Wedge

They are separate entities, and this is compounded by the apparent skills gap even between the Customizers around now, and what there was when I was a Customizer back in 2009.

Once upon a time I believe they were more intermixed than they are now.

Me? No, but it's not because of that. Me returning to SMF as a developer would limit what I can do with Wedge, I can't commit time as a developer to both, it wouldn't be fair on whichever project I'm not writing code for at the time, and I can't do that in good conscience. There are various other technical issues with doing that, namely the differences in code base.Therein lies the problem. SMF needs to find people that have the skill, the time, the passion etc. to make it happen - the project needs developers far more than the developers need SMF, and that's a hurdle that is not insurmountable, but it's big enough.

I would note, I have heard from several current team members that they would be quite enthusiastic about seeing me back on the SMF team - there is sufficient change from how it was a few years ago about people coming and going that gives me hope, but that's not the biggest problem any more.

You have a twisted sense of humour, TE :P

If you don't see disagreements as a Grudge, do you see them as a Thantos or an Orstio? :P

Don't forget there is also a language and cultural barrier at play. I'm British, sarcasm and passive aggression are vital survival skills here. I'm not sure where Suki's from but Spanish seems to be her main language, so what might be considered patronising to an English speaker might be construed as a personal attack to someone who has English as a second language. I can see at times how that might be the case.The really sad part is that this is nothing new. These same arguments have been running for years in one form or another, and I'm glad you've said the above - because it was only a matter of time before I started saying much the same things, though perhaps with a little more subtlety ;) Though, you've hit all the nails on the head with the problems SMF has.

One man does not make a team, and it's not really down to specific statements from any individuals - and that's where it really grates, is because it's so subtle, but so present. It is a closing of ranks, of stonewalling, and similar behaviours - but you have to be on the other side of it to realise it's going on. I suspect half the time the people doing it don't even realise they're doing it.

There are events I won't go into about political machinations, even down to someone admitting to me that they had had a hand in rigging team leader elections by 'encouraging' people to vote in certain lines with the intent of pushing the project forward. I mention this because it is the sort of behaviour that got things to where they are - non-visible signs of people acting with an agenda that serves to close ranks.


There is a sad corollary to this tale. Earlier on today someone who saw this thread, who shall remain nameless (save for the fact they are outside the SMF team), suggested that I step up to the plate as SMF dev, because I have the skills, I have the ability and you KNOW I'm not going to stand for this kind of crap. I said no to the person suggesting it, mostly because I'm far happier with Wedge, but that's really the sort of change that's needed now.

I think the only way to make SMF work is for someone with the skills, the time, and the balls to tell the management to get stuffed when it counts, to step up as lead dev. Ema's too nice for that, Lab doesn't have the skills or experience for it. I don't particularly want the job either because I'd much rather not have to split my time between SMF and Wedge, but if SMF is going to be saved, it's going to take someone like me to do it, someone with the charisma to engage people and motivate, someone with the skills to put their money where their mouth is and someone who ultimately can deliver in spite of management.

The person who suggested this course of action also suggested that perhaps the only way to save SMF is for Wedge to become SMF 3.0 - it is after all a natural conclusion to come to and it's been rather understated.

I think it's fairly clear to say that that isn't going to happen, but not because I'd veto it (I'm not entirely sure how Nao feels on the subject). The Wedge brand is growing, and we're happy with what we have here, and I only dread to think how much work would be required in renaming it back, not to mention engineering everything from 2.1 into Wedge (since we haven't adopted SCEditor or anything, though I'm sorely tempted to), not to mention the freedom that being here gives me that being at SMF wouldn't, as previously discussed. This is assuming I could put my personal pride aside, and my ego, but that's my problem, not SMF's.

There's your answer, folks. SMF will wither and fail after 2.1 unless it can recruit some serious talent, but there's no talent up to scratch coming up through the community, and the only talent that has the skills has sufficiently been alienated by past history that they'd never take up the mantle. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.

