In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?

xrunner

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #15, on June 5th, 2013, 03:01 AM »
Well, I'm having a hard time coming up with anything else to add to Wedge. Either you have already added something I wanted, you've convinced me it is better left to a mod, or you've come up with an idea that I didn't think of but is very cool.

I guess that means it's probably going to be quite pleasing for me to run my forum with. :youretheboss:

Arantor

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #16, on June 5th, 2013, 03:03 AM »
We try :)

I'm of the view that a lot of the things that are being added or have been added have rough edges that we can't see yet, e.g. the admin panel and some of the admin controls. And there's plenty of things I want to do, it's just a matter of writing them, since in most cases it's not really a code problem or design problem but a motivation problem.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

xrunner

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Arantor

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live627

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Nao

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #20, on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM »
A couple of weeks ago, I was looking into XF's trophy system, and tried to think of something for Wedge too, that would look a bit like it, but also be an indicator of someone's implication on a forum... So, I started devising (additive) points attributed by post (1), thought (0.5), per direct post/thought reply (since we have this in the database) (0.5), likes (depending on what it being liked, I couldn't make up my mind), topic (I think I settled on 0.2 per reply to it), but then I decided awarding points to replies might encourage trolling. Anyway, I couldn't settle on other things like points awarded for gallery albums and items, topic and profile views (minus bot visits), and more place-specific areas like uploading a plugin or theme here, or being marked as the one who successfully replied to a topic[1], so I just skipped to something else that needed my attention, so it's funny to see a discussion about something similar, but I don't really think it can be done, without at least giving the admin the ability to change the attributable points per item, and that's where it becomes complicated I guess. Ultimately, I wanted to see if we couldn't replace post-based groups with points-based groups, that is, awarding shy people for still being part of the community. But then, what prevents you from just Liking every single post in the forum..? A ban threat, maybe....? :lol:

Anyway, that's where I was at that point, and I couldn't decide, so I think I added it somewhere in my to-do list, and you know the story about my to-do list... It grows about 5 times faster than it shrinks, so it's never ending.
 1. That one is actually interesting; I forgot to mention that earlier, sorry. I mean, when I click "Mark as solved", it always says I marked it as solved, but I'd like to be able to mark someone else as the solver, so maybe we should have an "Accept answer" option per-post in solvable topics, so that we can properly 'thank' the one who actually solve your problem... Hey, why not..?

xrunner

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #21, on June 5th, 2013, 07:32 PM »
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
... so it's funny to see a discussion about something similar, but I don't really think it can be done, without at least giving the admin the ability to change the attributable points per item, and that's where it becomes complicated I guess. Ultimately, I wanted to see if we couldn't replace post-based groups with points-based groups, that is, awarding shy people for still being part of the community. But then, what prevents you from just Liking every single post in the forum..? A ban threat, maybe....? :lol:
I hear ya Nao. But same thing with posts. What prevents you from posting replies to every single post in the forum to get your post count up? A ban threat maybe? :)

I guess it's that damn post count number. This person has 1,234 posts, that person has 456 posts, another has 2310 posts. After a certain amount, say ten or 100, do we need such an exact number to display? The exact number is almost meaningless as far as most members are concerned. Isn't it all relative at some point ... Oh maybe I got an idea ...[1] I'll get back this evening. :)
 1. I know, you thought you smelled smoke

Hristo

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #22, on June 5th, 2013, 10:00 PM »
Personally I find all the Like/Reputation/Karma etc. systems I know more harmful than beneficial in long term. For example the 'Like' system used here. It works here because the forum is still small and the average active member level (as knowledge, attitude ect.) is way above the usual forum averages. But on most other forums such system after some time will induce an elitism - a group of popular members which get Likes even if they post "+1". Meanwhile most new members will not get a Like even if they post a scheme for working portable cold fusion reactor :). That is, most new members will feel unappreciated and will not post often or leave the forum. IMHO!

Now, maybe if there was a system which rewards those members whose topics/post induces traffic from search engines and/or from backlinks... maybe I would be interested in such function, or at least I would give it a try.

