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Time offset (auto detect)
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Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #75, on March 31st, 2012, 06:47 PM »
I don't know.
I don't have that many headaches... My father had more. Then they stopped after a few decades.
In the winter I rarely open my window, too. That may have an influence. Plus, my last headache was a couple of hours after I finally committed a "working" version of reverse post order. May be stress-induced.

Farjo

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #77, on March 31st, 2012, 11:12 PM »
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Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #78, on March 31st, 2012, 11:52 PM »
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Hey Pete, doesn't it bother you that the new timezone technique will force all forum users to choose a timezone for all forums they go to...? When in many situations of the past they may have been on the same timezone as the server and not have had anything to do..? Or is a default timezone set depending on their time offset data?

* Nao is watching Saint Seiya Omega on KeyholeTV right now. Total winner.

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #79, on March 31st, 2012, 11:56 PM »
I have not yet added one on registration, which will default to the server's timezone. It does not bother me one iota that this will be the case, because other systems do this, and since it's only done on registration, users only have to do it once - and it's still more meaningful and logical than setting an offset.

No default is set based on their offset, so there will need to be some aspect of changeover for people here though IIRC it will still use a time offset if they already had one, but in due course I'll remove that and solely rely on the timezone setting. New users will, of course, then fall into having the timezone selector to deal with on registration, and we will need to add something into the importer (as mentioned earlier in this thread)
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Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #80, on April 18th, 2012, 05:03 PM »
I really can't for the life of me accept this timezone system as it is right now.

I was looking at php.net and everything, and was at a loss. What should I do?

Then I considered several solutions and would like to suggest it.
Just get the whole list of timezones, split them into continents, and offer a select box with continent categories and city names for each (sorted by name).

I'd really rather rely on Wedge asking me to say where my timezone is (Europe > Paris), rather than having to select a timezone based on whatever cities we decided to include in the list...
Heck, we could even simply ask them for their country (okay let me just type 'F' here in the dropdown list... That's it, France...), and then automatically load a list of available timezones for the country (timezone_identifiers_list(DateTimeZone::PER_COUNTRY, $country)). If there's only one, use that, otherwise show a new select box with a timezone list... (requires PHP 5.3, though. But by the time it's released, maybe we could expect it to be installed...)

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #81, on April 18th, 2012, 07:08 PM »
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I was looking at php.net and everything, and was at a loss. What should I do?
This is why it's a complete fuck up, start to finish.
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I'd really rather rely on Wedge asking me to say where my timezone is (Europe > Paris), rather than having to select a timezone based on whatever cities we decided to include in the list...
Do you *really* want to put a 470-odd long select list into the *general user area*? It's bad enough having it in the admin area.

Consider also that other forums perform just fine having multiple cities grouped together without any problems.
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Heck, we could even simply ask them for their country (okay let me just type 'F' here in the dropdown list... That's it, France...), and then automatically load a list of available timezones for the country
If you want to do it, go nuts. Ever delving into timezones is one of the (very few) things I've ever regretted taking on with Wedge. The entire situation is a fucking mess, long before we came along, Just remember that whatever you do, you're cleaning up an operation that users will only see on registration and when they delve into their profile, they won't see it the rest of the time.

Have fun with managing that 470-odd list down into the groups you're hoping for, it took me long enough to compile the list I had.

(Sorry for my attitude, I'm tired, achy, pissed off with the weather here and I have other stuff going on out here in RL that's bugging me, like the fact that I'm in the process of taking my name off the house that I bought almost 5 years ago as the place I wanted to spend the rest of my life :()

Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #82, on April 19th, 2012, 06:11 PM »
Quote from Arantor on April 18th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Do you *really* want to put a 470-odd long select list into the *general user area*? It's bad enough having it in the admin area.
Actually, it's 580+... I don't know why everyone in their samples, including you, insist on forgetting about that (admittedly very small but still a bit more important than Antarctica), continent called Africa...?
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Consider also that other forums perform just fine having multiple cities grouped together without any problems.
I don't know, never seen that on other forums really.
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If you want to do it, go nuts. Ever delving into timezones is one of the (very few) things I've ever regretted taking on with Wedge.
Can't you just revert it...? I know most people wouldn't mind :P
Just keep to the server's timezone, and adjust user settings with the time offset... Voilà. If they ever get diverging hours (because of time savings), they can simply update their account page.
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The entire situation is a fucking mess, long before we came along, Just remember that whatever you do, you're cleaning up an operation that users will only see on registration and when they delve into their profile, they won't see it the rest of the time.
Sure. But I'd like to point out that when someone gets lost into a complicated select box, they may not want to proceed at all... (Well, it's more likely they'll just choose a random timezone, but the first experience is crucial for users...)

https://bitbucket.org/pellepim/jstimezonedetect/raw/6c845a1f02b7/detect_timezone.js

This fun little script will try and detect the user's actual time zone. It would be nice to simply run it at registration time, and use it to select a default timezone for the user...

