Wedge

Public area => Off-topic => The Pub => Other software => Topic started by: Arantor on February 22nd, 2013, 07:08 PM

Title: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Arantor on February 22nd, 2013, 07:08 PM
First up, I generally try to avoid profanity, but I'm just not able to figure out a better way to express it, so it is with a title that sums up my feelings in a short, sweet film reference.

I write this as me, a former SMF contributor. not with my 'Wedgeward' hat on.

I shouldn't really dignify the comments that have been made, and simply ignore them with all the contempt they deserve but that is not my way. Being open about things, including my feelings, is pretty damn important to me. It is also ironic that this is one of the failings I will be talking about.


I am aware of the things said in private about me and Norv, about how we want SMF to die and so on.[1]

I find it interesting how they won't say it to our face, they won't level these comments to our faces but they'll say it behind our backs where we can't deal with it.

It's wrong, of course. The comments we've been making aren't trying to kill SMF, we're trying to explain why SMF is doing so well at trying to kill itself. If it's going to survive, it needs to be more open with its community, just as a start. Like a roadmap or even some idea what SMF 2.1 is supposed to be... it's only been 20 months in the making and no-one outside of Github reviewers really knows what's actually in it. There are some vague comments about new features but it's hardly much more than straight up marketing spiel.

For any project that would be fairly poor, but for a project that spent so much time trying to claim it is open, that's truly poor. It is also a major contributing factor.

Here's one thing some people don't seem to understand: Wedge is a closed project. We are, and have always been, hesitant to accept contributions from third parties, we haven't revealed a roadmap or anything... but 1) we've  always made it clear that we have the role of benevolent dictators for Wedge and 2) we do actually involve our community in things. I suggest new ideas and features at least once a week specifically for community involvement in shaping those ideas.

Contrast this to SMF: a project that claims to be open, that has an organisation to support project development, with a project team of about two dozen people (which is low, I remember it at times being 40+). On top of that there is a Board of Directors who makes decisions that not even the team are fully made aware of, even as organisation members. (Because that's good, right?) They're not even open amongst themselves, let alone open with the community as a whole.

No plans have been announced for 2.1 development as such, or indeed anything beyond that. Truth of the matter: the lead dev in 2.0 didn't even want 2.1 to exist. I understand that - she wanted SMF to progress on smCore and devote all its time to that. The project had a rumbling and decided that 2.1 was necessary to prevent SMF falling even further behind - with the understanding that smCore + SMF would be at least 2 years away from that point. And so it came into being - in 2011. Except here we are in 2013 and only alphas of a 'small incremental release' have been hinted at, and nothing beyond 2.1 has been even mentioned, as smCore is clearly defunct now. (But again, lack of transparency about all of this.)

I understand that development is slow, I understand that only too well. But why is there no real communication about the roadmap? I'm not asking for chapter and verse, or pointing fingers at people for not doing their job properly. I'm just trying to point out that this organisation is failing to do a key job in onward development. (Our changelog is very public.)

At this point you can turn around and say that we haven't released a roadmap either and that we could be called hypocritical. It'd also be wrong, but you could claim it. The entire thing is one long rolling upgrade at this point in time. We can't tell you exactly what Wedge 1.0 will be, because it's still growing and evolving. Setting arbitrary boundaries at this stage would actually limit what we do. Right now we're still figuring out some of the key things we want to have. But what we do have is very public and we encourage discussion on it.

While we're on the name calling angle, actually, there is a claim from certain members of the project that people like me and Norv have 'more credibility' than the SMF team and 'how evil they must be' and so on.[2] It's all bullshit.

The reason we have more 'credibility' is because we don't do stuff in private much, neither Wedge nor ElkArte.[3] We try to involve everyone where possible. We certainly don't sit in a tower on high making decisions about things, especially things that we aren't going to get involved with making. You don't see a project sitting above Nao and myself telling us what we should be writing.

But more than that, I'm not interested in killing SMF. I never have been. I saw back in 2009 when I first joined the team that it was in trouble. It's still there, despite everything I'd done in the meantime, despite everything Norv did, despite everything that's happened - it's still in trouble. If I genuinely thought SMF was so poor and I wanted it to die, why did I spend a lot of time on support issues? Could it be because somewhere, I still care? Nah, that would controvert this idea that I want SMF to die, and god forbid we should let the truth get in the way of a righteous smiting.

I should also add, I have heard it said that the community shouldn't have been made aware of the drama in the team in the past. Except this to me is a colossal problem. That implies that the team are not part of the community. That they're somehow removed from the community. Now, the team are all heavyweight contributors to the project, I have no beef with that. What I have a problem with is the notion that being long-time contributors somehow makes their opinion more important than the rest of the community's.

Compare and contrast that with Wedge. There are only two people in this project whose opinion outweighs everyone else's. There is also a small group of people whose opinion outranks others. This is not really a secret. But let me explain how it works.

The top two people are Nao and myself. We write the vast bulk of Wedge's code. That gives us final say on what happens. The reason, then, that our opinion is more important is not because we have inflated egos or anything but because we're the ones *actually doing it*.

The second group of people I mention are the Consultants. The reason they have an opinion we pay more attention to is because, again, they're actually doing it. They're looking at the code, they're actively writing code that has been taken under consideration and in some cases even drafted into the core. Again, because they're actually getting down and dirty with the code, we pay them some extra attention.

Then there's everyone else. It is not to say that we don't listen - because we certainly do. We listen to every comment and every thread that gets made. We're not under any prerogative to accept it, just as I'm not under any prerogative to accept any code Nao writes and he, I, vice versa.

Compare this with SMF. They have a vast group of people who are not code authors, who are not getting down into the code suggesting how things could/should/must be done. Why is their opinion more important than the regular users? Should it be so? I'd say not... you can be a major contributor without being a 'team member'. I've proved that. I can happily make thousands of posts without being a team member or without having a badge, and my opinion is considered as valid as a team member's in most cases because it's backed up by experience and/or code. So the badge is not a requirement. It is the worst kind of meritocracy, the self-serving, self-selecting kind.


So with the latest salvo (e.g. Motoko's snide comments, and the comment about the only place I want to see SMF is down the drain), I might as well just leech off sm.org rather than contribute because it's increasingly clear my comments aren't wanted.[4] Since the management is already convinced that I'm desperately trying to kill SMF, I might as well indulge them in that by taking Wedge so far beyond SMF that it'll never catch up. Then it can die a quiet, hopefully painless death because that's the best it can hope for now.

There's the gauntlet, folks, thrown down, right there.

:edit: by Nao: both clarified and concealed topic subject... :eheh:
 1. Norv and I don't exactly get on, but we do have some mutual respect for the position each other holds. I have other issues with some of the things she has said and done, however for me at least, most of them are in the past.
 2. Again, notice this hasn't been said in public. The only public comment is how according to one team member, Norv is just delusional. She's not, of course. She's just more hardline about things and I'm pretty convinced that she's right about a lot of things in this whole matter. But hey, I've been called wilfully dense by the team before, it's only a matter of time before I'm called delusional too.
 3. We did in the early days. But right now almost everything of the stuff happens in public and that's entirely by design.
 4. Their bug reports, their feature suggestions etc.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Maxx on February 22nd, 2013, 07:57 PM
I guess that about covers it, I never had reason to believe you ever wished ill will on or to  SMF, Always thought you were trying to keep it moving along, But I have no Idea what goes on over there, except the little I read. But I think when anyone wants something to be better than it is or faster than it moving, It seems always that it's, miss understood the intentions of that person or people. I also feel there may be a break down communications, somewhere. or even miss information.
Just because we see differently does not mean, we are disagreeing, or disliking! We just look at it from another angle!
One thing for certain is here it just you guys and the other stuff is secondary!


regards,
Maxx




Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on February 23rd, 2013, 12:01 AM
Sorry to say I do agree, and I'm a team member over there... -_-
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Suki on February 23rd, 2013, 12:43 AM
I'll find it incredible ridiculous to think any of you guys want to see SMF die. Anyone can just take a look here or at the other fork board to realize thats simply not the case.  SMF now lives in wedge and elkarte, as simple as that and is because of them that SMF is still alive.


