Wedge
Public area => Off-topic => The Pub => Other software => Topic started by: Shawn on March 18th, 2013, 05:49 PM
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Firstly, I use the term customer service because SMF is an NPO. I know they are providing a free software and its volunteers but the fact they are an NPO, attempts to set them in a more "professional level" of software development and providing, even if it is free.
I am getting a PhD in management and have had plenty of business and marketing classes to know what is good for a brand and what is bad for a brand. I am seeing a lot of bad things going down at SMF that is horrible for their brand and reputation and I figured I'd give it a full review here and see what you all think of it.
The other day, I suggest a new feature for SMF. Now if the feature was considered a bad idea or better as a mod, that would be fine with me. I never expected anyone to implement it. I just wanted to post the idea and get feedback for it. IMO, it was a good idea. :) Anyways, an official member of support came on the topic and said this and I quote "remember.... people are stupid. we'll get complaints "How do I make a new poll?!?!?!"" Now some of you may be thinking, This is true as some people will not be able to comprehend the change and be confused. However, I am not thinking that... I am looking at it in a business perspective, I am seeing an official team member say that the software in which they represent has stupid customers. If I was a new comer and saw this, I'd take offense and likely move on to another software such as PhpBB or MyBB or paid solution. Why? Because I saw a staff member post something that basically says we do not appreciate our customers. Now if I was the owner or CEO of a business and I saw an employee conduct this sort of irresponsible behavior, it would end in a termination. The support team member represents the software provider and so anything they say in relation to the provider will go against that provider. Its all about putting yourself in the shoes of a regular and potential customer.
The other thing is, I had deactivated my account on SMF a while ago to take a break from it. I mean I don't take the support members very seriously anyways so if I need support, I can just get it right off of AAF without having to wade through bull shit and insults. The reason I had deactivated the account was because, again, official support members were seemly trying to post things that would offend Americans. Now I am an American but I am not one of the ones who thinks we are the best and the shit, however, I will defend my honor... I would love to see every America who uses SMF to stop using it and see how their usage stats drop. It could of been any country, you don't treat your customers like shit, period.
Thoughts on my observations?
Discuss... Debate... :)
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rotfl... that would have been me.
and yes.. people are stupid.
I treat smart, normal and stupid people the same way... :P
However, I don't think that anyone has been "treated like shit" by SMF
(yes, Arantor, I know, you have something to say about that, but there' no need to bring all that up - he's talking about "smf customers" so PPPBBBTTTTHHH :P)
I will also note: I believe that most of the team actually are Americans..
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However, I don't think that anyone has been "treated like shit" by SMF
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SMF is a piece of software, it can't treat anyone nor anything like shit. :P
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SMF is a piece of software, it can treat anyone nor anything like shit. :P
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Darn keyboard!
/meneeds a new one...
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SMF is a piece of software, it can't treat anyone nor anything like shit. :P
Oh and as for customers if you didn't have them you wouldn't have the software in the first place, there would be no need for it >
Correct?
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(yes, Arantor, I know, you have something to say about that, but there' no need to bring all that up - he's talking about "smf customers" so PPPBBBTTTTHHH :P)
However, I don't think that anyone has been "treated like shit" by SMF
Yeah a piece of software that is unable to progress!
Oh and as for customers if you didn't have them you wouldn't have the software in the first place, there would be no need for it >
Correct?
The developers are customers too - or should be. So should the rest of the team. But more than one support team member does not actively run any forums. (Site team could be forgiven for such. Their speciality is not running forums or indeed writing code for such.)
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Oh and as for customers if you didn't have them you wouldn't have the software in the first place, there would be no need for it >
Correct?
But, I can break the dilemma: I'm not coding for any customer. I'm coding for myself, if no one else were to use my software , I wouldn't be that concerned , so, from my own personal perspective, without "customers" there can be software, without "developers" no.
Disclaimer: what I wrote here has nothing to do with the main subject of the topic (i.e. I'm neither Kindred nor SMF's lawyer or spokesman).
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yeah, maybe my ego would suffer a bit, but it already suffers for so many other issues that this would just be a drop in the sea
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I treat smart, normal and stupid people the same way... :P
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I recently got called out "over there" for daring to ask a person why he thought what he was asking help for was a problem. Even as other team members do the same or worse all the time.
I started a thread about what I felt was harassment by said team member. Eventually the thread was locked, but not before their logic was absolutely crushed by yours truly.
Yay. :)
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ummm... not quite. :P
Like many of your arguments, you seem to think that you have unassaible logic, when in reality, it is actually just a strong opinion.
Arantor's point was stronger than yours.
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Let's not get into the debate of what is a strong, or valid, opinion again, kthx
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rotfl... just a nod to the previous debate, not re-entering the fray. :)
my point was not about validity of opinion, but the "crushed logic" :)
As I said, your argument that they let you (and me, for that matter) get away with the same comment to the OP was really the only logical argument in the bunch. :D
... and xrunner, it wasn't so much your comment that got the topic split as the fact that you wouldn't let it go.
Even Arantor and I backed off after making our opinion known on the OP's request.
(and by the time you joined with your comment, they had moved beyond the "something is wrong" and into "I really would like to change this" and Kays was helping him do just that. :))
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rotfl... just a nod to the previous debate, not re-entering the fray. :)
my point was not about validity of opinion, but the "crushed logic" :)
As I said, your argument that they let you (and me, for that matter) get away with the same comment to the OP was really the only logical argument in the bunch. :D
You are coward and full of hypocrisy just like the other team members involved in that complaint. But, you don't scare me, and I won't back down from what I know is right - that being I don't resound to members any worse than YOU do, and I've got the research to PROVE it in a file.... and xrunner, it wasn't so much your comment that got the topic split as the fact that you wouldn't let it go.
Even Arantor and I backed off after making our opinion known on the OP's request.
(and by the time you joined with your comment, they had moved beyond the "something is wrong" and into "I really would like to change this" and Kays was helping him do just that. :))
But it was said that if somebody says SMF has a problem, then by definition it's a problem and they have a right to ask that it be fixed, and it appears we can't ask them why they want it fixed.
OH SHIT - you just did that the other day! You are a hypocrite.
I have a file on my computer full of your responses to members seeking help that I documented for somebody. You are far worse than I am. I don't see you being called out by team members. I've already sent parts of the file to somebody, but I doubt they'll see beyond their hypocrisy and cowardly protection of team members.
So, just go on about your merry way and if I see you acting any worse than I did I'll report your little butt and call out the hypocrisy going on over there.
