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Messages - Arantor
1891
Other software / Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« on January 18th, 2013, 05:15 AM »
Even I'm amazed at where this is going, and I thought SMF couldn't get much lower - it's like the bad penny that keeps coming back. I got nothing to add, because the people who need to make changes aren't listening to what we've been saying (because it reiterates what Suki says right there, though I didn't suggest the pushing-it-now-it's-open-source, mostly because that's saying 'we finally caught up with all our current rivals')
1892
The Pub / Re: Translation
« on January 18th, 2013, 04:39 AM »
There are some SMF strings left untouched, but exactly what's left is unknown and what will *be* left afterwards is also unknown.
1893
The Pub / Re: Translation
« on January 18th, 2013, 04:28 AM »That's awesome. But you need to figure out a way where translator can insert their special carahteres without the utf-8 code.
For example, I want to write "dog" in portuguese. I want to write "Cão" and not "Cã";o. Do you understand what I mean? For me it's not a problem at all. I'm thinking in other that don't know the utf-8 "alphabet".
*_* sexy!1!1!1!!
That mean no more "topic(s)". Awesome.
But if you give me one example, I will say with 100% sure if it will be a problem in Wedge.
Ok. In theory there only exist one language. Portuguese. And nowadays only onde brand. The problem is that in Portugal we don't write our sentences like the brazilians, and we don't like to read brazilian portuguese. The opposite is also true.
It's like someone say to you, "Peter, from this day you need to write US Style in every place". And you will say: "GTFO"
But yeah, we have the same problem - US vs UK English, and there's things we can do about that too.
OK, so next question, how different are the two? Are we talking every string, substantial (more than 50% different), modest (30% different), minor (10% different) or occasional (a few times a file) differences? I don't need figures, just a rough approximation of how big the problem is, because depending on how we play it, this might turn out to be a fairly simple problem to solve.
So, at least for now(and for many years, I mean, MANY years), two brands are necessary.
1894
Plugins / Re: Subaccounts
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:50 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock - the basic RPS version is much the same.
1895
Features / Re: New revs
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:39 AM »
(4 files, 2KB)
Revision: 1852
Author: arantor
Date: 18 January 2013 01:28:23
Message:
! SMF bug: disallow checking of email address for activation purposes if the account is not in a state where it should be approving such things. (Activate.php)
! Typo in Class-DBPackages, thanks Dragooon. (Class-DBPackages.php)
! SMF bug: force serializer to PHP's own for DB sessions, as there are other serializers out there that could cause trouble, e.g. igbinary. While I was hesitant to suggest it for SMF, it does fit with things we can do in future. (Load.php)
! SMF bug: XSS validation not performed in the admin panel for selecting a default language. (ManageServer.php)
----
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Activate.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Class-DBPackages.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Load.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/ManageServer.php
Revision: 1852
Author: arantor
Date: 18 January 2013 01:28:23
Message:
! SMF bug: disallow checking of email address for activation purposes if the account is not in a state where it should be approving such things. (Activate.php)
! Typo in Class-DBPackages, thanks Dragooon. (Class-DBPackages.php)
! SMF bug: force serializer to PHP's own for DB sessions, as there are other serializers out there that could cause trouble, e.g. igbinary. While I was hesitant to suggest it for SMF, it does fit with things we can do in future. (Load.php)
! SMF bug: XSS validation not performed in the admin panel for selecting a default language. (ManageServer.php)
----
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Activate.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Class-DBPackages.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/Load.php
Modified : /trunk/Sources/ManageServer.php
1896
The Pub / Re: Translation
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:37 AM »
Bad Santa indeed!
OK, so right now there's still a lot of upheaval in language strings, additions, changes, deletions and so on that we've very firmly resisted encouraging translators *at this time*. We'd hate for you to do translations, only for us while still in busy and major development to go and uproot things - we've seen first hand how aggravating it is to have your work upturned by someone else doing what they were doing.
When we're further along (ideally beta, when we're not actively adding lots of huge changes), then we'll be looking at getting translation services going for people who want to translate. That means we can get all the major feature changes out of the way happily, then move on towards building something to support the translators who are doing translations.
There are a huge number of things that are rather different in Wedge, but the ones that are truly important for translators to understand:
* each language needs a flag, ideally from the FamFamFam Flags set but in some cases we'll do others, and if it's not in FamFamFam, we'll need to ensure there is permission to distribute the icon with the language pack
* each language only needs UTF-8
* each language supports a variety of fun constructions for different numbers and so on - for example from the English pack we have:
Code: [Select]
The way this part works is that you can have different phrases depending on the different numbers required - some languages will need different phrases for 0, 1, 2 or more items, as well as a generic one for any number. There are quite a few instances of this in the language files.
In the interim, I would note that there are things I would like some input on that help get us to a beta stage - in your language, what areas have proven most difficult to provide proper translations? One of the biggest issues for i18n is the use of compound phrases, where bits of a phrase are joined together in English, but this won't work in other languages - is this common in Portuguese?