P. S. Excuse my (self learned :-/) English

Arantor

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #23, on June 5th, 2013, 10:29 PM »
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
A couple of weeks ago, I was looking into XF's trophy system, and tried to think of something for Wedge too, that would look a bit like it, but also be an indicator of someone's implication on a forum...
XF's is pretty customisable. I really must give you the details of my test site sometime so you can play with it and see what it does and doesn't offer. But 1.2 is a huge update coming soon.
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
So, I started devising (additive) points attributed by post (1), thought (0.5), per direct post/thought reply (since we have this in the database) (0.5), likes (depending on what it being liked, I couldn't make up my mind), topic (I think I settled on 0.2 per reply to it), but then I decided awarding points to replies might encourage trolling.
That's the thing. Anything a user can do to manipulate their account can also encourage trolling. It was not entirely an oversight that the count of likes that a user has accrued is not stored or displayed. ;) It's trollable.
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Anyway, I couldn't settle on other things like points awarded for gallery albums and items, topic and profile views (minus bot visits), and more place-specific areas like uploading a plugin or theme here, or being marked as the one who successfully replied to a topic[1]
 1. That one is actually interesting; I forgot to mention that earlier, sorry. I mean, when I click "Mark as solved", it always says I marked it as solved, but I'd like to be able to mark someone else as the solver, so maybe we should have an "Accept answer" option per-post in solvable topics, so that we can properly 'thank' the one who actually solve your problem... Hey, why not..?
I didn't mention it in my review but it's actually an option in IPB to have that whole 'allow the topic starter to mark an answer as the best answer' deal. But that always seems to me like it should be a function of the topic solved plugin rather than a core feature.
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
, so I just skipped to something else that needed my attention, so it's funny to see a discussion about something similar, but I don't really think it can be done, without at least giving the admin the ability to change the attributable points per item, and that's where it becomes complicated I guess. Ultimately, I wanted to see if we couldn't replace post-based groups with points-based groups, that is, awarding shy people for still being part of the community. But then, what prevents you from just Liking every single post in the forum..? A ban threat, maybe....? :lol:
Well, way way back I thought about doing criteria based groups, e.g. karma based groups, topic-count based groups etc. but I'm still not sure we actually need that if that makes sense.

I have this feeling that any such function beyond a fancy title is actually problematic.

The only difference is with reputation; you can give reputation but the amount of reputation you give is analogous to the amount of reputation you yourself have.

Does 'removing power to like' need to be a warning punishment?
Quote from Nao on June 5th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Anyway, that's where I was at that point, and I couldn't decide, so I think I added it somewhere in my to-do list, and you know the story about my to-do list... It grows about 5 times faster than it shrinks, so it's never ending.
Yeah, we know how that works :lol:
Quote from xrunner on June 5th, 2013, 07:32 PM
I hear ya Nao. But same thing with posts. What prevents you from posting replies to every single post in the forum to get your post count up? A ban threat maybe? :)
Nothing. Some people do do it on sm.org but a warning would help deal with that.
Quote from xrunner on June 5th, 2013, 07:32 PM
I guess it's that damn post count number. This person has 1,234 posts, that person has 456 posts, another has 2310 posts. After a certain amount, say ten or 100, do we need such an exact number to display? The exact number is almost meaningless as far as most members are concerned. Isn't it all relative at some point ... Oh maybe I got an idea ...[2] I'll get back this evening. :)
 2. I know, you thought you smelled smoke
But for every user for whom the precision is irrelevant, there is another where they want it. Especially if they're close to a milestone.
Quote from Hristo on June 5th, 2013, 10:00 PM
Personally I find all the Like/Reputation/Karma etc. systems I know more harmful than beneficial in long term. For example the 'Like' system used here. It works here because the forum is still small and the average active member level (as knowledge, attitude ect.) is way above the usual forum averages. But on most other forums such system after some time will induce an elitism - a group of popular members which get Likes even if they post "+1".
True but it's not actually as bad in reality as it might be. XenForo, for example, has half a million posts and a lot of likes (and AFAIK you can't disable them) and only some people elicit the whole insta-like... c.f. my comments about quasi-deifying the community leaders. That part isn't really healthy. But even a relative newbie like me can gain a few likes for a few posts as I demonstrated recently... it's a different place to hang out and I like some of the ideas and discussions, it's just nice to be in a different environment, you know?
Quote from Hristo on June 5th, 2013, 10:00 PM
Meanwhile most new members will not get a Like even if they post a scheme for working portable cold fusion reactor :). That is, most new members will feel unappreciated and will not post often or leave the forum. IMHO!

Now, maybe if there was a system which rewards those members whose topics/post induces traffic from search engines and/or from backlinks... maybe I would be interested in such function, or at least I would give it a try.

P. S. Excuse my (self learned :-/) English
There is: it's called topics that generate comments from new members. Topics that have a disproportionate number of people with < 10 posts posting in them. Usually they are announcements from the forum leaders who by definition don't really need the reputation anyway. There is a part of me that wants to brand this selfish or naive in some way too but without any real reason at this point in time as to *why*.

xrunner

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #24, on June 6th, 2013, 01:04 AM »
Quote from Arantor on June 5th, 2013, 10:29 PM
But for every user for whom the precision is irrelevant, there is another where they want it. Especially if they're close to a milestone.
OK so the post count has to stay in some form, more ideas -

Option A

Don't show the exact post count number (except when someone views another member profile). Show a bar that goes from Zero to the post count of the highest posting member. On that bar, show a dot. The dot is where you fall on the range of post counts. The graph should not be so precise you can read it down to +/- 1 post - it's just a rough indication of your standing in the post counts. You can even make it a logarithmic graph.