:cool:
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......Or you do it my way, and remember that forum topics aren't going to change anyone's life, and most of them are trolls anyway, so there's no point in wasting time "making your point known"... Nobody cares, I'm afraid!
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Let it be clear - I don't think Kindred is responding improperly to people in general. It's when they say I can't do the same type things he does that's the problem. That's hypocrisy. If they can't see that then they are also hypocrites.
......Or you do it my way, and remember that forum topics aren't going to change anyone's life, and most of them are trolls anyway, so there's no point in wasting time "making your point known"... Nobody cares, I'm afraid!
But if you're right I'll definitely admit such.
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Oh, some people care, some people care enough to make the points being made. Some people cared enough to try and do something about it. Then some people still care but realise that trying to apply logic to anything in certain forums is so far beyond a waste of time it isn't even funny any more.
Honestly, my afternoon's productivity improved when I spent it playing Assassin's Creed III than dealing with the above sorts of inanity.
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+1, watching a Xenoblade speedrun here... :lol:
(Well, really that's because I can't work on caching if I don't know what to do... So, actually my productivity is technically at its lowest right now... :-/)
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I read the post, I still have no suggestions :(
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I don't have a problem with people responding the way I do.... and I have never said otherwise. :P
Arantor does it all the time and I don't call him on it.
Document all you like. I don't delete my posts, so anyone who really cares enough can go back through my posts and see my responses at any time.
As for the locking and where I was.
I took my dog for a walk. When I got back, the thread had been started, escalated and locked... before I got to read any bit of it.
And one thing... Don't you *DARE* call me a coward. I
'll argue with you... I'll get into debates and I won't hold any of that BS against you (or anyone else) call me names like that and I *WILL* take issue with that. Your name calling was uncalled for and inappropriate.
I say what I mean. I mean what I say.
I don't lie. (I may be mistaken, I may have to retract previous statements, but I do not lie based on my knowledge at the time)
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I don't have a problem with people responding the way I do.... and I have never said otherwise. :P
Arantor does it all the time and I don't call him on it.
Why don't you stand up for me over there? You are afraid to. Have you told Kays what you just told me here? What, you haven't?
What does that make you then?As for the locking and where I was.
I took my dog for a walk. When I got back, the thread had been started, escalated and locked... before I got to read any bit of it.
You won't do it? What does that make you then?And one thing... Don't you *DARE* call me a coward. I
'll argue with you... I'll get into debates and I won't hold any of that BS against you (or anyone else) call me names like that and I *WILL* take issue with that. Your name calling was uncalled for and inappropriate.
I say what I mean. I mean what I say.
I don't lie. (I may be mistaken, I may have to retract previous statements, but I do not lie based on my knowledge at the time)
Just saying you aren't a coward isn't going to cut it. talk without action is cheap.
Step up to the plate and prove it. In the open. At the SMF forum.
I have a really bad taste in my mouth from all this. I'm not sure how much more I want to even try to help people. I'm no SMF genius but I do know a lot of the practical side of forums and all the menus and settings. But if you say I can respond like you and Arantor, and Kays says I can't (in effect), well then who the fuck should I believe?
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sorry. At this point you have used up any good will I had toward you.
I have three words for you, on this site and any otther.
Go to hell.
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sorry. At this point you have used up any good will I had toward you.
I have three words for you, on this site and any otther.
Go to hell.
Pfffft. You are a typical forum staff member that can't admit when they are wrong. Dime a dozen. You can't stand up to your peers. You just want to leave the discussion because I just handed your ass to you. You are what I thought you were.
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I read the post, I still have no suggestions :(
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Being one that was participating in that topic, ( and who subsequently had all his posts deleted! ), I feel I should comment here as well.
I was backing @xrunner because he was stating that the 'problem' was subjective, which it was! The problem was purely cosmetic, produced zero errors and, well for me at least, wasn't a 'problem' or 'bug' as such. In fact I find things easier to read with the spaces! ( But that of course is subjective! ) Why he should have been chastised for that is beyond me, the team do it, why are they not chastised?? ( which I think is what this is all about, one rule for them, another for us. )
What really got my goat though, was the fact that it took 4 days for anybody to even ask the basic questions:
- What version of SMF?
- What Mods do you have installed?
I'll lay money on this being a problem with a mod! (In which case it should have been posted in that mods support topic! ) :ph34r: :whistle: :niark:
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Maybe someone could post the topic URL, so we know what everything's talking about..?
(Not that I care, but...)
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There's no point now @Nao, the thing has been totally bastardised. :wow:
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So, IIUC, it's just a waste of my precious time......? :whistle:
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A lot of what happens with sm.org is a waste of everyone's time.
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DrunkenClam,
If anyone cares to read the thread they'd see I wanted to understand where the guy was coming from.
Examples of me asking the guy questions:
So why do you think it's a problem? Is it subjective or does it relate to your local culture/language?
Just curious, but why do you call it a "problem"? Is it some kind of issue related to how language or writing symbols are used in your country? If you want to re-install SMF just because of this it seems very important like a local language thing.
^^^ Does that sound like I'm being an asshole! If it does then I'm in good company over there.
Maybe it has something to do with his religion? Maybe in his religion you can't put spaces after parenthesis. Who the hell knows if nobody asks? I've heard of weirder things.
I NEVER EVER EVER said it wasn't something he couldn't get changed. But when he could not answer why it was a problem, it was clear it was just cosmetic. Is every cosmetic little thing a PROBLEM with SMF? Of course not. Every little thing people don't like is a subjective little thing they want changed. That isn't a PROBLEM with SMF. It's a desired change in the appearance.
If I created a new account and logged on, and pretended to say - oh what can I use - let's say I said it was a problem that the logo of the forum was at the top of the page and not the bottom. This is a terrible problem! If Kindred et. al. were the ones to initially respond to my post, they give me the business. They wouldn't acknowledge that was a problem. They'd do the SAME thing I did with that guy - all with smiley faces to boot.
Pfffft. Scotty Beam Me Up.
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That post was a nice bedtime read with my cup of tea and choc biccies. :D
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That post was a nice bedtime read with my cup of tea and choc biccies. :D
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http://youtu.be/hKFueMePWj0
mwahahaha :niark: runs.
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My favourite off that was always Don't Stop Me Now.
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I just got 1000 posts over at SMF, so now I'm a "sophist".
I'm not sure if they consider that good or bad. :o
1.
a. One skilled in elaborate and devious argumentation.
b. A scholar or thinker.
