Zaiken

  • I haven't programmed much since vrml was new.
  • Posts: 8
Request - Xmpp chat
« on January 24th, 2014, 10:21 AM »Last edited on January 24th, 2014, 10:34 AM
I would like to see some sort of xmpp chat implemented. Specifically I would like to see something like Jappix integrated. Or even just a Candychat style shoutbox. I would like to see it take advantage of the notification system too, sending site status updates or topic notifications to the chat client. Considering just about every platform I know of (android, linux, windows, mac, win phone, etc) has a jabber client there is a lot of potential use for it.

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,061
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #1, on January 24th, 2014, 03:58 PM »
Wedge has the thought system. It's powerful (do your Jabber clients have privacy settings? Didn't think so..), and less taxing on a server. Do you really think you can come here, not introduce yourself, and simply ask for me to rewrite something that took me months to implement and fine-tune just because, well... because you don't care?

I'm wondering if you asked the same to SMF or ElkArte...

Zaiken

  • I haven't programmed much since vrml was new.
  • Posts: 8
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #2, on January 25th, 2014, 06:42 PM »
I didn't mean to offend. I had no intent of replacing the thought system with it, I just think it would be a better alternative to ajax chat in some cases. The thought system is more of a microblog where as jabber is centered around realtime chat. Jappix itself has a  microblogging system, but I was refferring to the chat part. Unless there is an official android or iphone app, a browser has to be left open for mobile users and many won't properly handle notifications in the background. For jabber the apps already exist, there is a native notification system for most OS. I just wanted to take advantage of their notifications but am not quite experienced enough to do so just yet, until there is a native application for mobile wedge. It is more reliable in my experience than email notifications for forum stats.

What I'm looking for is effectively a bridge, just to login and forward the notifications. I'm not looking to disrupt the way wedge functions. Sorry for the confusion.

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,061
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #3, on January 25th, 2014, 06:54 PM »
Quote from Zaiken on January 25th, 2014, 06:42 PM
I didn't mean to offend. I had no intent of replacing the thought system with it, I just think it would be a better alternative to ajax chat in some cases.
There are so many different ways to communicate in 'real time' on the Web, and all of them are resource-intensive. At best, you could use a system that makes use of the WebSockets API, but do you want your users to get confused over having to make sure their browser supports it? Not to mention the possibility of firewalls getting in the way... Etc. Actually, that feature, I could certainly have had use for it back in 2006, when I was looking into making my game and my its website communicate. But right now, I don't think it's more than a fun thing to play with. A more realistic implementation is the one I have in Wedge.

Now, I wanted to add -- there's *nothing* that makes it impossible (or even undesirable) to use the thought system's backend and implement a new, real-time frontend over it. Facebook pretty much did that when they turned their PM system into a real-time chat thingy. But personally, I don't think I want that to be in Wedge. Maybe as a paid plugin, in the future. But certainly not for now: I have more important things to implement.
Quote from Zaiken on January 25th, 2014, 06:42 PM
What I'm looking for is effectively a bridge, just to login and forward the notifications. I'm not looking to disrupt the way wedge functions. Sorry for the confusion.
You mean the Wedge notification system...? The one in the page header?

Zaiken

  • I haven't programmed much since vrml was new.
  • Posts: 8
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #4, on January 25th, 2014, 08:09 PM »
Facebook uses xmpp everywhere, you can connect to their chat directly with an xmpp client. Xmpp is its own standard, and a very low bandwidth, low resource system. I can run server all day and only generate a few mb worth of data where an ajax chat can reach 150mb or more a day with only 20 or so people online, messaging sparratically. And yes, xmpp has extensive privacy systems that can duplicate the one in wedge(with a little scripting), plus handle interactions with other websites and chat servers.

