« I can add... oh wait...
Viewing IP addresses and banning
Getting ready for an alpha release: WeCSS/Wess improvements »

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Viewing IP addresses and banning
« on December 17th, 2012, 01:49 AM »
So I ran into a headache with bans.

In Wedge[1] viewing of IP address is its own permission. This is, generally, a good thing because of all the people who want to hide IP addresses every which way.

But banning is a separate permission. Now, while it's somewhat unlikely, I can envisage the situation where someone has the power to ban but no ability to see IP addresses, which means it's somewhat dangerous giving them IP addresses as a ban target since they won't have that information.

This leads me to one of three things:

1. Requiring both view-any IP and ban permission to actually ban. (Seems to me it will cause support topics)

2. Making it so the ban UI doesn't allow them to create/edit IP/hostname bans if they don't have the power to see IP addresses. (Complicated)

3. Not having the IP visibility permission at all and tying it to the ban permission.

See, here's the thing. I have no idea what the point of having IP addresses visible anywhere is (not even in the likes of track IP or even moderation log) if you can't do anything with it. Seems to me that the only thing that actually really makes use of it is banning, and if you can ban, you can see all IP addresses - and if you can't ban, you can't see them. I'm struggling to envisage any case at all where you would need IP addresses but not the power to ban, more importantly what can you do with an IP address if you *can't* ban anyway?
 1. SMF doesn't do it this way, it ties the permission to moderate_forum.
When we unite against a common enemy that attacks our ethos, it nurtures group solidarity. Trolls are sensational, yes, but we keep everyone honest. | Game Memorial

live627

  • Should five per cent appear too small / Be thankful I don't take it all / 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman
  • Posts: 1,670
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #1, on December 17th, 2012, 02:17 AM »
Quote
what can you do with an IP address if you *can't* ban anyway?
Let's say one sees suspicious activity  from a user. They have the IP with which to look up and determine iff that address is used for malicious wrongdoings. They then can report the activity to a higher-up, who may be offline at the time.
A confident man keeps quiet.whereas a frightened man keeps talking, hiding his fear.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #2, on December 17th, 2012, 02:27 AM »
If you see suspicious activity, you can report it to a higher-up without an IP address. Either way even if you spot said activity, you'd still have to report it higher up because even if you could see it, you might not be able to do anything about it.

spoogs

  • Posts: 417
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #3, on December 17th, 2012, 05:27 AM »
How about banning by ip be an admin only option. Even if user has permission to view ip and permission to ban, if they think an ip ban ip ban is warranted they simply have someone with allowed to admin execute the ip ban.

That would work for me at least
Stick a fork in it SMF

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #4, on December 17th, 2012, 05:29 AM »
That's basically the same thing as option 2. It's doable but it's messy because of the way the ban system works - they'd still potentially be shown that other bans exist, they'd just not be able to edit or remove them, or create new IP/hostname bans.

But that doesn't solve the problem, really. So banning by IP is admin only. Why do we still need to give non-admins IP addresses if admins are the only ones that can actually use them for anything meaningful?

spoogs

  • Posts: 417
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #5, on December 17th, 2012, 05:35 AM »
We are certainly in agreement there. Only ip viewing permission I've ever granted us view own. Maybe someone else can answer this
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #6, on December 17th, 2012, 11:52 AM »
I am a moderator on a users forum about a cable provider and I am glad I can see the IP address.
The cable provider has personnel from his helpdesk officially posting on the forum, but they also use "undercover" people, trying to influence the direction a topic is going, which I recognize by the used IP address (from there main office).
I also use the IP addresses to recognize if a member uses internet from the cable provider the forum is about, or a other provider.
Sometimes it's nice to know who your dealing with.

PS
The provider uses dynamic IP addresses so I very seldom use an IP ban. The bad people have I new one in no time and I end up blocking innocent people.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #7, on December 17th, 2012, 12:18 PM »
So the theory holds up, you can see addresses and you can ban people. If you had ban power in Wedge, nothing would change from where I'm standing.

spoogs

  • Posts: 417
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #8, on December 17th, 2012, 02:28 PM »
When i was a moderator was not able to see ip addresses but could issue bans (this was in vb) based on a points system. When i became a super moderator then i was able to view and issue ip bans.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #9, on December 17th, 2012, 02:31 PM »
Issuing bans via points is no different to issuing warnings in any substantial sense. They are two different systems entirely, and that is where it will be going in Wedge.

spoogs

  • Posts: 417
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #10, on December 17th, 2012, 02:44 PM »
I got that. I was making reference  to being able to issue bans without being able to see ip addresses.

We all use forums so differently i have no clue whats best. I'm  sure someone will come along who wants users to see the ip addresses before t not have permission to ban.

In the situation i mentioned above they did that way to ensure a higher up agreed when an ip ban was requested. It did have it's limitations as there were times when i was the only moderator available (especially on a weekend) and requested an ip ban and no super was available until Monday and some silly user would just go nuts til then.

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #11, on December 17th, 2012, 03:09 PM »
Different kind of ban ;) The per-user thing is not exactly a ban as such, it is a per-account limitation, while bans are - well, bans.

godboko71

  • Fence accomplished!
  • Hello
  • Posts: 361
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #12, on December 17th, 2012, 04:34 PM »
From my point of few any forum I admin I and other admins are the only ones that can issue bans or see an IP address. I don't wan to worry about the privacy concerns letting non owner/admins access to IP addresses. Plus we never issue IP bans they are pointless with 20-30% of our traffic now coming from mobile browsing and another 60% coming from ISP'd that use dynamic IP addresses. Maybe 10% of our userbase comes from dedicated IP's and the majority of those come from University and Businesses.
Thank you,
Boko

spoogs

  • Posts: 417
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #13, on December 17th, 2012, 08:15 PM »
Quote from Arantor on April 19th, 1974, 04:48 AM
The per-user thing is not exactly a ban as such, it is a per-account limitation, while bans are - well, bans.
For my knowledge what's the difference?
I'm asking based on the premise that the system was set so that user would be permanently "banned" after x number of points. They couldnt login or anything.
Posted: December 17th, 2012, 08:13 PM

Think i actually got it.

As described above the user us simply restricted from loging in and such where as an ip ban would say restrict them from accessing the site.

??

Arantor

  • As powerful as possible, as complex as necessary.
  • Posts: 14,278
Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
« Reply #14, on December 17th, 2012, 08:22 PM »
I didn't realise vBulletin points bans were actually up to the stage of preventing even logins, I assumed they were like SMF warnings where you could prevent posting but not prevent logins - whereupon they are two separate things.

I'm still trying to figure some of this stuff for Wedge though.
« I can add... oh wait...
Getting ready for an alpha release: WeCSS/Wess improvements »