2. Sophist Any of a group of professional fifth-century b.c. Greek philosophers and teachers who speculated on theology, metaphysics, and the sciences, and who were later characterized by Plato as superficial manipulators of rhetoric and dialectic.
Oh you got footnotes! Crap love that mod! One of the best (IMHO), well most useful, ever.
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Oh you got footnotes! Crap love that mod! One of the best (IMHO), well most useful, ever.
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Given who the author of Footnotes was, is that really a surprise?
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I look back at the mods I've written and I realise just how many of them are either in Wedge or if they're not already, will be in some form or another. It's actually quite surprising when you look at it.
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My favourite off that was always Don't Stop Me Now.
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You mean 'Death On Two Legs' from A Night At The Opera? That's not 'considered' a hate song, it's fairly clearly so :P The real trick is knowing who it was 'dedicated to...' ;)
/meis such a Queen fan, he even tracked down that truly, truly awful game based on Queen's music.
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I'm not sure why I missed being aware of this project. I read you mentioning Wedge before but it didn't connect that it was another forum project. There must be (and from what I've read is) a lot of history leading up to this.
Is there anything I can do to help? I'll try to keep up with what's going on and keep investigating the user experience here. I'd love to test it but I know there are probably more capable people doing that now. Shoot, from what I can see I'd consider moving my forum over when it's ready.
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There must be (and from what I've read is) a lot of history leading up to this.
Thing is, that was 3 years ago and not really a lot has changed in that time. http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=310.0 is also well worth the read.Is there anything I can do to help? I'll try to keep up with what's going on and keep investigating the user experience here. I'd love to test it but I know there are probably more capable people doing that now. Shoot, from what I can see I'd consider moving my forum over when it's ready.
I don't know that what I have planned will entirely resolve it but I certainly agree the tools are not up to the job as they stand.
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Damn!
I just lost a big post. The whole screen filled up with random text when I previewed it. >:(
I know I should have typed in an external editor. Maybe the forum logged me out right in the middle of it all. :hmm:
I'll try it again tomorrow.
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Check Profile > Draft Posts?
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You mean 'Death On Two Legs' from A Night At The Opera? That's not 'considered' a hate song, it's fairly clearly so :P The real trick is knowing who it was 'dedicated to...' ;)
/meis such a Queen fan, he even tracked down that truly, truly awful game based on Queen's music.
Thing is, that was 3 years ago and not really a lot has changed in that time. http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=310.0 is also well worth the read.
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Yeah I was referring to Death on Two Legs. Ex Manager Norman (I forgot what his last name is) if I'm not mistaken.
I was reading that yesterday and I agree with a few of the things that TestMonkey(Norv?) said.
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Drafts! Duh! OK not used to that luxury ... :wow:
There must be (and from what I've read is) a lot of history leading up to this.
Thing is, that was 3 years ago and not really a lot has changed in that time. http://www.elkarte.net/index.php?topic=310.0 is also well worth the read.
The biggest thing I'd say is read up on what's going on, feel free to ask about any features you think would be useful (or that you miss in other systems, or just that would be useful to your community and that might benefit others)... for example I found an old topic of yours that gave me some interesting thoughts. I don't know that what I have planned will entirely resolve it but I certainly agree the tools are not up to the job as they stand.
Sure I'll continue to read along and play with the knobs as I see them.
One idea I've implemented on several forums (using the built-in permissions and such) is what I've called on one forum "The Asbestos-Lined room" on another "The Emergency Room" and on my current forum "The Isolation Tank". I think you are familiar with the concept. Instead of banning a member or placing them in moderation I send them to a board that is the only board they can see when logged in. This until they either understand how to behave (after being grilled by the other members) or, if they don't cooperate, get banned. Sometimes it works when other methods fail. I don't know if that could be a built-in option for moderation. A check box that would implement such a "room". Just an idea to kick around. For my type of forum "customers" it comes in really handy.
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Drafts! Duh! OK not used to that luxury ... :wow:
Will do. I got some catching up to do.
Ha! Well I'll be. Out of the mouths of babes - so to speak.
I think you are familiar with the concept. Instead of banning a member or placing them in moderation I send them to a board that is the only board they can see when logged in.
Board access underwent a huge overhaul. Access to boards is not a straight per-group yes/no any more, and hasn't been for a while. Firstly, seeing a board and entering a board are two separate things (by design), you can see a board without being able to enter it, good for paid subscriptions type boards perhaps. (The message shown for those boards defaults to 'This board is off limits to you" but is customisable.) The reverse is also true, it is possible to enter a board without it being on the board index if so configured.
Secondly, and perhaps more relevantly, it is possible to deny sight/access to boards to groups. So a troublemaker group can easily exist, can easily be 'deny access to all boards except <this one>'. But I'm a bit leery of implementing it, I just don't know why.
Hmm, that gives me another idea for infractions but there really is no good way to implement that cleanly at this juncture (I'm thinking that one of the infraction penalties would be 'restrict access to the Sin Bin board' or whatever it's called but that presents a variety of other matters that are troublesome from a UI standpoint as well as a logical standpoint (but certainly not insurmountably so, perhaps as a plugin)
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well I'll say this, Arantor, Norv is at least consistent in her delusions. 90% of her post is delusional ramblings and is incorrect in the general and the specifics. About the only thing she has right is the current state of development (unfortunately)
then again, her constant poison does kinda taint the waters even when people want to consider helping out.
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And I'll say this - you are consistent in your denial of the state of affairs. Like it or not, she's more right than wrong in this whole sorry state of affairs. I wonder what the SFLC will say in response to her comments to them about it.
Your constant denial and pretending that half the issues aren't present or aren't important taints the waters too. That entire fandango today that Yoshi raised, and the way it was handled by the people in charge, that taints the waters too. It's not for nothing that so many people who 'can do' have all upped and left over the years, far more than the usual churn that is expected with F/OSS development.
How many people on the project and/or organisation actually have contributed to *other* established F/OSS projects? How many people have any idea what it's like to do so?
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I'm slightly hesitant to straight-up implement that, though I'm not entirely sure why.
If they have to confront their peers (regular members) and can't blow it off, they will sometimes "get it". Now of course all this may be over-featureizing your design which is a very real concern. But even if you don't want to do it, it may lead to a new idea. I'm full of ideas if nothing else. :hmm:
I'm not a php guru, but I have seen the best and worst of forum politics, and had to deal with some very nasty situations. After all, isn't this interaction between people what it's all about? :)
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Oh, the concept of having a place to blow off steam that won't materially affect the rest of the forum populace is fairly well understood as a concept. I don't have a problem with the concept as a whole, I have a problem with one-click-ifying that concept. Right now it is fully possible to implement as a manual thing (create the group, create the board, set the access, manually move people to that group as needed)
I'm aware there is already the setup for a 'ban' group as it is, which is a group users get moved to when fully banned. Mostly for the visual aspect (since it's possible to format users by their primary group, and that is more than just colour, it's bold, italic, underline, strikethrough or any, short, otherwise arbitrary CSS), so the concept of a sin bin group is not unfamiliar to me and as I said, there's already some precedent in the design for it. But I'm just hesitant - and I don't know why (and I don't like not knowing why I don't like something!)
