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Public area => Off-topic => The Pub => Other software => Topic started by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 01:51 AM

Title: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 01:51 AM
I hope they know what they're doing. I really do. For their sake.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=432988.0
Quote
So, what does this all mean? It means 2.0 final is very very close to being released. Really! I can't give an exact date, but you can trust me that we will release SMF 2.0 final by the end of May, 2011, unless we get hit by an asteroid. In the mean time thank you all for your continued support.
That gives them a shade over 3 weeks to fix the 32 bugs currently tracked. It's feasible, but honestly... they now have to deliver because not doing so will make them look like the biggest laughing stock going, and they will lose what little credibility they have left.


EDIT: Corrected typo.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 6th, 2011, 02:02 AM
32, if the devs were this active...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 6th, 2011, 02:49 AM
I think they will be able to pull it out... I mean, that's what all people in wedge wish for... right?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 02:57 AM
Well, in the short term it gives Nao and myself something to do because it requires us to go over the code one last time at final release and purge it of anything that shouldn't be there (we started with RC3-and-a-bit, which means we need to check that there's no code we still have that they remove in final and that essentially we are no different to the point where we could have derived from final rather than RC3) but after that, we're golden.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on May 6th, 2011, 07:22 AM
I think they'll leave minor bugs in...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: spoogs on May 6th, 2011, 07:36 AM
They almost don't have a choice since they are ensuring the end of the month... I take that to mean where ever we are at that point we will call it 2.0 final and release it, even if there has to be 2.0.1 on June 1st
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on May 6th, 2011, 09:52 AM
Interesting to read the work on SMF3 is also underway
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 09:56 AM
Not really that interesting, nor that surprising. Any developer with an ounce of intelligence is going to be considering 'the next big thing' whilst finishing up 'the current big thing'. (We're on the ramp up, so everything here's on 'the current big thing')

But seriously, SMF 3 will be a from-scratch rewrite for it to meet the things they've hinted they want to do. Guess how long that takes.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on May 6th, 2011, 10:05 AM
/mechucklesI found it interesting.


p.s why have I got a frame around my Wedge logo - something to do with my pathetic attempt at BBC I presume?

pps thank you Arantor for proper image code
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 10:15 AM
RE P.S. Not exactly; this site uses the Noisen codebase rather than an unmodified SMF (until we get round to moving it to Wedge), and Noisen is more blog oriented, so images have a border and different alignment.

You might want to try:
Code: [Select]
[img align=left]http://wedge.org/minilogo.png[/img]
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dr. Deejay on May 6th, 2011, 10:23 AM
Wasn't the plan to begin with 2.1's development after 2.0?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 6th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Well... yes.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dr. Deejay on May 6th, 2011, 10:29 AM
Hmmm I wonder how long 3.0 will take =P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 6th, 2011, 10:39 AM
I would be so bold to say at least a year for a dedicated full time team whose members are very knowledgeable of developing in PHP, MySQL, whatever database systems they wanna support, some flavor of HTML, Javascript, CSS, the goodies. And know it proficiently enough to keep the bug screen up,, maintain a fence on various attacks and vulnerabilities, and have a good vision.

Not everyone fits that. Certainly I don't.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 6th, 2011, 11:18 AM
I thought I didn't, and then I realized I did. You know, all it takes is a bold attempt at doing it. The confidence builds up by itself after a while.

SMF3 will either take 5 years to come out, or just be a minor update. It seems to have become a trend these days, what with Chrome skipping a version number everytime they add a menu item... Pff. (I had a very aggressive release cycle with Kyodai Mahjongg, with 21 major versions in 9 years, but I *did* add an awful lot of visible changes in every major version. Chrome, not so much. At version 12 I don't see a difference with version 6 or so.)
Firefox wants to release version 5 by June and 6 by this summer or so, they certainly understood the 'spirit'.
As for us -- I suspect we should be able to go public alpha this summer. With a gold release set to 2011 of course. When exactly will depend on when Pete gets back to work on Wedge. (There are many elements in Wedge that I can't/wouldn't implement without Pete's consent/help.)

Re: the ability of the SMF team to release in May? Well yeah, sure, they can do it. Only if they don't fix more than a couple of bugs, of course. Not that it matters that much -- seriously, what's the issue with post-gold incremental bug fixes anyway? Every major software package has bugs on release day. What matters is that these bugs don't bother more than 1-2% of your codebase. (Unlike jQuery 1.6 and their .attr() feature changes which forced me to rewrite a couple dozen lines to remain compatible >_<)

Oh, just for fun...
http://dev.simplemachines.org/mantis/view.php?id=4714
Seriously Ante, you're STILL at that point for SMF 2.1? That's what makes you vomit in SMF2? GIFs? How about animated GIFs? How about small GIFs that are smaller than their PNG counterpoint? (Yes, there are.) How about you get to work on the real stuff that makes any designer vomit when looking at the SMF files? (There are plenty to choose from. GIF overuse is certainly not at the top of the list...)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 6th, 2011, 11:21 AM
Let's be honest for a minute.

Of the current dev team, one of them has outright said he is "just the markup guy". One of them is a capable modder/coder, the other is relatively unknown. Between them, that doesn't really spell 'vision' to me.

EDIT: Getting rid of GIFs can be advantageous but doing so just because you want rid of GIFs isn't particularly clever. Unless he means fresher images too...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Artur on May 6th, 2011, 11:10 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 6th, 2011, 11:18 AM
Oh, just for fun...
http://dev.simplemachines.org/mantis/view.php?id=4714
Seriously Ante, you're STILL at that point for SMF 2.1? That's what makes you vomit in SMF2? GIFs? How about animated GIFs? How about small GIFs that are smaller than their PNG counterpoint? (Yes, there are.) How about you get to work on the real stuff that makes any designer vomit when looking at the SMF files? (There are plenty to choose from. GIF overuse is certainly not at the top of the list...)
I would say it depends. I see that my normal gifs (not animated) are sometimes bigger than the png counterparts. I lol'd about that bug report. But honestly, does that even count as a bug? :hmm:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 6th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Quote from Tah Zonemaster on May 6th, 2011, 10:29 AM
Hmmm I wonder how long 3.0 will take =P
5...no wait, only this time they will double it to 10. :p
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 7th, 2011, 03:09 AM
According to one support specialist  :whistle: post today, RC5 is near ready for release
http://www.simplemachines.org/…c=402014.msg3036936#msg3036936(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=402014.msg3036936#msg3036936)
It amazes me that with so few people on the team one hand has no clue what the other is doing. And I see they just took on a new support specialist who in my opinion made the grade by her post count hedged by "We are all volunteers here", "Stop asking questions".
More post like that will surely be rewarded with a promotion to developer.
Seems she fits right in the the other obnoxious team members.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 7th, 2011, 07:54 AM
Who are you talking about?

(oh and the post you linked is by LexArma. He's here, too!)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 7th, 2011, 08:42 AM
Quote from Artur on May 6th, 2011, 11:10 PM
I would say it depends. I see that my normal gifs (not animated) are sometimes bigger than the png counterparts. I lol'd about that bug report. But honestly, does that even count as a bug? :hmm:
No, but to some short-sighted people it would, so I'm not surprised.

GIFs are usually bigger than the PNG equivalent (especially PNG-8). But not that much. Usually, big GIFs are caused by unoptimized palette handling. Just look at how SmushIt can reduce a GIF size by half sometimes. Also, the original reason for going PNG instead of GIF was because of the patent around GIF. Well, it no longer is an issue, since the patent has expired AFAIK.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 7th, 2011, 09:10 AM
On the nature of the team: yes, RC5 is "practically final" so it was a fair comment to make.

Yes, that lovely person who basically mini-moderates everything is a decent % of the comment I made recently about not really being right for the team, because all she is doing is not answering questions. Now, during my time, I did some of that (we all did) but her bluntness makes my bluntness look tame.

On PNGs: there are three reasons to use PNG over GiF: file size is usually smaller, the LZW patent and true colour support.

On the matter of file size, you can often tweak and gouge to make it smaller; that's one of the perks of variable encodings of lossless compression. Sometimes GIF will win but usually it doesn't. True colour support including alpha makes for prettier images but IE6 not supporting it without a hack made it painful. And yes, the LZW patent has expired at least in the US and most if not all of the European countries where it was registered.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 7th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Quote from Arantor on May 7th, 2011, 09:10 AM
Yes, that lovely person who basically mini-moderates everything is a decent % of the comment I made recently about not really being right for the team, because all she is doing is not answering questions. Now, during my time, I did some of that (we all did) but her bluntness makes my bluntness look tame.
I still don't know who that is...
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True colour support including alpha makes for prettier images but IE6 not supporting it without a hack made it painful.
IE6 supports it through PNG8, although it's pretty much impossible to guarantee your icon will be very legible. I know that the AeMe icons, once converted to PNG8, don't look very good in IE6 because of a bad estimation on the alpha level threshold (I probably would prefer to have them with a gray background in that case.) Still, overall filesize is now half of what it is in AeMe for SMF. And since I'm all about saving bandwidth to make space for jQuery...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 7th, 2011, 10:08 AM
I'm referring to Illori.

As for IE6, if users will use that decade old pretender, they can expect it to look crap.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 7th, 2011, 10:30 AM
Hmm... Never seen a post by her, so I can't say.

IE6: doesn't change to me... 11% market share means I have to provide minimum support for it. Bad graphics and bad layout happen everyday for IE6 users (on every other website), so I don't bother with that, but it's still the same as 8 months ago: I want to piss people off for keeping using that decade-old browser, but I always feel compelled to do some extra work to support them. The quest for perfection is a double-edged sword.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 7th, 2011, 10:33 AM
I'm not averse to it *working* on IE6 but I don't really want to burn time making it look good.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 7th, 2011, 10:40 AM
You don't have to since I am :p
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Artur on May 7th, 2011, 09:59 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 7th, 2011, 10:30 AM
Hmm... Never seen a post by her, so I can't say.