What they fail to see is that SMF is an open source project now, this means the load doesn't have to be carried out by the team members alone...

Been open source means you are not alone anymore!
You are not isolated.

There is a whole world out there that can potentially help out...  question is, why do the SMF team tries so hard to refuse any external help?

And yes, they do not have any idea on whats gonna happen after 2.1 (and if they do, they are doing a truly remarkable job in keeping it hidden, which again, contradicts with the whole open source paradigm), why do they don't have any idea? because they pushed out the ones who had any ideas, now those ideas are been deployed outside SMF because outside SMF is the only place where you can act.

Been an open source now ain't magically fix years and years of self closed mentality.

Theres a lot of stuff that needs to be done... for instance, take away the mentality where a team member is a separate entity, almost a deity that doesn't need to interact with the rest of the community, that is just wrong.... team members were community once and still are community, there is no difference.

a lot of team members desperately need to create another account over there and see whats the forum looks like as a regular member, seriously, they have been team  members for a really long time that they had forgotten about how they started.

Where are the programs that will keep the community closer to the community?

Community customizer is dead
Support Helper of the Month is dead too.

Where are the efforts to try t get close to the community?
Where are the topics about how to get involved with git and development?

Is just as simple as saying, hey there, this is a list of things we had planned:

Thats all, thats all it needs to get people at least interested on SMF again.
I simple announcement saying SMF is now open source, some google adwords campaigns, dunno, there is a lot of things marketing can be done right now, most of them are free.

People very often goes to SMF looking for advice on how the get their community active, well, now is the perfect time for team members to apply all those advices they provided into SMF's own support site. Because people concerned about SMF ain't killing SMF, is the very own team the one that is killing it, by not caring about it, by thinking they are superior to anyone else and by taking for granted that the community will always be there for them...

Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on February 23rd, 2013, 01:59 AM
Indeed the problem is that devs haven't got the power. Actually on free projects I'm sure the only way to manage power is to give it to devs. Different is on a company or a paid project. Devs are paid and they need to do determinate things, if not they're fired. So on free project there's no other way than devs at power.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Maxx on February 23rd, 2013, 02:45 PM
I'd also like to add that, many of us still like and use the SMF system and I myself am working on themes ideas for the 2,0.4 and the 2.1 Alpha, and also working on the idea of producing Themes that will work on WordPress and other CMS projects as well.

Please, they will not at all be the same coding, but the idea is to match them, so you can have 2, communities with the same looks and feel, If all goes well.

But the point is many are still working and counting on the success of the SMF system, But have no clue where it is headed!
never the less we keep working on the stuff, and let other know what we up to!

regards,
Maxx
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on February 23rd, 2013, 10:39 PM
I was the only one trying to revive the MOTM[1] and TOTM[2] rewards, but shortly after that it died again since I can't handle and decide these things on my own and the rest of the team just had no interest it seems. SHOTM has been remade into Support Helper of the Moment, not of the Month.

There are no plans for 3.0 or 2.2 as of yet.
 1. Mod Of The Month, reward used to be given to an intuitive mod every mod
 2. Theme Of The Month, reward used to be given to an intuitive theme every month
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: emanuele on February 24th, 2013, 01:04 AM
Yoshi, if you take a look at the old topics you will see you have not been the only one, just the last one (in time, for now).

P.S.
What the heck is your avatar?
I always wanted to ask, but always forgot...
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on February 24th, 2013, 01:07 AM
Quote
Yoshi, if you take a look at the old topics you will see you have not been the only one, just the last one (in time, for now).
From the dawn of time we came
Moving silently down through the centuries
Living many secret lives,
Struggling to reach the time of the Gathering
When the few who remain will battle to the last
No-one has ever known we were among you... until now.
Quote
What the heck is your avatar?
I always wanted to ask, but always forgot...
It is GlaDOS from the Portal games. The one who promises cake.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Maxx on February 24th, 2013, 01:13 AM
Egyptian gods
 carved in stone, for ever!

regards,
Maxx
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on February 24th, 2013, 01:18 AM
I thought Ema was asking about Yoshi's avatar. Mine is the album cover of one of the, IMO, best metal albums ever written - Powerslave by Iron Maiden.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: emanuele on February 24th, 2013, 01:23 AM
Quote from Arantor on February 24th, 2013, 01:07 AM
From the dawn of time we came
Moving silently down through the centuries
Living many secret lives,
Struggling to reach the time of the Gathering
When the few who remain will battle to the last
No-one has ever known we were among you... until now.
And I can go bed laughing. :lol:
/melooks at the dvd...no, it's too late now.
Quote from Arantor on February 24th, 2013, 01:07 AM
It is GlaDOS from the Portal games. The one who promises cake.
I stopped play way too long ago...

Yep, it was Yoshi's avatar, though Arantor, your was on the list for the next time. :P
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Maxx on February 24th, 2013, 01:27 AM
My Bad!

regards,
Maaxx
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on March 15th, 2013, 05:25 AM
Turning the light on in a mushroom barn is self defeating. It stunts the growth and requires more shit to be spread when questions abound. :whistle:
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Oracle on March 15th, 2013, 04:37 PM
On ya bike!!! :eheh:
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 04:45 PM
Oh, I'm waiting until Saturday because all hell's going to break loose then. Or more accurately, depending on who does what, shit will fly.

Some of you may know that Labradoodle has been working on his Menu Editor Pro mod. I'd believed for a long time it was vapourware but it actually exists. So I bought a copy, directly from him (refusing to give vbgamer a cut, of course) for the list price. And he should know I don't need it or intend to use it but to review it.

I sent him my comments, of which there were a great many negative ones, and I told him I was going to give him three days to figure out what to do about it, before I made it public. Then yesterday I made a comment about the mod, about how it doesn't work properly with SimpleDesk even though it claims to, plus doesn't work as far as I can see with Dream Portal, TinyPortal or PortaMX or Aeva for that matter, and he deleted it. I can't wait to see whether he will delete the post on Saturday or not. But I've already spoken to a couple of the moderators there.

See, here's the problem, and it's firmly one of his own making, as far as I'm concerned. If you're making a paid mod (especially one that's quite expensive, especially given that there are free mods that do most of the same thing), it should be your best work. But he's an SMF dev, so that's the standard of quality I'm going to hold him up to - because if he isn't writing at that level, he has no business being an SMF dev. And paid mods are usually a fairly good indication of the quality someone's going to turn out generally. And I'm not impressed in the slightest. There's a fair amount of reinventing the wheel here, and not for a good reason.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 04:48 PM
He made a mod to edit an array?
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:00 PM
He made 5,000 lines of mod to make a nice interface around editing that array. Including such gems as a 50 line easter egg loaded every page, and his own file caching system that insists on pretty-printing everything, including comments, to a file, as opposed to, say, using serialize.

In fact, lemme dig out all my comments. I tried to treat it exactly as I would a conventional mod review: study the code first then reviewing it in use.



modifications.xml
1. QueryString edit need not be an actual edit, it should have been tied to the integrate_buffer hook.

2. I'm presuming the first Subs edit is to make sure it's after the menu hook? You could always do what SimpleSEF does and check the position of the hook periodically and if it isn't the last entry, adjust the hooks.
The only advantage is that anyone who added their code after the main code (like SimpleDesk) might be caught by it.

3. Why not just ditch the first edit to Subs and wrap everything up in the end of the menu handler and be done with it?
This would mean you would have one edit (and only one edit) but you'd know you'd nail every single item, hook or otherwise, just do a bit more clean-up on it.

4. With the index.php edit, exactly the same deal, do it on the actions hook, and do it last, you can even fix the hook check for any hooks you do use if you want to.
That said, I can see the logic of doing it there, in the hopes of cleaning up any mods that injected after the main array - but there are very few of those.


*install_mep_hooks.php
There is a part of me that wants to recommend a single file, and whether it's installing or uninstalling is based on whether it finds the mod's files.
Certainly it would mean that if you add new or change hooks later, it's one less thing to remember to maintain.


integrate.php
theLegacy() - yay for easter eggs. Amusing comments are fine, but big easter eggs of 50 lines of code, especially one that loads *every page* is not clever.