PHP doesn't really come into it much, most of this work is little more than cloning the ban group logic which is small enough in itself really.
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Arantor,
I don't DENY any state of affairs.
I DENY her accusations which are delusional.
Neither the org nor the project has "chased away" any members, developers or otherwise.
neither the org nor the project has told any developers how to code
neither the org nor the project has tried to take away anyone's right to their own code or "steal" copyright.
SM does not claim copyright to any individual code.
SM claims copyright to the work as a whole, compiled piece. The copyright statement was correctly updated to reflect copyright held by SM and individual contributors.
SHE is the one who illegally changed/removed the copyright statement. (and I will note, she did so after resigning from the lead dev position the organization and the team - so she had no right to change anything. yes, someone should have gotten around to fixing her commit rights before then, but that's a different matter)
(and we never said that developers must assign copyright to the corporation. We stated that the corporation owns the copyright to the compiled work, seeing as how the lead developer has final say on what code is included - and the lead developer is acting for the project and the corporation in that role (it's not an individual, it's a role which can be and has been held by many individuals over the course of the software))
and the org server and site teams have never denied access to resources for actual needs - for random and ill-thought meaderings, yes...for actual, conceived and stated purposes, no.
(and I'll note that, when Norv was granted root access to certain servers, she abused that access)
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Neither the org nor the project has "chased away" any members, developers or otherwise.
You do realise there are other ways you can push someone out of a project without visibly appearing to do so, right? Cast your mind back to 2009 when I joined the team. Bryan and I didn't get along to start with. Then I realised that there was a problem: he was suggesting things and no-one was listening because it was him saying them, not because the ideas were bad. So late 2009 I started reiterating some of Bryan's ideas. Only now they were good ideas because it wasn't Bryan saying them.
Is that not pushing Bryan out of the project to some degree? Wait, wasn't he actually kicked out of the project at one time?
Oh I must be mistaken, no-one was ever kicked out of the project. Oh and January 2010 NEVER HAPPENED.neither the org nor the project has told any developers how to code
neither the org nor the project has tried to take away anyone's right to their own code or "steal" copyright.
See, I'd listen to what you were saying if it weren't for the fact that YOU PERSONALLY told me I did not have the right to EDIT MY OWN FUCKING POSTS on sm.org at one point in time claiming they were under the CLA, because at the time the only method I had to protest what was going on in a way that could actually make a difference was by removing my own posts, because that was the only thing I had left. Then I didn't even have the right to edit or remove my own posts.
Yes, that happened, folks. And Kindred HIMSELF was the one who moved me into a group that revoked those rights as well as being the one who told me about it.
And that's not pushing me out of the project in any fashion? No, I suppose in your world that's not a method of pushing someone away.SM does not claim copyright to any individual code.
SM claims copyright to the work as a whole, compiled piece. The copyright statement was correctly updated to reflect copyright held by SM and individual contributors.
The fact you STILL AFTER ALL THIS TIME DO NOT UNDERSTAND what we are trying to tell you is so saddening.
So you want to copy Apache. Fine, that makes sense. Except the bulk of the people in the Apache Foundation are contributors to the projects too. I don't see much contribution from SM to SM's actual project code. Unlike Apache.SHE is the one who illegally changed/removed the copyright statement. (and I will note, she did so after resigning from the lead dev position the organization and the team - so she had no right to change anything. yes, someone should have gotten around to fixing her commit rights before then, but that's a different matter)
I would add, though, that it has prompted a necessary review and change that would not have occurred if she had not done so.(and we never said that developers must assign copyright to the corporation. We stated that the corporation owns the copyright to the compiled work, seeing as how the lead developer has final say on what code is included - and the lead developer is acting for the project and the corporation in that role (it's not an individual, it's a role which can be and has been held by many individuals over the course of the software))
and the org server and site teams have never denied access to resources for actual needs - for random and ill-thought meaderings, yes...for actual, conceived and stated purposes, no.
(and I'll note that, when Norv was granted root access to certain servers, she abused that access)
The sad truth is that I'm wasting my time and energy telling you and the rest of the projanisation this because you stopped listening a long time ago. I only respond to this to add the alternative point of view for those playing along at home.
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I actually did read the whole thing. :)
yeah... the whole deleting posts thing was a clusterfuck... I agree with that. Everyone was pissy and everyone was acting inappropriately at the time. (oh, and for the record, I was the mouthpiece, but I was actually expressing the will of the team at that point, including Norv, IIRC. but that's beside the point...
Anyway.... you are right. The bitching about the change from a CLA to the DCO was probably not needed. However, several of us felt that Norv had acted dishonestly in her justification for the switch.
You are right, there are many forms of contribution other than just "code". Heck, I have literally put thousands of dollars of my own money into the project. Admittedly, I have since been repaid - but there was never any assurance that would happen. Many of us (including you) have put YEARS of effort and attention into the project.
The team did not chase Illori away. As a matter of fact, many of us begged her to stay. There were some personality conflicts between her method and those who disagreed with her that she felt were insoluble - but to the bets of my knoweldge no one "Chased her out"
Yes, we have had two people (three?) removed from the team - 2 of them for fairly serious infractions.
I don't count them, because they were in violation of basic ethical guidelines, let alone the team agreement.
(heck even Runic admits that he kinda deserved it - just as he deserved the second chance once he cleared up some of his personal issues) but we never chased Norv away. I actually quite the org and the team so they could keep her, when it became clear that she could not work in any proximity to me. I only came back after she abandoned the project(s).
As for Norv contacting the SFLC... well, I don't know what they told her, but based on her rantings, I have to assume that the information which she provided to them was as slated in the other direction as she accused us of doing. (do note, I have not been privy to ANY of the communications to the SFLC on any side, per request of the SFLC itself, only the board was privy to the specific communications)
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You are right, there are many forms of contribution other than just "code". Heck, I have literally put thousands of dollars of my own money into the project. Admittedly, I have since been repaid - but there was never any assurance that would happen. Many of us (including you) have put YEARS of effort and attention into the project.