IE6: doesn't change to me... 11% market share means I have to provide minimum support for it. Bad graphics and bad layout happen everyday for IE6 users (on every other website), so I don't bother with that, but it's still the same as 8 months ago: I want to piss people off for keeping using that decade-old browser, but I always feel compelled to do some extra work to support them. The quest for perfection is a double-edged sword.
But why? Even Microsoft want users to switch to a newer version of IE. http://ie6countdown.com/

Almost 40% of your 11% market share comes from china...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 8th, 2011, 12:04 AM
Yeah, I know this site, it's the only thing that keeps me sane. Ask Pete, I keep repeating to myself that "we don't care about the Chinese market do we?" :P

The 34.6% market share for China is not inside IE.
What it means is that 34.6% of all Chinese Internet users are running IE6.
.346 x 500M (approx) = about 170 million people in China are using IE6.....
Since there are a bit over 2 billion Internet users worldwide, that would mean China's IE6 share accounts for ((500M/2B) * .346) = 8% or so of all Internet users are Chinese IE6 users. 8% out of 11% is about 75%...

So, basically, 75% of all IE6 users in the world are Chinese.

(Correct me if my calculations are wrong. I may not have the most recent data, and I didn't launch my calculator :P)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 8th, 2011, 01:38 AM
Just look at the bottom of the box, doesn't it say 'Made in China'? :thanks: :whistle:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Artur on May 8th, 2011, 10:33 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 8th, 2011, 12:04 AM
The 34.6% market share for China is not inside IE.
I didn't said that. I said that almost 40% of your 11% marktshare is going to chinese ie6 users. If 11% is 100% and 40% are chinese ie6 users then there is 60% left of that 11% marktshare for other countries ie6 users.

 :hmm:
Quote from Road Rash on May 8th, 2011, 01:38 AM
Just look at the bottom of the box, doesn't it say 'Made in China'? :thanks: :whistle:
Wouldn't it say "Made in Redmond - Dead customer support"?  :lol:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 8th, 2011, 11:29 AM
Quote from Artur on May 8th, 2011, 10:33 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 8th, 2011, 12:04 AM
The 34.6% market share for China is not inside IE.
I didn't said that. I said that almost 40% of your 11% marktshare is going to chinese ie6 users.
No. As I said: 75% of the 11% marketshare is Chinese.
Quote
If 11% is 100% and 40% are chinese ie6 users then there is 60% left of that 11% marktshare for other countries ie6 users.
No, 25%. Please re-read my post...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 8th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Yeah, but you know what? Making stuff work in IE6 (i.e. not break horribly) is much, much harder than trying to make IE6 look modern ;)
I have problems with it on a daily basis... Just so it won't *break*. In fact, I'm currently getting pissed at IE6 for not playing fair with my Zoomedia rewrite.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 8th, 2011, 04:35 PM
It works on IE6? Well, useless people who don't manage PCs will appreciate it.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 9th, 2011, 01:12 AM
As mentioned in the private area -- it's a jQuery bug actually ;)
http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/9109#comment:5 (with my fix.)
Although technically, it's also IE6's fault...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 9th, 2011, 11:27 PM
So, the transfer seems to be complete; the team has now published the NPO bylaws, the trademark guidelines and a bunch of other stuff - like a new front page.

I think we can safely say that it's going to emerge on schedule, then, which means we have an interesting few weeks ahead while we merge in the remaining changes, and making sure code is fully compliant (because I am damned if I'm going to let anyone pull a C&D out) then we can proceed as we see fit. But I will do a code review once 2.0 final lands to ensure that the codebase is free of any issues after that, so that we can finally cut loose.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 9th, 2011, 11:53 PM
Quote from Arantor on May 9th, 2011, 11:27 PM
So, the transfer seems to be complete; the team has now published the NPO bylaws,
"Booooring!"

Seriously, that's long, legal mumbo-jumbo and it's even got typos...
Quote
the trademark guidelines and a bunch of other stuff - like a new front page.
It's better than the earlier one, but it's still ugly. Do they have a designer onboard at this point...??

They also publish their CLA now.
And they removed their team page -- and replaced it with an NPO team page where they list the board members. Interestingly, it seems to imply Kindred is the boss now... Even though he resigned some time ago :P
Also, all SMF Friends are gone -- you're no longer on the list. Instead they list all NPO subscribers, including some very recent members like Illori. Here's wondering if they actually paid the $50 mentioned in the NPO bylaws...
Quote
I think we can safely say that it's going to emerge on schedule, then, which means we have an interesting few weeks ahead while we merge in the remaining changes, and making sure code is fully compliant (because I am damned if I'm going to let anyone pull a C&D out) then we can proceed as we see fit. But I will do a code review once 2.0 final lands to ensure that the codebase is free of any issues after that, so that we can finally cut loose.
I'm not exactly sure what to do about AeMe at this point... I'm still in the process of rewriting the Highslide replacement and various other things. I estimate it'll take several more weeks just to reach the level of quality I would expect from my gallery code.
Also, what about our CLA? You're in charge, man, you deal with it :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 9th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Actually, if you read the bylaws, anyone who is a team member, or has recently been, the dues are waived in consideration of services rendered.

Honestly, though, this is the final nail in the coffin in terms of "we value our friends" because it seems to me that they don't, and now they have the balls to admit it.

AeMe is not subject to the SMF licence, it just isn't a problem. As far as code review goes, I'm interested in ensuring that their code does not affect us. Everything else is secondary.

I have an hour or so, so I will actually get that written up right now! I hate the fact that the last couple of weeks in particular, I've been dragged off to one thing before finishing the previous.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 10th, 2011, 12:02 AM
Quote from Arantor on May 9th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Actually, if you read the bylaws, anyone who is a team member, or has recently been, the dues are waived in consideration of services rendered.
So, they value yours less than Illori's and such? :P
Quote
Honestly, though, this is the final nail in the coffin in terms of "we value our friends" because it seems to me that they don't, and now they have the balls to admit it.
Pretty much, yeah.
Quote
AeMe is not subject to the SMF licence, it just isn't a problem.
Never said it'd be. Although Highslide had to go, because of the confusing license (i.e. author being okay with free redistribution, but requiring end users to pay...) The least I could do is make sure Zoomedia behaves at least as well as Highslide does. (It's not easy. Highslide is state of the art really. I'm afraid we may have to do without the slideshow code in the first public alpha.)
Quote
As far as code review goes, I'm interested in ensuring that their code does not affect us.
As I said, I wouldn't bother much. If they find anything they consider suspicious, we'll just rewrite it. We're cool with that.
Quote
I have an hour or so,
Not me :P
G'night!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 10th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Quote
they removed their team page
And made it harder to get to. They link to it on the front page.

And those buttons... eeeewwwwwww! Something tells me Ante was at work. And their top margin needs increased. Actually, he original square SMF buttons would look so much better too.

Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 10th, 2011, 04:38 AM
Just some legal observations.

1) Article 1 has no sections. Even in the State of Nevada where many questionable incorporation's occur, a designated section is to be declared, not omitted as "Article I Section 1"

2) Article II is missing Section 1.0 through 2.0.

I could go on with all the legal infractions and questionable declarations here, suffice it to say the whole Bylaw is questionable and would be a fools arrand to defend if ever challenged.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 10th, 2011, 10:07 AM
Quote from live627 on May 10th, 2011, 12:27 AM
And those buttons... eeeewwwwwww! Something tells me Ante was at work.
Yeah, it's part of the ugliness. The text shadow is particularly awful.
Quote
And their top margin needs increased. Actually, he original square SMF buttons would look so much better too.
Sometimes, simplicity is best.

Re: team page, I didn't realize it was on the front page... It's becoming obvious that they have two different sidebars for the About section. One has the Team page, the other has the NPO page. The Team page no longer has a marketing section, so Kindred isn't in it... The NPO page no longer has Friends, but JBlaze is in it even though he's a 'Friend' in the Team page.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 10th, 2011, 02:03 PM
I like the new front page, the buttons might not be awesome but it finally looks like a 2000s site.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 10th, 2011, 02:52 PM
And it's broken on iPad, being misrendered because obviously everyone uses more than 1024 wide ::)

Also, I happened to notice MrGrumpy being made Support Helper of the Month. Now, fair play to him for supporting, but he has made a total of 64 posts thus far. Yup, 64. Even if that's all in one month, that's still pretty poor (I used to average double that PER DAY!) as a basis for SHOTM, sorry.

I really hope the one person who told me last week that I "use any excuse to twist the knife" even when I don't have any agenda reads this, then they can see that I'm not twisting the knife one bit, I don't have to do that, when the team is more than capable of demonstrating their own incompetences.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 10th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Bo-hoo, apple-boy, get a real table :eheh:

It could be worst, it could be a troll who get the SHOTM.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: spoogs on May 10th, 2011, 04:42 PM
Quote from Road Rash on May 10th, 2011, 04:38 AM
Just some legal observations.

1) Article 1 has no sections. Even in the State of Nevada where many questionable incorporation's occur, a designated section is to be declared, not omitted as "Article I Section 1"

2) Article II is missing Section 1.0 through 2.0.