Also, integrate.php is included with integrate_pre_include, but I see at least it's included in the code modification. I'd also prefer to see the admin hook function not to be loaded every page load - every bit of parsing is important.


global.php
Seems to me this could easily be in the main code. Kind of surprised Aeva isn't in there.

Also a bit annoyed at the way SD support is handled. If it exists, Subs-SimpleDesk.php will already be loaded, no need to reinclude it again, just check for the function existence, will do the same job without the performance of a non-firing require_once.

The last bit in global.php could be streamlined to:

Code: [Select]
if ($deny_security === false && !$response)
{
if (!empty($button['membergroups']))
{
$these_membergroups = explode(',', $button['membergroups']);
foreach ($these_membergroups as $value)
if (in_array($value, $user_info['groups']))
return true;
}
}
return false;

There's other various minor optimisations like that - if something starts out as false, then through some process becomes true, and can't ever become false again, you might as well exit as soon as you know it's true, rather than slogging through multiple loops whose outcome won't change it any further. Also, no need to pull the keys if you're not going to use them.

If you really wanted to go nuts, you could convert that to a count(array_intersect($these_membergroups, $user_info['groups'])) > 0 but I think you'd have to be careful about type juggling.


portal-compat.php
Hmm, interesting methods of detecting whether portals are active or not, but I'll come back to that later on. Any reason TinyPortal, PortaMX and Dream Portal are excluded?


default-logs.php
I know you're listing default actions, but linking to easter eggs? about:*, modifycat, and clock are all easter eggs. I'd also discourage linking to viewquery since it's really not that useful as a menu item. In fact linking to it directly will have unintended consequences unless you're providing a query id number.


tasks.php
Why have you used your own cache? Aside from a security risk, there is a performance limit, since it's now I/O bound as opposed to being able to use memcache or similar memory cache.

If you are going to cache anything, at least look at SMF's code, serialize, addslashes, output. No need to artificially fluff the writing of the cache, also no need to make the cache bigger just to be more readable - no-one should be looking at it directly. Incidentally that makes it more likely to trip the bug that meant file_put_contents even needs LOCK_EX in the first place. And you really don't need to be dumping comments in the cache file. It's not meant to be human readable. Go look at SMF's to see how, generally, it should be done.

Also, WTF is '01001001010011000100110001001101' and why is it used as a literal value in a query without proper escaping? (Line 103. Should be pushed to a {string:var} and imported that way, not just escaped with inline backslashes, since SMF doesn't support a {literal:value} type) Hmm, that looks like ASCII... ILLM. That wouldn't be a typo on the LILM you normally dedicate your mods to, would it?

Another example of streamlining would be the switch in lines 244 onwards. Better would be to declare an array up front:

Code: [Select]
$frame_targets = array(
1 => '_parent',
2 => '_blank',
3 => '_top',
);

Then in place of the switch:
Code: [Select]
$temp['final_target'] = isset($frame_targets[$row['target']]) ? $frame_targets[$row['target']] : '_self';

Of course we'd declare the array outside the where specifically so that we don't have to redeclare it every iteration.

Similarly, the internal action three-way branch could be simplified to:
Code: [Select]
//-- Internal Action
$internal_action = '';
if ($row['link_type'] == 1 || $row['link_type'] == 3)
$internal_action = $row['href'];

On top of that, you have lists of items already imploded, which you store in the cache as such. Save yourself some time, explode that to an array, typecast all the members to ints then save it as part of the serialized array directly. It doesn't save *quite* as much room in the cache file but it'll be faster than exploding it when you come to parse it later.


OK, so now I'm actually going to try it.

Yay for an extra query, every single page, to check the packages table to see if I've suddenly installed a portal - which would be fine if I installed it through the package manager. Also, why no caching? I hear you're a big fan of that. I also hear you don't understand how to do it properly especially on a very large site where caching is absolutely critical.

Modifying buttons
1. Can't add a button just for 'regular members'.

2. Please tell me you didn't add jQuery just for slow animation effects. And if you are going to have animations, no more than 200ms for elements people want to edit (for what we do, we found 150ms for expanding panels and 200ms for closing worked best)

3. Do you really need to dump every single one of your language strings into the page? In fact, you're going to have *so* much fun with that, because json_encode is not standard even in 5.2 (WordPress had to include compatiblity functions for it even when they went 5.3 only), and the best part, json_encode doesn't even work properly on non-UTF-8 strings. It's not a problem for English, of course, but anything else it will be.

4. The Associated Permissions icon on a button seems very ambiguous, especially for admin where it's not obviously controlled by a permission, e.g the admin button is shown as not having an associated permission except that it actually doesn't just rely on group access ordinarily, it uses array('admin_forum', 'manage_boards', 'manage_permissions', 'moderate_forum', 'manage_membergroups', 'manage_bans', 'send_mail', 'edit_news', 'manage_attachments', 'manage_smileys') in fact. SP at least also adds its own to that, as well as SD doing its own thing.

5. The shiny 'Your changes have been saved' thing at the top... it would be cool if it were AJAXively saving changes, but to do it with animation when you're coming back from another page load just looks tacky.

6. Layout is buggy when SimpleDesk is enabled, when using a screen of 1000px wide, the tickbox overlaps onto the 'Button Name' textbox.

7. In fact, the SD integration doesn't work. The blue box says it will automatically be set to active when SD is enabled, or that I can enable the helpdesk button from Display Options... except it is enabled by default (the option is to turn it off), and no combination of pressing things in the SD options area allows me to re-show it. Oh, and it dumps the submenu too, both for the admin and the helpdesk items, some of which might be useful, but will need to be recreated from scratch - as will any other mods with dynamic menu items.

8. Now that I look at it again, the first time it builds the action cache, it's actually incorrect. Even if SD is installed and running (and active) then install MEP, it still doesn't let me add the button until I clear the cache. The same seems to hold true of any other mods I've tried.

9. Um, why does restoration not show anything when you first install?

10. More disturbingly for something 'so advanced and customisable', I now realise why Aeva and SD menus aren't supported... unless it fits the SMF permissions model, there's actually no way to add a button. For example Aeva's tab doesn't have any children unless there's some new items. But there's no way to configure it, which means it isn't 'completely customisable'. It's 'completely customisable provided it doesn't do anything that doesn't exactly fit SMF'.


Honestly? It feels like a beta version, not a 1.0.0 version, and certainly not from someone who has been trusted with the keys to a major platform. I go on about that but it's important. If you wrote code like this for the SMF trunk, you would get criticised for poor coding style, as quite rightly you should. If you're telling me that 5076 lines of your own code (which is what I make the code count, excluding comments and blank lines, plus excluding jQuery because you didn't write that) took you 3 years and this is the result, you have further to go than I thought.
Posted: March 15th, 2013, 04:53 PM

And remember, this is being written by a core SMF developer as a paid mod. You see now why it bothers me so much?
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: godboko71 on March 15th, 2013, 05:08 PM
Not very confidence building...
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:10 PM
Still reading the thing but I'd remove the code, just not to give him any ground.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:12 PM
Exactly my point. Had he not been on the SMF dev team, I'd have given him a lot less stick for it. Still wouldn't have been ideal, but I would have been nicer about some of the aspects of it.