BTW, head to the admin area. I implemented the continent separator into the Manage Server page.
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Have fun with managing that 470-odd list down into the groups you're hoping for, it took me long enough to compile the list I had.
I remember that... And for now we'll keep to it. I'd just like to be sure there isn't a better solution here. :)
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(Sorry for my attitude, I'm tired, achy, pissed off with the weather here and I have other stuff going on out here in RL that's bugging me, like the fact that I'm in the process of taking my name off the house that I bought almost 5 years ago as the place I wanted to spend the rest of my life :()
You don't have to say you're sorry. I'm well aware of how touchy you are these days... ;)

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #83, on April 19th, 2012, 07:37 PM »
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Actually, it's 580+... I don't know why everyone in their samples, including you, insist on forgetting about that (admittedly very small but still a bit more important than Antarctica), continent called Africa...?
Actually, Africa IS listed. I see West Central Africa (UTC+1), South Africa Standard Time (UTC+2) plus places like Cairo that are in Africa last I checked.

Yes, it is 580+, but there are dozens that are legacy and deprecated.
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I don't know, never seen that on other forums really.
XenForo and phpBB do it. Hell, even Windows, Mac OS X and Ubuntu do it.
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Just keep to the server's timezone, and adjust user settings with the time offset... Voilà. If they ever get diverging hours (because of time savings), they can simply update their account page.
If you want to revert it, revert it. But I'm at the stage where I'm fed up with timezones and like other stuff I've done today, I'm a bit fed up with writing off chunks of my life as gigantic wastes of time, I still want to believe it isn't a waste of effort.

But I'd like for it to be correct, since everyone else can get it right and I don't see why we can't. I just haven't finished working on it, but hey, I guess I can remove all that and be done with it. I wonder if there's anything else that's a waste of my time working on.
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I remember that... And for now we'll keep to it. I'd just like to be sure there isn't a better solution here. :)
There are three solutions: providing a fuck off big list to users that requires minimal work from us but looks ugly (like in the admin panel), providing a much shorter and more manageable list (like in the profile area, like XenForo, like phpBB, like Windows, like OS X, like Ubuntu) or we can revert to this unintuitive pile of crap that doesn't even work properly for countries that don't have hour-boundary places (like SMF)

An improvement to use proper timezones has been requested many times before for SMF but no-one's willing to take it on, because it's a minefield, and until recently SMF has been supporting prior to PHP 5.1 where all the date stuff was properly implemented.

Still, if you're happy with the shitty method, go revert it.

(I, on the other hand, will be going to find a drink to calm the fuck down. I should remember not to go visit certain people to sort out disentangling myself from my old life. Still, that should be dealt with soon enough and I can just start trying to forget the last 10 years.)

Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #84, on April 21st, 2012, 10:08 PM »
Quote from Arantor on April 19th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Actually, Africa IS listed. I see West Central Africa (UTC+1), South Africa Standard Time (UTC+2) plus places like Cairo that are in Africa last I checked.
I just checked and there's only Africa/Cairo, which is not visible if you remove the Africa region manually...?
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Yes, it is 580+, but there are dozens that are legacy and deprecated.
They're usually in 'Other', which is removed manually, right...?
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XenForo and phpBB do it. Hell, even Windows, Mac OS X and Ubuntu do it.
Yes, but Windows (I only know of Windows) guesses my timezone automatically -- probably because of my language more than anything... French => France => Only one timezone? We're good to go. Heck, maybe it could be implemented as well here... i.e. take the 'big' countries that have only one timezone, and try to set them by default according to the language... (and/or with regards to the timezone evaluated through time offsets.)
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If you want to revert it, revert it.
That's not what I said...
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There are three solutions: providing a fuck off big list to users that requires minimal work from us but looks ugly (like in the admin panel), providing a much shorter and more manageable list (like in the profile area, like XenForo, like phpBB, like Windows, like OS X, like Ubuntu) or we can revert to this unintuitive pile of crap that doesn't even work properly for countries that don't have hour-boundary places (like SMF)
...Or have a large list that is only loaded through Ajax and, while we're at it -- selects the 'most likely' timezone as default...

