sascape

  • My first thought is about... thinking.
  • Posts: 2
Wedge Appreciation Thread
« on September 16th, 2012, 02:07 PM »
I just wanted to say 'Thank you'.

I've read in another thread that you guys thought about giving this project up not long ago because people don't know how to behave.
Sadly the most vocal are flamers while people who just follow you silently and are waiting for a release remain mostly hidden.

The first time I heard about wedge I wanted to upgrade my SMF immediately, but - as I learned - wedge was still in development and still is. Since then I'm watching you guys. At least once a month I visit this website to see if there is some progress.
I understand that you want to publish a version that you're satisfied with so I don't mind waiting.

I just want you to know that there is another sort of follower who appreciate what you are doing. Thank you for your work!

Sincerely

Sarah

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,063
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #1, on September 16th, 2012, 02:30 PM »
Hello,
Quote from sascape on September 16th, 2012, 02:07 PM
I just wanted to say 'Thank you'.

I've read in another thread that you guys thought about giving this project up not long ago because people don't know how to behave.
Pete planned (plans?) to give up, yes, but I never did... I'm too close to completing my work to give up now. (Heck, even if I still had a few years worth of work left to do, I wouldn't give up, if only because Wedge is probably SMF's best chance of surviving the competition.)
Quote
Sadly the most vocal are flamers while people who just follow you silently and are waiting for a release remain mostly hidden.
Well, I don't know that it'll be a smash success, but at least it'll be there. And it'll have its die-hard fans, and people who say they prefer the competition, etc. Heck, even back when I made Kyodai Mahjongg, which was arguably the best of its kind, I had detractors as well. A tiny minority, though :) I guess I know how to please people: I just do what I know best...
Quote
The first time I heard about wedge I wanted to upgrade my SMF immediately, but - as I learned - wedge was still in development and still is. Since then I'm watching you guys. At least once a month I visit this website to see if there is some progress.
I understand that you want to publish a version that you're satisfied with so I don't mind waiting.
There will be a public version out this year anyway. It has slowed down a lot for two reasons mainly, (1) Pete's diminishing involvement (up until recently he was involved 50/50, but since May he's been largely absent and made only 10% of the commits, leaving me to despair for someone to take over and come help :(), (2) My justified fears of starting work on some of the most ambitious and interesting things in Wedge, such as topic privacy (which is implemented at Noisen in a flawed form, so Pete advises against doing it the same way), using Aeva Media for attachments (the jury's still out on this one), board types (it's probably the easiest to implement, but I'm just not sure whether it's best to take my old Noisen code for them as well), and so on.
Since then, (2) has pretty much become a non-issue because we decided to feature-freeze most of Wedge until we're satisfied with the returns, and then we'll start (or at least I'll start) implementing these in v2.0 or something. (Maybe earlier.)
Quote
I just want you to know that there is another sort of follower who appreciate what you are doing. Thank you for your work!
Thank you :)

pivotraze

  • Software Developer
  • Waiting... waiting... waiting for the Alpha release :D
  • Posts: 30
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #3, on September 16th, 2012, 09:38 PM »
I too am more of a lurker than a poster right now. I have been watching Wedge since I first learned about it. I read about it in the post you first made about it, before it had a name. I loved the idea, and have been waiting since.

I want to use Wedge, and I checked every month as well. Since I've seen topics saying "Getting ready for an alpha release...," I've been checking once to three times a week :) I'm REALLY excited for Wedge.
Owner of Seafire Software
http://www.seafiresoftware.org
Wedge Enthusiast.
Can't wait until 1.0 GOLD!!! <3

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #4, on September 16th, 2012, 11:34 PM »
And in all honesty, this is why I've been distancing myself from it. When we started out it was to make something cool. Cool is good. I like making stuff, but what I don't like it making stuff only to get attitude out of it, followed by personal abuse, because people seem to think that they're entitled to something.

