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Costa

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Translation
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:25 AM »
I'm registered and reading this forum around 20 months. God, so many time :P

I'm interested in Wedge. I ask Santa Claus to transform Peter and Nao in Mighty Robots that can work 24/7 and finish this fork faster. But Santa didn't listen to me. I ask to be millionare too. BAD SANTA!

I want to translate this software into my language. But I don't want you guys make the same mistakes that SMF.org is doing(at least with my language).

So guys, what do you already have in mind for translators? Do you will provide full support for us? Do you will give hugs and kisses?

Talk to me, and you will have Wedge in portuguese.

Or don't talk, I will translate Wedge anyway.

Arantor

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Re: Translation
« Reply #1, on January 18th, 2013, 02:37 AM »
Bad Santa indeed!

OK, so right now there's still a lot of upheaval in language strings, additions, changes, deletions and so on that we've very firmly resisted encouraging translators *at this time*. We'd hate for you to do translations, only for us while still in busy and major development to go and uproot things - we've seen first hand how aggravating it is to have your work upturned by someone else doing what they were doing.

When we're further along (ideally beta, when we're not actively adding lots of huge changes), then we'll be looking at getting translation services going for people who want to translate. That means we can get all the major feature changes out of the way happily, then move on towards building something to support the translators who are doing translations.

There are a huge number of things that are rather different in Wedge, but the ones that are truly important for translators to understand:

* each language needs a flag, ideally from the FamFamFam Flags set but in some cases we'll do others, and if it's not in FamFamFam, we'll need to ensure there is permission to distribute the icon with the language pack

* each language only needs UTF-8

* each language supports a variety of fun constructions for different numbers and so on - for example from the English pack we have:
Code: [Select]
$txt['num_posts'] = array(0 => 'No posts', 1 => '1 post', 'n' => '%s posts');

The way this part works is that you can have different phrases depending on the different numbers required - some languages will need different phrases for 0, 1, 2 or more items, as well as a generic one for any number. There are quite a few instances of this in the language files.


In the interim, I would note that there are things I would like some input on that help get us to a beta stage - in your language, what areas have proven most difficult to provide proper translations? One of the biggest issues for i18n is the use of compound phrases, where bits of a phrase are joined together in English, but this won't work in other languages - is this common in Portuguese?

Also, specific to Portuguese, is the whole _pt vs _br thing that big a deal? Would it not make more sense to have a single Portuguese translation? I'm not trying to single out Portuguese specifically, just that it's your point of reference, and that I'm intentionally trying to keep everyone's workload as sane as possible. If only one language pack will do the trick, let's only do it once.
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Costa

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Re: Translation
« Reply #2, on January 18th, 2013, 03:22 AM »
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* each language needs a flag, ideally from the FamFamFam Flags set but in some cases we'll do others, and if it's not in FamFamFam, we'll need to ensure there is permission to distribute the icon with the language pack
No problem for portuguese brands.
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* each language only needs UTF-8
That's awesome. But you need to figure out a way where translator can insert their special carahteres without the utf-8 code.
For example, I want to write "dog" in portuguese. I want to write "Cão" and not "C&#227";o. Do you understand what I mean? For me it's not a problem at all. I'm thinking in other that don't know the utf-8 "alphabet".
Quote
* each language supports a variety of fun constructions for different numbers and so on - for example from the English pack we have:
Code: [Select]
$txt['num_posts'] = array(0 => 'No posts', 1 => '1 post', 'n' => '%s posts');
*_* sexy!1!1!1!!
That mean no more "topic(s)". Awesome.
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In the interim, I would note that there are things I would like some input on that help get us to a beta stage - in your language, what areas have proven most difficult to provide proper translations? One of the biggest issues for i18n is the use of compound phrases, where bits of a phrase are joined together in English, but this won't work in other languages - is this common in Portuguese?
The most difficult part in my language is some expressions that have translation but anyone use the portuguese word. Like Download. Is english, we have translation for that, but anyone use it. So it's a dilemma. Use the portuguese word and anyone will know what the hell is, or use the english word and everybody know what it is.
But if you give me one example, I will say with 100% sure if it will be a problem in Wedge.
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Also, specific to Portuguese, is the whole _pt vs _br thing that big a deal? Would it not make more sense to have a single Portuguese translation? I'm not trying to single out Portuguese specifically, just that it's your point of reference, and that I'm intentionally trying to keep everyone's workload as sane as possible. If only one language pack will do the trick, let's only do it once.
Ok. In theory there only exist one language. Portuguese. And nowadays only onde brand. The problem is that in Portugal we don't write our sentences like the brazilians, and we don't like to read brazilian portuguese. The opposite is also true.
Also, only in next generation the gramatic will be standard like the politicians want. Why? Because I learn portuguese 20 years ago. I will not re-learn how to write with almost 30 years old.