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #85, on April 21st, 2012, 10:25 PM »
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I just checked and there's only Africa/Cairo, which is not visible if you remove the Africa region manually...?
Where are you looking? I was looking at the profile area, for which the list I used seems to cover it.
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They're usually in 'Other', which is removed manually, right...?
There's Other, there's Etc and some other random ones.
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Yes, but Windows (I only know of Windows) guesses my timezone automatically -- probably because of my language more than anything... French => France => Only one timezone? We're good to go. Heck, maybe it could be implemented as well here... i.e. take the 'big' countries that have only one timezone, and try to set them by default according to the language... (and/or with regards to the timezone evaluated through time offsets.)
Yes, it is mostly because of your language. And as such it generally gets mine right because I tell it to use English (British) for language. But we don't ask for language on registration at this time, and that's only any good if you have a bunch of languages installed anyway, something that won't necessarily be the case.
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...Or have a large list that is only loaded through Ajax and, while we're at it -- selects the 'most likely' timezone as default...
Given that there's two places I'd want to do this, I don't really want to do either by AJAX, and in any case I still don't want to provide a list of hundreds of items, because it's just not ideal for users. I'm not even that comfortable with a list of 75 or so items, let alone in the region of 500.

Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #86, on April 21st, 2012, 11:09 PM »
- admin area. That's where you forgot Africa ;)

- we don't ask for language but we have the browser's default language at that point... Including regional languages :) eg Quebec.

- then selective Ajax maybe? Ie select continent then we load their timezone list via Ajax. Although it makes it hard to at a default zone with the browser language.

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #87, on April 21st, 2012, 11:20 PM »
Ugh, that's the last time I rely on code posted on php.net :/

We have the browser's default language, yes. It's a starting point, perhaps, but I'd argue it's even more insane and effort intensive than using the list I already did, seeing how there's many different language codes, that's a couple of hundred in memory serves, and I *really* don't want to go through the codes to figure out what timezones might be applicable.

That also assumes that the timezone is right. What happens if, say, I take my laptop (which is set to en_GB) to America? All of a sudden it's now very wrong ;) That's an extreme and unlikely case but it's why you can't truly risk selective AJAX. But I wouldn't be opposed to two dropdowns, the second populated by the first (e.g. continent => region)

Mind you, what's actually so wrong with a single dropdown? I can put in a nice graphical map if that would help?

Nao

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #88, on April 23rd, 2012, 05:58 PM »
Quote from Arantor on April 21st, 2012, 11:20 PM
Ugh, that's the last time I rely on code posted on php.net :/
You can rely on it... Just re-read it to be sure :P
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We have the browser's default language, yes. It's a starting point, perhaps, but I'd argue it's even more insane and effort intensive than using the list I already did, seeing how there's many different language codes, that's a couple of hundred in memory serves, and I *really* don't want to go through the codes to figure out what timezones might be applicable.
Then at least getting the timezone approximately right would be better than nothing I suppose...?
new Date().getTimezoneOffset() would get our timezone, and we'd just need to select the first entry in the select box that matches the timezone... (Only if no timezone is already selected, of course.)
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Mind you, what's actually so wrong with a single dropdown? I can put in a nice graphical map if that would help?
I'm just not sure whether we account for everyone...

Then again, I registered on a phpBB website today, and it had a timezone list, and oh hell, the actual option values are *timezone offsets*... Which is not exactly great for daylight savings ;)

Arantor

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Re: Time offset (auto detect)
« Reply #89, on April 25th, 2012, 05:44 PM »
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Then at least getting the timezone approximately right would be better than nothing I suppose...?
If 'getting it approximately right' is acceptable, why bother with timezones anywhere and simply just use time offset? (I could just ignore the server time, force it set to UTC, not have a server time offset and just simply have everyone set their own time offset from that, but that would be unpleasant)
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Then again, I registered on a phpBB website today, and it had a timezone list, and oh hell, the actual option values are *timezone offsets*... Which is not exactly great for daylight savings
Oh, I didn't look at the actual options in a phpBB website registration, but the presentation is still very much the same thing. (And DST is why time offset is fundamentally broken.)
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