I could go on with all the legal infractions and questionable declarations here, suffice it to say the whole Bylaw is questionable and would be a fools arrand to defend if ever challenged.
I wont for a moment pretend to know much (if anything) about this stuff... but for the hell of it i checked out a few little things
My uncle is on the BoD of an NPO (Florida) and no sections are declared in any article of the bylaws that only has 1 section... mind you this company has been around over 10 years.
- Is this right or wrong I dont know... but it makes sense to me.

I'm sure section 2.1 actually means Article 2, section 1 what as 2.2 is Article 2, section2
- I've seen other legal docs written like this (only they didn't pertain to a bylaws)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 10th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Pete, I'd noticed about texasguy and I thought I wouldn't mention it because, errr, I wasn't sure whether it would a laughing matter, given how ridiculous this is :P
OTOH, it's just... What? 'Support helper of the month for a dying platform'? No wonder 60 posts are enough to get you the title... Plus, with you around, why would they need a support guy? And giving you the SHOTM title every month would be the equivalent of admitting they're in deep shit :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: CJ Jackson on May 10th, 2011, 05:49 PM
would a laughing matter? I think you mean "was a laughing matter or not:D
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 10th, 2011, 05:53 PM
@spoogs
Articles are declared with Roman Numerals ie: Article I, II, III etc.
Sections are declared by numeric value and sequence ie: Section 1, 2, 3, etc under the given Article.
Proper declaration
Article I
Section 1)
Section 2)
Article II
Section 1)
Section 2)
etc.
 
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: spoogs on May 10th, 2011, 06:02 PM
I get that much.. my statement was more based on whether a section needed to be declared if there is only 1 section... and that where they have section 2.1 is referring to Article II, section 1 opposed to section 1.0 being missing.

I took a look at a few corporate filings just out of curiosity and noticed that many do not declare section to an Article if there is only 1. As a far as Section 2.1 and I didnt come across any corporate filings using that format (admitted I dont care enough about the situation to search more than I already did) but I've seen a few other legal doc that used that format.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on May 10th, 2011, 06:17 PM
Road Rash, there are multiple valid ways to write legal documents, and like spoogs pointed out - If the content of an article is a single item, no section heading/number is needed. And the numbering goes by article.subsection, so the 2.1 is article 2 section 1. ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 10th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Yes it is proper to declare Section 1) in the case of one section for that article.
Quote
and that where they have section 2.1 is referring to Article II, section 1 opposed to section 1.0 being missing.
Section 2.1 declares second section of the article which contains a subsection .1 of section 2.

You might even find some without (Section) but simply 1), 2), 3) etc under the article.

 
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 10th, 2011, 06:30 PM
Erm... Anyway, I don't believe a document could be nulled in courts just because it doesn't have pretty section numbers... (???)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on May 10th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 10th, 2011, 06:30 PM
Erm... Anyway, I don't believe a document could be nulled in courts just because it doesn't have pretty section numbers... (???)
Yeah, my thoughts exactly - plus it's a paper that only affects the members of the NPO, so if someone wished to argue it's validity it should be someone within the NPO.. I see no real reason for anyone to argue over them, when they don't affect you at all.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: spoogs on May 10th, 2011, 09:02 PM
Quote from Bloc on May 10th, 2011, 08:48 PM
The new "styles" now are titlebg/windowbg variations I've seen used in portals mods, even from SimpleDesk..and while they are nice in themselves(suiting Curve better than the previous styles which wasn't Curve-based at ALL)
[OT]
Feel free to offer some help or suggestions on SD, we have discussed changing bits of the layout here and there, Arantor has done some awesome things getting it to where it is but we certainly welcome a designer's touch ;)
[/OT]
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 10th, 2011, 09:24 PM
To be fair, when that variation was done originally (at least when SD really pushed it), that was a whole year ago ;)

I'm slightly more amused at the typos, almost as though no-one proof-read it first... I suspect I know who did that, and honestly, it's a shade embarrassing that it wasn't proof read ahead of time, and that it wasn't tested on 1024 wide where it would definitely be misaligned.

I have the unnerving feeling of it being how can I put this... rushed and ill-prepared?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on May 10th, 2011, 10:31 PM
SMF 2.0 final release is going to be the same day PSN will be available again I think.. delayed and delayed.. :P :eheh:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 10th, 2011, 10:38 PM
And it's claiming to beat Duke Nukem Forever...

:edit: I see Fustrate had the same idea, haha
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 11th, 2011, 06:40 AM
Quote from Lex on May 10th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 10th, 2011, 06:30 PM
Erm... Anyway, I don't believe a document could be nulled in courts just because it doesn't have pretty section numbers... (???)
Yeah, my thoughts exactly - plus it's a paper that only affects the members of the NPO, so if someone wished to argue it's validity it should be someone within the NPO.. I see no real reason for anyone to argue over them, when they don't affect you at all.
@Nao, you're right it would not nullify the document. But there are many other legal infraction of an NPO that will cost them dearly if challenged.

@Lex, it was more drawing attention to the syntax of the document, which I later discovered was written by Kindred. Yes there are many ways of entering the Articles and Sections, not all are the correct format however. I don't program but in legal circles, like a programmer correcting improper syntax, I am a stickler for format and dotting all i's and crossing all t's. 
 
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on May 11th, 2011, 09:39 AM
Quote from Road Rash on May 11th, 2011, 06:40 AM
@Lex, it was more drawing attention to the syntax of the document, which I later discovered was written by Kindred. Yes there are many ways of entering the Articles and Sections, not all are the correct format however. I don't program but in legal circles, like a programmer correcting improper syntax, I am a stickler for format and dotting all i's and crossing all t's.
That I can understand - Nothing wrong with being a bit pedantic about something you care about.

But, honestly if you wished to point out weaknesses or errors in said articles, you could have given constructive feedback to the people behind it, and made a difference perhaps - instead of starting to bad mouth the validity and contents of the articles publicly, in a place where most of the team won't even visit to see your comments.

It is this kind of approach from you, that makes many believe you are a troll and nothing more.
Please note, I'm not calling you a troll here - just making a point.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 11th, 2011, 05:06 PM
It has never been about about me being a troll or being accused of same, it has always been about their conduct and abuse of power.
Let me try a parallel - you get caught whizzing on some missus flowers. You had a need and did what you had to. You are caught and confronted with your inappropriate behaviour. Rather than deal with you conduct, or apologize from perhaps embarrassment that you been caught you go into defence mode and call your accuser a pervert for watching you handle your man hood. You continue with your accusation of him being a pervert until the issue of your conduct is no longer relevant. Pretty soon others are no longer concerned with your conduct, they have a pervert to deal with. The power of a word.  :whistle:
Pervert like troll is nothing more than a strong reactionary word. By this I mean people react to the word and not the issue at hand. It is a manipulative tool to defer the issue from your inappropriate conduct to the accuser. A smoke screen if you like to cloud the issue and divert attention from oneself onto another.
Points I raised some 6 months ago and since, have been lost because the offenders and their support group have successfully diverted having to answer or explain the issue by using this manipulative tool.
I have learned a long time ago, sticks and stones may break my bones but name will never hurt me, a little ditty my grand dad taught me because in my day, (I'm not surprised either that after 80+ this still applies) bullies taunted others who had differences like they do today. So being called a troll doesn't bother me but the inappropriate conduct towards me and I dare say many others, some who are here, is what is somewhat of a bother. How does that manipulator deal with this? He puts the onus on me and diverts attention from his conduct of calling people names because he has no explanation for the original issue and it give him/them a license for further abuse like changing ones avatar and making it impossible for the person to change their profile (in my case).
I have PM's from several others who this has happened to but wish not to stand up to them. Other forum platforms are over flowing with interest from many past SMF users for the same reason.
As many here know, before my time on SMF and now, offering constructive feedback is not an option. It falls on deaf ears, rather than deal with this and fix it, they defer the issue by name calling and smoke and mirrors.

@Nao or Arantor - if you want to move this post to another area, it's perfectly understandable as it is off topic somewhat.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on May 11th, 2011, 05:31 PM
I would actually like to know what was the thing back then that started this all then?
But I also understand we are going hugely offtopic here...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 11th, 2011, 05:36 PM
RR> Oh, whatever. I just don't read that's all :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 26th, 2011, 08:45 PM
I like how Robbo_ express his feeling. No wonder he choose Xenforo over SMF. :p

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=433566.msg3055218#msg3055218
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: and on May 26th, 2011, 09:52 PM

I saw smf without copyright
clicking on the links  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 26th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Quote from Makar on May 26th, 2011, 09:52 PM
I saw smf without copyright
clicking on the links  :lol: :lol: :lol:
It could be a bug but I doubt it, Robbo knows SMF well enough to know by now...

The question is whether the team will pursue it or not since in theory in the next 5 days we should be free to remove the copyright as we see fit -- IF you're using 2.0.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 26th, 2011, 10:30 PM
Same thought.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on May 28th, 2011, 05:47 AM
I see charter members not getting it first either!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 28th, 2011, 06:09 AM
Nope. I think they settled on bi-monthly dev builds.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 28th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Yup, that was the plan.

You'll still get the sycophants who will cheer that the version has been bumped, but honestly, what are they cheering for? I pulled up the issue that a number of bugs have been deferred to 2.1 or later because they're minor bugs - even if they weren't introduced until 2.0 RC4 in one case...

I accept the position that all software has bugs, but to ship software as 'final' with dozens of known issues, that's ridiculous.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 28th, 2011, 12:39 PM
I don't find it ridiculous. There are some bugs that are easy to overcome (or simply don't occur that often), which in some case is preferable to moving forward with a flawed fix.

What I find ridiculous, however:
- getting a bug report for something that happens a lot + a perfectly working fix, and not applying it....
- constantly insisting that you'll fix everything (when clearly this problem has already caused your software to be delayed by 3 years...)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 28th, 2011, 12:50 PM
That's not what I meant.