It's on a knife edge, and it may yet be saved, but I think something akin to a divine intervention is what's needed. There are people who could help, but they need reaching out to, and they're going to need assurances that it won't be like before - and they won't be ready to believe you. But as I see it, that's the only real future prospects SMF has.

No... you open phpMyAdmin, click on the database, find wedge_settings, then go through the wedge_settings table until you find a row where the 'variable' column has an entry of 'default_index', then you click on the edit button for that row and change the value from Welcome to Home.

Yes, of course we are. That's the point. Non devs, generally, don't get it. Ego is part of what we do, and if you don't have a strong ego, fair chances your code isn't that strong either. The problem is when ego starts writing checks that your skills can't cash.This in spades. It's interesting to note that a few weeks ago I had this argument with people who aren't even team members, trying to explain why it couldn't be run like a corporation.There are a number of talented devs who've come through the SMF doors. Interesting how none of them are sticking around. We can't all be poisonous. I know I can be but usually only after eating too many sprouts.I deliberately skirted round dragging you into this, because I wasn't sure what you were doing and didn't want to drag you back into the madhouse if you'd escaped and weren't interested in being part of the madhouse.

Dialogo/Elkarte is a very specific beast. I haven't joined because I don't want to crowd them, though I commented on a few things on Github. It has certain roads it is going to walk down, lead by Norv. They're roads I don't particularly care to share, but that's down to me. I do get the impression that you might feel happier staying out of it, though.There has been a tremendous lack of direction for years. The sad part is that the phase we're in now is possibly one of the more phases of direction it's *had* in years. At least it has some kind of direction.There are none so blind as those who will not see.Yup, another for the list of people who came up through the ranks and put their time into various things.

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Some of the differences of opinion are just that - simple differences in opinion, and that's what makes life so interesting. But there's differences of opinion, and DIFFERENCES OF OPINION. It comes back to something I've observed a great many times - that people don't know how to communicate very well.

There are things I've done, and things Nao's done that we've individually disliked the other going off and doing. But even though I might disagree with what he did or he disagrees with what I'm doing, there's always respect, and there's always an understanding that the disagreements are not personal.

Extrapolating this a bit, I see a lot of arguments where people don't seem to be able to handle disagreeing with an idea vs ignoring an idea. If I make an observation about the characteristics of something, that's fine. If it disagrees with where you want to take it, also fine - but when you're taking it where you're taking it, be sure to take what I've said into account. It may change your direction, it might not, but you can explain that you disagree with me without making me feel like it was a waste of my time introducing my observations. This is something lacking in a lot of arguments.

I disagree, for example, with how SMF is implementing hooks in SMF 2.1. I've explained my concerns with the proposals, and that's fine. They can still do it how they were going to do it, and that's also fine. But if they run into the problems I outlined, I'm not going to be very impressed if they start whining about it when they get there. It's the proverbial "I told you so" moment, and it's not even a smug triumphant one, but an understated and sanguine one.This is part of the problem. Kindred seems to be labouring under the idea that devs don't care about team input, which is a long way short of reality, but there you go. The problem is when everyone on the team seems to believe their opinion is as valid as the devs - so that what the other team members say should be done gets prioritised.

Here's the thing. When we introduce new ideas and concepts, we introduce them but we don't entirely open the floor. We open the floor for feedback, discussion and so on, but it's not likely that what ends up getting written will be too far from what was discussed. This is an example of what I'm on about - I'll open the floor, let people have their say and take it into account when polishing it - even if I don't agree with where they're trying to take it. SMF hasn't learned that ability yet.Because SMF is too conservative. SMF with a gallery built in? What fresh hell is this?! It's also something I've found very ironic - that SMF chose to have freedom but it refuses to embrace it with all that goes with it.

Wedge is one direction, Elkarte is another, bloQS is another. These may be partially or completely mutually exclusive - so SMF does nothing and sits with what is safe. But the rest of us do something not safe, but what we learned from the journey, we're not encouraged to share, and in some cases have been actively discouraged from so doing. It's like they embraced the name of freedom but not the spirit somehow, which is a shame.