We have some code in Wedge that was not written by Nao or myself. The notifications subsystem, as well as miscellaneous components (like jQuery).
In the case of jQuery, even though it is bundled, even though it is distributed with Wedge, it is not technically part of Wedge and even though our editorial decision was to bundle it, it is not legally under our copyright, nor can we claim it is part of the package for this reason.
In the case of Dragooon's notifications system... that's trickier. He originally put in a Wedge header listing copyright to the project, but technically that's not correct. It's copyrighted to him, and licensed to us via BSD. We do not and cannot hold copyright on it except for the changes we've made to it, and we cannot technically even claim copyright on the totality of the work for this reason because no aspect of copyright *law* grants us that right.
Remember, the BSD doesn't even allow us to remove SMF's copyright per se. We are still required to acknowledge it which is why it is important that it is correct. Though as stated, I'm not sure SM holds the copyright. I still believe it is the SMF contributors as a totality who hold that copyright since no copyright assignation was given to SM, only a licence to use the code.
See, you call Norv delusional but I'm really not sure she is. I'd contact IP lawyers myself for clarity but I can't seem to find any in the UK that have experience in dealing with software IP.
I am still not convinced that SM can truly claim editorial capacity over SMF's code. Nao and I can make that claim for Wedge because we're not just platform stewards so to speak, we do not act in a primarily editorial capacity.
Nuts and bolts: was Norv ever officially a member of the NPO? What about Spuds or emanuele?
See, this is where it gets really complicated. For SM NPO to be able to claim editorial stance, I don't see how it can unless people who are members of SM NPO are the ones making the editorial changes. While the lead dev is a position appointed by the project, nothing the project does is automatically or magically transferred to the NPO.
For the sake of simplicity, let us assume that every person signed the stock CLA to the NPO. That CLA grants the NPO the right to use contributions. Not the right to claim ownership of them in any fashion, but simply the right to use them without any ability to remove them. Essentially it is the same as me agreeing I can't remove my own posts.
For SM NPO to claim editorial stance, members of the NPO in a duly appointed position need to be the ones accepting new patches, and not accepting others. Not the project team, but members of the NPO. Now, I don't know exactly who is and who isn't in the NPO but as per emanuele's post(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=498218.msg3536907#msg3536907), a significant proportion of the team are not NPO members.
Now it is entirely possible that there are people performing the editorial role at this time under the NPO umbrella.
However, when the project was relicensed to BSD, was Norv a member then? Because if she wasn't, I do not see how SM can actually claim an editorial copyright at all - because it doesn't hold any copyright, not even editorial stance. Contributions were not given to SM, but licensed to them, and the terms of that licence indicated firmly that copyright was not transferred.
If Norv was not a member, then the situation is simply that it is still copyrighted to SMF contributors, not SM NPO, and edited under licence. SM's copyright is at that point almost a matter of sophistry.
If Norv was a member, that changes things somewhat. It is still copyrighted to SMF contributors above all else, and contributions were licensed to SM, but the position of editorial stance is somewhat more tenable. Though the copyright clearly needs to indicate contributors and I'd even argue it should indicate the licensing situation (that contributions were licensed to SM). The entire thing's a clusterfuck, no argument.The team did not chase Illori away. As a matter of fact, many of us begged her to stay. There were some personality conflicts between her method and those who disagreed with her that she felt were insoluble - but to the bets of my knoweldge no one "Chased her out"
Yes, we have had two people (three?) removed from the team - 2 of them for fairly serious infractions.
I don't count them, because they were in violation of basic ethical guidelines, let alone the team agreement.
Also don't forget TE who felt he could not contribute as a developer unless he became part of the NPO but was not able to do that due to other matters.
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well, I find it hard to be any sort of unemotional when Norv is involved. She has frequently attacked me directly and personally (admittedly, and I her) Anyway, that's beside the point.
I don't quite agree with your belief that the lead dev (aka the primary editorial controller) needs to be an NPO member. The PROJECT exists under the NPO and all assets belong to the NPO for use by, for and with the project(s). However, yes, Norv was not only an NPO member, she was also a member of the board from day 1.
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well, I find it hard to be any sort of unemotional when Norv is involved. She has frequently attacked me directly and personally (admittedly, and I her) Anyway, that's beside the point
I don't quite agree with your belief that the lead dev (aka the primary editorial controller) needs to be an NPO member.
The PROJECT exists under the NPO and all assets belong to the NPO for use by, for and with the project(s).
Do you *own* Windows on your computer? No, you do not. You own a licence to use it on your computer. Do you *own* Linux on your server? No, you do not. You own a licence to use it on your server.
Just as I don't own SMF. I own a licence to use its code. You don't own SMF. You own a licence to use its code.
SM does not own its code. It owns a licence to use that code. That is what the CLA grants, and that's all it grants, once you distil the wording. The DCO is pretty explicit in this point, actually.
I own the things I make myself. I own large parts of Wedge's code. Nao owns large parts of Wedge's code. We don't own the totality of Wedge's code, we have a licence to use it in the way we are using it. The licence even permits us to relicence it but only on the totality of the work, even if we go closed source, the reality is that we're only relicensing our changes on top of SMF as a distributed work also incorporating other projects in conjunction with their licensing terms.
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thing is... this is a different case from Windows, etc... where you are purchasing your license to USE the end product.
the lead dev of the project functions as the editor.
the project has the right to claim editorial status copyright
the project is owned by the corp, therefore the corp owns the same right to the editorial copyright of the compiled work that is SMF
(not any idnvidual piece of code - that is still owned, individually by each contributor - no one has ever claimed otherwise and that is one of the things that gets me about Norv's arguments... she seesm to think that the corp is trying to force developers to give up rights to their code or to claim the code as their own. SM has no desire to do that and - once the issue was pointed out, agreed that the copyright needed to be adjusted.)
As for whether there were better ways to "force" the issue, I think we both agree that Norv's way was the wrong way to go about it -- although I'm sure you (or someone else) will argue that anything less would have been ignored, that is debatable and a pointless argument at this time. :)
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thing is... this is a different case from Windows, etc... where you are purchasing your license to USE the end product.
You don't own Windows, you get a licence to use it in certain ways. Pay for certain things, you'll get a less restricted licence.