You have software that is long delayed, that has a number of bugs that are easy to fix, even with the code provided in some cases. Yet instead of fixing them, they were just deferred to the next version. Not because they were either easy or hard to fix, but because, and I quote the lead developer on more than one of these, they weren't "release worthy".

I could have accepted the position of deferring bugs to a later version if the bugs required a major amount of work to fix *and* there wasn't this "we will fix everything before release" BS that's been floating around for years.

Software is an iterative thing, and a release is a snapshot on an otherwise forward-moving road. I'm cool with that. But the number of deferred things and what has to happen next, they'll maybe fix the little bugs in 2.1 and defer the bigger stuff to 3.0, by which time they'll pretty much have to start fresh and nuke all the old bugs and create many new ones.

As it stands, deferring bugs because you essentially talked yourself into a corner is no way to behave. I even found yet another bug today which we already fixed in passing, I believe, without even discovering the bug itself. I could be nice and report it but it'll only be deferred to 2.1 to fix, so why bother? It's not like it's a security bug.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 28th, 2011, 11:24 PM
Maybe we should really say that Wedge is the unofficial SMF 3.0 :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 28th, 2011, 11:52 PM
They'd love the change to wave their trademark e-peen in that direction ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 29th, 2011, 12:18 AM
SMF is trademarked... But SM F3 isn't :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on May 29th, 2011, 12:18 AM
SMF is trademarked... But SM F3 isn't :niark:
SMF is trademarked in the US. It isn't in the UK or France. ;) As I enjoyed telling the team that if they put the (R) marks in the footer, I'd be sure to remove it from the sites I run that are running totally in the UK.

Arguing SMF vs SM F3 is murky grounds, I'd rather not go there to be honest.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: runic on May 29th, 2011, 08:33 PM
Uh i couldnt see anythin more on this so im bumping about the pages, all SMF stuff have been moved to a new folder pretty much:

http://www.simplemachines.org/about/smf

so the team page is now at:

http://www.simplemachines.org/about/smf/team.php

The about page does have a link to SMF (appropriatley linked as SMF) and is now about Simple Machines aka the NPO  ... just wanted to clear that up a wee bit :P

Anyway 2 days to got and I see 5 unresolved bugs ... getting close it is
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 08:38 PM
Yes, we noticed, probably multiple pages ago. We noticed a great number of things like the inconsistencies in the now-two menus some of which seem to have been resolved by now, not to mention the fact that while there are 5 unresolved bugs, how many more were merely deferred to 2.1 instead of being solved for 2.0?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: runic on May 29th, 2011, 09:02 PM
see im too tired so i appologise for missin those things ... as for the bugs no idea i can barley use the bugtracker (it sucks)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 09:11 PM
Quote from runic on May 29th, 2011, 09:02 PM
see im too tired so i appologise for missin those things ... as for the bugs no idea i can barley use the bugtracker (it sucks)
No need to apologise :) It's not exactly the most obvious thing to spot. And yes, Mantis sucks. I found myself installing it to see how it did something with its permissions, and I found myself hating it even more when using it locally :/
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 09:13 PM
5? What am I doing wrong then as I can see 19 with this link:
http://dev.simplemachines.org/…ht_changed=0&hide_status_id=-2(http://dev.simplemachines.org/mantis/search.php?project_id=1&status_id%5B%5D=10&status_id%5B%5D=20&status_id%5B%5D=30&status_id%5B%5D=40&status_id%5B%5D=50&sticky_issues=on&sortby=id&dir=DESC&per_page=100&highlight_changed=0&hide_status_id=-2)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 09:28 PM
I see 21...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on May 29th, 2011, 09:34 PM
Bloody hell, this is confusing :(


Presumably we'll know it's about to be released when they all get shifted over to 2.1 and the 2.0 bugs outstanding goes to 0.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2011, 09:41 PM
Not really, the 2 I see that you don't are marked as private in the tracker.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 29th, 2011, 11:52 PM
They are all minor things, not a *real* security issue? That's a good reason to release SMF as final...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2011, 12:07 AM
The outstanding 20 or so are minor.

The ones already pushed back, some of which are YEARS old, mostly minor too. My beef with what they're doing is less about what they decide to fix and what they decide to defer (it IS about that, but not so much).

My main beef is how we had all this BS for months about how 2.0 final was going to be bug free, with no issues left in the tracker. Sure, if you just sweep them under the carpet!

If they were prepared to man up and admit that there are issues outstanding that they're going to fix and not this 'final/bug free' BS, I'd give them some lee-way, especially since none of the deferred bugs are going to be fixed in 2.0.1 as and when it emerges, since 2.0.1 will be security or major-earth-shattering issues.

Considering that some of the bugs are minor and have documented fixes that don't break anything and certainly don't cause any regression errors (there's FUD before you start!), it's fairly poor to just defer them when you could fix them and retain some of the element of integrity about what you do.

Personally, I just think it looks bad, especially given how long it's been in RC status.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 30th, 2011, 09:48 AM
...And that's even without mentioning that RC is supposed to be "ready for release, just making sure there aren't any breakers on a larger scale" ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 30th, 2011, 10:02 AM
Haha, try THAt with SM and get mangled butter in return :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 30th, 2011, 11:02 AM
They simply should have remained in Beta longer... And stopped treating their teamies like shit and causing them to leave and abandon their ongoing work... ::) (e.g. January split.)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2011, 11:43 AM
I can elaborate on that a bit actually.

RC1 wasn't really ready to be an RC, it didn't even have Curve in it. The only reason it wasn't 2.0 beta 5 was because they promised the next version would be RC.

RC2 was the first real RC and that had some major flaws in it too. I don't remember how many people were still considering that as a beta too.

RC3 was the first time that the software could genuinely be called an RC, but even that far back some of the more minor bugs were starting to be deferred rather than fixed.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 30th, 2011, 04:05 PM
Spot on, Bloc!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on May 30th, 2011, 04:57 PM
Seems they are updating the site as I post :whistle:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Quote from Powerbob on May 30th, 2011, 04:57 PM
Seems they are updating the site as I post :whistle:
They normally do it before the actual update is released, mostly because they want to give it time to settle in. That, and test the changes to the copyright code.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on May 30th, 2011, 06:43 PM
seems like SMF is using 2.0

SMF 2.0 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on May 30th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Quote from billy2 on May 30th, 2011, 06:43 PM
seems like SMF is using 2.0

SMF 2.0 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
They can use whatever they like but that doesn't change anything does it? If only it were that simple to solve problems by ignoring them and changing the number. Nothing is really resolved.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2011, 06:46 PM
They're using what's in SVN. Which is still missing almost 2 dozen issues to be resolved in the tracker.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on May 30th, 2011, 06:52 PM
Roll on summer......lets get Wedge installed  :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 31st, 2011, 12:52 AM
It's been out for Charter members. :p
Posted: May 31st, 2011, 12:47 AM

Why do I get the feeling that there is gonna be chaos...?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 31st, 2011, 12:54 AM
Considering there's still a good number in the tracker, and honestly 2.0 final doesn't fix that much... (WYSIWYG is still pretty flaky), I've warned them for months that there's going to be a lot of unhappy people come 2.0 final, but would they listen...?

Go look at any debate on the internet about Duke Nukem Forever and the number of comments about it being 'perfect' after this long in limbo. The exact same argument will be levelled at SMF, except they have far less of a leg to stand on in reality.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Rustybarnacle on May 31st, 2011, 01:33 AM
Whatever.  Them getting it out means that whenever Wedge is ready, it can have a release without anymore waiting.  :)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on May 31st, 2011, 01:39 AM
It does not mean that Wedge will be released immediately after. It haven't got to Alpha state yet.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on May 31st, 2011, 01:49 AM
I hardly believe that wedge will take more than 1 month to get the first beta...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on May 31st, 2011, 01:50 AM
Quote from ~DS~ on May 31st, 2011, 01:39 AM
It does not mean that Wedge will be released immediately after. It haven't got to Alpha state yet.
True, but it does mean as said that we're free of any restrictions, so that we will be able to do so as and when we see fit, rather than any more waiting.

At least, we will be once there's been a final sweep of code to ensure that what we have meets the changed terms of their licence (any code that was in prior to final that hasn't been rewritten needs to be rewritten)

And I suspect it means I can get shot of my account, too.
Quote from DoctorMalboro on May 31st, 2011, 01:49 AM
I hardly believe that wedge will take more than 1 month to get the first beta...
Possibly, possibly not. It depends on how much we decide to add, and my getting rid of my other commitments, which right now are beginning to feel more like a ball and chain :(
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 31st, 2011, 08:13 AM
Put aside SD for now. Wedge needs our full commitment.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on May 31st, 2011, 08:48 AM
But it's almost done...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on May 31st, 2011, 10:08 AM
It's time for screenshots and soon a demo site. I think.
Posted: May 31st, 2011, 09:37 AM
Quote from ~DS~ on May 31st, 2011, 12:52 AM
It's been out for Charter members. :p
Just had a look, and can't see anything...