Add-on: If you hover over the bar graph you can get the exact post count number if you really want it.

Add-on: Show tick marks where every post count group star is awarded on the graph. People are always asking about those set points anyway.

Option B

Show members a bar graph when they look at other profiles on the forum threads that is relative to their own post count total. Each member will see a different bar for other members based on a relative comparison of post counts. In this mode, members don't see any bar on their own profile but, OK dammit, they will see their own post count.

Now, if John has 250 posts and Mary has 1000, then John sees a bar length of +750 on Mary's profile or you could show something like "4x" because she has 4 times as many posts. If a third member Jack has 100 posts, John sees -740 bar on Jacks profile or 0.13x.

Mary sees, when looking at John's profile, -750 bar or 0.75x, and for Jack she sees -990 or 0.1x.

So, in this mode, you see a relative standing in relation to the other member's post counts - not absolute numbers (but they are still in the member's profile to view). Also, as suggested above, you can hover over the bar for the exact post count total.

Arantor

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #25, on June 6th, 2013, 01:28 AM »
Some very interesting ideas there, but they all seem to me to encourage post whoring, I.e. always trying to beat the top spot. Yes, it will likely encourage participation, but I'm not convinced it will encourage *good* participation if that makes sense?

I do like the imagination being shown here, this all sounds like a potential to shake up the status quo and possibly even be worth experimenting here as plugins for some of it to try and get an idea of how well it works in a real environment, especially since I'm the current top poster :niark: But joining a forum like this one where the lead posters are not merely thousands ahead but tens of thousands ahead (remember, top post count on sm.org is 51k, followed by 36k-odd for a couple then it dwindles into the 20k range and tails off) and you sort of think it could be a bad idea in the long run if not handled carefully. Log scaling would actually likely make it worse for the newcomers since the mountain looks potentially even higher if you're not careful.

xrunner

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #26, on June 6th, 2013, 01:33 AM »
Quote from Arantor on June 6th, 2013, 01:28 AM
I do like the imagination being shown here, this all sounds like a potential to shake up the status quo ..
Just throwing out ideas - you won't see my feelings hurt by rejecting them[1]. Sooner or later I'll hit on something. Probably. Maybe.

I got another idea coming in a few minutes, in a new post. :)
 1. I just go outside and break rocks with my hammer, that's why you won't see anything :)

Arantor

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #27, on June 6th, 2013, 01:40 AM »
I'm trying not to be negative, I'm just wielding my weapon of choice, the Cold Hard Iron Bar of Reality ;) I think there is a lot of potential here but at the same time I can see it easily causing drama and putting off newcomers.

I find myself more and more curious about XenForo's approach, post count and stuff is hidden away until brought up with a popup, you only see avatar, title and name on the main view, heck even showing staff banners only came in as part of the upcoming 1.2 and then it's still modest rather than overbearing. The posh fancy-schmancy phrase which comes to mind is"delightfully minimalist" and it seems to work quite well.

Johnny54

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #28, on June 6th, 2013, 01:49 PM »
How useful is post / topic count?
I guess it comes down to what you want with your forum. High post en topic count in general, or meaningful discussions and help.
E.g. on our forum about UPC we are running a word game, just for fun, and there are members with thousands of post, but all of them in that word game topic. Nice for the overall statistics of the forum but the high post count of such a member hardly says anything about the value of the member in relation with the goal of the forum only how active he is.

Writing that.
I know that in SMF post in the trashcan aren't counted, but is there a setting to prevent post count for boards / topics  of your choice? [1]
If not, that would be a nice feature to implement.

Stupid idea.
What if post count would be shown per member per board?
E.g. If I am reading in "FAQ" and the post count of a member shows how many post the member made in "FAQ", if I am reading in "Bug Reports" the post count of that same member shows how many post he made in "Bug Reports".
It would make very clear how active that member is in a particular board. It says something about his interest in the subject of the board.
In his profile it would still show his total number of posts.
Probably a nightmare to program but he I said it was a stupid idea. :eheh:
 1. Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I am just a global moderator and not very familiar with the admin panel of SMF.

Arantor

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Re: In Addition to Post Count - Power Ranking?
« Reply #29, on June 6th, 2013, 02:39 PM »
Yes, there is a setting for post counts per board. Changing it is also not instantly retroactive, but there is also (in Wedge, and maybe in SMF 2.1) the option to recount everyone's post count.

The problem with doing post count per board is that it is not centrally maintained. Post counts per member are stored in the member's account itself and updated when posts are updated, so when you make a post, your post count is increased. Having to recalculate post count on demand is not especially cheap, though it is an interesting idea. (It's not particularly hard to program either)