Also, specific to Portuguese, is the whole _pt vs _br thing that big a deal? Would it not make more sense to have a single Portuguese translation? I'm not trying to single out Portuguese specifically, just that it's your point of reference, and that I'm intentionally trying to keep everyone's workload as sane as possible. If only one language pack will do the trick, let's only do it once.
OK, so right now there's still a lot of upheaval in language strings, additions, changes, deletions and so on that we've very firmly resisted encouraging translators *at this time*. We'd hate for you to do translations, only for us while still in busy and major development to go and uproot things - we've seen first hand how aggravating it is to have your work upturned by someone else doing what they were doing.
When we're further along (ideally beta, when we're not actively adding lots of huge changes), then we'll be looking at getting translation services going for people who want to translate. That means we can get all the major feature changes out of the way happily, then move on towards building something to support the translators who are doing translations.
There are a huge number of things that are rather different in Wedge, but the ones that are truly important for translators to understand:
* each language needs a flag, ideally from the FamFamFam Flags set but in some cases we'll do others, and if it's not in FamFamFam, we'll need to ensure there is permission to distribute the icon with the language pack
* each language only needs UTF-8
* each language supports a variety of fun constructions for different numbers and so on - for example from the English pack we have:
$txt['num_posts'] = array(0 => 'No posts', 1 => '1 post', 'n' => '%s posts');The way this part works is that you can have different phrases depending on the different numbers required - some languages will need different phrases for 0, 1, 2 or more items, as well as a generic one for any number. There are quite a few instances of this in the language files.
In the interim, I would note that there are things I would like some input on that help get us to a beta stage - in your language, what areas have proven most difficult to provide proper translations? One of the biggest issues for i18n is the use of compound phrases, where bits of a phrase are joined together in English, but this won't work in other languages - is this common in Portuguese?
Also, specific to Portuguese, is the whole _pt vs _br thing that big a deal? Would it not make more sense to have a single Portuguese translation? I'm not trying to single out Portuguese specifically, just that it's your point of reference, and that I'm intentionally trying to keep everyone's workload as sane as possible. If only one language pack will do the trick, let's only do it once.
1897
Other software / Re: Discussing Wedge on simplemachines.org
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:24 AM »
OK, say it with me, Kindred, "I am not the team"
Yes, you personally may not have said anything along these lines, but I know for certain things have been said along these lines. It just hasn't been done in quasi-public.
And yes, you don't have the power to make decisions. If only 1) that were relevant and 2) that were actually the point. You don't need to be a person in authority to sway things. I do it all the time, I encourage and discourage ideas based on their relative merits on sm.org - and I'm no decision maker by any stretch.
You don't have to be a decision maker to cause a decision to go a certain way. You may not even be aware of doing it.
I didn't say you were the problem, I said that of the attitude being displayed, you seemed more part of the problem than of the solution. These are not absolutes. It's also indicative that it's not necessarily a person that's the problem but the mindset and attitude.
So far in this thread we've seen plenty of cases of strawman arguments, missing the point, misrepresentation of the points being made, and conflation between individual and collective. Everything you've been saying amounts to 'it's not the team's fault that the devs are leaving' when all the devs are saying something very different. Very hard to see the problem if you're actually part of it, though I'm absolutely certain that it isn't intentionally the case.
The other thing is, you're speaking your mind, and we both know how stubborn you can be. The problem is, that discourages others from speaking their mind, so what you might regard as an opinion can and will be taken to heart by people.
And lastly, I never said you did ignore anyone. I said the team, as a collective, did that. Again, it's happened fairly consistently, both before and after the reorg. AND it's one method of taking away the power of someone to have a say in what they do.
You and I are never going to agree on a lot of things - and most of this debate is evidence of that. The thing is, all of us outside the team can see all these things and the road SMF is on, and the only reason we're bothering to entertain this is because we don't want SMF to die. We believe you don't either, so we're engaging and trying to show you what we've seen and known about for years in a last ditch attempt to try and salvage what's left of SMF.
As it stands, you have a developer who, in all balance of probability, will leave in one fashion or another by year end at the very latest, and another person with that title who doesn't have the maturity or skill to carry out the tasks that will be left, and you're continuing to discourage the people who could possibly ride in on winged horseback to drag things from the depths, and I'm not just talking about me or Nao here.
There is a part of me that thinks this should be locked as a waste of time, but I'll leave it open for now just in case there is something to salvage out of this mess. Just like SMF, really.
I am also reminded of why I originally set out to build a base from fresh, because then we wouldn't even be arguing - SMF would be dead or alive on its own merits. But that's water under the bridge now.
I do wonder what would have happened, though, if Wedge had never been forked.
Yes, you personally may not have said anything along these lines, but I know for certain things have been said along these lines. It just hasn't been done in quasi-public.
And yes, you don't have the power to make decisions. If only 1) that were relevant and 2) that were actually the point. You don't need to be a person in authority to sway things. I do it all the time, I encourage and discourage ideas based on their relative merits on sm.org - and I'm no decision maker by any stretch.
You don't have to be a decision maker to cause a decision to go a certain way. You may not even be aware of doing it.
I didn't say you were the problem, I said that of the attitude being displayed, you seemed more part of the problem than of the solution. These are not absolutes. It's also indicative that it's not necessarily a person that's the problem but the mindset and attitude.