If this release is real, they're making sure no one knows about it...!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on May 31st, 2011, 11:14 AM
I don't understand what is holding things up with the '2.0' release?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 1st, 2011, 06:40 AM
Still nothing, just a noncommittal  post from Norv in the charter news board, 20 views but no replys ::)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 1st, 2011, 06:56 AM
Reminds me of months of rumors about the war ending that dragged into years. And the doom sayers proclaiming they have the inside track about the end of days. Predictions, proclamations come and go as a non event just, in my humble opinion, to show they have the power to raise hopes and dash them against the wall.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on June 1st, 2011, 07:13 AM
Quote from Powerbob on May 31st, 2011, 11:14 AM
I don't understand what is holding things up with the '2.0' release?
As I understand it, there is a small asteroid that is being tackled as we speak - and the release will be made soon none the less. Even though a bit late of the promised schedual...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 1st, 2011, 07:45 AM
Only by three years Eheh.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on June 1st, 2011, 07:51 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 1st, 2011, 07:45 AM
Only by three years Eheh.
Can't deny that, but then again, what's a day or two more in a time scale like that ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 1st, 2011, 07:54 AM
Yeah it's ridiculous all the same.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 1st, 2011, 09:36 AM
Quote from Lex on June 1st, 2011, 07:13 AM
As I understand it, there is a small asteroid that is being tackled as we speak - and the release will be made soon none the less. Even though a bit late of the promised schedual...
I'm sorry, was that asteroid or hemroid? I get confussed when it relates to SMF team.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on June 1st, 2011, 09:38 AM
Quote from Road Rash on June 1st, 2011, 09:36 AM
Quote from Lex on June 1st, 2011, 07:13 AM
As I understand it, there is a small asteroid that is being tackled as we speak - and the release will be made soon none the less. Even though a bit late of the promised schedual...
I'm sorry, was that asteroid or hemroid? I get confussed when it relates to SMF team.
For all I know, it might be the devs ran out of Preparation H - So I can't really give you an answer.
I really do not know much more than the fact that the work is running behind schedual for some reason, I do not know the exact reason...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 1st, 2011, 09:43 AM
Either would be cause for a constipated delay  :whistle:  Or as some of the support staff are fond of saying, "we are all vounteers, don't expect us to know the answer"
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 1st, 2011, 10:24 AM
Quote from Lex on June 1st, 2011, 09:38 AM
For all I know, it might be the devs ran out of Preparation H - So I can't really give you an answer.
I really do not know much more than the fact that the work is running behind schedual for some reason, I do not know the exact reason...
Journey into a SMF developer's mind, May 2011.

"I don't have time for this shit... But I'm sure the other two devs will do it. I mean, with three devs we're bound to have one who has the time. Let's just announce we'll release this month."
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 1st, 2011, 11:01 AM
This is getting more like a pantomime by the hour  :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 11:46 AM
I can understand the release being delayed if there's bugs they're going to fix. I just don't see much in the way of evidence of shit happening.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 1st, 2011, 12:31 PM
Actually, everyone agrees (mostly on sm.org) that "it's okay to delay by a few days if this makes SMF more stable!"

Only, that would actually imply they're doing something on SMF... Doesn't it?
I mean, releasing on May 31 or June 1st isn't the same if they worked on it all that time. But releasing on May 31 or June 1st or July 24 is exactly the same if they were on vacation all the time... ::)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 12:42 PM
That's precisely my point. I could forgive this delay if there were any real evidence of any changes. The tracker doesn't agree, and the only line that the team are giving is that there are bugs being fixed.

I sync'd Wedge's SVN to SMF's on 21st May, that was rev 10542. They're now on rev 10560. I see at least two revs not related to 2.0 in those 18, I see a few credits updates, but I'm not really seeing anything that's setting my world on fire with bugfixes - I see more template bug fixes than other bug fixes in fact, hardly anything that would - in my mind - justify their delay, when the tone of some of the team members who are toeing the party line is that there was something big enough.

See, here's where I have a problem. On the one hand, they're not going to fix a number of minor bugs, but they're going to fix other minor bugs, that are equally aesthetic and minor as the ones they've actively said they're not going to fix this time around. On the other hand, they're saying about how there's something that required them to delay it to get it fixed, but no-one's saying what, and it's not like SVN indicates anything, so unless there's a security hole or major show-stopping bug that isn't documented anywhere outside the team area, I can't call it as anything other than 'shit, we called a deadline and now we failed on that again'.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on June 1st, 2011, 12:48 PM
I now have an idea of what this is about, after Sinan posted on the dev blog - if I'm right, it is understandable that they do not want to call it Final without fixing it to work properly...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, it's the OpenID bug, but as I just pointed out... that ain't new, nor even a surprise - it's been broken since at least RC3 (with the same reason)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: TE on June 1st, 2011, 03:56 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, it's the OpenID bug, but as I just pointed out... that ain't new, nor even a surprise - it's been broken since at least RC3 (with the same reason)
This. The OpenID bug is known since RC3... IMHO a "communication problem" within the team, seems nothing has changed since I left for good reasons.
From a tactical view it was a big mistake. I would have released it as promised on the end of may, then fix all remaining bugs and release a 2.0.1 short time afterwards. At least the promised release date could have been observed.

Now the release is delayed AND there will still be some bugs.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 04:06 PM
You know, it looks like they're enjoying playing at being all grown up and organised, but having no idea how to actually go about it.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on June 1st, 2011, 04:34 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 04:06 PM
You know, it looks like they're enjoying playing at being all grown up and organised, but having no idea how to actually go about it.
Piss-up and brewery come to mind  :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: TE on June 1st, 2011, 05:24 PM
I'll bet there are lots of other bugs.. just found another one..
how to reproduce: add this to index.php
Code: [Select]
class smfException extends Exception
{
public static function error_handler_callback($code, $string, $file, $line, $context)
{
$e = new self($string, $code);
$e->line = $line;
$e->file = $file;

throw $e;
}
}
replace SMFs internal error handler with the above object oriented version:
Code: [Select]
set_error_handler('error_handler');
replace with:
Code: [Select]
set_error_handler(array("smfException", "error_handler_callback"), E_ALL);

then login to the forum and type a wrong password, the result is:
Code: [Select]
Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'smfException' with message 'Undefined offset: 1' in C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\htdocs\svn\Sources\LogInOut.php:701 Stack trace: #0 C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\htdocs\svn\Sources\LogInOut.php(701): smfException::error_handler_callback(8, 'Undefined offse...', 'C:\Program File...', 701, Array) #1 C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\htdocs\svn\Sources\LogInOut.php(282): validatePasswordFlood('5', '') #2 [internal function]: Login2() #3 C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\htdocs\svn\index.php(163): call_user_func('Login2') #4 {main} thrown in C:\Program Files\Apache Software Foundation\Apache2.2\htdocs\svn\Sources\LogInOut.php on line 701
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: wizzle on June 1st, 2011, 05:41 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, it's the OpenID bug, but as I just pointed out... that ain't new, nor even a surprise - it's been broken since at least RC3 (with the same reason)
Well... I beg to differ!  <insert sarcastic smiley>
Quote
I considered it an "unpleasant surprise" because it was found out just days before the planned release.
Which also explains the slow timeline. 3 days SMF time = 7 months real time.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dragooon on June 1st, 2011, 05:45 PM
That's normal? You're throwing an exception from an error handler, there is no exception handler and the error handler is treated as a normal function. So...I see no reason for it to be a bug.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: TE on June 1st, 2011, 06:10 PM
the exception is thrown because of this line:
Code: [Select]
$_SESSION['failed_login'] = @$_SESSION['failed_login'] + 1;
$_SESSION['failed_login'] isn't set at this time, thus proper (cleaner) code should be:
Code: [Select]
$_SESSION['failed_login'] = isset($_SESSION['failed_login']) ? ($_SESSION['failed_login'] + 1) : 1;
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dragooon on June 1st, 2011, 06:24 PM
Ah you were catching the error and intentionally throwing the exception, I thought you were bugging about the exception being uncaught.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 1st, 2011, 07:36 PM
Quote from TE on June 1st, 2011, 06:10 PM
the exception is thrown because of this line:
I have no idea what this does, but rest assured that I've applied your fix to the two occurrences in Login2.php ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: TE on June 1st, 2011, 08:24 PM
np, it's not very complicated. php has it's own build-in exception class(http://www.php.net/manual/en/class.exception.php) for catching errors, which is IMO very useful, especially when using object oriented code. The class smfException extends this internal class with a simple function (error_handler_callback). This function creates an object every time an error is reached and throws the related error to the screen. Instead of using SMFs internal error handler I just replaced it with the new function.

PHPs internal exception class is somewhat more nitpicking than the normal error handler, thus the script aborted.

Example: the normal error_handler would allow this, simply because of the @ before $test. (int) would force an undefined variable (without the @ you'd get an undefined index error) to become 0. the exception class doesn't allow such "dirty" coding.
Code: [Select]
<?php
$test 
= (int) @$test;
echo 
$test;
?>
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Xarcell on June 2nd, 2011, 12:04 AM
GOD, how many times is SMF going they say the release is near and it never is?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 2nd, 2011, 12:09 AM
Quote from Xarcell on June 2nd, 2011, 12:04 AM
GOD, how many times is SMF going they say the release is near and it never is?
And you wonder why they get so much ridicule. Point of interest, it was said to certain people there last summer that if Nao and I were left alone to get on with the dev work, 2.0 would have been finished by the end of 2010. (Which, barring external circumstances, it would have been. The only reason I'm not full pelt on it is SimpleDesk, as the team blog over there will testify with results of the last 3 months' work on it)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 2nd, 2011, 01:27 AM
Yeah, it would definitely have been ready by the end of 2010... I'd probably even have had time to play with SMF 2.1 in a SVN branch, just to kill my urges to make big changes to the trunk, eh eh.

Anyway, what's done is done...