I honestly don't know where I fit into things. I'm finding it hard to write code, I'm still trying to cope with all the stuff going on in real life, and the last thing I need is to continue to be part of an environment where ultimately it's only going to be unpleasant in the longer term.

Here's the thing: all the people clamouring for Wedge now are being disappointed because they haven't been able to get it yet. But they'll be disappointed if they get it now, because it's not really ready yet. So it's the lesser of the disappointments.

You all know by now that I'm cynical. I have to be honest, pretty much every time I see the words 'I'm really excited to use X', I interpret that as being a combination of 'I want it now' and 'I'm disappointed it isn't here yet'. If you're openly admitting that you're coming back just to see if there's some news, to me it seems like an admission of these points.

There are two types of people. There are the creators and the consumers. There are many more people in the latter group than the former. But I don't see many people stepping up to the plate and asking how they can get involved. I don't see people asking what they can do to help. All I see are people who don't want to help, they just want to use the result.

You can probably understand why I don't want to contribute too much when that's where things are going. It's hard enough for me to do something inherently creative as it is, without feeling like I'm doing it because other people expect me to, rather than because I'm enjoying the journey.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,063
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #5, on September 17th, 2012, 12:01 AM »
But as long as it's in alpha, at least we have the perfect canned response to any support requests: "it's not final yet"...
Or another one: "if you'd like to complain about the alpha that you're supposed to install only if you know what you're doing, then please buy our ImAWhiner package for $99.99!"

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #6, on September 17th, 2012, 02:53 AM »
And 'it's not final yet' is still 'you can't have it yet'.

And you know as well as I do that people don't give a hoot about 'don't use this in production unless you know what you're doing' warnings, given all the experience with SMF and how many people were using 2.0 RCs without knowing what they were doing.

pivotraze

  • Software Developer
  • Waiting... waiting... waiting for the Alpha release :D
  • Posts: 30
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #7, on September 17th, 2012, 06:01 AM »
Aranator, I just want to let you know that I would help if I knew PHP. I'm only a python guy, so I know how hard it is to make something, and it take months, years even. Hell, I've been working on one program for 2 or 3 years, and it's still nowhere near completion. I have a lot of people that have plainly lost interest in it because it's taking so long. That's hard to take in, that I'm losing people who were initially excited in it.

What you are making is going to be amazing, I have no doubt. The only way I can help, that I know of, is to spread word about Wedge. I can't donate, as I don't have money, and I can't code because I only know HTML, some CSS, VERY LITTLE JavaScript, and literally no PHP, besides that <? opens PHP and > closes (I think... But what do I know? I failed to write a phpinfo file... I googled it after failing to write it myself.)

Don't get discouraged by the people that hate on it. There is many more people loving that it will be out, even in alpha, soon. You need to get back in the mindset that what the rest of the people want does not matter. You set out to make something you would enjoy using. THAT is what matters. I make programs because they will help me, or I have always wanted to make it. You started making Wedge because you were dissatisfied with how SMF was going, and wanted to make something that improved upon it's base. Keep that mindset.

You and Nao are inspirations to me. Why? Because you guys have been able to garner so much attention to something not even released yet. You have been able to garner a cult following, when I can't even get more than 1000 downloads on one released app. You guys have a mindset that transferred to me: I want to make something I would enjoy using, and release it when I feel that it would be a good thing to use.

MultiformeIngegno

  • Posts: 1,337

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,063
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #9, on September 18th, 2012, 04:27 PM »
I'd glad to see you back at work, Pete :)
I hope it's not because of the couple of sour remarks I made the last few days... Otherwise it's going to encourage me to be even more cynical :lol:
Quote from pivotraze on September 17th, 2012, 06:01 AM
Aranator,
Sarah Connor,
Quote
I just want to let you know that I would help if I knew PHP. I'm only a python guy, so I know how hard it is to make something, and it take months, years even. Hell, I've been working on one program for 2 or 3 years, and it's still nowhere near completion.
This is the first time I'm in that situation, myself. My first piece of software, I was obviously a total unknown, and I released new versions every other month or so, so people were never calling it vaporware... Aeva Media, when I did the renaming etc, I think it took about six months between the last SMG and the first AeMe, maybe less, anyway everything was cool too.
Wedge... Not so much.
But then again, it's two years. Well, technically, a bit over a year since we made the announcement. And nearly a year since my first tentative release date... Eh. That's pretty much an extra life I lost in this. A year in the merde.
Quote
I have a lot of people that have plainly lost interest in it because it's taking so long. That's hard to take in, that I'm losing people who were initially excited in it.
Your signature's? Well, your forum seems to be running phpBB, that's funny ;) (Although it's a theme I never saw before..!)
What's the software about?
Quote
What you are making is going to be amazing, I have no doubt. The only way I can help, that I know of, is to spread word about Wedge. I can't donate, as I don't have money, and I can't code because I only know HTML, some CSS, VERY LITTLE JavaScript, and literally no PHP, besides that <? opens PHP and > closes (I think... But what do I know? I failed to write a phpinfo file... I googled it after failing to write it myself.)
HTML and CSS is enough to help! Submitting improvements to my CSS, etc... Unfortunately I'm way too busy in so many areas, I just can't keep up with the 'clean' CSS, and I tend to add bloat too easily.
Quote
Don't get discouraged by the people that hate on it.
I'm not discouraged, personally... I'll never be. I enjoy making Wedge too much. Of course, it's also due to the fact that every time I stumble upon something I don't like, I'll push it aside and focus on Wess or something else instead... :^^;:
Quote
You started making Wedge because you were dissatisfied with how SMF was going,
With the team obviously, more than with the software itself. (Otherwise we would have forked some other software...)
We wanted to keep contributing to it, but without the extra hassle.

It's 'nearly' too bad that the team problems are now largely solved and some good devs are at work on SMF 2.1 and we're basically going to clash with it when it'd be best to merge them or something ;)
Quote
You and Nao are inspirations to me. Why? Because you guys have been able to garner so much attention to something not even released yet. You have been able to garner a cult following, when I can't even get more than 1000 downloads on one released app.
We have 220 likes for Wedge on Facebook... I don't call that a cult following. It's not even a tenth of SMF's likes...
I don't expect Wedge to be a smash hit, really. I've known what a smash hit is -- back in 1998. By 2001 my software had been downloaded in the hundreds of thousands. (Millions?) Thankfully, I'm not desperate to reproduce that here... First because it's even more of a niche, and secondly because I'm not planning to make money off Wedge, ah ah... (Stupid me.)
Quote
You guys have a mindset that transferred to me: I want to make something I would enjoy using, and release it when I feel that it would be a good thing to use.
It's so much more complicated than that, unfortunately... :(

pivotraze

  • Software Developer
  • Waiting... waiting... waiting for the Alpha release :D
  • Posts: 30
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #10, on September 20th, 2012, 07:58 PM »
Quote from Nao on September 18th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I'd glad to see you back at work, Pete :)
I hope it's not because of the couple of sour remarks I made the last few days... Otherwise it's going to encourage me to be even more cynical :lol:
Quote from pivotraze on September 17th, 2012, 06:01 AM
Aranator,
Sarah Connor,
Lol :P
Quote
Quote
I just want to let you know that I would help if I knew PHP. I'm only a python guy, so I know how hard it is to make something, and it take months, years even. Hell, I've been working on one program for 2 or 3 years, and it's still nowhere near completion.
This is the first time I'm in that situation, myself. My first piece of software, I was obviously a total unknown, and I released new versions every other month or so, so people were never calling it vaporware... Aeva Media, when I did the renaming etc, I think it took about six months between the last SMG and the first AeMe, maybe less, anyway everything was cool too.
Wedge... Not so much.
But then again, it's two years. Well, technically, a bit over a year since we made the announcement. And nearly a year since my first tentative release date... Eh. That's pretty much an extra life I lost in this. A year in the merde.
I'm still a total unknown :) Haha
Quote
Quote
I have a lot of people that have plainly lost interest in it because it's taking so long. That's hard to take in, that I'm losing people who were initially excited in it.
Your signature's? Well, your forum seems to be running phpBB, that's funny ;) (Although it's a theme I never saw before..!)
Yeah, it's running phpBB because... well... I don't know why. It was mainly because that was an awesome theme :P
Quote
What's the software about?
Depends on which one:
Pivot: Revolution - A continuation of the Stick figure animator, Pivot. It adds a lot of new features, but is still under development, not even alpha.
Anansi CalcPad - I wrote it for Raindolf Owusu in Africa. It's basically a simple calculator that is also a journal and also does news aggregation.
Seafire WebBrowser - Probably self explanatory, but I'm also debating just cancelling this one. There is so many good web browsers out there, that there isn't much need for another. Also, I'm trying to concentrate my efforts down.
Quote
Quote
What you are making is going to be amazing, I have no doubt. The only way I can help, that I know of, is to spread word about Wedge. I can't donate, as I don't have money, and I can't code because I only know HTML, some CSS, VERY LITTLE JavaScript, and literally no PHP, besides that <? opens PHP and > closes (I think... But what do I know? I failed to write a phpinfo file... I googled it after failing to write it myself.)
HTML and CSS is enough to help! Submitting improvements to my CSS, etc... Unfortunately I'm way too busy in so many areas, I just can't keep up with the 'clean' CSS, and I tend to add bloat too easily.
Where could I help, exactly? Like, where would I be able to see the CSS/HTML :P
Quote
Quote
Don't get discouraged by the people that hate on it.
I'm not discouraged, personally... I'll never be. I enjoy making Wedge too much. Of course, it's also due to the fact that every time I stumble upon something I don't like, I'll push it aside and focus on Wess or something else instead... :^^;:
I'm glad to hear that :) I can't wait to see it running on my site :P :D
Quote
Quote
You started making Wedge because you were dissatisfied with how SMF was going,
With the team obviously, more than with the software itself. (Otherwise we would have forked some other software...)
We wanted to keep contributing to it, but without the extra hassle.
Yeah, I didn't really clarify that enough, did I :P I meant the team, but... oh well! :P
Quote
It's 'nearly' too bad that the team problems are now largely solved and some good devs are at work on SMF 2.1 and we're basically going to clash with it when it'd be best to merge them or something ;)
Yeah, that'd be pretty interesting to see their reply to that xD
Quote
Quote
You and Nao are inspirations to me. Why? Because you guys have been able to garner so much attention to something not even released yet. You have been able to garner a cult following, when I can't even get more than 1000 downloads on one released app.
We have 220 likes for Wedge on Facebook... I don't call that a cult following. It's not even a tenth of SMF's likes...
I don't expect Wedge to be a smash hit, really. I've known what a smash hit is -- back in 1998. By 2001 my software had been downloaded in the hundreds of thousands. (Millions?) Thankfully, I'm not desperate to reproduce that here... First because it's even more of a niche, and secondly because I'm not planning to make money off Wedge, ah ah... (Stupid me.)
Well, 220 likes is more than my 10-20 likes ;)
Quote
Quote
You guys have a mindset that transferred to me: I want to make something I would enjoy using, and release it when I feel that it would be a good thing to use.
It's so much more complicated than that, unfortunately... :(
Yeah, but that was just the simple explanation of it :P

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #11, on September 20th, 2012, 08:45 PM »
Quote
Like, where would I be able to see the CSS/HTML
It's running here... But there's other ways to get involved, like participating in any of the many discussions about how things should work.

Norodo

  • Oh you Baidu, so randumb. (60 sites being indexed at once? Jeez)
  • Posts: 469

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Wedge Appreciation Thread
« Reply #13, on September 21st, 2012, 12:19 AM »
Pfft. The only people who should be scared of me are people who want all the rewards without any of the work.

I also don't have any compunctions about telling people exactly what I think. I guess a lot of people are frightened of being told the truth in no uncertain terms.