It's like someone say to you, "Peter, from this day you need to write US Style in every place". And you will say: "GTFO"

When you read a text in portuguese, you know if it was a brazilian guy or a portuguese guy who wrote. Like if you read some english text, and you know if it was a Irish guys who wrote, or some american. Ok, not like this, but you understand what I mean.

So, at least for now(and for many years, I mean, MANY years), two brands are necessary.

Arantor

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Re: Translation
« Reply #3, on January 18th, 2013, 04:28 AM »
Quote
That's awesome. But you need to figure out a way where translator can insert their special carahteres without the utf-8 code.
For example, I want to write "dog" in portuguese. I want to write "Cão" and not "C&#227";o. Do you understand what I mean? For me it's not a problem at all. I'm thinking in other that don't know the utf-8 "alphabet".
I do understand what you mean, and I'm sure we'll figure something out. I don't know what yet, but there's time before we get there.
Quote
*_* sexy!1!1!1!!
That mean no more "topic(s)". Awesome.
Yeah, I was very sensitive to that in general, especially knowing the problems that trying to impose English grammar can cause.
Quote
But if you give me one example, I will say with 100% sure if it will be a problem in Wedge.
Well... we already fixed some of them, e.g. the mashup that is the board index and to a lesser degree the info centre.
Quote
Ok. In theory there only exist one language. Portuguese. And nowadays only onde brand. The problem is that in Portugal we don't write our sentences like the brazilians, and we don't like to read brazilian portuguese. The opposite is also true.
I did wonder, hence asking rather than assuming; I'd rather do something once if that's a valid option but two sounds firmly like it'd be better.
Quote
It's like someone say to you, "Peter, from this day you need to write US Style in every place". And you will say: "GTFO"
Well, I don't say that, but I understand fully; the SMF codebase had Americanisms in it, all the language files were Americanised too and more than once I've written UK English almost automatically rather than properly using American English - and Nao corrects me when I do. Usually with a modest oath of some kind!

But yeah, we have the same problem - US vs UK English, and there's things we can do about that too.

OK, so next question, how different are the two? Are we talking every string, substantial (more than 50% different), modest (30% different), minor (10% different) or occasional (a few times a file) differences? I don't need figures, just a rough approximation of how big the problem is, because depending on how we play it, this might turn out to be a fairly simple problem to solve.
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So, at least for now(and for many years, I mean, MANY years), two brands are necessary.
Yup, just as UK vs US English is going to remain that way for a very very long time.

Hristo

  • Posts: 19
Re: Translation
« Reply #4, on January 18th, 2013, 04:37 AM »
I was thinking to start a thread about this topic, so will use the chance to ask something:
Are there any SMF strings left or translation needs to start from scratch?

Arantor

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Re: Translation
« Reply #5, on January 18th, 2013, 04:39 AM »
There are some SMF strings left untouched, but exactly what's left is unknown and what will *be* left afterwards is also unknown.

Costa

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Re: Translation
« Reply #6, on January 18th, 2013, 04:54 AM »
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I do understand what you mean, and I'm sure we'll figure something out. I don't know what yet, but there's time before we get there.
Maybe a conversor like this?
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Yeah, I was very sensitive to that in general, especially knowing the problems that trying to impose English grammar can cause.
You would not imagine that in portuguese. Small example: Message/Messages | Mensagem/Mensagens
In plural, the M will tunr in N
Quote
Well... we already fixed some of them, e.g. the mashup that is the board index and to a lesser degree the info centre.
Don't seem a problem to me.
Quote
I did wonder, hence asking rather than assuming; I'd rather do something once if that's a valid option but two sounds firmly like it'd be better.
Yeah. You did well.
Quote
Well, I don't say that, but I understand fully; the SMF codebase had Americanisms in it, all the language files were Americanised too and more than once I've written UK English almost automatically rather than properly using American English - and Nao corrects me when I do. Usually with a modest oath of some kind!
It was an expression. And Nao is a lovely guy lol
Quote
OK, so next question, how different are the two? Are we talking every string, substantial (more than 50% different), modest (30% different), minor (10% different) or occasional (a few times a file) differences? I don't need figures, just a rough approximation of how big the problem is, because depending on how we play it, this might turn out to be a fairly simple problem to solve.
Both countrys can understand each other without any problem in 99.9999999% of the sentences. The problem is slang. But we will not using it in this kind of translation.

The problem here is the confort when you read. In user point of view, you can use pt_pt or pt_br. It's pointless. For admins it's a little bit different. I'd say between 25-30% different. But understandable.

If you put that decision on me, I would say it's better for Wedge use the pt_br brand instead pt_pt. Why? Brazil has 200 million people, Portugal 10 million(with PALOP around 30 million).
BUT, the language is portuguese, not brazilian. It's more correct use the portuguese brand.

The main point is: the two countries speak and write different. They say the same thing with different words variation.

An example.
I'm going.
pt_pt - Eu estou a ir.
pt_pt - Eu estou indo.

If you want to know more about the portuguese orthographic agreement...
http://portuguese-american-journal.com/oa-portuguese-spelling-reform-takes-effect-portugal/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Language_Orthographic_Agreement_of_1990

Hristo

  • Posts: 19
Re: Translation
« Reply #7, on January 18th, 2013, 09:01 AM »
Quote from Arantor on January 18th, 2013, 04:28 AM
Quote
That's awesome. But you need to figure out a way where translator can insert their special carahteres without the utf-8 code.
For example, I want to write "dog" in portuguese. I want to write "Cão" and not "C&#227";o. Do you understand what I mean? For me it's not a problem at all. I'm thinking in other that don't know the utf-8 "alphabet".
I do understand what you mean, and I'm sure we'll figure something out. I don't know what yet, but there's time before we get there.
Excuse my ignorance, I'm new in this and maybe that is why I fail to see the problem here. I'm using the Cyrillic alphabet and my SMF forum is set as utf-8. I often translate mods and untranslated/mistranslated strings in the language pack. Bulgarian has not that many special characters and they are used rarely, but still I have never used the codes instead of direct inputs. I checked the Portuguese SMF lang pack and all the special Latin characters are input directly. Why Wedge would have a problem with that?!

..... or you are talking about the cases where the user's keyboard has no preset special characters?!

Or I'm so ignorant that I even can't understand what are you talking about :)...

Dragooon

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Re: Translation
« Reply #8, on January 18th, 2013, 02:19 PM »
Quote from Hristo on January 18th, 2013, 09:01 AM
Quote from Arantor on January 18th, 2013, 04:28 AM
Quote
That's awesome. But you need to figure out a way where translator can insert their special carahteres without the utf-8 code.
For example, I want to write "dog" in portuguese. I want to write "Cão" and not "C&#227";o. Do you understand what I mean? For me it's not a problem at all. I'm thinking in other that don't know the utf-8 "alphabet".
I do understand what you mean, and I'm sure we'll figure something out. I don't know what yet, but there's time before we get there.
Excuse my ignorance, I'm new in this and maybe that is why I fail to see the problem here. I'm using the Cyrillic alphabet and my SMF forum is set as utf-8. I often translate mods and untranslated/mistranslated strings in the language pack. Bulgarian has not that many special characters and they are used rarely, but still I have never used the codes instead of direct inputs. I checked the Portuguese SMF lang pack and all the special Latin characters are input directly. Why Wedge would have a problem with that?!

..... or you are talking about the cases where the user's keyboard has no preset special characters?!

Or I'm so ignorant that I even can't understand what are you talking about :)...
I'm fairly sure he meant when the user doesn't know how to actually type the special character (via keyboard or through Alt codes) and would, instead, generally type the character code.
The way it's meant to be

MultiformeIngegno

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Re: Translation
« Reply #9, on January 18th, 2013, 04:21 PM »
I'll be happy to provide a good Italian translation (I did a lot of the SMF one). :)

Hristo

  • Posts: 19
Re: Translation
« Reply #10, on January 18th, 2013, 04:41 PM »
Quote from Dragooon on January 18th, 2013, 02:19 PM
I'm fairly sure he meant when the user doesn't know how to actually type the special character (via keyboard or through Alt codes) and would, instead, generally type the character code.
If that is the case (though I do not see this as Wedge's specific problem) there are quite many code <-> character converters that can be used.
Re: Translation
« Reply #11, on May 27th, 2014, 12:32 PM »
I've started working on a translation to Norwegian bokmål.
Is that just silly of me? I.e. are things still very much in flux, text-wise?

Also, I see you're using Transifex to facilitate translations. I guess that means all the work is (or at least can be) web-based?
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