Pete, if I'm not mistaken, SimpleDesk is mainly used by the sm.org website, right...? So, technically, you're working for SMF right? Get out of here now, you filthy spy :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 2nd, 2011, 01:45 AM
Quote
Pete, if I'm not mistaken, SimpleDesk is mainly used by the sm.org website, right...?
It was originally written for them (which is why the topic/ticket move code even exists, because it was their idea), but virtually everything from after 1.0 is stuff they don't need or want, with the exception of email notifications which they even hacked in for their own site (and 2.0 does so much better anyway). All of which is fine by me, they can use it if they like, or they can ignore it. But I wrote 2.0 mostly for me and some collaborators of mine, and I'm just nice enough to release it to the community, because it was stuff that was on the roadmap anyway, and this way I get it tested by people who aren't me and it gets tested in other peoples' non production environments before I inflict it on a real production environment.


There is a rumour circulating that the second SM project will be to fork SimpleDesk and turn it into SM Helpdesk (especially since I made it very clear last summer that if they wanted to adopt SD as an official project, they'd require another CLA from me because neither the document I electronically signed in the SD team boards, nor the SM CLAs I already signed cover it, and that is just never going to happen)

Them forking it is cool with me, it's under the BSD licence, so they're free to do just that if they like. Except there is no way on hell I'm going to contribute anything to them for it, anything I've done (and anything I would go on to do) goes to the SD project itself not them, and if they want to adopt that into SM, they can have a blast because honestly, I doubt it'll be developed since in the time I wasn't working on it, it was rather sort of inactive. The whole fandango is something of an exercise in how things should be done: I write the code, sometimes it works, sometimes it's buggy, and because no-one else is code reviewing, it leans towards being a bit buggy. But it's actively tested, and when I commit a fix, the testers actually re-test the fixes as well, which means it's confirmed as fixed, or sent back to be fixed again... can you imagine what would happen if this occurred on SM? It would shake things up somewhat.

http://www.simpledesk.net/development/ will attest to that - I was slowing down and left mid July last year, and rejoined mid March this year. And I've spent longer than I ever anticipated on it. But the result is worth it.

Still, if they do fork it, maybe someone will look after it properly, but I won't get my hopes up. (Though if they asked me to take it over, I'd be on the SMHD steering committee and thus have access to some of the sekrit stuff that goes on. Like I'd ever agree to that. Probably sometime after my private key was pried from my cold dead fingers.)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 2nd, 2011, 10:12 AM
Two things:
- 160 commits or so in May...?! My, it's a lot... If only you could put that level of investment into Wedge instead :niark:
- I'd rather see you work on Wedge in any capacity. Not that I have something against SD, but I simply can't understand why you would work on anything that works on SMF at this point. I should think you'd want to port SD to Wedge instead and then work on that... (Plus, you're the main author, so I don't think anyone would see it as a problem that you turn it into a non-forkable version for Wedge!)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 2nd, 2011, 10:20 AM
Like I said when I first got wrapped up in it back in March, I have... certain obligations to getting it finished with most of the features in 2.0. The features were going to be developed anyway, and whether it was done publicly by me with community involvement, or behind closed doors with much more limited testing... it was still going to be done by me whichever way. So I just chose to take the public route which benefits more people, and honestly, it benefits me too because it means it's tested far better.

Plus it never sat that well with me how I left last summer, with things in a state of disarray and unfinished, and there was an element of my pride involved.

After 2.0 is done, I'm basically dropping development again and getting back to Wedge.

I would also note that a not too small amount of those 160 commits were one line bug fixes and chasing my tail on things that break when I 'fixed' other things.


Tell you what though, if SMF want to fork it for SM, they're fucking welcome to it because I dare them to make changes to it. I swear parts of it work on voodoo and magic spells.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Lex on June 2nd, 2011, 11:01 AM
Quote from TE on June 1st, 2011, 03:56 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 1st, 2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, it's the OpenID bug, but as I just pointed out... that ain't new, nor even a surprise - it's been broken since at least RC3 (with the same reason)
This. The OpenID bug is known since RC3... IMHO a "communication problem" within the team, seems nothing has changed since I left for good reasons.
Actually, I believe it is again a "new" bug, a regression - It had been fixed in the past already...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 2nd, 2011, 11:22 AM
Yes, it's been 'fixed' in the past, but the point of regression for the issue that it seems to be was back in RC3, not recently.

SVN would confirm that, really. The last change to it was back in January, to fix version numbering, but the last non-versioning change was a typo fix back in November that manifested as a bug (separate bug, fixed just after RC4), then a change to it back in September for an optional OpenID 1.1 parameter.

Thing is, I think there's a problem where bugs are 'fixed' but no-one's retesting it to make *sure* it's fixed.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: becometa on June 3rd, 2011, 01:12 PM
Quote from Xarcell on June 2nd, 2011, 12:04 AM
GOD, how many times is SMF going they say the release is near and it never is?
Maybe they're basing on the famous Valve time(http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time) :eheh:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 03:42 PM
Is there an explanation about the bug somewhere, and a test case for reproducing it?

Not that I mind that they're postponing so much (I find it funny unlike most people :P), but seriously, if it's just ONE thing that's keeping them from releasing, I might as well fix it for them... Just so they can determine whether they actually release, or they postpone for another hypocritical reason.

Ah well, they wouldn't apply my fix anything...
The SMF dev team is not known for using fixes provided by anyone that isn't them.
http://dev.simplemachines.org/mantis/view.php?id=4516
It was fixed a year ago and is working perfectly well, as Wedge can testify! :lol:

My conclusion is that none of the SMF dev team knows a thing about JavaScript......... :whistle:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 3rd, 2011, 03:44 PM
Quote
Is there an explanation about the bug somewhere, and a test case for reproducing it?
Just try using OpenID, it will fail every time.

Oh, and just for shits and giggles, Antechinus has admitted the infamous IE8 jumping textbox bug is 'not a blocker', and that, again, people can reproduce it on sm.org but not on his test site...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 04:10 PM
Quote from becometa on June 3rd, 2011, 01:12 PM
Maybe they're basing on the famous Valve time(http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time) :eheh:
The big difference is I am desperate to play episode 3 but I don't really care when they release 2.0

Mmmmm wait a sec. The sooner they release 2.0 the sooner I can get a Wedge pre-alfa or something similar ain't it?

OK, forget what I said. Valve time and sm.org time ARE the same.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 04:27 PM
Quote from snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 04:10 PM
Mmmmm wait a sec. The sooner they release 2.0 the sooner I can get a Wedge pre-alfa or something similar ain't it?
Not really...
The sooner everyone will get screenshots and a demo site, yes. As for distributing an alpha, I don't want to tie our release to any SMF release dates. I've been working on it for 9 months -- the goal has always been to release this summer, although it was even starting to look unlikely that SMF2 would be out by then...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on June 3rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
When you say summer, which month are you talking about? Here summer's in december...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 04:41 PM
Well, sorry for being Northern Hemisphere-centric but I obviously meant Summer as in 'Summer Olympics' :P

Still, we can delay our first release for as long as 4 years and a half, we will still be seen as way faster than the SMF team... :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on June 3rd, 2011, 04:46 PM
I google it and I still don't have a clue of what you said... :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 04:54 PM
European summer.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on June 3rd, 2011, 04:55 PM
It's already summertime over here. :p
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
29 degrees Celsius here in Paris. Well 27 right now.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 3rd, 2011, 04:27 PM
Quote from snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 04:10 PM
Mmmmm wait a sec. The sooner they release 2.0 the sooner I can get a Wedge pre-alfa or something similar ain't it?
Not really...
The sooner everyone will get screenshots and a demo site, yes. As for distributing an alpha, I don't want to tie our release to any SMF release dates. I've been working on it for 9 months -- the goal has always been to release this summer, although it was even starting to look unlikely that SMF2 would be out by then...
Well, I suppose that if you are planning to give us a private alfa version it won't matter if 2.0 is out or not, but for a public release I suppose you would need to wait for the change of license.
Quote from DoctorMalboro on June 3rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
When you say summer, which month are you talking about? Here summer's in december...
Bloody Argie ...  :lol:
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
29 degrees Celsius here in Paris. Well 27 right now.
21 here (love the Mediterranean)  :eheh:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 3rd, 2011, 06:03 PM
Quote from snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
Well, I suppose that if you are planning to give us a private alfa version it won't matter if 2.0 is out or not,
I'd rather not distribute, even to Friends, an alpha until SMF is out.

I could make a common admin account at the demo website, though...
Quote
21 here (love the Mediterranean)  :eheh:
I'd be living in Italy or Greece, were I comfortable with speaking another language on a daily basis... But I'd have to learn them first. Even my Spanish is so rusty my dog probably speaks it better than me. :P
My dream is to live in New Caledonia. Looks beautiful, perfect weather (20-30° all year), and it's French. But it's far, far away...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: CJ Jackson on June 3rd, 2011, 07:02 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 3rd, 2011, 06:03 PM
My dream is to live in New Caledonia. Looks beautiful, perfect weather (20-30° all year), and it's French. But it's far, far away...
And it's near an earthquake plate, with a possible risk of tsunami, at least it's not as bad as New Zealand, which is on the plate.

I prefer having season, so I'm going for Canada, BC and it has the same problem as New Zealand.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Rustybarnacle on June 3rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
Hehe, I'm already in BC, Canada and its awesome.  :)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: snoopy-virtual on June 3rd, 2011, 07:38 PM
Quote
I'd rather not distribute, even to Friends, an alpha until SMF is out.
That was my point in the first place. The sooner they release 2.0 the sooner I get an alfa.  :eheh:
Quote
I could make a common admin account at the demo website, though...
A little risky if 2 or 3 of us are playing with it at the same time, straining the software to the limits trying to find if it would break somehow. No one would know for sure who broke it and when. (But a good idea if we just make sure that it's only one of us playing with it at a time). (And with a good security copy of the DB stored somewhere  :eheh: ).

