I'm not interested in fighting with you, Pete... I don't even see a reason for you to be upset with me.
I've deliberately given it a few days to calm down somewhat. You'll notice that here was the only place I avoided over the last few days. I even released a mod on sm.org inspired by my commits to Wedge (and including a possible new minor enhancement depending on how well it works out), a clue to some people that I was *really* pissed off.
Err... I'm not sure, why you would go through the agony of re-using SMF's mod system when you went to great length to rewrite it all, and I don't see either in what way it's a clue as to your situation... What does it mean? That you want to dump Wedge, and join the SMF dev team or something..? Would seem like a huge step backwards, wouldn't it..?
* Criticising me for missing a comma in the CSS files and being snarky that I didn't catch it at commit time when you've done similar and worse things in the past. Almost like you'd committed stuff without even testing it once first.
We all do that from time to time... What matters is that it's caught, isn't it..? I was mainly thinking, that if it works it's only due to Wess being relatively cool with commas, but other than that I'm unsure whether you committed this as a last-minute change while documenting the changelog (like I often do -- and this is where most of my bugs come from, even though I've become increasingly tough with myself at these particular times...), or if you simply didn't catch it at dev time, and 'it worked', so you didn't have to bother...
Also, you know me better than that. 'Criticizing' is a bit of harsh to qualify my comments... No?
As a result, adding new features stopped being fun some time ago.
That's for you to solve, not me...
The reason why Wedge's development has gone with very few hiccups in the last three years, is that quite early on we individually chose to focus on different things. You went for the long-term 'wow' factor that new big features represent (I, myself, feel that my work on Aeva Media is enough to justify my contribution to the feature department :P
), while I went for the 'immediate' wow factor that is the design, layout, and bandwidth savings that contribute to making a website load faster, and being more efficient altogether.
BOTH of these areas are crucial to make Wedge a success, really... So, we need to both be at the top of our game. And when I'm touching an area in the admin section that I'm not too sure about, I always consult with you beforehand, because I don't want to add any difficulties for you. On my side, though, developing CSS and JS is something that's going to be done by external developers as well, so (1) Wess & co. need to be as flexible as possible (so I don't mind you doing things differently, as it helps me see how others might 'exploit' Wess in interesting ways), and (2) as the Wedge source code will be the primary source of inspiration to themers and plugin authors, we need it to be clean and tight, and a 'good example' of how to do things correctly, so with regards to (1), if I find anything in your CSS that can be improved upon, I will. And I'm absolutely expecting you to do the same with my code, really... Even CSS! If you feel like it's going to be better if I do something one way rather than the other, regardless of how many bytes it takes, fine by me; my only real concern, really, is to prevent Wedge from being bloated. That is why, whenever I add a new feature, I try to 'compensate' for it by optimizing elsewhere (or in the same place), like I did with thoughts today. (It saves bytes everywhere -- JS, CSS and HTML, cached or not.)
It does seem like a no-brainer to me... We both respect each other (at least I hope so, because that would be a huge waste of three years for one of us if it wasn't the case, right..?), and we work in different areas because we do what we're best at (and, for an unpaid job, what we enjoy the most really), and Wedge is a huge enough codebase to justify working on different areas, anyway... We can't do everything, or at least not everything right...
For a while, pretty much everything I've added has been because I believe it's necessary for Wedge to be able to compete with other platforms, not because I'm enjoying the process.
Another difference of opinion between us...
I think you're an absolute genius at adding 'natural' features to a forum platform; taking things apart, and saying "this is how it should be done, not how it's been done the last 15 years everywhere else..." If I did the same, it would be potentially shocking because over the years, I've made some pretty... 'interesting', and 'scary' designs for a default theme, but really I threw them all away because I'm trying to appeal to everyone, and those who are used to how SMF does things, should also be accounted for. Admin area is different, because it only concerns one person, the admin, and you've been working hard to make it fun for them to use, anyway.
The difference in opinions stems from the fact that I believe, as a couple of geeks who've been spending all our time on a crazy project for nearly three years, we're entitled to do *what we want*, rather than *what we think others want*. Sure, a large part of our work should be catered to doing things with other users in mind, but it's also an opportunity to just have fun with complex problems, and elegant solutions.
Plus, it makes for a happier Nao, and a happier Arantor. And when we're happy, we're likely to keep working on it.
Never put anyone else's comfort before yours. Unless they frigging pay you for it.
As I suggested on the thoughts previously, if I'm going to spend x time writing it and you spend y time rewriting it, we might both save some time if you just spend something like (x+y)/2 time writing it correctly the first time.
Have you ever seen me revert a change of yours (perhaps a minor one at worst!), or rewrite something of yours significantly..?
No, because I don't tend to touch your code, I only double-check it when you commit it, and as we discussed before, I like adding my 'touch' on it, and you told me you didn't mind, so I just kept doing it, because I'll never change something significantly without consulting with you first. Really, I'm surprising you're saying that of me... :-/
Anyway, yes, feel free to commit your CSS and JS "unoptimized", and I'll do it for you. Because do you know one of the things I enjoy the most out of my code..? Yes, fucking saving fucking bytes. I just love it. That's why I count them. That's also why I don't mind when suddenly the filesize grows by a kilobyte or two (like it did when we merged Dragooon's notification system): because it's a new challenge for me, to make it even smaller...! I just love that. That, and making sure that it still works efficiently, and doesn't add any bloat anywhere. (For instance, in the last commit, I removed a couple of lines of CSS that were unneeded, as well as an equally unneeded wetem::load; and believe me, even though it took me far more minutes to check these than the savings deserved, it really made me happy, on the spot. And that's what matters. Keep a Nao happy, and you get your Wedge going.)
In any case, premature optimisation is the devil's work for idle hands.