Also, did I mention he claims to be on the SD dev team, though I have yet to see anything he's actually done with it except add a bug.
Quote from Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:10 PM
Still reading the thing but I'd remove the code, just not to give him any ground.
That's my rewrite of his code. There is no chance it's going to cause issues. If anything I'd rather it stay because then people can ask what the original was and how much cruftier it is.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:16 PM
Honestly, had I not known you I would've thought you're making half of that stuff up :P.
Quote
3. Do you really need to dump every single one of your language strings into the page? In fact, you're going to have *so* much fun with that, because json_encode is not standard even in 5.2 (WordPress had to include compatiblity functions for it even when they went 5.3 only), and the best part, json_encode doesn't even work properly on non-UTF-8 strings. It's not a problem for English, of course, but anything else it will be.
How does wedge handle json + UTF-8? I didn't know this but I am using json_encode for some wedge stuff so I'm not sure now.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:19 PM
That's something that was mentioned between me and the SMF moderators when he removed the small post I made - if what I have to say is full of crap, he can refute it publicly. But if it's legit, then he can defend himself publicly, not through deleting my posts.

json_encode is absolutely fine on UTF-8, assuming it's available. It's only for non English ISO stuff that there's a problem, assuming it's available. There is a compat function kicking around for that use.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:22 PM
Ah, okay.
Posted: March 15th, 2013, 05:20 PM

He's selling it for 45$?!
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:32 PM
It's now $35 but yes, it certainly was $45.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:35 PM
It is listed as 45$ on smf-hacks.com
EDIT: Ah, it sells as 35$ on PayPal.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:38 PM
Yeah, he's now set it to $35 and vbgamer hasn't updated the page listing yet.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 15th, 2013, 05:41 PM
Okay, good luck to him I guess.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:42 PM
But even so... $35 for that? I think even $20 is a bit steep for it.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: tumbleweed on March 15th, 2013, 05:48 PM
I had been looking every now and then into the thread since FrizzleFried had deleted his response. Guess I missed your first one.
Going to hit the "notify" button. See what happens...
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: live627 on March 16th, 2013, 02:03 AM
He should cut the price to $10.

And why doesn't it work with other mods? I... that... wow. Seriously, wow.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 16th, 2013, 03:01 AM
Note I was quite specific about what doesn't work. There is detection code for SP, ezP and ADKP in there, though whether it works, I have no idea.

What is supposed to happen is that the mods add their buttons as normal, and then they become available in the add-button area, it doesn't look like they'll be added out of the box. But just for fun, you normally have to 'empty the cache' to make that work.

SD and Aeva specifically will be broken because while you can add buttons happily and tie them to membergroups etc. that's fine until there is *any other condition* that would cause them to be triggered. In the case of Aeva, for example, the child buttons only appear when there is something for them to show - there's no dropdown or anything for 'unseen' if there's nothing unseen.

But there's zero facility for that. You can add by membergroup or not at all, there's no way to check an arbitrary $context variable or anything else.

You know I said in my thoughts the other day about 'upping my game'? This was what it was about. I want to do a menu editor in the core at some point, but I don't even have to consciously make any special effort on it, doing what I normally do in terms of design and consequence will be enough! (Seriously, what I've been thinking about doing is having a menu editor and if a plugin wants to extend the menu area, it hooks into the menu *editor* not the menu directly, meaning that we can actually do caching properly etc. on the menu)
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 16th, 2013, 10:30 AM
Quote from Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:42 PM
But even so... $35 for that? I think even $20 is a bit steep for it.
I'm not really in a position to judge other people's prices but I wouldn't really mind the 35$ if the mod was coded properly and worked as advertised (which I can see it doesn't from your observations).
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on March 16th, 2013, 01:41 PM
Quote from Dragooon on March 16th, 2013, 10:30 AM
Quote from Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:42 PM
But even so... $35 for that? I think even $20 is a bit steep for it.
I'm not really in a position to judge other people's prices but I wouldn't really mind the 35$ if the mod was coded properly and worked as advertised (which I can see it doesn't from your observations).
Even then I would doubt it's worth $45, when basically the same can be done by hacking Subs.php for free. And I know it is for non-advanced users, but hacking Subs.php isn't difficult. I'd give it $20 at max.

Back to the original point, that is really really sloppy. He should've posted it in the team boards over at SMF to give it a review.
Not saying that we could filter all issues (my coding style is not perfect, it is far from perfect in some areas), but a big deal could be filtered out.

Three years for that little lines is a very long time. I believe my awfully coded FXTracker comes close, it was developed in about half a year.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 16th, 2013, 06:02 PM
For comparison, SimpleDesk ultimately took about 6 months of my time, over a 2 year period. In that time it racked up 22-odd thousand lines. While I'd be the first to admit that the number of lines is not an adequate metric of judging development, that's just shy of 5 lines per day.

Let me explain: what gets my goat about this part is how he's playing it up for the crowd. 3 years is a long time for anything - hell, I know that only too well with Wedge. But 3 years ago he didn't have even the basic skills to pull this off - 3 years ago (and I have documentary evidence, should I need to break it out), he couldn't even write DB queries or even understand how SMF did logic/presentation separation. At all. So in that 3 years, he's learnt how to write mods, including advanced ones. That's a far cry from 'starting development 3 years ago', since that kind of implies he was able to write the code off the bat back then, even a modest amount of it, which he wasn't. Most of that 3 years would have been spent learning the necessary skills.

The thing is, I pretty much guessed ahead of time how this was going to turn out, speculating that it was going to have same mentality as produced Menu Editor Lite, the same narrow-minded, conservative but arrogant logic.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 16th, 2013, 06:37 PM
I'm fairly sure I made the first version of SMG within 5 months and that was 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: live627 on March 16th, 2013, 10:17 PM
Quote from Dragooon on March 16th, 2013, 06:37 PM
I'm fairly sure I made the first version of SMG within 5 months and that was 5 years ago.
impressive! I didn't start coding until I was 13, and even then, I just dabbled with some VB. Yes, 3.0. I didn't get into web development until 17.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 16th, 2013, 11:21 PM
Late bloomer? ;) Actually VB is not a bad language to get into to start with, and at least it has some ideas about type safety, PHP's 'just keep on truckin'' approach is actually not clever for beginners - as I found with C#, having to conform to structure is actually a better way of getting to understand a language than it is for scripts to work but with inconsistent and unpredictable results because of some hidden safety net.

Also, review posted with some follow up comments based on this thread. I do not expect this to end well.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 17th, 2013, 02:17 AM
Also, I see vbgamer has read this thread. Well, maybe he's read the title. He clearly hasn't actually read the thread, because if he had, he would understand what I've been trying to say for years. But like everything else he's so far up his own arse, he can't see the truth for all the shit.

I think this has made my peace with them, though.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Kindred on March 17th, 2013, 03:03 AM
Actually, VBgamer has been a lot more laid back lately... He's made apologies to a lot of people (I think he did so for you and Nao as well Arantor, didn't he?). :)

As for the menu mod. Thanks for the review.
I m managing two sites now where the actual admins are clueless when it comes to coding and I was considering buying the mod to simplify MY life (and allow the admins to mess with the menu)

However, based on your review, I don't think I'll bother.

I think I'll just have to write my own with a moderately quick.dirty interface....
I mean, it;s not that hard...   
rename  the subs.php array - so the system stops using it
(hmmm.... can I stop the system from displaying the menu array and replace it using hooks?)
read the array and compare it against the database
add anything that doesn't already exist to the database list..
then read out the database list into the originally named menu array.

interface... fields for
Set menu order
set menu title
set menu link
open as new tab or same tab
icon for menu item
sub-menu?
conditionals for appearance


did I miss anything








As for your comments on SMF... I definitely agree that SMF devs need to be held to the HIGHEST standard for coding mods (and for coding SMF itself)

I didn't see your comment on SMF...   and, if it was reported, the modertion was closed before I got to looking.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: live627 on March 17th, 2013, 03:09 AM
You can view closed reports with some poking around in the mod center.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 17th, 2013, 03:13 AM
Quote
He's made apologies to a lot of people (I think he did so for you and Nao as well Arantor, didn't he?)
He made an apology to me. I never responded because to be honest... I wasn't sure whether it was sincere or just a token gesture to get me to shut up.
Quote
(hmmm.... can I stop the system from displaying the menu array and replace it using hooks?)
Sure you can. The entire menu is exposed to a hook in the bowels of Subs.php, you can just replace it entirely. Both Menu Editor Lite and Menu Editor Pro do just that - they just straight up replace the entire menu, though IIRC neither uses hooks.
Quote
interface... fields for
Set menu order
set menu title
set menu link
open as new tab or same tab
icon for menu item
sub-menu?
conditionals for appearance
That's pretty much it. I won't deny that MEP, basically, does this. I wouldn't say it does it well, but it does at least let you do most of this stuff. The interface is reasonable, if fluffed up with a lot of jQuery nonsense like (slow) animated stuff to show you that things have been updated (when the page load will tell you that anyway)

Actually, take a look at Kays' mod. It seems to cover the general stuff fairly well from what I've seen.
Quote
As for your comments on SMF... I definitely agree that SMF devs need to be held to the HIGHEST standard for coding mods (and for coding SMF itself)
And that's where we get the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. If he's an SMF dev and releasing paid stuff, the paid stuff is a fairly good barometer for what's going to get committed, quality-wise.
Quote
I didn't see your comment on SMF...   and, if it was reported, the modertion was closed before I got to looking.
The earlier comment, a couple of days ago, which summed up compatibility with Aeva as non-existent, was deleted by Lab himself that afternoon. No report, nothing. He just straight up deleted the post - because someone else saw it in the moderation log and approached me to ask whether it was done with my consent or not. (If I wanted the post gone, I would have likely deleted it myself.)