You don't own Linux, you get a licence that lets you use it in certain ways. It is less restrictive than Windows' licence but it is much closer to SMF's licence.the lead dev of the project functions as the editor.
the project has the right to claim editorial status copyright
the project is owned by the corp, therefore the corp owns the same right to the editorial copyright of the compiled work that is SMF
not any idnvidual piece of code - that is still owned, individually by each contributor - no one has ever claimed otherwise and that is one of the things that gets me about Norv's arguments... she seesm to think that the corp is trying to force developers to give up rights to their code or to claim the code as their own. SM has no desire to do that and - once the issue was pointed out, agreed that the copyright needed to be adjusted.
It seems you still do not understand the difference or why it is important. It is the underpinning of why the claim of 'editorial oversight' is frankly ridiculous and why the copyright statement is incorrect.although I'm sure you (or someone else) will argue that anything less would have been ignored,
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Oh noes! Look what just appeared in the dreaded parenthesis thread! I'm sure glad I was able to capture this for the record before the head-knockers come along.
Much ado about a parenthesis ;)
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http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=431671.msg3027374#msg3027374 :angel: (moderators board, so no public access)
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yup... was also discussed elsewhere/
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Hey no fair :P
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The person I was talking to passed me off to the next poor soul down the chain over there. So now they are trying to determine what I want to happen to make things right.
They know what I want done. What happens will tell me a lot.
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lets tell the truth now and stop that bs xrunner, I passed you to k@ as your message was on about various support team members, and I have personal issues meaning I could not answer you in a suitable time frame, nor in a suitable manner. In simple terms end of term at uni and I have a report I need to pass and an exam coming up, I have even posted in team boards stating I wont be as active.
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lets tell the truth now and stop that bs xrunner, I passed you to k@ as your message was on about various support team members, and I have personal issues meaning I could not answer you in a suitable time frame, nor in a suitable manner. In simple terms end of term at uni and I have a report I need to pass and an exam coming up, I have even posted in team boards stating I wont be as active.
WTF? Do you want me to reveal all those details without your permission?
For fucks sake - you all must make up rules by the minute! If you have time to come here why don't you deal with the problem it would have been over by now!
Fuck me to tears.
Edit: And now people know I'm talking to K@! All these revelations are YOUR fault. :-/
Edit #2: I had to go to SMF and PM K@ to tell him that I did not violate what I told him, that I was not going to say who I was talking with and not quote any PMs. You sure made a mess dude.
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http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=431671.msg3027374#msg3027374 :angel: (moderators board, so no public access)
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Play nice children.
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emanuele was just posting a link to the thread discussing your deleting posts and the reaction we had and that I took. :)
It's all water under the bridge at this point.
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I'll try to. :)
emanuele was just posting a link to the thread discussing your deleting posts and the reaction we had and that I took. :)
It's all water under the bridge at this point.
He's put forward a suggestion as to how we can all get this over with. I said I'd be willing to go along if you and Kays would do the same. Are you willing to move forward and try to get along? I am if you are. I'd first say to you I apologize for calling you a coward.
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ummm... I'll point out one thing. The link emanuele pointed to was regarding the conversation ARANTOR and I were having. which predates your involvement in SMF in any way shape or form.
You're not the center of the world.
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ummm... I'll point out one thing. The link emanuele pointed to was regarding the conversation ARANTOR and I were having.
You're not the center of the world.
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I don't care what the hidden links were about. I kind of object to posting links to hidden resources here if you're not going to explain what the link is about or why it is relevant. Had the links mentioned what they were talking about, at least two snide comments here would have been avoided.
which predates your involvement in SMF in any way shape or form.
ummm... I'll point out one thing. The link emanuele pointed to was regarding the conversation ARANTOR and I were having. which predates your involvement in SMF in any way shape or form.
You're not the center of the world.
It's not being 'at the centre of the world', it's making an assumption based on a lack of evidence and not an unfair assumption given what context us mere mortals have. Don't be disingenuous.
I'm well aware how all the parties seem to see their respective positions, and you'll notice I haven't exactly gone all gung-ho on this because frankly it's a waste of time all around. It's fairly clear there is a two tier environment around sm.org, and there is a lot of speculation and conjecture as to why that might be, but what is clear are what the consequences are: that it is one rule for some people and one rule for everyone else.
I still not believe xrunner has gone any further 'overboard' than I have in the past and with a far greater level of rebuke than anything I'd seen myself. In short, I do believe this has been blown out of proportion, and that xrunner has a point. I won't defend it to its fullest extent, because while I believe he has a valid grievance, I don't believe it is entirely as bad as he has stated, but there IS a problem. (And it is a problem, as opposed to an aesthetic difference.)
The heart of it comes back to the point I have made time and again: why should people receive the answer to their question, if they're asking the wrong question?
How many times have I refused to answer someone's question because I don't believe that what they're doing is in the best interest of their community? This is, at its heart, no different, even if it is only an aesthetic matter. The correct question after "I have a problem" is "why is it a problem?" unless the problem by definition can be obviously and clearly seen to be a problem by its nature. Something not working as expected isn't necessarily a problem, it could be a matter of a difference of expectation between the user and the designer. (This has happened to me enough times, where a user is trying to use something in a way inconsistent with how it was designed to be used, and reported it as a bug when it is not.)
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch -
I loaded everything almost Avatars file, because I thing that I don't need to overwrite this. Unfortunately nothing helped, the space is still in that parentheses
Will rimh101 ever get rid of those spaces?
Will Drunken Clam get into trouble for posting in the thread?
Will xrunner ever question another user why they want something fixed?
Stay tuned for answers to those and other questions in further episodes of "As the Parenthesis Turns" ...
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If he replaced all the files, it would PUT THE SPACES BACK! *applause all round*
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Will Drunken Clam get into trouble for posting in the thread?
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lol... I know arantor - but, IIRC, his problem was that the parens ended up being uneven (space on one side, not on the other) I was asking him if it went back to being even... (and I just realized that wasn't clear.. oops... *runs back to smf to correct the post)
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lol... I know arantor - but, IIRC, his problem was that the parens ended up being uneven (space on one side, not on the other) I was asking him if it went back to being even... (and I just realized that wasn't clear.. oops... *runs back to smf to correct the post)
1. He doesn't want the spaces on either side on this line --> Latest Post: "Re: Adk Blog (New versio..." ( Today at 12:31:33 PM )
^^^ My forum is operating OK and has these spaces, so reloading won't fix that.
2. He's got one space here at the beginning paren. he doesn't want --> Most Online Today: 39. Most Online Ever: 77 ( February 11, 2012, 14:15:19 PM)
^^^ My forum is operating OK and DOESN"T have that first space. Isn't the re-loading of his forum supposed to only address the last space issue? It can't fix the first one because that's the design. And it won't make even spaces on the second problem because the default is no spaces (like my forum).
