« Changing from ISO-8859-15 to UTF-8
Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
PLAY GOLF on Saturn’s moons. »

[Unknown]

  • Posts: 77
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #15, on June 27th, 2011, 12:19 AM »
Quote from Arantor on June 26th, 2011, 11:59 PM
And that's because they still depend on version checking. My proposed method explicitly does NOT check for Wedge version.
Chrome doesn't do version checking.  Yet the problem still exists.
Quote from Arantor on June 26th, 2011, 11:59 PM
It probably does, I haven't spent any time in their ecosystems. But given the mods submitted, the relative skill level of the coders and so on, the majority are certainly not contributed by veteran coders.
Indeed, this is always the case.  But other forum softwares have a richer gradient of mods.  If they use file edits too, that can't be the solution to make SMF/Wedge have an ecosystem more like theirs.

Joomla also has patches.  For example, this one:

http://www.joomlatwork.com/products/free-downloads/seo-patch-joomla-15.html

Do you suppose this is a better alternative to automated file edits?  Note that they take the path of least resistance: a zip file containing the modified files, to overwrite in your installation.

I'm suggesting that you will only make this type of modification more popular (in the case that mods exist that do more than tiny things at all, so hopefully) which seems like a worse disease than the original injury.

-[Unknown]
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #16, on June 27th, 2011, 04:19 AM »
FWIW, I recalled I'd had a conversation about this sort of thing a while back re: SMF.  A quick email search later, here's a copy/paste:
Quote from "[Unknown
, 2005-02-17"]
Actually, I've messed around with doing things like this several times.  Some of the solutions I've come up with have involved reading files from a directory, serailizing the information gained from them together, and writing it to a cache (whether database, file, or otherwise.)  That may seem roudabout, but I really can't like an idea if I know it's going to be slow and less-than scalable.

Using this system, a registry in the database isn't technically needed, although it could be useful.  The gain of not having it in the database is that plugins can be loaded before the connection is made: and this would allow, as an example, plugins to mean other-database support.

But, obviously, a table has clear benefits (and makes it notably easier to upgrade plugins, which is something a lot of systems ignore!)  The downside is that all of this information is going to be needed all the time, so everything is going to have to be loaded from the table (not just some.)

...

It would also mean essentially abstracting every internal function call.  Imagine:

processFunction('db_query', 'load_settings', array("
   SELECT variable, value
   FROM {$db_prefix}settings", __FILE__, __LINE__));

Again, macros and such would make this better.  Or even just an event system:

fire_event('loaded_settings');

Although you're right, the major problem there is that the function can't mess with the local scope.  That's what I like about macros - I wish we could do this:

.. snip longish example that closures basically finally allow ...

And these could be automatically inlined during compilation, and then possibly optimized out if possible.

Anyway, I do agree that extensibility is one of the main things SMF needs to gain... I guess I'm just really hard-nosed about the common methods of doing it :P.
This was actually in reply to Joseph Fung.  I'd copy his message but I'd want to get permission first.

It's not like we thought it wasn't necessary, but there were license issues and it just got bogged down.  'Course we really liked to play around, e.g. smflib.  I had been seriously considering creating a macro language for PHP and inlining it on release, although it was probably a bad idea.

-[Unknown]

groundup

  • Posts: 25

Dragooon

  • I can code! Really!
  • polygon.com has to be one of the best sites I've seen recently.
  • Posts: 1,841
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #18, on June 27th, 2011, 04:37 PM »
While removing file edits in itself is a step backward in terms of freedom one provides to mod authors, I can see Arantor's point. I am personally with keeping file edits as everything is not always possible with hooks, but if we do keep file edits then most people will resort to directly editing files. But at the same time I do not completely like the idea of removing file edits. Perhaps if there was something in between? Like classifying mods, file edit mods are class B and totally hooked mods are class A. The reason being that I cannot see everything being done with file edits, I need file edits for WePortal which is more or less the first mod for Wedge(Unless someone beats me to it). So please keep file edits, but instead frown them upon.
The way it's meant to be

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #19, on June 27th, 2011, 05:22 PM »
We can frown upon it all we like, the fact is if it's available in the core, it will be used because so many people are used to doing it that way. It will encourage people to port from SMF, including all their bad habits, and it will encourage them to do that rather than use all the better methods that we could devise.