Mind you, given the vitriol displayed by other team members in the posts I have seen, it does make me wonder what I thought there was to save in the SMF project. If there is going to be closing-of-ranks like this when someone is being called out for incompetence - because let's face it, that is the real accusation I'm making - and no refutation has been given on actual technical grounds (as opposed to a straight up ad-hominem), there's nothing I can do to fix things.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Oracle on March 17th, 2013, 06:25 AM
This is where I'm coming from as a user, I've lost confidence not only in the SMF brand but where its headed.

The future of the project certainly doesn't look good from my standpoint. The lack of expertise is @ the centre of what's going on and the fact that nothing is being done to correct the situation is alarming.

Definitely a case of the blind leading the blind and it has to stop but unfortunately for SMF that doesn't appear to be possible. Those from outside who have vastly more experience are aware of what's required, have in this case attempted to highlight the MAIN issue and instead of the SMF team who are pleading ignorance taking criticsms on board and acting on them they employ the head in the sand approach to their own detriment. Instead of closing ranks on Arantor they should be heralding his foresight not pushing him away as they have done. And for what reason,,,he's more vocal than the rest of the squad...That in my eyes is a poor excuse. That's the message I'm getting is pure and simple, the majority of individuals contemplating SMF as an alternative to other forum software will think twice before coupling with SMF.

The situation that has evolved within SMF is not only damaging to SMFs brand but is a major deterrent to their very future.

There's only one answer to all this squabbling and that's GET WITH THE STRENGTH > GO WEDGE NOT SMF. Which is exactly what I will be doing.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: live627 on March 17th, 2013, 07:11 AM
Well said!
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 17th, 2013, 07:58 AM
Quote from Arantor on March 17th, 2013, 02:17 AM
Also, I see vbgamer has read this thread. Well, maybe he's read the title. He clearly hasn't actually read the thread, because if he had, he would understand what I've been trying to say for years. But like everything else he's so far up his own arse, he can't see the truth for all the shit.

I think this has made my peace with them, though.
Labradoodle read this thread :P.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on March 17th, 2013, 10:44 AM
Sorry for not staying on topic, but I just have to comment on two replies :P
Quote from Arantor on March 16th, 2013, 11:21 PM
Late bloomer? ;) Actually VB is not a bad language to get into to start with, and at least it has some ideas about type safety, PHP's 'just keep on truckin'' approach is actually not clever for beginners - as I found with C#, having to conform to structure is actually a better way of getting to understand a language than it is for scripts to work but with inconsistent and unpredictable results because of some hidden safety net.

Also, review posted with some follow up comments based on this thread. I do not expect this to end well.
C# is one of the most fun languages I've met, php comes first. Even though C# is a bit tough in the beginning I picked it up fairly quick.
Quote from live627 on March 16th, 2013, 10:17 PM
Quote from Dragooon on March 16th, 2013, 06:37 PM
I'm fairly sure I made the first version of SMG within 5 months and that was 5 years ago.
impressive! I didn't start coding until I was 13, and even then, I just dabbled with some VB. Yes, 3.0. I didn't get into web development until 17.
Looks like we have something in common :P
I started 'coding' (not sure it can be called that) when I was 11 I believe, creating scripts for the Windows CMD prompt. Then I started with VB, dunno which version. Got sunk into web development when I was 12 I believe.

Anyways, yeah I got Lab to read this thread and man he's pissed at me lol.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: emanuele on March 17th, 2013, 12:02 PM
/meis the one that started later in development: ~14 QBasic, ~18 VB6 [1] (and later some .NET) and ~27 PHP...
@Kindred: not sure if your comment was serious or not, though, why re-invent the wheel again and again and again? There is Lab's free version of the mod (under MPL, so anyone could take it, improve the code (change the name) and re-distribute the mod), there is Kays's version that is BSD.
Use one of those and if you have improvements put them somewhere so that people can grab them. ;)
 1. with in-between excel-formulas, yeah, I played with some nasty array of formulas to do not-so-basic things in the laboratory :P
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Kindred on March 17th, 2013, 02:26 PM
It wasn't meant as tongue in cheek...    I wasn't aware of Kays version...


There were a bunch of issues with Lab's free version that he passed off by saying "they are all fixed in the pro version" (so I don't want to use that as a starting point.

(and yes, if I do make my own or make improvements, I would always share them. I am not in favor of making paid mods)


that being said: Please note: Only one team member "closed ranks" with Lab that I could see. (Colin)
Runic and CoreISP seem to have stated the case very clearly without attacking either Labradoodle or Arantor
everyone else is pretty much staying out of it.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on March 17th, 2013, 02:59 PM
Does my post have an Android icon because I posted it from my phone? That's cool.

Anyway, I'd grab Kays' mod anytime. If there is an issue with a mod, the author should fix it and shouldn't say "Oh but that's fixed in the paid version, gimme $45 and those issues'll be gone."
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Dragooon on March 17th, 2013, 03:01 PM
Quote from Yoshi2889 on March 17th, 2013, 02:59 PM
Does my post have an Android icon because I posted it from my phone? That's cool.
Yeah
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 17th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Only one team member *publicly* closed ranks with Lab. Publicly is not the only place that closing of ranks occurred. And like it or not, vbgamer is seen by many as a pillar of the community - so right now it looks to any outsider as I'm just a troublemaker.

I'm just going to quote something from what I said to Runic last night.
Quote
Colin is convinced I made an attack, but the thing is that if that's all he sees, then nothing else really matters. You have to see it for what it is and he can't. And that says to me that others can't either.

Still, I might just prove vbgamer right, just for once, but not because he's actually right. He, and others, are convinced I want SMF dead. So, here's the deal, I'm not going to say anything over there. The project can do as it pleases, without anything I have to say. I will just put *all* of my time and energy into Wedge rather than a 50/50 split.

The sad truth is that SMF just cannot keep up with what development Nao and I can do when sufficiently motivated - and all this incident has done is motivate me to get Wedge so far ahead of SMF that it cannot ever catch up - and you KNOW I can do that.
Quote from Dragooon on March 17th, 2013, 03:01 PM
Quote from Yoshi2889 on March 17th, 2013, 02:59 PM
Does my post have an Android icon because I posted it from my phone? That's cool.
Yeah
There are icons for iPod/iPhone, iPad, Android and I did suggest a 3DS icon. I think there's also some rule for the generic phone one, still.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Kindred on March 17th, 2013, 03:40 PM
well, Arantor...  do what you must/will... 

However, public comments are the only place I have seen any discussion on this... There is no discussions (that I am aware of_ on the team boards - so that thread (which I was not even really paying attention to until it got flagged) and this one is the only place I have seen any comments for or against your comments.  So Colin, Lab and VBgamer felt that your comments were an attack...  I don't think that anyone else did - and the PM and Server Admin for SMF both came out and said that.

You have to admit - you are a troublemaker (and you enjoy the role! :P)  -- Which is not to say you did anything wrong, mind you... I think that you comments were objectively presented and should have been taken as such. But you have to admit that you KNEW exactly what the reaction was going to be when you posted it. :P
(please note the smileys above, this is not an attack or even a criticism, just a comment in my usual blunt and/or sarcastic tone)
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 17th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote
well, Arantor...  do what you must/will...
That is exactly what I'm doing. I'm at the point where I believe SMF cannot be fixed and the kindest thing would be a mercy killing.
Quote
However, public comments are the only place I have seen any discussion on this...
My email, my FB inbox and my inbox here would disagree. ;)
Quote
You have to admit - you are a troublemaker (and you enjoy the role! :P)  -- Which is not to say you did anything wrong, mind you... I think that you comments were objectively presented and should have been taken as such. But you have to admit that you KNEW exactly what the reaction was going to be when you posted it. :P
(please note the smileys above, this is not an attack or even a criticism, just a comment in my usual blunt and/or sarcastic tone)
Troublemaking is a matter of perspective. I don't see it as causing trouble, I see it as raising legitimate issues. You have a developer with questionable ethics and poor developmental judgement.

