Wedge

Public area => Off-topic => The Pub => Other software => Topic started by: Nao on May 28th, 2011, 05:20 PM

Title: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Nao on May 28th, 2011, 05:20 PM

@billy> I read all posts. I don't have something to answer to all of them, though!

Quote from live627 on May 28th, 2011, 10:38 AM

It''s allowed here but condoned over at sm.org because they apparently don't allow links to competitors.

As said before, they allow links and topics about competitors... Just not about *US* in particular.
I'm somehow hoping that enough people will start mentioning Wedge over there that they'll have to give up on the idea of censoring us, our signatures, etc. But OTOH I don't like marketing and stuff. So I'm kinda stuck in between two annoying places in that respect...

Quote from kabo0m on May 28th, 2011, 08:44 AM

I like to keep quiet and just read but I heard about Wedge from a few people I keep connected with because they are smart and informed and teach me a lot about keeping my forum safe.

These are good people. 8-)

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I am so glad that someone is finally doing what I have been wishing someone would do for awhile! Thank you and I can't wait :)

'Someone' was bound to do something... With a codebase such as SMF, many, many talented developers were extremely frustrated to see that it was being maintained by a tank full of manatees picking up hack balls and hoping they'd form a bug fix together. © Trey Parker/Matt Stone.
That codebase is a lot of WASTED potential, if you ask me. We had to take over and put it straight.

See, even when we're in a slow activity period, I still manage to commit more work than their entire dev team together on their best days. That says a lot about their internal team issues.

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By the way, I see some of you have wedge in your signature. Can anyone have that?

The official policy is "do whatever you want", but my own personal policy, for the record, is "please use logos and links as much as you'd like outside Wedge.org, but if you're registered here, there's a chance you're interested in our work so I'd rather we keep the logo to Pete and I's signatures..." Of course this'll never happen so, ah well.
But really, I don't see much of a point in advertising Wedge *on Wedge.org* ;)

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: snoopy-virtual on May 28th, 2011, 08:47 PM

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But really, I don't see much of a point in advertising Wedge *on Wedge.org*

Me neither. If you are reading this forum you already know about it. LOL

Actually I think this is the only forum where I haven't got "Wedge" in my sig (apart from sm.org of course, where I had but they kindly asked me to delete it).  :eheh:

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: live627 on May 29th, 2011, 01:02 AM

Kind? They were KIND!? The world's ending! An airplane is coming at me!

Well, when Oldies asked me to remove the link/logo, after I replied with questioning about someone else's sig, he went so far as to threaten to do it himself if I didn't comply. That sounds very familiar.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: KaBo0M! on May 29th, 2011, 01:05 AM

Quote from snoopy-virtual on May 28th, 2011, 08:47 PM

Actually I think this is the only forum where I haven't got "Wedge" in my sig (apart from sm.org of course, where I had but they kindly asked me to delete it).  :eheh:

I am seeing it on a few forums now which is good  :cool:

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 29th, 2011, 01:05 AM

Quote from live627 on May 29th, 2011, 01:02 AM

Kind? They were KIND!? The world's ending! An airplane is coming at me!

Well, when Oldies asked me to remove the link/logo, after I replied with questioning about someone else's sig, he went so far as to threaten to do it himself if I didn't comply. That sounds very familiar.

Oldies is Kinded in disguise. :p

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 01:58 AM

To be fair, Oldiesmann did ask politely when he asked me first. I complied, politely, but firmly stating that I wasn't happy.

Oldiesmann isn't Kindred in disguise, Kindred is more vocal on the forums, even if they seem to be saying the same thing a little too often.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Nao on May 29th, 2011, 10:26 AM

Quote from live627 on May 29th, 2011, 01:02 AM

Kind? They were KIND!? The world's ending! An airplane is coming at me!

Well, when Oldies asked me to remove the link/logo, after I replied with questioning about someone else's sig, he went so far as to threaten to do it himself if I didn't comply. That sounds very familiar.

Nobody threatened me. They just removed my signature. Repeatedly. Until I got bored to change it. They never communicated with me, and since I can't communicate with them -- it's really not the kind of behavior you would expect from a bunch of ADULTS.
I mean, I spent the last 9 months working on Wedge. What have they been doing..? WAITING for some people to send signatures! "Oh, we can't do a darn thing before we get these signatures!"
Okay, so now the two missing signatures finally arrive. They go back to work. They fix a few bugs. They announce a release for this month. Then a week later, they stop fixing stuff and just go back to sleep.
They're supposed to release this week. They aren't doing a damn thing.

That's SMF for you. That's their fantastic developer team and great spirit overall.

Anyone who's in charge at sm.org is a cunt to me, unless they cancel my post-ban and restore my rights (badge, forum access, SVN access.)
That's not negotiable. Kicking out vbLamer out of their team is negotiable, but restoring my rights isn't.
And since the current team isn't gonna do any of this, let's be clear about them. In case I haven't been clear so far.

Just because they can put a *smile* on their face when they fuck with you doesn't mean they're not *fucking* with you. See?
So when I'm vocal about them -- I do it in public, so that they can come here and defend themselves if they want. Because I'm perfectly aware that they're not so kind about me in their private boards. Which I can't read. Pussies!

Well, guys? I'm not going to hide whatever you did to me! You ARE cunts, you should resign and apologize to the SMF community for fucking with their best members (not only Pete and I!), or at least condoning whoever did it in the past. By not doing this, and basically by not doing anything at all these last few years, you've been consistently trying to push SMF's level of quality further down into the ground.
Is it something that you should be proud of, really?
Is it something you want to put into your résumé?
"Decision-maker position at SimpleMachines, 20xx" (with xx between 2008 and 2011)
If someone in the know sees this, they'll think, "oh, you're one of the guys who fucked with Pete and Gilles? You're one of the guys responsible for the launch of Wedge? Gee, thanks, but I'd rather hire one of them for that position, not you!"

In all the time that you spent at the top, guys, you could have done something about us. Apologized. Restored. Pledged for quality. Kicked out the bastards. If this isn't done, it's because the bastards are in charge. And the bastards should be known for whatever they do, or precisely do not do.

Again.
That's SMF for you. That's their wonderful management and great spirit overall.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 10:46 AM

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They're supposed to release this week. They aren't doing a damn thing.

There is a little activity, nothing to write home about. I last sync'd at 10542 which was made 9 days ago. There have been 10 commits since then: 1 converter related, 4 relating to the copyright warning/checks/credits, 1 PostgreSQL fix (not even from the dev team), 1 security-related bug (and I'm not sure I entirely like their fix either), 1 search bug, and 2 layout related issues. (A commit per day from a group of 3 is not exactly busy.)

They are quite happy to defer even minor bugs to 2.1 however. I can't even begin to describe how fucking ridiculous this is.

(Remember I said that SimpleDesk would be done before them? It would had I actually stuck to feature lock instead of adding neat stuff that makes it more awesome. I will note that I won't add any new features other than what's on SD's tracker, but there are currently no known bugs, and that's a circumstance they can't match!)

I got nothing else to add to the above, it sums it up just right.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: billy2 on May 29th, 2011, 12:18 PM

Lex says "The fights and political drama within SMF are mostly done with"......... good lad  :eheh:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=435462.msg3055036#msg3055036

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 12:19 PM

Yes they have fixed very little in the last month and may as well have released it when they got the final signature.

And yes you are (esp. Nao) evidently still affected by SMF's treatment of you.

And I know you are doing this project for yourselves, and for your own motives.

However it would be sad if this were to become an anti-SMF sound-off forum, rather than pro-Wedge development space. We all have to live with SMF (the software) until Wedge is released and we can compare and choose. Then you can let your coding do the talking, and people will be more willing to listen if Wedge were something new and better rather than something negative.

I hope my honesty is not out of line.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 12:33 PM

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Yes they have fixed very little in the last month and may as well have released it when they got the final signature.

That's a valid view. Honestly, though, I'd rather they waited a little longer and actually fixed more of the bugs. Makes them look less stupid.

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However it would be sad if this were to become an anti-SMF sound-off forum, rather than pro-Wedge development space

We're still hurting, and when hurting lashing out happens. It's our anthropological way of dealing with it. (You can't fight centuries of evolution so easily!)

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Then you can let your coding do the talking, and people will be more willing to listen if Wedge were something new and better rather than something negative.

Right now our hands are still tied, and until they actually put their money where their mouth is, that's going to remain the case. I honestly can't wait to see the community's reaction to 2.0 final because unless a miracle happens, it's not really that much different from RC5.

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I hope my honesty is not out of line.

I can't speak for anyone else but if you feel something, please don't be afraid to say it. We may agree, we may disagree, but it's nice to be part of an environment where we can all say what we're honestly thinking.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 09:32 PM

There was a bike club - the Honda Hornet Owners Club - which had a big bust-up a few years ago. Some of its committee members had been wondering where everybody's £5 membership fee was going and they were chucked out, after years of hard work for their club.

They formed their own Hornet club which should have been so much better than the official one (who were up their own arses). But they spent their time slagging of the other club, trying to right old wrongs.

People should have joined them - no £5 fee and a hardworking team. But a club dedicated to slagging off another club, no matter how cathartic to its owners, will only have limited appeal.

Comparing and contrasting is fine, bragging about the bugs you've fixed is fine, but endlessly slagging them off will only turn people off Wedge.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 30th, 2011, 01:33 AM

Quote from Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 09:32 PM

There was a bike club - the Honda Hornet Owners Club - which had a big bust-up a few years ago. Some of its committee members had been wondering where everybody's £5 membership fee was going and they were chucked out, after years of hard work for their club.

They formed their own Hornet club which should have been so much better than the official one (who were up their own arses). But they spent their time slagging of the other club, trying to right old wrongs.

People should have joined them - no £5 fee and a hardworking team. But a club dedicated to slagging off another club, no matter how cathartic to its owners, will only have limited appeal.

Comparing and contrasting is fine, bragging about the bugs you've fixed is fine, but endlessly slagging them off will only turn people off Wedge.

History has shown that some of what you say is true in the short term due to the propaganda of tirants, but eventually with the truth exposed, the tirants loose out when they can no longer justify their existance.
Todate, few of the team can justify their exisitance especially when all they can say for their fupaw is that they are "volunteers". It's a shame they abuse a worthy term to explain screwing up on many levels.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Nao on May 30th, 2011, 09:54 AM

Quote from Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 10:46 AM

There is a little activity, nothing to write home about. I last sync'd at 10542 which was made 9 days ago. There have been 10 commits since then: 1 converter related, 4 relating to the copyright warning/checks/credits, 1 PostgreSQL fix (not even from the dev team), 1 security-related bug (and I'm not sure I entirely like their fix either), 1 search bug, and 2 layout related issues. (A commit per day from a group of 3 is not exactly busy.)

Yeah... I just checked, and I made 16 commits in the exact same time frame. ::)
Postgresql fix = Oldiesmann, I guess? :P

Posted: May 30th, 2011, 09:54 AM

Quote from billy2 on May 29th, 2011, 12:18 PM

Lex says "The fights and political drama within SMF are mostly done with"......... good lad  :eheh:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=435462.msg3055036#msg3055036

Got a lot of things to answer to that thread... Hope I'll find some time to do it.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: live627 on May 30th, 2011, 10:00 AM

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Postgresql fix = Oldiesmann, I guess? :P

You got him all figured out. :) Yes, it was Oldies since there was a bug report for it recently which was signed off and fixed by him. (It was something to do with custom smilies not loading/sorting right)

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Nao on May 30th, 2011, 10:20 AM

Quote from Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 12:19 PM

And yes you are (esp. Nao) evidently still affected by SMF's treatment of you.

Not that much. I moved on many months ago... Obviously I haven't been posting at all on sm.org. I could have created a fake account over there, posted a hundred fake posts or so, and then unleashed some hate against them. Or something.
Nah, I just don't care enough to justify resorting to childish methods. (I only do when I care :niark:)

And believe me, the time I spent on Wedge was MUCH more enjoyable than any time I could have spent within the SMF team, coping with all of the slackers, liars and all of those with ego issues. (They want you to believe they're all gone... Then why haven't they made amends with us, eh? Simple question...)

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And I know you are doing this project for yourselves, and for your own motives.

My own motive is to make SMF better. My love for the software was ten times stronger than my resentment for those in charge.
I would like to thank those from the old team -- those who left when the management started screwing up. They're the ones who demanded from the new team that they release SMF in BSD form, so that anyone could fork it. It'll be an interesting development, for the good of both SMF and external projects -- they'll share code with each other, hopefully. (And maybe one day we can put all of these issues behind us and release our own changes as BSD as well for SMF to reuse. But not for now. Not for the foreseeable future. I don't want to see vbLamer legally take my code, fuck it up and release it. Brrrr.)

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However it would be sad if this were to become an anti-SMF sound-off forum, rather than pro-Wedge development space.

Oh, there's enough room for some SMF bashing really. Between November and April, the SMF bashing was kept to a minimum level in private. I don't remember a single new topic about their antics. It just happens that going public about Wedge brought back some hate *from* the SMF team (remember how they censored all of our signatures and such). Without these particular actions of hostility against us, we would have remained neutral just the same.
I'm just not the kind of guy you can attack without expecting a reply of sorts.

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We all have to live with SMF (the software) until Wedge is released and we can compare and choose. Then you can let your coding do the talking,

Always been the case...
And I doubt it will have any effect over SMF, really. Unless Wedge is an instant success, but I doubt it will be, considering I'm not the kind of guy who enjoys doing marketing.

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and people will be more willing to listen if Wedge were something new and better rather than something negative.

Any SMF bashing and general negativism is okay in the off-topic boards (until now, at least -- now that I've created a 'SMF' board, any criticism should be posted there), but I'll try to make sure it doesn't show up in the Wedge-related boards.

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I hope my honesty is not out of line.

We're always listening to what people have to say. And we don't believe in censorship, unlike errr... You know who.

Posted: May 30th, 2011, 10:09 AM

Quote from Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 09:32 PM

People should have joined them - no £5 fee and a hardworking team. But a club dedicated to slagging off another club, no matter how cathartic to its owners, will only have limited appeal.

If it was *dedicated* to doing that, then yes, it is doomed to fail...
Please choose your words more carefully :P

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Comparing and contrasting is fine, bragging about the bugs you've fixed is fine,

Oh, I'm not even doing that!
Perhaps I should :P

SMF bugs fixed just *this month* by yours truly, and not ever reported or fixed by them:

- $txt['parent_boards'] should actually be $txt['child_boards'] ($txt['sub_boards'] in Wedge) because that's what it's about...
- crash when providing several negative search terms (i.e. excluded terms) in a search.
- a bug fix by the SMF team about linktree whitespace. I reverted it and fixed it *properly*.
- rewrote Issue Warning JS to actually work as the SMF code *wanted* it to work (drag'n'slide to change percentage), because yes, it didn't work.

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but endlessly slagging them off will only turn people off Wedge.

I've got a lot of leeway to do this, really. I think I could spend my entire days babbling about SMF, it still wouldn't change a thing about the fact that Wedge *is* what SMF 3.0 should be, only years ahead from it. No one in the SMF team can do a thing about that.