After waiting for so long I don't mind to wait a little longer and do things properly. (It's a lot easier to find bugs when you have the code at the same time you are playing with the software).

And anyway my main concern just now (apart from looking for bugs) is the anti-spam security.

My theory just now is that (with all the new implements Arantor has done in the code) we won't need to change my anti-spam mods in SMF and convert them into Wedge plug-ins.

Maybe I will do that anyway some time but just as a practice exercise (to learn how to create Wedge plug-ins) but not as a real necessity. (Maybe good only for "too paranoid" kind of people).

Anyway, to see if this is true or not, the only way I have is to check it in a "real life" forum. That's it: to create a test Wedge forum and send to it hundreds of thousands of different spam-bots and hack-bots and see if any of them manage to get through. (And maybe create a few more logs to see exactly what they manage to do and what they don't).
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on June 3rd, 2011, 09:43 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
29 degrees Celsius here in Paris. Well 27 right now.
29°C MAX | 17°C MIN here (Rome). :)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: CJ Jackson on June 3rd, 2011, 11:01 PM
Quote from Rustybarnacle on June 3rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
Hehe, I'm already in BC, Canada and its awesome.  :)
Any idea of how many jobs going on there for Web Development?  :eheh:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Rustybarnacle on June 4th, 2011, 01:34 AM
I don't know of any off the top of my head so the head hunters are likely the way to go.  I got my job through Eagle but I'm in tech support, I don't know if they hunt web devs for sure but I think they do.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DirtRider on June 4th, 2011, 04:10 PM
Well the few forums I still look after running SMF will not be updated until such time that wedge is released. I am really done with SMF, just had enough all round with them 
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 01:39 PM
That's an attractive option, however we are currently running Yuku and I want to get off them as soon as SMF 2's gold is released and hope that a potential conversion to Wedge will be easy on the members.

As an aside, they would appear to be getting close again. Here's a 2 + (2/3 + 2/3 + 2/3) which may or not add up to 4.

In this thread(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=435981.0) by Powerbob, Illori says that the languages have to be updated to get rid of the "LLC" on the British (and other languages') screens.

And in this thread(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=432988.320) SiNaN says "...the only issue that was blocking the release was related to OpenID and it was dealt with yesterday"
So I assume  that SMF 2.0 is "ready", and...
I assume that as normal they will update the sm.org site with new updated proposed gold version (nupgv) a few days before releasing it - as per 'standard procedure', and...
I assume that this nupgv will have the language updates to which Illori refers.

Therefore when the LLC disappears from the British (and other languages') screens, the Gold version is only 2 or 3 days away  :eheh:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 01:45 PM
Language updates are actually irrelevant compared to the core release. If the OpenID issue was the only blocker, there is no reason for them to delay it now, unless they're going to fix more bugs - but they can't seem to make up their mind what they're going to fix, or not.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Aaron on June 5th, 2011, 02:20 PM
Assuming the dev that manages the release process actually has the time required. Believe me, it's not an easy process -- it's become more complicated over the years and no-one has taken the time to simplify/automate it -- last time I was involved (which, admittedly, is some time ago), it was a lot of manual work, so I don't envy the one in charge of it now.

I'll be glad when it's out at last.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 03:55 PM
All I'll say is, that's not what I was advised a bit back.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
"Language updates are actually irrelevant compared to the core release." - sure, but this one they'll want to include. As you say there's now no reason to delay the release so I guess the steps are 1. internal test of and around OpenID fix, 2. build the new version [1] including the languages update, 3. load it onto the sm.org site for a wider test, 4. release.

So my point above is that once we see the LLC disappear we'll know that steps 1-3 are complete.
 1. however long that takes
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 5th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Quote from Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
"Language updates are actually irrelevant compared to the core release." - sure, but this one they'll want to include. As you say there's now no reason to delay the release so I guess the steps are 1. internal test of and around OpenID fix, 2. build the new version [1] including the languages update, 3. load it onto the sm.org site for a wider test, 4. release.

So my point above is that once we see the LLC disappear we'll know that steps 1-3 are complete.
 1. however long that takes
That's good for another 3 years of R&D.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 04:32 PM
That relies on someone actually going through every language to fix it - or waiting for the language folks to do it. Neither seems like to be prompt to me.

@Road Rash - 3 years? I was thinking 1-2.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Masterd on June 5th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Quote from Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
including the languages update
Language updates are generated by Language Editor.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 5th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Quote from Masterd on June 5th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Quote from Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
including the languages update
Language updates are generated by Language Editor.
And how do you translate "We are all volunteers and it will be released when we get a round tuit" into 27 languages?
(http://presentoutlook.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/a-round-tuit.jpg)
 
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Quote from Masterd on June 5th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Quote from Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 04:29 PM
including the languages update
Language updates are generated by Language Editor.
Not sure what that means  :hmm:

From the Powerbob thread:
Illori: the translators are working on translating the final language files for 2.0 final. once they are done the files will be updated on this site.
Darkness_Black: I'm Translator portuguese_BR. In Portuguese_Brazilian I exited the LLC, but the forum still appears to me.
Illori: the language files on this site need to still be updated to match what is in the language editor.

So does that mean the translators update the language editor and then someone 'generates' the language files?

Could someone other than the translators go through the files? It's got to be easy to spot "LLC" in any language!

"That's good for another 3 years of R&D."  :mdr: (you are joking aren't you)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 04:51 PM
OK, let me explain.

The master language files in English are stored in SVN and pushed out to the Language Editor, which is a tool available to all translators, and the master files are used as a template from which the translated files are generated, and the LE generates the proper files for each language from master+changes, including dealing with UTF-8 conversions.

It's a bit complex to figure out how it works but in theory anyone with access should be able to go review the language files to see if that string's been changed. Hell, there's no reason why the team can't do this themselves, they even have a team for i18n issues, which is exactly what this is, and it doesn't need someone to be fluent in every language. It just has to be done.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 5th, 2011, 05:03 PM
The i18n team. Don't get me started on them ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Thanks you for the explanation Arantor.

"It just has to be done." - it would be easy to be cynical here, to say the whole SMF team should be devoting themselves to the task, but I had jobs to do today and all I've done is cook fudge, watch the MotoGP, cook roast potatoes and put my socks away, so who am I to comment?!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 05:28 PM
Quote from Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Thanks you for the explanation Arantor.

"It just has to be done." - it would be easy to be cynical here, to say the whole SMF team should be devoting themselves to the task, but I had jobs to do today and all I've done is cook fudge, watch the MotoGP, cook roast potatoes and put my socks away, so who am I to comment?!
The thing is, anyone with any code experience can do this part... so yes, it would be easy - and not entirely unjustified to be cynical here. I'm very good with cynicism.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Farjo on June 5th, 2011, 05:49 PM
I've never noticed  :whistle:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 05:51 PM
I'm also very good with sarcasm. ;)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: joey791 on June 5th, 2011, 06:21 PM
The only question I have about Wedge and forgive me but I have to ask but will support on releases be answered by it will be finished when its finished?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Considering that we're two guys doing this in our spare time and I've been away for much of the last 6 months on professional other stuff... yes, it will be done when we say it's done and not before.

We're not going to commit to arbitrary release dates that mean we rush stuff or let everyone down by missing the date we set. Been there, done that (both sides of the fence). However, releases will likely be faster than SMF.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 5th, 2011, 06:33 PM
On my side, I'll be striving to have a release cycle similar to Aeva Media's... i.e., totally chaotic, but closer to "early and often" than to "when we're done". (Because I'm usually done early and often.)

(Pete, are you meaning to say I did most of the work in the last 6 months? :lol:)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: joey791 on June 5th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Nao, I've never used Aeva Media, can you post a link to where it is available, thanks
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 07:55 PM
Quote
Pete, are you meaning to say I did most of the work in the last 6 months?
Haha, erm, yes.
Quote from joey791 on June 5th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Nao, I've never used Aeva Media, can you post a link to where it is available, thanks
http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=977

(Look at the author ;))
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 6th, 2011, 07:23 AM
Posted on smf org in CM section today;
Quote
Ok I have to ask, sorry but it's now 7 days since asteroid day ::)

If it really was just the one problem, there was a fix posted ages ago! or is there more we are not being told?  :angel:
I would have thought CM's deserve better?
Can't wait for the reaction  :niark:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 6th, 2011, 07:25 AM
Quote from Arantor on June 3rd, 2011, 03:44 PM
Quote
Is there an explanation about the bug somewhere, and a test case for reproducing it?
Just try using OpenID, it will fail every time.
I tried, and it just said the sig matching failed... Apparently SMF doesn't build the signature properly (it's probably missing a param or adding one too many.)
I haven't looked into it much, since IIRC SiNaN said this was fixed this week. Can you confirm they did? (i.e. could you sync us to the latest svn?)
Posted: June 6th, 2011, 07:24 AM
Quote from Powerbob on June 6th, 2011, 07:23 AM
Can't wait for the reaction  :niark:
You won't get any... They don't have the willingness to work on the release, that's all.
I'm not even blaming them for it. I'm blaming them for making promises originally, when they're so bad at fulfilling them...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 6th, 2011, 07:28 AM
Quote from Arantor on June 5th, 2011, 07:55 PM
Quote
Pete, are you meaning to say I did most of the work in the last 6 months?
Haha, erm, yes.
I'm framing this post and sticking it on my wall :niark:

But really, I haven't been doing much since early March... Still working fulltime on it, but mainly doing maintenance work, debugging and such... Not adding anything. Bit frustrating. But work that needs to be done.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 6th, 2011, 08:05 AM
Quote
You won't get any... They don't have the willingness to work on the release, that's all.
Yes you are right, I only got semantics from Thantos and Live :whistle:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on June 7th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I don't know the answer!  :ph34r:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 06:41 AM
Fun times.
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=432988.msg3065383#msg3065383
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 7th, 2011, 07:12 AM
Quote from live627 on June 7th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I don't know the answer!  :ph34r:
no problem mate  :cool:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on June 7th, 2011, 07:22 AM
Quote from Powerbob on June 7th, 2011, 07:12 AM
Quote from live627 on June 7th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I don't know the answer!  :ph34r:
no problem mate  :cool:
I was mostly replying to Thantos... he was jerkin yer chain :p
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on June 7th, 2011, 08:32 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 06:41 AM
Fun times.
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=432988.msg3065383#msg3065383
I thought he was the type of guy who keep himself clam but he exploded? I guess we grew tired of waiting, 5+ is a long time.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Quote from live627 on June 7th, 2011, 07:22 AM
I was mostly replying to Thantos...
From where?