I knew the reaction would be negative, but not nearly as negative as some of the comments I made, and I didn't entirely expect other team members to jump in and defend him with poorly executed ad-hominem attacks. If you can't refute the *substance* of the argument, you have no business arguing it.

But what does that say about a mod author who can't deal with such critique, when it's a paid work? Remember: I paid for the right to pass judgement. I'm a paying customer, I'm entitled to speak my mind on it.

What's done is done. It's where we go from here and in so doing I'm leaving you guys alone to figure out what you're going to do about it. Maybe you will figure out a way to SMF, maybe you won't. But either way it's not my problem any more.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Yoshi2889 on March 17th, 2013, 04:27 PM
Yeah, he can't deal with the critique *at all*. When I poked him about your post on here (sorry if he wasn't supposed to know, but it's in the public area after all), he opened the fire on me. "You're a fucking idiot", "You're joining Arantor in his shit", "His crap is all nit picky shit that doesn't matter" and all that (he literally said those things). I'm done with him, really, and I'm not going to hide what I think of him.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: emanuele on March 17th, 2013, 05:25 PM
Quote from Kindred on March 17th, 2013, 02:26 PM
There were a bunch of issues with Lab's free version that he passed off by saying "they are all fixed in the pro version" (so I don't want to use that as a starting point.
But that's the funny part: the mod is there with an open source license (I mean the "lite"), so it can be fixed and redistributed by anyone interested, no need to wait for the paid version. ;)
Quote from Kindred on March 17th, 2013, 02:26 PM
(and yes, if I do make my own or make improvements, I would always share them. I am not in favor of making paid mods)
I'm not against. :P (though I almost never did any, just one or two and I still feel a bit guilty because I think I took too much money...meh, from time to time I feel I'm dumb... lol)
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: runic on March 17th, 2013, 05:34 PM
live, and Oracle thanks for the vote of confidence. ::)

As I said in the topic Arantor provided quite a good response even provided Idea's where Lab could improve, Colin took what was said as an attack and vbgamer jumped on the bandwagon, it must have hurt vbgamer to say the nice things about Pete and the later comments were quite positive for vbgamer.   Also so its known out of the list that vbgamer posted as people he knows hates him, he has only approached 2 of the people, Bigguy and Arantor, so I dont think he is all the sincere but this is not the point, I tried to stay neutral.  I think Arantor could have been more tactile but then it wouldnt be the guy we all love if he did that :)
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Oracle on March 18th, 2013, 01:39 AM
Nothing personal, merely telling it from my perspective.

There IS a problem. The fact that you guys don't acknowledge one exists and persist in carrying on with your business as usual approach with NO intent given toward improvement of your operation adds to that.

Champion' s in any arena have the ability to take on board criticisms, work on them with the sole intent of transforming weaknesses into strengths. This is the same principle employed in the corporate world under the guise of Customer Service. Feedback, is a very important ingredient or tool as it were to management that enables any corporate entity to shape their future in accordance with public opinion. It ensures currency of design and is viewed as a means to an end. One that targets popularity and tailors a product that everyone is able to embrace not just the select few. The sad fact is that those who ignore "What Is" eventually fall behind or @ the very least pale to insignificance.

Refusal to acknowledge reality when it is presented in the manner that this subject was, DOES reverberate through the community. SMF sadly is failing to live up to its former glory when infact it should be endeavouring to surpass it. If it means a changing of the guard then so be it. CEOs in any institution are handsomely rewarded for their foresight and are ruthlessly rejected when they fail to live up to expectation. I see no difference in the principle that should be applied in this predicament!

Atone or suffer the consequence. Simple >...Machines....Its all in there!
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Shawn on March 18th, 2013, 03:29 PM
Quote from Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:38 PM
Yeah, he's now set it to $35 and vbgamer hasn't updated the page listing yet.
He lowered the price because everyone complained. I won't be purchasing it myself because for what little feature is does, the cost isn't worth it. IMO. But Lab is a good kid and generally means to be a good kid (kid as in he is under 18). I think he is serious but still quite young with much to learn.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Kindred on March 18th, 2013, 08:46 PM
rotflmao...

it's really funny that you compare SMF to for-profit/corporations, since that is supposedly what drove Norv away.

However, this issue here with Lab's mod and the response to Arantor's analysis is not actually an SMF problem. It is a problem with a specific individual and his reaction to criticism. This is unrelated to any larger issues at or with SMF.

As for issues at SMF....
oracle - we all know that there is a problem - Arantor and some others have made statements about what they think the problem is. Some of them (not Arantor) have even made demands as to what they feel we MUST do. The fact is that some of the rest of us disagree about the specifics of the problem (not that there is a problem, but we disagree on the factors and potential resolution).



As for your comment about mailboxes, Arantor...    (as I said: ..."public comments are the only place ***I*** have seen any discussion on this...." I can only react to what was done publicly. I have no idea which other team members may have jumped on your for your comments... but I thought they were fairly presented, myself. Then again, I'm the same, blunt, sort of guy.

Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Oracle on March 18th, 2013, 10:07 PM
Hi Kindred,

Nice to see I'm able to provide a dose of amusement.

Hmmm... "unrelated to any larger issues at or with SMF."

I draw you to your remark..."not that there is a problem, but we disagree on the factors and potential resolution."

Fact is ....SMF > IS in a state of paralysis is it not?

That my dear fellow is NOT a laughing matter and it does go back to what I just highlighted about taking on board any criticism / feedback and addressing issues whether the team is in agreement or not.

The way to resolution is through ACTION! > If that's not forthcoming then I suppose we should all line up to put head in sand.

This is exactly what it looks like to people on the outside looking in and why key developers within the organisation have left!



Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 18th, 2013, 10:46 PM
Quote
This is unrelated to any larger issues at or with SMF.
Ah, but it is. This is something that appears to have been largely unnoticed in the comments, despite my spelling it out rather clearly.

Your project revolves around development of a piece of software. I know there is a strange culture attached to that idea, but hear me out. You have a project around a piece of software. And THIS is a person you are giving the keys to the kingdom to. Are you seriously telling me you do not see why this is a problem?

For those playing along at home, let me explain why this is a problem.

1) Technical competence. The mod proves, as if there were any real doubt, that Lab is not - in my opinion - up to that responsibility.

2) Inability to handle criticism. The same argument could be levelled at me, but if you notice, someone deconstructing my work on a technical basis doesn't yield emotional responses. Personal attacks will. Ad-hominems presented as 'legitimate criticism' will. People going around and telling me that I'm wasting my time because I should be doing something better will too.[1] A developer who cannot handle legitimate criticism of what they have written is a poor developer.

3) Questionable ethics. Selling paid plugins is always an interesting question. What it means is that you have to bring your A game to the party. If your A game is up to scratch, it's all fair in love and war. Your paid work will be representative of your better, if not your best, work.

This raises several issues. Firstly, not even running his own paid mod site. It's not difficult to run such a site, and takes a competent developer a couple of days at most to get something set up. The fact he isn't even running his own mod site out of the box is a fairly worrying item anyway, just as much as I took vbgamer to task for not using his own storefront or downloads systems on his own site. Just as, while I'm being fair to everyone, Nibogo wasn't using his own gallery for serving gallery images - I haven't checked to see if he is now using his own but even after he brought his own out, he was still using Aeva.

So a mod developer that isn't running his own site - especially for something he'd already put '3 years' into - should be a huge warning sign.

More importantly, his work should be up to the standard of the SMF trunk that he is supposed to be committing to. If his commits there are up to scratch, why is sub-par work being put into a paid mod? Conversely, if his commits are only up to the standard of his paid work, why is he still a developer?

