Something really strange just occurred to me

Arantor

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Something really strange just occurred to me
« on November 5th, 2012, 03:44 AM »
We've all commented in the past about the inanity of 'Regular Members', about the various issues with it and so on.

While working on the member groups configuration page, it just occurred to me - what if, for the sake of argument, Regular Members were to be an actual physical group?

It's not, in any real sense of the word, a physical group. You can't rename it. It doesn't show up on the left anywhere (which is, mostly, the reason for it being a phantom group). Users often want to put users into a specific group on registration - why not make it so they actually DO go into a physical group at registration rather than this phantom group?

Other than having to tweak some of the display code, not to mention some of the management logic (like preventing users deleting it, and to prevent it being changed to another kind of group), I see no reason not to do this.

On the flip side, it would allow you to do things you currently can't - you can't currently set the list of boards accessible to Regular Members as a whole group. You have to do that one board by board, even in SMF, because the edit-membergroup page only works on cases where the group id is 2 or 4+ (global moderator and any group that isn't guests, regular members, admin and board moderators)

I'd love to hear more opinions on this, especially from people who know the code base. I don't see that it should affect things that significantly anywhere.
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spoogs

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #1, on November 5th, 2012, 04:11 AM »
I like the idea quite a bit actually. I think I was more annoyed that I could not rename it more than anything else. Making it a physical group sounds right to me.
Stick a fork in it SMF

Auk

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #2, on November 5th, 2012, 04:15 AM »
*Trying best not to sound idiotic*

Member group for an actual physical group, sure why not. This shall definitely make management easier. There should be an option added to "Main configuration" in admin interface that would ask which group should be treated as main member group. Then tools available such as "create/duplicate new Regular Members group optionally including all users/some/users from group(s)...", "... But exclude users from certain group(s) or list of user(s)". Might be a performance issue somewhere, I hope not.

Or groups created/existing groups (Each group found in database) shall have a new column to signify whether or not it's "the Regular Member group". <--- Might fix performance issue & a possibility of having more than one Regular Members group(for some weird reason) that new members can be added to upon registration.

Edit: HEY!! I WANTED FIRST POST!!! -.-

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Arantor

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #3, on November 5th, 2012, 04:27 AM »
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There should be an option added to "Main configuration" in admin interface that would ask which group should be treated as main member group
You've sort of gotten the idea, except completely in reverse.

I am not going to get into that particular little dance because there is a LOT more logic at stake and a lot more to go wrong if it gets messed about with. However, making the Regular Members group be that group - and NEVER ANYTHING ELSE - will solve problems.
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Then tools available such as "create/duplicate new Regular Members group optionally including all users/some/users from group(s)..."
Why would you do that? It's almost like the entire point of what I'm proposing got missed.
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"... But exclude users from certain group(s) or list of user(s)". Might be a performance issue somewhere, I hope not.
There should be no performance issue because in reality almost nothing's changing.

Let me explain. All users when created get stuffed into group 0, Regular Members. I'm just proposing that this group be a real group. That you be able to assign badges to it, or manage like it a regular group should you want to do so. But in all other respects it is no different to the current regular members group as it stands.
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Or groups created/existing groups (Each group found in database) shall have a new column to signify whether or not it's "the Regular Member group"
Why would you want this? I cannot think of a quicker way to confuse the hell out of users.

If you have a group that you can manipulate where users go when registered, job done. You don't need to fuck about creating new groups that mimic it. If you can give me one meaningful case where this would be advantageous, where it can't be done better some other fashion, let me know. I'm willing to listen. But I'm pretty certain that any case you suggest, I can figure out a better way of doing it than this clusterfuck of confusion.

Auk

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #4, on November 5th, 2012, 05:39 AM »
I should mention it's two different ideas to solve same problem. One I thought would be more efficient than other (Depending if query has to look up main configuration or not, or use vice versa, whichever is better).
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But in all other respects it is no different to the current regular members group as it stands.
Exactly. I ended up thinking of making Regular Groups "almost not special", just something that affects signing up and displays on forum index page. Since pretty much everything else already implemented. :/ I didn't mean for this to be a "Do away with Regular Member groups" idea.
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Why would you do that? It's almost like the entire point of what I'm proposing got missed.
Forum statistics. Example: Number of regular users. Excluding forum bots and such (For wanting very accurate numbers). :/
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Why would you want this? I cannot think of a quicker way to confuse the hell out of users.
Something useful for people managing a board that houses four different websites that acts like four different boards(possibly, different index page and customized sign up page). But the websites are related in some way (Centralized for external features not-in-the-forum-content such as website homepage).