I understand its not your primary concern, but its something I personally like on my forums. I have jappix running on my site as the primary chat and it works very well, far better than any of the many ajax solutions I have tried. So far with smf I have not had any luck trying to make a bridge. Wedge has a lot of improvements over smf, but it isn't a realtime chat, it doesn't have voice or video calling built in, and it has no native client as of yet (that I know of). The forum and blogging systems are beatiful, but it can't fill every role. Not just yet anyway. But if it can send off a realtime notification to a server admin's phone when something goes wrong in the middle of the night, without having to go through an email filter, that is another step that it goes beyond what everyone else can do.
Posted: January 25th, 2014, 07:21 PM

Just as a reference. In march the entire bandwidth of a site I run was just 5gb with the forum + xmpp chat running 24/7.  When I switched to ajax chat this doubled or even trippled the bandwidth for that day, then that month. Most recently over 17gb, and it overtaxed our mysql server as well. I have had to tone the chats down to their lowest just to have it stable. And the logs show the increase in the exact day and hour I switched. Bandwidth increased by over 100kbs from the original 20kbs. I haven't run tests on wedge yet, so I can't say what the performance is like. But as you can see in my case ajax based chat systems have been a bane, and the only reason I don't still use Jappix on that specific site is because the sessions would not stay properly linked with the smf logins, so users complained about constant disconnections.

While it may have started as an experiment, xmmp proved to be a very reliable setup, and in this case it only failed because I was personally unable to utilize the API effectively. I know someone here could do better.

This is only a request. Not a demand on anyone. You have no obligation to jump to help me out and I realize that. I just ask that someone consider it.

Nao

  • Dadman with a boy
  • Posts: 16,061
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #5, on January 27th, 2014, 11:22 AM »
Quote from Zaiken on January 25th, 2014, 08:09 PM
Facebook uses xmpp everywhere, you can connect to their chat directly with an xmpp client.
Oh, I didn't know they used it as well.
Quote from Zaiken on January 25th, 2014, 08:09 PM
Xmpp is its own standard, and a very low bandwidth, low resource system. I can run server all day and only generate a few mb worth of data where an ajax chat can reach 150mb or more a day with only 20 or so people online, messaging sparratically. And yes, xmpp has extensive privacy systems that can duplicate the one in wedge(with a little scripting), plus handle interactions with other websites and chat servers.
Well, fact is, I don't know how to easily implement it (and easiness is a factor because something complex is hard to maintain), I don't know how to make it 'interact' with thoughts, and I don't think if it's worth working on this now, when I have so many things left to implement.
Quote from Zaiken on January 25th, 2014, 08:09 PM
But if it can send off a realtime notification to a server admin's phone when something goes wrong in the middle of the night,
Well, I know I can send notifications to the Chrome browser, haven't tried it though (it seems to be easy, but notifications are on my back-burner right now), but I suppose if it worked in Chrome Mobile, you'd be able to get these notifications as well...

However, I have 'block mode' enabled on my phone, specifically so I don't get up because of a notification, and I'm pretty sure you'd be pissed to get out of bed just because someone sent you a PM asking how to make this frigging chat work on your forum... :P

Zaiken

  • I haven't programmed much since vrml was new.
  • Posts: 8
Re: Request - Xmpp chat
« Reply #6, on January 31st, 2014, 03:07 PM »
Well considering you basically just heard of xmpp from me that's not surprising. :P  Its pretty simple once you get the hang of the protocol, but remember you aren't the only one here that could pull it off.

 Wedge is becoming quite the gem, even this alpha its fast and seems to outdo everything else in a variety of ways. Its sure to attract a lot of attention, and its my hope someone will see this and find a way to make it work. If it becomes a "premium" feature like your media gallery did in smf I would be more  than happy to pay for it. (Though not monthly plz,I got too many of those on my plate already. :^^;:)
 

As for sleep, who has time for that?  I'm up most of the time tweaking stuff anyway, and once I hit do that pillow its going to take a herd of elephants to wake me up. A little notification beep wouldn't be a bother, I have quite a few going off at night anyway. ( plus I think jabber allows scheduling an forwarding at certain times though. Not sure atm though, I just woke up so don't take my word for it.)