Even more importantly, how did no-one on the team realise his status essentially as 'liability' before he got into the position of being a developer?
Quote
it's really funny that you compare SMF to for-profit/corporations, since that is supposedly what drove Norv away.
-sigh- The fact you still fail to understand the point of what Norv has been saying is not even funny any more, it's just sad.

In almost any other open source project, and doubly so for corporations, is that you have people contributing to the cause. If they're not contributing to the cause and driving it forwards, they are dead weight. Corporations have a concept of revenue-per-staff member. If you have too many people not generating forward progress (or, for businesses, profit), they are a hindrance and should be removed. Now, before the argument of 'but how does <insert department> remain in the company' comes in, there will always be a need for a set of support services. But they are to *support* the business.

Why is SM NPO any different?

It is a project designed to support the development of a free and open source forum system, yes?

Support means to provide the environment, tools and facilities required to make it work - just as IT provides the machines, Facilities provides the desks and power, HR orchestrates people. These groups do not dictate the direction the business takes - the people running the show and generating growth do that.
 1. Because it's calling my judgement into question, and if you don't trust my judgement, why are you hassling me?
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Kindred on March 19th, 2013, 04:46 AM
Hmmm...   Its a stretch, comparing his mod to SMF...   Mostly because the mod had no oversight, SMF does.
However, you d have some points...


As for Norv...  You have it wrong, I understand everything that she has said. I just disagree with just about everything.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Arantor on March 19th, 2013, 04:49 AM
Human is as human does. It is a stretch to compare the mod to SMF, sure. But people don't suddenly change.
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As for Norv...  You have it wrong, I understand everything that she has said. I just disagree with just about everything.
Interesting. Very interesting. It's also one of the many problems SMF has. And one of those not shared by any active open source project I know. Funny, that.
Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: nend on March 29th, 2013, 05:31 PM
SMF development shouldn't be too hard. Deny all feature request because users supposedly wouldn't understand them or use them. After that fix a few security bugs in the previous version and slap a new version number on it.

I know there is more into it but just seems like no one on the team wants to step up their game. Maybe in fear of the other team.

Even without SMF core the platform is still capable of more.

What is really lacking IMHO even in ports is the ability for structural diversity. I guess I can go on about the lack of modern features but I will not.

I have been thinking about donating code though but when I find the time. I was thinking maybe all the source code changes @ Wrestle Topia may be beneficial to someone.

Title: Re: Fuck the SMF project. Fuck it up its stupid ass.
Post by: Nao on November 11th, 2013, 01:06 PM
Sometimes I'll open a random topic that I never actually had time to read at all. And it'll be fun.
This one had an appealing title, so I thought, why not. Get the pop-corn out.
And I wasn't disappointed, lol. Arantor giving the middle finger to SMF and then 6 months later joining them and publicly acting as if he'd never been an opponent of their politics... (And implying that I was the one who had problems with the SMF team. Yeah, sure! I never even read that topic before! :lol:)
Quote from Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:00 PM
He made 5,000 lines of mod to make a nice interface around editing that array. Including such gems as a 50 line easter egg loaded every page, and his own file caching system that insists on pretty-printing everything, including comments, to a file, as opposed to, say, using serialize.
Or as opposed to, say, moving an array to the database, and then never writing any kind of interface to allow editing it.
At least he tried, didn't he.

Better try and fail, than never to have tried.
Quote from Arantor on March 15th, 2013, 05:00 PM
And remember, this is being written by a core SMF developer as a paid mod. You see now why it bothers me so much?
Given your high respect for the SMF development team and its low level of entry, it's even more amusing that you didn't hesitate for a split second to join them.
Quote from emanuele on March 17th, 2013, 12:02 PM
/meis the one that started later in development: ~14 QBasic, ~18 VB6 [1] (and later some .NET) and ~27 PHP...
 1. with in-between excel-formulas, yeah, I played with some nasty array of formulas to do not-so-basic things in the laboratory :P
It all depends on your age. :P
I'm 38, so I've had time to 'be young' or 'be old' for things...
I started Basic at 11, assembler at 15, Pascal and HTML at 21, first contact with PHP at 28 (like, 'get the hell out of here!'), first PHP hacks at 30, first real PHP code at 32, first SMF contribution at 33, first mod at 34, first fork at 35, first post on this topic at 38. There's always a time for everything! :P
Quote from emanuele on March 17th, 2013, 12:02 PM
@Kindred: not sure if your comment was serious or not, though, why re-invent the wheel again and again and again? There is Lab's free version of the mod (under MPL, so anyone could take it, improve the code (change the name) and re-distribute the mod), there is Kays's version that is BSD.
Use one of those and if you have improvements put them somewhere so that people can grab them. ;)
In terms of reinventing the wheel, it pains me each time I see 'similar' features that are implemented between Elk and SMF and Wedge. That's the price to pay for freedom of structural changes in one's fork, I guess: you can't just take code 'as it is'. Sometimes you can't even port it (e.g. taking things from Wedge and adapting it to Elk or SMF). I for one would love to see all of the 'nice' SMF developers work together on the same stuff, but it's pretty much impossible. Even these last couple of days, I saw you get upset with another developer I like. It is disappointing that human relationships aren't always as easy as "we like this codebase, we both know it, let's work on it together!"... But, well... See how Arantor left Wedge and now has completely forgotten about everything he seemed to hold so dear. You think you 'get' someone, but you have no idea. The only person you can 'get' is the one inside you. As for the others, you can only hope to simply have good relationships with them, but don't expect anything of them.

Meh, I started this post with an uplift mood, and now it all sounds so gloomy... :geek: :ph34r:
Title: Re: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
I guess I can air what I think?

Arantor is a great programmer, though I find him to really hypocritical as a person with the recent events.  I had to laugh when remembering this thread after hearing the news that he came back to SMF.  Though, whatever, anything to make him happy?  I have to be honest, I felt like I was walking on eggshells when he was around here.  I felt as if I asked a question or offered an idea that he would pound me into the ground, mostly due to the fact that I am nowhere near his repertoire of programming.  I learn along the way to benefit myself and my sites; confronting problems takes me to task but I always learn something new about php, css, html, ect along the way.

Yes, I did offer 100 dollars to the Wedge project instead of throwing it at a forum license for v.bulletin.  Wedge fits the structure I want for my websites perfectly (especially with the unique privacy features, something my main forum really works upon), and I plan on using it in lieu of WordPress.  Yet even after saying all of that, I feel really bad.  I feel like I am leeching off of Nao's (and in essence Arantor's) hard work, hard work they pretty much did for free.  100 bucks is a drop in the bucket considering how many years was put into wedge.  Wedge is priceless and I am hopeless as to how to give back efficiently.
Title: Re: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Nao on November 11th, 2013, 11:48 PM
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
I guess I can air what I think?
Yes.
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
Arantor is a great programmer, though I find him to really hypocritical as a person with the recent events.
He's... Complex. Even in the days of Wedge, I didn't understand him for all he did.
I mean, these days, I'm starting to wonder if his goal with his work on Wedge was the same as mine -- making the best forum software we could think of, something we'd want to use ourselves, something without the dead weight of the many mods and themes in SMF that always need to be catered for, something without the 'mass' of users in mind, targeted to people who're willing to get to work to have the best software around, and who don't care whether the software they use has a large user base, recognition or mod/theme library. It's now looking like his goal was simply to make a prototype of SMF 3.0... Because it's certainly what he's working on, these days. Taking his 'best' of Wedge and putting it into SMF.

Of course, there are implications to this line of work, that make me chuckle. I won't elaborate, though.

Arantor is what he is. He posted tens of thousands of messages on sm.org, which to me always sounded like "okay, I hate the SMF team, but I can't stop myself from posting all day long, so I have to have somewhere to post all my knowledge."
It made it pretty much impossible to follow him on the myriads of forums he was registered on.
So, he would start discussing things that I had no idea what they were about, and I would just let it slide. Things like this post here... Seriously, why did he care about an incompetent developer at the SMF team..? I mean, he WASN'T going to be using SMF any time soon, was he...? Turned out he had so much pride in Wedge, he used SMF to build his latest website. To me, that felt like a public renouncement. It was only confimed when he came back from his trip.
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
I had to laugh when remembering this thread after hearing the news that he came back to SMF.  Though, whatever, anything to make him happy?  I have to be honest, I felt like I was walking on eggshells when he was around here.
I think we all did. Including me. I'd already, ahem, 'experienced' the difficulties of trying to be frank with him. I learned my lesson, and progressively stopped sharing my thoughts on what he made in Wedge that I didn't like. I'm somehow glad I know I can remove them now, but I also realize it would take time to revert some of his 'innovations', and I'd rather spend my time finishing up a usable beta.

He was just hard to work with. He had an answer for everything, and he gave them with so much aplomb that you just couldn't discuss them with him. Where I would post poll asking people where they think I had a good idea here or there, he just didn't bother -- his ideas were for the best, after all. Well, a majority of them were, but when you start fearing that he'll snap if you question one of his future implementations (or, worse, that he'll start arguing over it in novella-sized posts that no one can bother to read, let alone reply to), something's really wrong.

I for one, seriously hope that people will keep telling me what I'm doing wrong. Wrong direction? It's all right, I'd rather know when I just got started on something, rather than at the end when someone dares to speak. Perhaps I'm more understanding of 'newbies', simply because I'm a strong believer in the fact that "you're always someone else's dummy". In whatever field you feel you excel at, there's always going to be someone who knows better than you. I realize that (I even realize that person is often Arantor!), but if I keep thinking, "I'm not the right person for the job", then I'll never do anything. My Mahjongg Solitaire game sucked when I started it, which is why I released it for free, which is why it got popular, which is why I kept working on it, and years later made it into something that still to this day tell me is a masterpiece. I still think it was a piece of crap, but you have to draw a line: yes, someone else could have done a better job at writing Kyodai Mahjongg, but he probably wouldn't have bothered to work on it for 9 years, like I did.
When you have the guts and the will to do it, and to finish it, then you can do it. Doesn't matter if you have to restart from scratch several times. It will take what it takes to do it.

TL:DR. Yes, he's hard to see through, and whenever you start talking with him, you can't help but feel frightened that he'll end up shunning you. Most of the times it would end happily and he'd be cordial and nice, but do one single mistake, or insist a bit too much for his taste, and he'll crush you. And now where he is, I won't be there to possibly help smooth things between him and other people.
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
Yes, I did offer 100 dollars to the Wedge project instead of throwing it at a forum license for v.bulletin.  Wedge fits the structure I want for my websites perfectly (especially with the unique privacy features, something my main forum really works upon),
Yeah, it still needs work, but it's something that'll end up as one of Wedge's finest features.
I mean, some of my ideas aren't implemented yet, but... You'll see! Once I'm done with the contact list system, I'll devote myself to privacy settings, and the bulk of the work is done, so you'll see.

Interestingly, I caught a topic(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=506161.msg3622811#msg3622811) where a certain Arantor told someone that "SMF will never (stoop so low as to...) implement privacy features, because it's not what a forum is for." Aside from the fact that that particular topic shows his 'style' (half arrogant, half trustable), as well as his 'badge' thing (yes, we know you're proud to be at SMF, even though you said the exact opposite in this very topic), he also mentions the disastrous impact on privacy... Which, as championed recently by Pandos, is not exactly THAT big a deal.[1] So... Yeah, whatever.
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
and I plan on using it in lieu of WordPress.  Yet even after saying all of that, I feel really bad.  I feel like I am leeching off of Nao's (and in essence Arantor's) hard work, hard work they pretty much did for free.
Well, we did sign up knowingly, you see... We just didn't expect to have more than six months of work ahead of us, which was manageable. My plans were to simply import my SMF->Noisen.com patch to Wedge (around 900KB of code which I progressively reduced to 400KB through implementations and deletions, before I finally gave up and figured the rest would best be rewritten), and his plans, err... He had more ambition than I did, which is the reason why we postponed every six months, and consequently why I started implementing other things 'because we had time'...

Now that I'm alone on the project (as the decision maker, I mean), I certainly can decide when I'm going to feature-freeze the entire thing. Not right now, but it's getting close. Hopefully, next month I'll have some releasable beta. And if any of Arantor's code is in an "unreleasable state", then we'll just work on it. At worst, I'll simply remove said code.[2]
Quote from Sara on November 11th, 2013, 09:28 PM
100 bucks is a drop in the bucket considering how many years was put into wedge.  Wedge is priceless and I am hopeless as to how to give back efficiently.
Well, if I ever was going to have people pay for Wedge, it would be for an inexpensive price, less than $50. Probably around $30. I wouldn't expect to sell more than a few hundred copies (at best!!), so it wouldn't even pay for a month's worth of work on my current 'rate', so... I don't know why I should bother. If I could make it work as a sustainable revenue maker, then I certainly could envision working on Wedge for years and years to come. But alas, I'm no marketing guy, and I have no plans to turn Wedge into a marketing machine. As I said before, I'm only targeting people who know a bit of PHP and are willing to do what needs to be done for Wedge to work well on their setup. It'll mean less support questions for me, and happier power users.

PS: oops, I just realized it's an Arantor-length post. Sorry about that! I could probably shorten it by half, but I'm not sure it's worth it.
 1. Actually, to be fair, Pete did tell me in private that he agreed to a suggestion of mine that we could simply disregard topic privacy at query time, and just hide unreachable topics at display time, to save processing time at the cost of getting empty pages if you stumble upon a series of hidden topics. I'm not going to do it this way, though; I'll only do it if privacy can provably be shown as having a real impact on overall forum performance.
 2. It'd be interesting to see which Wedge would be best: a Wedge without my code, or a Wedge without his. They would still both be very good, I have to say!
Title: Re: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Nao on November 12th, 2013, 12:01 AM
And because I'm a fair person, I just found a good example of a topic(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=511912.0) where I understand Pete's crude behavior:
- User posts in the wrong place, doesn't understand the answers, isn't generally very helpful...
- Arantor posts a piece of code that should help him (I'd have done pretty much the same),
- And no replies, of course. Presumably, guy tested it, it worked, then he left on another topic to ask for something else. (At this point, I don't know if Pete had moved onto another topic as well, or just didn't care that the guy would reply or not.)

That's certainly one of the reasons I've never been interested in getting Wedge to be more popular than SMF. I don't want this kind of user. Or, okay, I'm willing to have this kind of user, but only if they pay me for my time.
Title: Re: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Sara on November 12th, 2013, 12:20 AM
No worries, Nao.  I happen to like reading online novellas in forum replies. :P

All I can do is pretty much keep an open ear to what you have shared with us (as just above).  It's very interesting (dare say it, juicy :D) to hear what has been going on behind closed doors. 

Speaking of closed doors, I want to praise you again for the privacy features.  I am again laughing at what Arantor mentioned:
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"SMF will never (stoop so low as to...) implement privacy features, because it's not what a forum is for."
I've had to use cake[1] tiers after tiers of membergroups to create gates for potential members to pass through so they can become official members for my (crumbling) SMF install.  With this new feature on Wedge where one can choose the privacy of every single thread they make is a time saver and is more efficient.  It puts privacy back into the control of the members on what they want to share with the world or with their own circle of friends or the forum at large. 

Even if it was SMF's intention to not input privacy features, someone out there (Me) is going to use the existing features to implement an ivory tower.
Quote
Well, if I ever was going to have people pay for Wedge, it would be for an inexpensive price, less than $50. Probably around $30.
30 dollars, 50 dollars, 100 dollars[2] I would gladly pay it, and I would hope you get some sort of monetary benefit from your hard work.

Also, finding out that Arantor wanted to keep the project under wraps really upsets me.  I am so happy that you're on the road to release.  Even that you're sharing it with the world makes me very grateful.
Quote
And because I'm a fair person, I just found a good example of a topic where I understand Pete's crude behavior:
Yeah, can I be rude for one second?  I hope that person steps on a lego while barefoot. :D
 1. Mmmn, delicious cake...
 2. One-time fee, right? :eheh:
Title: Re: F**k the SMF project. F**k it up its stupid a**. <-- says Arantor ;)
Post by: Pandos on November 12th, 2013, 12:25 AM
Quote from Sara on November 12th, 2013, 12:20 AM
Yeah, can I be rude for one second?  I hope that person steps on a lego while barefoot. :D
You're really evil  :cool: