see how it turns out. Only then can you adjust, if necessary - and only if you want to.
It's like this: there are other boardware available but this is one that's in development, and there are whiz kids who think that only their idea is the best thing since sliced bread when it isn't (and in this case, "whiz" takes on both meanings). Either you write code that other people will like, or you write code that only you like. Take your pick.
I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible

Nao

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #63, on July 25th, 2011, 08:49 AM »
Can't we do both? :unsure:

Live> language to a lady! :P you may not care for what she asks for or demands or whatever, but manners please :P

Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #64, on July 25th, 2011, 10:50 AM »
Quote
It's like this: there are other boardware available but this is one that's in development, and there are whiz kids who think that only their idea is the best thing since sliced bread when it isn't (and in this case, "whiz" takes on both meanings).
"The pot calls the kettle black."
Attacking people for thinking their idea is best and then claiming yours are.
Quote
Either you write code that other people will like, or you write code that only you like. Take your pick.
Whatever someone makes, he/she makes it because he/she thinks it should be made that way.
This goes for everything, software, music, movies and so on.
It's impossible to make something everybody likes. But for anything ever made there are people that do like it.
Freedom of choice.

English isn't my native tongue, but I hope it's clear what I mean.

Nao

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #65, on July 25th, 2011, 11:03 AM »
Thing is, now that SMF2 is BSD, anyone (anyone!) can make their own SMF fork... They don't *have* to wait for Wedge if they want to implement something, or have someone implement it for them.
(Of course, if they want to build something upon Wedge itself, they'll have to wait for Wedge's license to become BSD itself. Or join our development team of course. When we have 'positions' to fill.)

Arantor

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #66, on July 25th, 2011, 03:24 PM »
Quote
Whatever someone makes, he/she makes it because he/she thinks it should be made that way.
This goes for everything, software, music, movies and so on.
This, in spades. Everything I've touched in the codebase is done so because that's how I think it should be made. Is that arrogant? Perhaps. Is it the right way? Possibly. But it is how I think it should work, and I'm prepared to back up my reasoning on everything, because I take the view that people are going to latch on to what we do and use and abuse it. That's life.

Because of that, because of the fact that people of smaller and larger minds than I and Nao will judge the work in the end, there are compromises being made - I'm more of the idealist in that I'm building it more for what I want it to be, not what others want it to be, and honestly I have no interest (and I'm prepared to vehemently defend this) in building features for a minority.

What has really pissed me off so much is that I asked a simple enough question, without any sense of obligation, of what feature someone would be interested in, with the specific proviso of 'assume I know nothing of this', and I've had three completely different features labelled under one banner. I can only conclude that the person making the request doesn't actually know what they want (because if they did, they wouldn't be in the current position of being unable to actually nail it down in a single definition that isn't really three different things under one banner), and when questioned on it, they have reacted defensively to it.

So let me reiterate in no uncertain terms.

* WP style trackback (i.e. a separate post that links to a pre-existing post and sends a form of auto-posted notification, to say 'hey, I linked to you, isn't that neat?' and for an automated notification of that fact to appear as a reply to the original post)

* Freedom of Moving Thoughts (the ability to have the same discussion in multiple places at once, flat threaded, so that if one copy is censored or tampered with, the discussion can continue elsewhere, with the extra benefit of spreading the discussion)

* Threaded views (the ability to have a single thread diverge off into multiple sub discussions, that can end up totally separate to the original source)


And this was labelled all under trackbacks. I was almost as frustrated with the feeling of demand as I was exasperated at the fact that I'd asked a simple enough question, specifically to judge what was being actually requested, especially as the private conversation I'd had on the subject just made it infinitely more confusing by mentioning different bits of each, leading me to believe that the person concerned just doesn't know what they want, other than features that they used before that won't even solve their problem from the sounds of it, even if they were implemented.[1]

As for the specific personal insults handed out in this thread, yes, there is an element of wolfpack about this. That's because we're two individuals working on it in the manner which we choose, unlike the expectation you seem to have that we are an organisation dedicated to serving your needs, which we're not.

The implication that I'm a whiz-kid who thinks my stuff is the best. Hardly. I have greater self confidence issues than most of you would ever realise, mostly because I'm so very good at hiding it. To be honest, watching Nao's code over the last year makes me feel rather inadequate because half of it I'd never have even thought of, and as for some of the rest, I suspect I could put a passable imitation together instead of what Nao coded.

As for the hint about not being able to work in a larger team... it depends on the team. If the team is disrespectful of the people in it, and have separate and hidden agendas, damn right I can't work in it. If the team has respect for each other, like the team I used to lead at a Fortune 500 company, it works incredibly well. But again, you're making the mistake of making this into something it's not. It's just two guys that have respect for each others' skills working on a common goal, nothing more. There's no bullshit, no hidden agenda, no backstabbing, no politics, other than what is brought here.
 1. Which is, if anything, even more reason for it not to be implemented. As ever, solve the PROBLEM not its SYMPTOMS.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Nao

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Dismal Shadow

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“I will stand on my ground as an atheist until your god shows up...If my irreligious bothers you much, and if you think everything I do is heresy to your god I don't care. Heresy is for those who believe, I don't. So, it isn't heresy at all!


   Jack in, Wedge,
   EXECUTE!

Arantor

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #69, on July 26th, 2011, 01:57 PM »
Everyone likes to receive compliments about themselves now and again, especially when they're deserved.

Nao

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #70, on July 26th, 2011, 02:18 PM »
Yup. We are little puppies who strive for their self esteem to survive in this wicked world!

That is why wedge is what it is today. Because we all did our best. :)

hartiberlin

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #71, on July 26th, 2011, 07:28 PM »
When do you think you will have the first public Wedge release out about ?

And when will you have a SMF2 to Wedge converter out about ?
Will this still be this year or only next year ?
or will this be faster out ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Nao

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #72, on July 26th, 2011, 07:51 PM »
Alpha target: late September. Personal target. Official target: none.
Beta target: before 2012.

Converter target: ask TE, the man in charge. I doubt it'll be available for alpha, since it won't be a stable release.

Final target: early 2012. The earlier the better. Because of the mod system rewrite, we should have a very short beta period.

As a reminder, I'm planning to make the alpha demo available in august. Admin demo not planned for now (Pete is in charge of the rewrite.)
Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #73, on July 28th, 2011, 12:03 PM »
So... I was wondering was Clara was no longer visiting, after getting us involved in so many discussions about the threaded view.

Here's what I found:
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=443757.0

So, basically, she went ahead and asked, with the same aplomb, the SMF team about it. They replied pretty much the same as us, in the same way. And she went even madder. Then someone indicated that someone else had posted how to build a threaded mode in SMF, then gave a link, upon which she kissed him for such a present, and then nothing...

Probably because by then, she had realized the link he gave was to the very post where *I* was describing the implementation I made, and the reasons why it didn't 'work' in an SMF environment.
Full circle eh. She could have just asked here about my code... ::)

Now she's "shopping for other software".
Well, good luck to you Clara. And remember, even if you have to pay for the software, they're not your bitches either. If you can't find it, build it yourself. This is exactly what WE did.

Arantor

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Re: Wedge and SMF directions
« Reply #74, on July 28th, 2011, 12:37 PM »
As mentioned elsewhere, there was an epilogue accusing me of misogyny and prejudice against her, followed by blazing hypocrisy on her part. It was pretty epic, actually.