This conversation started in SMF here (more or less):
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=366399.msg3071573#msg3071573
We went a little off-topic there and ended up talking between virtual_al and me about the differences between Wedge and SMF and the bad impression on first sight he has got of some things here.
I can understand exactly why he got that first impression, being somebody pretty new to SMF that had never heard about Wedge and all the things that happened in SMF in the last few years.
I think the topic is really important and I wouldn't like to leave it like that. I feel we need to analyse it thoroughly for 2 reasons:
1.- To change virtual_al's first impression.
2.- To see if we need to change anything in the way we are presenting ourselves to the people that have never heard of us before and/or any of the problems we may have had with SMF in the past.
Of course I didn't feel we should continue talking about this topic there inside SMF (I don't want any more kind PMs asking me to stop promoting competitors) so I asked virtual_al to open an account here and copy/paste all his opinions in a new topic so we could continue the conversation here.
Of course, as he just pointed out in a PM, he cannot do that:Quote I see your point virtual_al. You are right, it won't be polite.
I could just continue the conversation via PMs but, as I said before, I feel the topic is important, so I have opened it myself so we all can talk about it.
Let me see some of the points I would like to answer:Quote That was here already when I joined last December.
In that time we didn't had yet a full List of Features. Most of the things were very much un-organized and to find out anything you had to search a lot through the site, reading posts here and there.
Just now there is a full List of Features. 108 features all in all, including 46 major additions. They're sorted by category here:
http://wedge.org/pub/feats/
They are well explained, with the status of each one and with the possibility to add a comment to any one of them to ask for any more explanation if needed.
I think somebody should change that part of the FAQs to add there the link to the List of Features.Quote I don't really understand how you got that impression. Of course I cannot see the FAQs with "fresh" eyes as I already know where everything is coming from, but if that's the first impression somebody new gets when reading the FAQs, I think somebody should re-write them.
For example, when it says we plan to do updates very often it's comparing it with the ridiculous speed of the updates in SMF. I don't even remember how many years ago they started to do SMF 2.0, but it definitely was not a few months ago, but a few years ago. And take a look at the amount of bugs sorted every month by the SMF team comparing it with the amount of bugs Nao and Arantor sort every month. (And don't forget to take a look at the list of bugs they were planning to sort in SMF 2.0 but they have postponed to sort them later because if not they would have need to wait another couple of years, so at the end they have released 2.0 final with a lot of bugs inside it).
So for me I get the impression it is saying something like "If you are the kind of guy who doesn't give a f**k if your software is always up-to-date and free of bugs or not, Wedge is not for you".
In my day-to-day work I see hundreds of computers with all kind of systems and configurations. Most of the computers they bring me is because they are not working properly and they want me to sort them. And the worst ones are always the computers where the owner never update the software.
So if you are a guy using XP service pack 1 (when SP3 has been out for years and sort a lot of important security bugs) still using Internet Explorer 6 (when IE9 has been out already for a while with a lot of bugs sorted and there are also better browsers as Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc) with an antivirus out of date, etc, etc, don't come asking me for a miracle. I can update your computer, clean all the viruses, sort all the problems and leave your computer working properly, but if you don't change your mentality and update yourself the software more often (or bring me the computer once a month so I do it for you) you will have the same problems again after a few months.
It's the same with forums.
I saw last week a guy using SMF 1.1.6 because that's the version that was just out when he started the forum and has never bother to update it. Definitely Wedge is not at all for that kind of guy.
But you are not like that. In fact this conversation started just the next day after SMF released 2.0 final version and 1.1.14 because you were wondering if you should upgrade from 1.1.13 to 1.1.14 or to 2.0 and if all the mods you have are or not compatibles with those versions.
That's the kind of spirit we are expecting here.
And BTW, I would like to comment some more in this paragraph:Quote The way Wedge started maybe that was true in a sense. At least when I joined last December we were very few of us and most of us geeks more or less fed-up with the way they were doing things in SMF and willing to find software that really will have all the kind of features we are expecting from this kind of software, but the way I see Wedge just now, it's not only for geeks.
In fact the latest things Arantor is working on will make very easy to update plug-ins (we call the mods here plug-ins for reasons that doesn't matter just now) or even to update the core of the forum without needing to worry about un-installing and re-installing plug-ins (as you need to do in SMF) or the amount of plug-ins you have.
Plug-ins will be compatible with almost any version of Wedge, so the plug-ins won't need to be updated every time there is a small change in the core of the software (as they need in SMF).
All the updates and plug-in installs will be fully automatic and you won't need to edit manually one single line of code (as you need to do so often in SMF) even if you are not using the default Theme.
Etc, etc, so noobs with no idea about coding will be able to update the core and install plug-ins with just a click.
Being like that, if upgrading your forum only takes you a few seconds and doesn't gives you any hassle at all I don't think you will mind if there is a new version of the software once a month. :eheh:
==========
I could still answer a few more things, but maybe would be better to shut up for a while and see what the rest of the people here thinks about it.
And BTW, as you are new here you may not know this:
Any opinion expressed here by Arantor or Neo can be considered (almost always) as the official Wedge opinion, while any other one's opinion (as mine for example) are normally just personal opinions (with some few punctual exceptions).