You seemed to think it would make all spaces come back "now - do note: this will reset your files to the default, which means that ALL SPACES WILL BE BACK.
I'm spaced out myself now.
Reference his complaint here -@Storman™
I don't understand what exactly you mean, I wrote clearly and understanding where I have a problem on my forum, first post is about:
Latest Post: "Re: Adk Blog (New versio..." ( Today at 12:31:33 PM )
So how you see, here is something different, but I have a problem with that:
Most Online Today: 39. Most Online Ever: 77 ( February 11, 2012, 14:15:19 PM)
Do you understand?
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Oh my.
I see the parenthesis thread isn't dead yet. He;s stillnot satisfied.
I see Arantor can tell the dude he's a waste of time (which I agree with), but I get kicked in the balls by a staff member for asking him why it was a problem. :lol:
Hahahahaha. It's like I have another comedy channel to tune into now.
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That's the thing, though... yes, I said there was a waste of time but my choice of wording was very careful. You can draw the conclusion that it's an insult. You can also draw the conclusion it is a statement of fact because I didn't outright say *he* was a waste of time. Merely that even when it was explained 'it was proven to be...' because it was, all the effort has largely been a waste of everybody's time.
Ambiguity is very important ;)
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That's the thing, though... yes, I said there was a waste of time but my choice of wording was very careful. You can draw the conclusion that it's an insult. You can also draw the conclusion it is a statement of fact because I didn't outright say *he* was a waste of time. Merely that even when it was explained 'it was proven to be...' because it was, all the effort has largely been a waste of everybody's time.
Ambiguity is very important ;)
You know, I asked K@ to show me the rules that apply to people responding to members seeking help, and he never could point me to any. Funny ha ha.
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That's the greatest matter of issue for sm.org; there actually aren't any rules anywhere, it's simply 'don't be a jerk' for any given judgement of jerkness. Which is where half the problems begin.
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That's the greatest matter of issue for sm.org; there actually aren't any rules anywhere, it's simply 'don't be a jerk' for any given judgement of jerkness. Which is where half the problems begin.
But if I "perceive" I want to find out why a fucking space after a parenthesis is a big deal, well that's completely insane. I'm a total asshole. I'm damn near worthy of being banned for that.
Well you know what I perceive? The way things are done there is idiotic. Oh, and everyone's opinion is valid (except when a moderator perceives it isn't).
Now - bring on the trolls (you know whop you are)!
(http://www.atheistthinktank.net/HAL/threadbombs/deliverance1.jpg)
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I just finished sending a PM about my situation. In response to the typical mushy "we're just human" sort of cold oatmeal they're feeding me, the PM involved explaining to the staff recipient what forum rules are for and why they would have prevented problems like mine. I'm not kidding. I'm explaining rules to a staff member at SMF. If anyone's interested I'll post relevant parts of what I said only.
The only post approaching any sort of rules for the SMF forum as a whole that I could find is this thread -
Forum Etiquette and behavior(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=26831.0)
It's locked so I can't get a proper quote link. It was last modified in 2006. It unfortunately has a lot of off-topic chitter chatter but here's a few gems -
Jeff Lewis:As a general rule of thumb do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you are typing up a response you feel is clever and spiteful, rethink your post.
Some people may take a comment to be nothing much but others may take it very personally. People need to be aware of these differences and respect that we're not at all the same.
Here's a real gem -
Joshua Dickerson:Each board has its own rules.
Oh and I always like to close with Mr. Runic's famous "Everyone's opinion is valid"
Ha ha ha. That one kills me.
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I will reserve my comments about Joshua for another venue. (Suffice to say I consider him in much the same league as I do Labradoodle, that should tell you everything you need to know)
The biggest problem with sm.org is that the rules are unspoken and vague and not consistently employed as a result.
The 'mushy' 'we're all human' is true. We are all human, we do interpret different things in different ways, but having some guidance on what is appropriate behaviour and what is not would go a long way. It'd probably even curb my temper at times. The problem is that having rules is perceived as though it would curb creativity and people having their say, and that's historically been a huge problem with sm.org as a whole - and to me, it's one reason why things aren't working, consistently and thoroughly across the board.Each board may have it's own subjective judgement calls by staff, but no, there are no "rules" for each board.
There is an unspoken set of rules for each board. Some have a more explicit 'we'd like you to post xyz' but it never really works out.
And Runic is right, everyone's opinion IS valid. It may be based on incomplete or incorrect facts but it is a valid opinion nonetheless. The problem is that there are those who shout down valid opinions for apparent invalidity.
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This is the closest thing to a rule you may find:
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/values.php
http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/User:AngelinaBelle/SMF_team_manual (mostly outdated but should be still sort of valid)
and I wouldn't have (and want) anything more than that to define the acceptable behaviour of a person in an environment (heck I've never found rules on how to behave when I enter a pub, I just use my brain and my common sense).
If I may express my opinion :
1) you were in the wrong discussion for deciding what is a problem with SMF and what not (the correct topic was the one opened by rimh101 in bug reports, every other topic is mostly related to personal preferences unless is spotted by someone that will actually *do* something in relation to SMF).
2) if you are so picky to nitpick on the words usage you may first notice if the person you are nitpicking is writing an English that is prone to be nitpicked (do note that rimh101's English is not perfect, so maybe the word "problem" has two different meanings for him and for you).
That said I'm t interested in debating more than this, so do not expect any answer from me on this topic any more (I may, but it would just be a lucky event if I do).
Also: do not waste time nitpicking my English, I'm not a native English speaker and I learned it in a quite advanced age, so it's far from good.
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That said I'm t interested in debating more than this, so do not expect any answer from me on this topic any more (I may, but it would just be a lucky event if I do).
So we get a statement from on-high and then "Dear little xrunner, you should be honored that my presence has graced this thread. I will now return to my palace to rule over the other little people".
You know what? You can't handle the truth.
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The problem with the values is that it's only a requirement on the team's behalf. The team manual is also primarily for the team in terms of responding to users - thing is, neither xrunner nor I are team members.
Validity is fine :)
1) If you notice, he wasn't deciding whether it was a problem in SMF. He was trying to find out *why* it is a problem. Because, as quite rightly pointed out, spaces were added for a reason relating to readability. If there is a reason for not having the spaces for a given language, then it needs to be flagged up.
Since when did personal aesthetic preferences get flagged as bugs? I don't like the shade of blue in the header, is that a bug?
There IS a legitimate case of a rogue space that was a bug, but that was only a much later thing, the original topic did not have the unbalanced spaces in it.