It's not so premature, considering we're way closer to a public release than to the first days, eh..?
Once it's out in the public, I won't be able to do CSS and template changes in a, hmm... in a way that's so inconsequent, as I'll have to take plugins and skins into account, and whether or not I'm going to break something, and whether it's worth it.... So, yeah, I'm optimizing now, because I like it, and because I know it'll be harder to do it later on. So, it's "just-in-time optimizing", if you want ;)
The best example I have is the menu icons - they are pretty well optimised, and don't get me wrong, that's an achievement in itself. However, it doesn't matter that mods adding menu icons is a completely fucked up process that's entirely skin dependent (meaning mods just won't *bother*) and even when I've asked in the past about improving that, it's gone unnoticed.
Perhaps I missed your post, simply...? I don't see in what way it's so hard to add menu icons, really..?
If you want to be able to add them from plugin CSS, then I can certainly move my button classes to common.css so that they benefit from them, but it's not that big a deal really, as they can simply re-use the same CSS, I'd say..? They can even do dynamic functions, at least that's what it was built to do...
(Oh, and speaking of dynamic functions, I spent a few minutes optimizing the smiley one, this morning... It saves a dozen bytes. It may not seem much, but considering I only changed the file loading order and nothing else, it's a nice improvement. I may even get more out of it by sorting the files by name, but I don't think it's worth the research, at least not today...)
The menu changes I made would *break* every time with buttons that weren't part of the main skin declaration. Which was any plugin that added any button to the menu. Even when I cleared the cache after the plugin was installed.
I don't remember that issue...
* The hypocrisy that goes on around here. You complain that no-one answers your threads and provides opinions, you complain that I don't answer your questions - but that's *exactly* what happens with you and my threads.
Yes, you can blame me for expecting more of you in that respect than I'm doing myself. Why so..? Because to me, it seems like you're able to do so many different things at the same time, when I'm struggling to just keep up with balancing between real life, and Wedge life.
So, yes, I've skipped a lot of topics, and I kept doing so, because you told me it was okay, and that you'd tell me whenever you'd need my opinion (by PM or whatever). Recently, we added notifications for that, but I'm not 'done' with them yet, and I'm not even used to checking it constantly... But I've planned to them to be a life-changer for me, regarding how it influences my way to follow the forum, I'd say...
Also, while sometimes I'm bumping my posts and fishing for opinions, I'm not just asking for yours in particular... I also value very fondly the opinions of our consultants, but also those of anyone who has anything to say on a given subject, and takes time to do it. It's just that, sometimes, people seem to think that conversations are 'just' between you and me, and they can't intervene... Which, if you'll allow me, is a bit silly...
You even admitted it yourself that you're *pages* behind in some of the topics that are pretty important.
24 pages of unread topics, yeah...
You'd have noticed, if you'd read them, that with the features I'm trying to write, I'm having trouble doing it, not on a technical basis but where it's actively screwing me up, and then you start criticising me for what I did manage to commit, which was specifically done for YOUR benefit, not mine.
But where did I criticize your work in a way that came to upset you that much...?
Heck, you know I'm just as insecure as you are... You know I admire your work, and you know that I don't know I could do a tenth of what you've been doing for Wedge. Just as I know that you consider me to be 'the best man' to work on JS/CSS/HTML, and keeping up with new technologies, and things like that... (Hopefully!!)
I'm not shocked whenever someone says they don't like this or that in my work... In fact, it usually means it can be done better: either by rewriting, or by actually explaining why it's better... Sometimes, people just need a little convincing! And if you have it in you, it's very easy, really, to convince them. Otherwise, maybe it really has a problem, so... Time well spent, either way!
All you've managed to do is make me feel like my commits are perpetually substandard,
Which, of course, they aren't...
and that I shouldn't ever commit anything again unless it's a completed feature, fully tested, over optimised and so on, without any WIP or partial bits like I've done in the past.
If you're so uncomfortable with this, are you sure you ever want to go public..? :-/
You need to assert your capabilities. You did get your Zend certification, after all, something I'm not sure I'm even capable of getting (hence why I'm not even looking into trying), and your knowledge of programming is vast, but it's still tiny compared to how well you know what you do in general. You always have the last word, because you have things to bring to the table, and you know better. Some people hate you for that, but most love you for it. And I'm just surprised to see that, in contrast with your immensely wider knowledge than any of us in here, you're still uncomfortable with details that people are giving you in response to your commits. To give you an image -- it's as if you'd started painting the Mona Lisa, were close to finishing it, and then suddenly decided to throw it away because your pigment assistant said he would have chosen a dark grey over your light black to represent this tree in the shadows. Not even considering the fact that he may or may not be right about it, it's a tiny detail, and is due to the fact that he doesn't like praising his boss for nothing and make him think that it's just a way to keep his position... No. That assistant genuinely likes the work, and his specialty is pigments, so he's just giving his opinion on this minor thing because, well, it can still be changed, and if he managed to get one of his ideas into the painting, he would be proud to be associated with it...
That's the general idea, yes. While we're not working on the Mona Lisa of boards (but not far from it, though ;)
), we're still very proud of our own work, and aware of our talent, and still fragile when it comes to criticism. But it doesn't mean we should engage in battles like the one you seemingly want to jump into. No, Pete, I won't fight with you. If you want me to apologize for hurting your feelings, even if I don't understand where or when I hurt them, then I'll apologize. But it still won't stop me from making further comments in the future about your work, not because I'm dissatisfied with it, but simply because I'm eager to add a stone to your church, that's all.
@agent47, sorry, yes, I am that petty. Being petty is part of what generally makes a good programmer, because it makes us worry about the details.
We're unpaid, and we're hurting our health working like crazy on these things. There's definitely a small hint of pride in what we both do with our lives, I guess... ;)