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=366399.msg3071573#msg3071573
We went a little off-topic there and ended up talking between virtual_al and me about the differences between Wedge and SMF and the bad impression on first sight he has got of some things here.
I can understand exactly why he got that first impression, being somebody pretty new to SMF that had never heard about Wedge and all the things that happened in SMF in the last few years.
I think the topic is really important and I wouldn't like to leave it like that. I feel we need to analyse it thoroughly for 2 reasons:
1.- To change virtual_al's first impression.
2.- To see if we need to change anything in the way we are presenting ourselves to the people that have never heard of us before and/or any of the problems we may have had with SMF in the past.
Of course I didn't feel we should continue talking about this topic there inside SMF (I don't want any more kind PMs asking me to stop promoting competitors) so I asked virtual_al to open an account here and copy/paste all his opinions in a new topic so we could continue the conversation here.
Of course, as he just pointed out in a PM, he cannot do that:
It's like knocking at somebody's door only to tell him that you're not impressed with his house :) In that case I would most certainly deserve a "then get the f*ck outta here, pal!"
I could just continue the conversation via PMs but, as I said before, I feel the topic is important, so I have opened it myself so we all can talk about it.
Let me see some of the points I would like to answer:
I kept reading the Wedge FAQ and to be honest, I didn't quite understand what new features/benefits it offers (or will offer). Then I found another remark: "you can already find many of the Wedge features listed in the forum. You just need to go through all of the topics and thoroughly read all of Arantor's and Nao's posts, where they're often mentioned casually. Have fun". Well it's not "fun" at all...
In that time we didn't had yet a full List of Features. Most of the things were very much un-organized and to find out anything you had to search a lot through the site, reading posts here and there.
Just now there is a full List of Features. 108 features all in all, including 46 major additions. They're sorted by category here:
http://wedge.org/pub/feats/
They are well explained, with the status of each one and with the possibility to add a comment to any one of them to ask for any more explanation if needed.
I think somebody should change that part of the FAQs to add there the link to the List of Features.
I don't even like the way they say they plan to release and manage updates. It very much sounds like "if you're not a geek who enjoys playing with your forum setup every month or so, Wedge is not for you".
For example, when it says we plan to do updates very often it's comparing it with the ridiculous speed of the updates in SMF. I don't even remember how many years ago they started to do SMF 2.0, but it definitely was not a few months ago, but a few years ago. And take a look at the amount of bugs sorted every month by the SMF team comparing it with the amount of bugs Nao and Arantor sort every month. (And don't forget to take a look at the list of bugs they were planning to sort in SMF 2.0 but they have postponed to sort them later because if not they would have need to wait another couple of years, so at the end they have released 2.0 final with a lot of bugs inside it).
So for me I get the impression it is saying something like "If you are the kind of guy who doesn't give a f**k if your software is always up-to-date and free of bugs or not, Wedge is not for you".
In my day-to-day work I see hundreds of computers with all kind of systems and configurations. Most of the computers they bring me is because they are not working properly and they want me to sort them. And the worst ones are always the computers where the owner never update the software.
So if you are a guy using XP service pack 1 (when SP3 has been out for years and sort a lot of important security bugs) still using Internet Explorer 6 (when IE9 has been out already for a while with a lot of bugs sorted and there are also better browsers as Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc) with an antivirus out of date, etc, etc, don't come asking me for a miracle. I can update your computer, clean all the viruses, sort all the problems and leave your computer working properly, but if you don't change your mentality and update yourself the software more often (or bring me the computer once a month so I do it for you) you will have the same problems again after a few months.
It's the same with forums.
I saw last week a guy using SMF 1.1.6 because that's the version that was just out when he started the forum and has never bother to update it. Definitely Wedge is not at all for that kind of guy.
But you are not like that. In fact this conversation started just the next day after SMF released 2.0 final version and 1.1.14 because you were wondering if you should upgrade from 1.1.13 to 1.1.14 or to 2.0 and if all the mods you have are or not compatibles with those versions.
That's the kind of spirit we are expecting here.
And BTW, I would like to comment some more in this paragraph:
... if you're not a geek who enjoys ...
In fact the latest things Arantor is working on will make very easy to update plug-ins (we call the mods here plug-ins for reasons that doesn't matter just now) or even to update the core of the forum without needing to worry about un-installing and re-installing plug-ins (as you need to do in SMF) or the amount of plug-ins you have.
Plug-ins will be compatible with almost any version of Wedge, so the plug-ins won't need to be updated every time there is a small change in the core of the software (as they need in SMF).
All the updates and plug-in installs will be fully automatic and you won't need to edit manually one single line of code (as you need to do so often in SMF) even if you are not using the default Theme.
Etc, etc, so noobs with no idea about coding will be able to update the core and install plug-ins with just a click.
Being like that, if upgrading your forum only takes you a few seconds and doesn't gives you any hassle at all I don't think you will mind if there is a new version of the software once a month. :eheh:
==========
I could still answer a few more things, but maybe would be better to shut up for a while and see what the rest of the people here thinks about it.
And BTW, as you are new here you may not know this:
Any opinion expressed here by Arantor or Neo can be considered (almost always) as the official Wedge opinion, while any other one's opinion (as mine for example) are normally just personal opinions (with some few punctual exceptions).