So far in this thread we've seen plenty of cases of strawman arguments, missing the point, misrepresentation of the points being made, and conflation between individual and collective. Everything you've been saying amounts to 'it's not the team's fault that the devs are leaving' when all the devs are saying something very different. Very hard to see the problem if you're actually part of it, though I'm absolutely certain that it isn't intentionally the case.
The other thing is, you're speaking your mind, and we both know how stubborn you can be. The problem is, that discourages others from speaking their mind, so what you might regard as an opinion can and will be taken to heart by people.
And lastly, I never said you did ignore anyone. I said the team, as a collective, did that. Again, it's happened fairly consistently, both before and after the reorg. AND it's one method of taking away the power of someone to have a say in what they do.
You and I are never going to agree on a lot of things - and most of this debate is evidence of that. The thing is, all of us outside the team can see all these things and the road SMF is on, and the only reason we're bothering to entertain this is because we don't want SMF to die. We believe you don't either, so we're engaging and trying to show you what we've seen and known about for years in a last ditch attempt to try and salvage what's left of SMF.
As it stands, you have a developer who, in all balance of probability, will leave in one fashion or another by year end at the very latest, and another person with that title who doesn't have the maturity or skill to carry out the tasks that will be left, and you're continuing to discourage the people who could possibly ride in on winged horseback to drag things from the depths, and I'm not just talking about me or Nao here.
Posted: January 18th, 2013, 02:18 AM
There is a part of me that thinks this should be locked as a waste of time, but I'll leave it open for now just in case there is something to salvage out of this mess. Just like SMF, really.
Posted: January 18th, 2013, 02:21 AM
I am also reminded of why I originally set out to build a base from fresh, because then we wouldn't even be arguing - SMF would be dead or alive on its own merits. But that's water under the bridge now.
I do wonder what would have happened, though, if Wedge had never been forked.
1898
Plugins / Re: Subaccounts
« on January 18th, 2013, 02:06 AM »
Nah, it's simply whoever gets to it first, though first doesn't necessarily mean only - though we tend to talk to each other and discuss things like that.
I have bits of a 'switch permissions' mod already written (for testing what permissions another group has) but it relies on fixing a bug in the core that I haven't gotten to yet.
If it's going to call for a game, I vote Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock.
I have bits of a 'switch permissions' mod already written (for testing what permissions another group has) but it relies on fixing a bug in the core that I haven't gotten to yet.
If it's going to call for a game, I vote Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock.
1899
Features / Re: Ordering sticky topics
« on January 18th, 2013, 01:41 AM »
Does it need its own permission or would being able to make pinned topics be sufficient?
(yes, bah, I keep forgetting we renamed it to 'pinned topics' rather than 'sticky topics' a long time ago)
Also, this is in no way related to the fact that I have a shiny new toy (jQuery UI Sortable) and want to use it in cool ways :D
(yes, bah, I keep forgetting we renamed it to 'pinned topics' rather than 'sticky topics' a long time ago)
Posted: January 18th, 2013, 01:39 AM
Also, this is in no way related to the fact that I have a shiny new toy (jQuery UI Sortable) and want to use it in cool ways :D
1902
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 18th, 2013, 12:20 AM »
At the risk of repeating myself... anything a plugin can do will just be to hide it. To actually prevent all the other stuff happening would be to either make an option for it, or have everything detect whether the sidebar is present.
Either case requires more effort computationally than is currently in use, so hiding a plugin, while entirely possible, is not a smart idea because it will force more work to be done than it should be.
Either case requires more effort computationally than is currently in use, so hiding a plugin, while entirely possible, is not a smart idea because it will force more work to be done than it should be.
1903
Features: Theming / Re: Permanent sidebar
« on January 18th, 2013, 12:16 AM »
Short of actually implementing the option you wanted, there is no way to refactor it to avoid those things.
1904
Archived fixes / Re: Reply Error with Chrome
« on January 17th, 2013, 10:31 PM »
I'm not saying that it should be retired overnight, I'm just saying that we might want to consider it. It would also potentially allow us to ditch a lot of the complexity of Class-Editor's PHP code, but at the cost of a little more client weight (which, to be fair, should be cached most of the time)
SCEditor, in case it wasn't known, actually exports bbcode rather than natural HTML.Quote Nope... it wasn't actually displaying anything I'd typed either. And that's a different bug again to what was in the OP.
SCEditor, in case it wasn't known, actually exports bbcode rather than natural HTML.
/ the issue reported here was about the lack of a cursor, right...? This was due to Chrome being detected as both is_chrome and is_ff. I rewrote the is_ff detection code, it's now 6 gzipped bytes shorter (lulz!), and should work properly. Tested before and after the change -- it was indeed that.
1905
Features: Forward thinking / Re: jQuery support
« on January 17th, 2013, 10:13 PM »
Yes... but not everyone will be *using* CDN, that's my point.
I won't use CDN at all, ever, but that's just me being picky. Intranets for example won't necessarily have CDN facilities to make it work.
I won't use CDN at all, ever, but that's just me being picky. Intranets for example won't necessarily have CDN facilities to make it work.