I think we're still being nice with SMF. We try to keep bashing to topics that clearly mention SMF in the subject, things like that. We're posting in public, so that the SMF team can reply, or even report posts and ask us to back down if they think we're going too far (as I said above, we listen to suggestions.)
We have many friends in the SMF team -- most of them are registered here and are enjoying Friend status and regular news about the progress of Wedge, and we don't mind that they're in the SMF team, and they're perfectly aware that when we're lashing out at the SMF team, we're not complaining about the entire team, we're complaining about those in charge who could *do something* about the terrible SMF/Wedge relationships, and just don't give a damn about it.

That's all...

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: live627 on May 31st, 2011, 03:06 AM

Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 30th, 2011, 10:20 AM

Any SMF bashing and general negativism is okay in the off-topic boards (until now, at least -- now that I've created a 'SMF' board, any criticism should be posted there)

http://wedge.org/pub/smf/6694/it-s-been-released-today/ doesn't belong there. It's about Wordpress.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Nao on May 31st, 2011, 08:12 AM

Technically it's a board about Wedge competitors ;) should rename it.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Lex on May 31st, 2011, 11:50 AM

Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 30th, 2011, 09:54 AM

Quote from billy2 on May 29th, 2011, 12:18 PM

Lex says "The fights and political drama within SMF are mostly done with"......... good lad  :eheh:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=435462.msg3055036#msg3055036

Got a lot of things to answer to that thread... Hope I'll find some time to do it.

I was simply being honest from my perspective. Most of the fighting and political games "in-house" were between J10 and the time the NPO took over the project.
After that, the politics have been mostly about figuring out how the project lives within the new NPO family. No fighting really, discussions I'd say.

EDIT: That is, not including events leading to J10 in first place...

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Farjo on May 31st, 2011, 01:15 PM

Well I don't want to get in a quote war however...

"And believe me, the time I spent on Wedge was MUCH more enjoyable than any time I could have spent within the SMF team"
Yes I had noticed, and had thought of starting a flippant thread "Is Nao mellowing?" :eheh:

"They want you to believe they're all gone... Then why haven't they made amends with us, eh? Simple question..." Simple answer... I don't really care. I, and other SMF users, will just care about a. is Wedge any good and b. is simplemachines making progress or still dead in the water. People don't want to come here and see an entire forum dedicated to slagging simplemachines, it gives a bad impression.

"Technically it's a board about Wedge competitors   ;)  should rename it." Perhaps this is the best solution  :)

"Wedge *is* what SMF 3.0 should be, only years ahead from it." Yay  :cool:

But rereading your post, maybe I've missed the point. "They want you to believe they're all gone... Then why haven't they made amends with us, eh?" and "we're complaining about those in charge who could *do something* about the terrible SMF/Wedge relationships" - why is it important to you? You've forked off... If it's an unfriendly relationship then so be it. Why does that get you upset?

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Arantor on May 31st, 2011, 01:16 PM

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Why does that get you upset?

Tell me honestly that you could put 3 years of your life into a project only to be shit on by them and be able to walk away with no ill will on your part.

Title: Re: SMF, yeah right. (Re: Introduction)
Post by: Farjo on May 31st, 2011, 01:45 PM

Hmm yes, even when I was typing the question I had an inkling of what the answer was.

I worked for a small City bank for years and was very bitter after I left. "Richard Williams" is all I'm saying. I left to join the company that provided IT software and consultancy to the bank, so I had to go back to the bank occasionally with a (false) smile on my face. Very tough.

Well I guess this brings us back to letting your code do the talking. If Wedge is good, and simplemachines doesn't move forward, then people will come to you and when you're ready to expand you will be able to pick who your team members are from the good guys, and the others will be left behind.

Myself, after a few months going back to the bank my new company sent me to other places - Dublin, La Havre, Bahamas, Bermuda and the bank realised what they'd lost  :D