In which case, we might as well say fuck it and leave it how it is because that's obviously so much better.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

snoopy-virtual

  • Posts: 152
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #20, on June 27th, 2011, 07:44 PM »
My personal opinion is that if it can be done using only hooks I would prefer it.

I don't know how many hundreds of hours I have lost asking questions like "OK, let me see what Theme you are using to see why you are having problems with this mod" or "Give me the list of the mods you have in your forum to see if I can find out which one is interfering with that one", etc etc. (Of course you don't just ask those questions. After they answer you need to dig inside to find the problem and sometimes you find it in a minute and sometimes you need hours to find it).

Or the amount of hours lost updating mods every time there is a new version in SMF (not only my mods but also the mods I use in my forums that have nobody updating them just now) or helping people with less experience to update their forums.

I know for me is not going to be easy to learn how to port my SMF mods to Wedge using only hooks, but I know 3 things:

1.- If Arantor says it's possible to do it I believe it. I trust his opinion there.

2.- Learning how to do it is going to be fun (at least for me).

3.- Once I manage to do one (even if it takes me a lot of work at the beginning) I won't need to worry any more about that mod. No more updates every time there is a new version in the core. No more worries about any other plugins interfering with it or changing my plugins because they are not compatible with a particular Theme etc.
Quote from Dragooon on June 27th, 2011, 04:37 PM
The reason being that I cannot see everything being done with file edits, I need file edits for WePortal which is more or less the first mod for Wedge(Unless someone beats me to it). So please keep file edits, but instead frown them upon.
What about letting Arantor take a wee look at your code to see if he can find out how to do it using only hooks? If he has managed to do Simple Desk 2.0 (a really big mod) using only hooks he may have some ideas that could help you out there.

I could think on a few more solutions, but maybe would be better to talk about them inside the proper place in private.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #21, on June 28th, 2011, 01:18 AM »
Quote
If he has managed to do Simple Desk 2.0 (a really big mod) using only hooks he may have some ideas that could help you out there.
SD 2.0 still requires multiple file edits (which I swear I said several times) because the hooks don't exist in SMF that would be needed to make it work, and in one case the hook exists but it doesn't support the operations required by SimpleDesk.

But since it's become increasingly clear that I'm barking up another wrong tree, I might as well revert what I've done and go with my first plan of enhancing what's there and praying to $deity that my fears are baseless, except I know full well I'm right there.

Anyway. I have more alcohol to drink right now, a hangover for the morning, followed by a 200 mile road trip, just so I can go to a family funeral tomorrow, I'm looking forward to setting out in... a little over 5 hours yay. Have fun discussing it in my absence, but FWIW I already reverted the changes I made, so whatever I do when I come back will be fresh rather than deluding myself that I could fix all the problems I found with SMF, bring on all the worst problems SMF has without much of the solutions I'd hoped and believed could have been solved.

(See, Unknown's someone I look up to and when he says in not so many words that he thinks I'm working off broken logic, I tend to agree with him. Then I remember that he's younger than me and still managed to achieve so much more than I have so far, and I quietly begin to question myself. I hear my beer calling.)

snoopy-virtual

  • Posts: 152
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #22, on June 28th, 2011, 02:53 AM »
Quote
SD 2.0 still requires multiple file edits (which I swear I said several times)
Yes of course, the SMF version. But I was talking about Simple Desk for Wedge. And don't tell me that's not done yet, because I am sure it is. Maybe not physically, but it's already in your head. And I bet that version hasn't got any file edits at all.

Maybe I'm wrong but I suppose, all the time you were creating SD 2.0 for SMF, you were thinking how you could have done every small detail for the Wedge version and, all the work you have done lately here, you have done it taking into consideration all those things you were thinking while creating SD for SMF. Don't remember exactly where I have seen it, but I am sure you have said something very similar a couple of times here.
Quote
But since it's become increasingly clear that I'm barking up another wrong tree, I might as well revert what I've done and go with my first plan of enhancing what's there and praying to $deity that my fears are baseless, except I know full well I'm right there.
I think if you do that it will be a wrong move. I think the right decision was when you decided to forget completely file edits and do everything with hooks. Of course it's not up to me at all to decide what you are going to do. It's up to you.

Eros

  • I has a thought. Be afraid.
  • Posts: 56
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #23, on June 28th, 2011, 04:27 AM »
I figured I'd toss my two cents in, as someone who more or less, has always intended to go around SMF (except for bridging authentication) as much as possible. That, and I'm not a web developer, so it is easier for me to work that way and fix my own mistakes without affecting an adequate solution. I also have a tendency to react without thinking things through simply because of some of the things I've seen in my limited experience .

File edits are a pain in the ass to maintain between versions and so are hooks. I don't think either is going to change developer behavior sufficiently to be worth picking one or the other solely for that reason.

If you provide Hooks, you need to also provide File Edits to avoid Unknown's concern of people causing trouble that way.

If the real, and only concern, is the size and quality of mods...you are probably better off coming up with positive incentives to create certain types, and a certain quality, of mods rather than relying on the method of modifying Wedge to do it for you. I've got no good idea how to go about that simply because I've never tried to foster a developer community around a project outside of a situation where everyone is being paid to care about said project.
18+ Roleplay Forum <- hopefully running Wedge when it is ready.

Yaoi RP Forum <- hopefully running Wedge when it is ready.

[Unknown]

  • Posts: 77
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #24, on June 28th, 2011, 05:25 AM »
Quote from Arantor on June 28th, 2011, 01:18 AM
Anyway. I have more alcohol to drink right now, a hangover for the morning, followed by a 200 mile road trip, just so I can go to a family funeral tomorrow
Dude, don't worry about this.  Take care of that first.  This is just a discussion between peers.

Sorry to hear you've had drama.  Hope things are okay.
Quote from Arantor on June 28th, 2011, 01:18 AM
But since it's become increasingly clear that I'm barking up another wrong tree, I might as well revert what I've done and go with my first plan of enhancing what's there and praying to $deity that my fears are baseless, except I know full well I'm right there.
I tend to have strong opinions when it comes to code.  I have concerns about your approach, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.  I'm just some guy.

I agree with your concern about porting of mods.  IMHO, a way to solve that is to disable it for now, or except for specifically Wedge update packages perhaps.  Then table re-enabling it for when necessary.  Worst case, people could write a mod to add it back in, but that'd be possible anyway.  And if it turns out you're right, remove it fully, just not right away.
Quote from Arantor on June 28th, 2011, 01:18 AM
(See, Unknown's someone I look up to and when he says in not so many words that he thinks I'm working off broken logic, I tend to agree with him. Then I remember that he's younger than me and still managed to achieve so much more than I have so far, and I quietly begin to question myself. I hear my beer calling.)
For every gainful thing I have, there's a loss as well.  A discussion between peers should be based on the merits of their points; experience and even accomplishments are only resources one can draw from to build their points - but they don't make the argument alone.

-[Unknown]

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,080
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #25, on June 28th, 2011, 07:49 AM »
How old are you, Unknown?
If you're younger than Pete is, does that mean you were one of those Dragooon-like wizkids back when you started SMF?

I hate those fucking wizkids, they always end up being faster and better than me :niark:

[Unknown]

  • Posts: 77
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #26, on June 28th, 2011, 07:57 AM »
I'm 25, so I guess I was about 17 when I started working on SMF.  Certainly have learned a few things since then.

Dunno about whizzkid, essentially I spent the couple years after high school working on SMF before I got a job.  It's much easier to get a lot of things done when you don't have other obligations etc. yet.  More a function of circumstance.

-[Unknown]

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,080
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #27, on June 28th, 2011, 08:29 AM »
Always thought you'd be my age. Youngsters usually don't value privacy. :P

Then again I've had several lives before the current one. I'm younger than you when it comes to php.

Dragooon

  • I can code! Really!
  • polygon.com has to be one of the best sites I've seen recently.
  • Posts: 1,841
Re: Unknown's thoughts on Wedge
« Reply #28, on June 28th, 2011, 11:38 AM »
Quote from [Unknown
link=msg=263240 date=1309240621]
I'm 25, so I guess I was about 17 when I started working on SMF.  Certainly have learned a few things since then.

Dunno about whizzkid, essentially I spent the couple years after high school working on SMF before I got a job.  It's much easier to get a lot of things done when you don't have other obligations etc. yet.  More a function of circumstance.

-[Unknown]
You are 8 years older than me...meh old people! So you didn't got to a professional university?
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 28th, 2011, 07:49 AM
How old are you, Unknown?
If you're younger than Pete is, does that mean you were one of those Dragooon-like wizkids back when you started SMF?

I hate those fucking wizkids, they always end up being faster and better than me :niark:
Why, thank you!

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,080
« Changing from ISO-8859-15 to UTF-8
PLAY GOLF on Saturn’s moons. »