 People would be lost/confused on boards that's so big and the website author may want four different boards, but Centralized database for ease of management and future implementations of new external/internal codes that would work with this software.

Arantor

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #5, on November 5th, 2012, 05:43 AM »
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I should mention it's two different ideas to solve same problem. One I thought would be more efficient than other (Depending if query has to look up main configuration or not, or use vice versa, whichever is better).
Sounds to me like you're trying to solve a completely different problem.
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Exactly. I ended up thinking of making Regular Groups "almost not special", just something that affects signing up and displays on forum index page. Since pretty much everything else already implemented. :/ I didn't mean for this to be a "Do away with Regular Member groups" idea.
But that's exactly what you're proposing, albeit with a 'make a different group special' flag, which does make things more complex than they need to be.
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Something useful for people managing a board that houses four different websites that acts like four different boards(possibly, different index page and customized sign up page). But the websites are related in some way (Centralized for external features not-in-the-forum-content such as website homepage). People would be lost/confused on boards that's so big and the website author may want four different boards, but Centralized database for ease of management and future implementations of new external/internal codes that would work with this software.
That's a pretty convoluted justification, especially since even that won't work with what you're proposing. Even with that hellish configuration, you're still going to be keeping group configuration separate, so you'd just have the same 'Regular Members' group in each of the 4 sites. Or, possibly even just have one installation with four themes on it depending on what you're trying to do.

Either way, you're suggesting a big change that affects a *minute* percentage of people.

Dragooon

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #6, on November 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM »
Why not entirely remove the idea of a special group and just make Regular member like any other group, and make the default member group admin adjustable?
The way it's meant to be

Arantor

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #7, on November 5th, 2012, 04:15 PM »
That's essentially what I'm proposing, though you absolutely *have* to have a special group of some kind. Just like you absolutely *have* to have a zero post count group. Otherwise bad stuff starts happening (though, ironically, this would be less bad than what currently happens...)

garou

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #8, on December 20th, 2012, 04:13 AM »
Usually when I hear people saying they want users to go to a specific group at registration they mean a group the user can select at registration. For instance say the site was for cell phone users, the user could select from Android, iPhone, Windows, etc. Then each group may have group specific boards as well as the general ones and or a badge.

Technically as it stands the general members group gets tagged as "registered" then uses the post count based groups. In that sense it is functional as is. *shrug*

Nao

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #9, on December 22nd, 2012, 11:36 PM »
Thanks for bumping that topic, one of many I'd missed... (Would probably have found it if it had a more explicit name :P)

Oh, Noisen.com actually had from day one a specific 'regular members' group where all new members were put it. IIRC, it's nearly built into SMF itself, you just need to change a line or two in Subs-Members.php or whatever, in the registration function, there's a place to force a membergroup for new members. So, that's what I did... And it's easier to manage.

It'd be nice to move all members into a special group indeed. But how do we do that on import, eh...

Arantor

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #10, on December 22nd, 2012, 11:40 PM »
Better question is *why*.

As the DB structure stands, we *have* to provide a group for users to go to. Group 0 absolutely has to exist in some fashion. All I'm essentially doing is converting from being a phantom group into being a real group, albeit one that you couldn't remove.

Nao

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #11, on December 22nd, 2012, 11:44 PM »
A real group with ID 0..? It doesn't make (too much) sense to me.
I'd rather have an extra group added by the installer (or importer), and everyone with group 0 would be put into it. It would simplify code refactoring a lot because you don't actually need to check everything again.

Arantor

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Re: Something really strange just occurred to me
« Reply #12, on December 22nd, 2012, 11:47 PM »
For what purpose, though? What would you do with this extra group?

Group 0 MUST by definition exist anyway. I'm just trying to avoid creating an extra group that would do exactly the same thing that you're proposing, only without making an extra group to do it.

Consider what you've just said now imagine that it happens to be number 0 instead of number 9 or 10. You still have to do all the same checking you would before.

Nao

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Arantor

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