2. This is why he was trying to get to the bottom of it. Is it a legitimate bug in SMF? Is it a personal preference? Is there a related bug?
The answers to which are no, yes, and yes. But blindly answering the guy's question would have seen them answers as yes, no and no, a very different picture.
A lot of the issue is that xrunner pushed it when others didn't - but if I hadn't realised what a stupid waste of time it would turn out to be, I'd have been pretty much the same. The question then becomes: would you guys have treated me any differently? The answer, of course, is yes. This is what it comes down to: one member is being hounded for being blunt with someone and others who have more standing in the community are not, even when objectively their attitude can be perceived to be worse.
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@Arantor - that's a really good explanation of why I'm upset. As good as I've been able to do on my own.
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The question then becomes: would you guys have treated me any differently? The answer, of course, is yes.
You know, on my forum I deal with delusional members all the time, but I never thought I would deal with them on the SMF forum.
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I'm sorry, that is indeed somewhat misguided. I absolutely refuse to believe I would have been treated in the same way because of the number of times I have done similar things!
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hey Arantor - without getting into it any further, and solely in the interest of truth...
He has twisted the words and meaning and that's not what K@ actually said to him.
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hey Arantor - without getting into it any further, and solely in the interest of truth...
He has twisted the words and meaning and that's not what K@ actually said to him.
But, Kays isn't the idiot that you make him out to be. (comment: I have no idea where that came from, I've never called ANYONE AT SMF AN IDIOT!) If it'd been Arantor who'd made that one push too many, I believe that he'd've done exactly the same.
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The comment made in that PM was made to me directly elsewhere, and I don't agree. I do not believe I would have had the same reprimand, verbal or otherwise, as xrunner had, had I done the same thing. Thing is, I've arguably done much worse and not had a single comment about it!
However, I am only too aware that a lot of this stuff is a matter of perception and that no-one's really that far in the right here :/
We all react to what we perceive - and he perceives an injustice. I perceive a sort of injustice too, but to a lesser degree. I also perceive that I didn't stay particularly involved in the thread in question because I knew ultimately where it would lead (exactly where it did). I also perceive there to be double standards above and beyond what would normally be expected on a forum, especially one that theoretically is supposed to be professional. I accept that double standards are inevitable, but that they should be curbed where possible.
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Well, Arantor, I think that the matter is actually quite simple.
Yes, there are different sets of standards - as with life. You get what you earn.
there those users, like yourself, who have proven helpful over and over and over (with or without snark)
There are users who try to help but are frequently mistaken (if they accept correction, they can move up in estimation, if not, they move down)
there are also users who have not proven anything except that they like to complain and make trouble...
te first set get a fair amount of slack.
the second set get slack enough to hang themselves or pull themselves up...
the third set don't get any slack at all and have to work their way up to ground level to even see the rope
(and of course, there are all sorts of "levels" in between as well, it's not all cut and dried as some seem to think or want.)
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Well, Arantor, I think that the matter is actually quite simple.
Yes, there are different sets of standards - as with life. You get what you earn.
there those users, like yourself, who have proven helpful over and over and over (with or without snark)
There are users who try to help but are frequently mistaken (if they accept correction, they can move up in estimation, if not, they move down)
there are also users who have not proven anything except that they like to complain and make trouble...
te first set get a fair amount of slack.
the second set get slack enough to hang themselves or pull themselves up...
the third set don't get any slack at all and have to work their way up to ground level to even see the rope
(and of course, there are all sorts of "levels" in between as well, it's not all cut and dried as some seem to think or want.)
If those are the rules, then put it in print as the rules for the SMF support forum.
Here, I'll start you off dear -
There are different sets of standards on the SMF forum- as with life. You get what you earn.
1. There those users, who have proven helpful over and over and over (with or without snark)
2. There are users who try to help but are frequently mistaken (if they accept correction, they can move up in estimation, if not, they move down)
3. There are also users who have not proven anything except that they like to complain and make trouble...
Summary: The first set get a fair amount of slack.
the second set get slack enough to hang themselves or pull themselves up...
the third set don't get any slack at all and have to work their way up to ground level to even see the rope
Now, that wasn't so hard was it dear? That's the problem in a nutshell. There are no rules governing how people get to respond! Just flesh it out a bit more and you'll have it ready for your forum. :+1:
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I just sent back a constructive PM that has three options that I believe would have resulted in a much better outcome. It doesn't address the core issues of double standards, but these options remove the drama from the thread. Basic forum moderating skills.
Option A (in the thread) -
xrunner, can I have a go at rimh101 for a few posts? Let me try to see what can be done with a one-on-one between me and him, OK?
Option B (in a PM) -
Send me a PM and tell me politely what he wants me to do in the thread - this way it takes away any possible drama out of the thread.
Option C (Warning system) -
I could have been issued a 10% warning notice from the system and I would never have known who sent it. All they had to do was explain what they wanted to do in the warning message. Do they even know how to use the warning system? What a weird thought ...
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All they had to do was explain what they wanted to do in the warning message. Do they even know how to use the warning system? What a weird thought ...
You know... That warning system? Other than to mute Spamtards, I've never, ever, used it!
So ... why did they even put in the warning system if the very people supporting it don't use it! :oops:
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It was funnier when you had people with the developer badge that weren't even using 2.0.
The reason why they use it to ban instead of actually using a ban is because only admins have the ban power and using the warning system in SMF to mute users is cheaper in performance terms than using the ban system itself. (Coincidentally, using an infraction to actually ban a user is cheaper in Wedge than using the ban system to ban a user is too. And for a similar reason.)
The warning system is useful, though I'll admit not as powerful as it could be.
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In the future, I imagine this will be the support forum for Wedge.
In that future, I'm pretty sure I'll be hanging around here, trying to learn from some level, and help from another.
In that future, it's possible I might ask a new user about a small concern they have, about a space, or some other item.
Why, for example, they might think it's a problem, just for understanding.
Just letting you all know in case you want to start setting up penalties ... :)
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meh :whistle:
Cyberbullying is defined in legal glossaries as
actions that use information and communication technologies to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm another or others.
use of communication technologies for the intention of harming another person
use of internet service and mobile technologies such as web pages and discussion groups as well as instant messaging or SMS text messaging with the intention of harming another person.
Examples of what constitutes cyberbullying include communications that seek to intimidate, control, manipulate, put down, falsely discredit, or humiliate the recipient. The actions are deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior intended to harm another. Cyberbullying has been defined by The National Crime Prevention Council: “When the Internet, cell phones or other devices are used to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person."