@DS> He's not the 'clamshell' type as far as I know... He's always been vocal enough about his personal dislike of me, I believe. Still, he's spot on in that particular post :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Motoko isn't overly fond of me either, but what I will say is that he has an apparent dislike of drama whilst being more than dramatic himself most of the time.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on June 7th, 2011, 09:04 AM
Quote from Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Motoko isn't overly fond of me either, but what I will say is that he has an apparent dislike of drama whilst being more than dramatic himself most of the time.
Motoko dislike this.

:p
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 09:22 AM
Quote from Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Motoko isn't overly fond of me either, but what I will say is that he has an apparent dislike of drama whilst being more than dramatic himself most of the time.
You nailed him down :lol:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on June 7th, 2011, 09:40 AM
/mecoughs
I always thought Motoko was female.

Note to self - never assume anything
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:42 AM
Quote from billy2 on June 7th, 2011, 09:40 AM
/mecoughs

I always thought Motoko was female.

Note to self - never assume anything
I have to admit I was confused a bit too, probably less than he is. While I'm not going to state what I think, I do note his choice of mod creation is interesting given this context.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well he's just a fan of Motoko Kusanagi in GiTS is all...
He did confirm to me he was a guy many, many years ago.
I myself had fun back for a few weeks in 1996 with a female nickname. But after getting hit on one time too many, I called it quits and became Naoki :P

The one guy/girl I never got around to understanding whether he/she was a he/she is Jordan. :^^;:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on June 7th, 2011, 01:30 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
..............after getting hit on one time too many, I called it quits and became Naoki :P
Still sounds girly ;)
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
The one guy/girl I never got around to understanding whether he/she was a he/she is Jordan. :^^;:
Peter is still wondering to this day..........Peter Andre that is :)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 01:49 PM
Naoki not Naomi.
Means healing tree.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Jntg4 on June 7th, 2011, 02:18 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:42 AM
Quote from billy2 on June 7th, 2011, 09:40 AM
/mecoughs

I always thought Motoko was female.

Note to self - never assume anything
I have to admit I was confused a bit too, probably less than he is. While I'm not going to state what I think, I do note his choice of mod creation is interesting given this context.http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=2152
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 02:22 PM
Yes, that's the one. It just seems a little incongruous...
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on June 7th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Quote from Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Motoko isn't overly fond of me either, but what I will say is that he has an apparent dislike of drama whilst being more than dramatic himself most of the time.
Didn't believe you until I saw this: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=432988.msg3065383#msg3065383
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 03:13 PM
Look through his posts, you'll see more than a few veiled insults like that posing as seemingly innocent comments.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on June 7th, 2011, 03:57 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Quote from live627 on June 7th, 2011, 07:22 AM
I was mostly replying to Thantos...
From where?
Hidden charter boards
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Aaron on June 7th, 2011, 06:34 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well he's just a fan of Motoko Kusanagi in GiTS is all...
I always thought he adopted it from Motoko Aoyama from Love Hina? Might be misreading his nick, though.
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
The one guy/girl I never got around to understanding whether he/she was a he/she is Jordan. :^^;:
As in Eliana Tamerin? She's a girl, afaik.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Nao on June 7th, 2011, 06:45 PM
Quote from Aaron on June 7th, 2011, 06:34 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well he's just a fan of Motoko Kusanagi in GiTS is all...
I always thought he adopted it from Motoko Aoyama from Love Hina? Might be misreading his nick, though.
Oh yes, you're right. I used to *think* it was Motoko Kusanagi from his nickname "Motoko-chan", but now that he's changed to using the kanji for Aoyama Motoko, it's clear it wasn't her...

(I'm just not familiar enough with Love Hina so it didn't stick with me. I'm not into harem anime. Love triangles are already crowded enough... I'd rather watch Orange Road or Macross for that.)
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
As in Eliana Tamerin? She's a girl, afaik.
Yes, as in Eliana Tamerin.
I always thought she was a girl, but then she started signing 'Jordan'... And since it's a male name AFAIK... (Well it could be bi-gender, like Claude or Dominique in France.)

Then again, I used to mistake her for Jade, too... :lol:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: live627 on June 7th, 2011, 07:13 PM
One of my friends has a daughter named Dominique. It probably isn't limited to France
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 7th, 2011, 07:16 PM
Eliana does list her gender as female... I know that here it's both.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Aaron on June 7th, 2011, 08:40 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 06:45 PM
Oh yes, you're right. I used to *think* it was Motoko Kusanagi from his nickname "Motoko-chan", but now that he's changed to using the kanji for Aoyama Motoko, it's clear it wasn't her...
Ah, glad that wasn't just me, then! :)
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 06:45 PM
(I'm just not familiar enough with Love Hina so it didn't stick with me. I'm not into harem anime. Love triangles are already crowded enough... I'd rather watch Orange Road or Macross for that.)
Haha, it's not generally my cup of tea either, but I was advised Love Hina was "one of those must-read manga" and since it was "relatively mild harem", I read it. Admittedly I liked it most of the time, too. Not one of my favourites(http://myanimelist.net/animelist/TimeVortex&show=0&order=4), though. ;)

And yeah, Jordan is used for both genders.

ETA: this is going off-topic, isn't it? Feels like a proper pub already. :P
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dr. Deejay on June 7th, 2011, 08:42 PM
So you're a K-on fan too? :D One of my classmates told me about it and it's really cool. :)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Aaron on June 7th, 2011, 08:44 PM
Saw the series as it aired. It was alright, I suppose, but not the kind of series you'll hear me praising or anything. Certainly wouldn't call myself a fan.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Jntg4 on June 7th, 2011, 10:35 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 06:45 PM
Quote from Aaron on June 7th, 2011, 06:34 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well he's just a fan of Motoko Kusanagi in GiTS is all...
I always thought he adopted it from Motoko Aoyama from Love Hina? Might be misreading his nick, though.
Oh yes, you're right. I used to *think* it was Motoko Kusanagi from his nickname "Motoko-chan", but now that he's changed to using the kanji for Aoyama Motoko, it's clear it wasn't her...

(I'm just not familiar enough with Love Hina so it didn't stick with me. I'm not into harem anime. Love triangles are already crowded enough... I'd rather watch Orange Road or Macross for that.)
Quote from Nao/Gilles on June 7th, 2011, 10:43 AM
As in Eliana Tamerin? She's a girl, afaik.
Yes, as in Eliana Tamerin.
I always thought she was a girl, but then she started signing 'Jordan'... And since it's a male name AFAIK... (Well it could be bi-gender, like Claude or Dominique in France.)

Then again, I used to mistake her for Jade, too... :lol:
Jordan is a male and female name.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Powerbob on June 10th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Oh well to get back on topic :whistle:

Asteroid day +10 and still no release ::)
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on June 10th, 2011, 04:39 PM
Quote from Powerbob on June 10th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Oh well to get back on topic :whistle:

Asteroid day +10 and still no release ::)
Everybody lies.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: DoctorMalboro on June 10th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Except politicians... :lol:
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 10th, 2011, 06:26 PM
News release from NASA -

A new satelight was launched May 31,2011 dubbed SMF. NASA reported a mechanical failure that sent the satelight hurtling towards Jupiter. Hubble telescope was able to capture pictures of a spectacular crash in space as SMF became firmly wedged into Uranus.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: RvG on June 10th, 2011, 06:29 PM
Do you think you guys you need to help SMF so it will be released or same will be useless.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Dismal Shadow on June 10th, 2011, 06:32 PM
No.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: billy2 on June 10th, 2011, 06:47 PM
Quote from Road Rash on June 10th, 2011, 06:26 PM
[snip]..........SMF became firmly wedged into Uranus.
rr - U getting grief for using Wedge in your sig?
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on June 10th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Nope. It's been there forever.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Arantor on June 10th, 2011, 07:59 PM
I'd offer to help if it would make a difference, but I doubt their pride would help.

There is one current blocker. I don't think it's even on the tracker.
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: Drunken Clam on June 10th, 2011, 09:53 PM
Quote from Powerbob on June 10th, 2011, 01:22 PM
Oh well to get back on topic :whistle:

Asteroid day +10 and still no release ::)
:eheh: I like that!
Posted: June 10th, 2011, 09:52 PM
Quote from Road Rash on June 10th, 2011, 06:26 PM
News release from NASA -

A new satelight was launched May 31,2011 dubbed SMF. NASA reported a mechanical failure that sent the satelight hurtling towards Jupiter. Hubble telescope was able to capture pictures of a spectacular crash in space as SMF became firmly wedged into Uranus.
:eheh: I like that too!

What a bunch of wankers they are!
Title: Re: SMF 2.0 final THIS MONTH?
Post by: becometa on June 11th, 2011, 10:46 PM
2.0 released, it's there  :ph34r: