Wedge

Public area => Off-topic => The Pub => Other software => Topic started by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 02:24 AM

Title: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 02:24 AM
Apparently, there's a rule that no links to other forum packages - the example given was MyBB - in signatures and would I remove the Wedge image from my sm.org sig.

I have just replied asking whether it's appropriate for team members to be linking to phpBB forums and will await the reply with interest.


EDIT: Did I mention that I'd never heard of this rule before now?

EDIT 2: Wait until I point out a few things of interest, such as the fact that it violates their Core Values. This is going to be hilarious.

:edit: 3 by Nao: renamed topic from "So, I've been asked..." to something that's clearly more in line with the contents.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Dismal Shadow on March 31st, 2011, 03:41 AM
Not this crap again. :(
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on March 31st, 2011, 03:42 AM
i must ask, why would a so called nonprofit freeware supplier give a crap. lol
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Xarcell on March 31st, 2011, 05:20 AM
Quote from Dismal Shadow on March 31st, 2011, 03:41 AM
Not this crap again. :(
+1
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on March 31st, 2011, 07:37 AM
Quote from Dismal Shadow on March 31st, 2011, 03:41 AM
Not this crap again. :(
+2

Call 'em out on it, and mention that a certain someone else has the logo in their sig too :whistle:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: ccbtimewiz on March 31st, 2011, 08:35 AM
Well they did mass ban a bunch of people including some team members when Jaelta was being made, so who knows what will happen next...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 09:34 AM
I did call 'em out on it, waiting for a follow-up reply. Seems that the current management aren't aware that one of the 'core devs' links to a phpBB forum in their signature, which hardly seems like an appropriate behaviour, and if anything worse than I'm doing.

Yes, I'm well aware of the SMF-Friends saga, only too acutely. Which is why I removed it in the first instance and then challenged it, so that they have absolutely no grounds to claim that I'm being unreasonable about it.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Masterd on March 31st, 2011, 10:33 AM
I can't belive that they are actually doing this.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 10:34 AM
I can, I fully expected it. They, however, were not expecting me to argue against it.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Masterd on March 31st, 2011, 10:36 AM
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 10:34 AM
They, however, were not expecting me to argue against it.
Well, I expected that.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 10:39 AM
Oh, so did I - which is why I came prepared :D
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Masterd on March 31st, 2011, 10:41 AM
Good for you! :D
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 11:27 AM
We knew it would happen...
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 02:24 AM
Apparently, there's a rule that no links to other forum packages - the example given was MyBB - in signatures and would I remove the Wedge image from my sm.org sig.
Why? Is it too ugly for them? :P

Who asked you to remove it?

Anyway...
- As mentioned above, SMF is freeware, so why would they care.
- They're going BSD, so there should be no ego issues.
- We haven't launched a big campaign on their boards. They can't accuse us of being spammers.
- Every single link that has Wedge.org in it is justified -- by the 44.000 times Pete helped someone selflessly on THEIR boards, doing support for THEM.
- They can't say anything about Wedge (because it'll be legal once it's released), or the Wedge.org website (because it's perfectly in line with everything.)
- Last time they banned people for posting links for smf-friends, let's just say that didn't help their popularity at all, and they ended up restoring the accounts. Do they want to go through that AGAIN?

And on a philosophical level --- they should take responsibility for Wedge. They helped create it, they can't hide it. If they had behaved properly with Pete and I last year, we wouldn't have felt compelled to take the project in our own hands. We would be SMF team leaders at this point and taking the right decisions for the software. But because this didn't happen, this is now happening in Wedge. They could avoid this by simply going back in time, breaking the space-time continuum and creating a "what if?" alternative universe where they didn't piss everyone off by acting like jerks with people who actually cared about the software more than they did.

Because time travel is not available in our current dimension (unless I missed its invention during the time we worked on Wedge), all they can do now is take responsibility. That means, accepting that Wedge is here to stay, and not just a passing fad in Nao's and Arantor's minds. We've been in the SMF community for many years, extremely active, and we've done a great job at helping SMF's reputation and success (Pete with SimpleDesk and his incredible amount of support, me with Aeva and SMG / Aeva Media). They should know better: when we have something in mind, we won't rest until it's done. We told them back in August 2010 that we started working on a fork. We reminded them in November that we were still actively working on it. We waited for another 5 months before going public. I don't think anyone in the SMF team could possibly find a *believable* way of complaining about any of our actions. They put themselves into this situation. They can fight back by working really hard on SMF 3.0 and releasing it real soon. Any other way of fighting back would be unfair and disloyal, and would be seen as such by the community.

We're not here to kill SMF. On the contrary, we're here to prevent the SMF team from killing the actual fantastic software that they're sleeping on.
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I have just replied asking whether it's appropriate for team members to be linking to phpBB forums and will await the reply with interest.
Feel free to reuse any of my arguments.
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EDIT: Did I mention that I'd never heard of this rule before now?
"The librarian was, ex officio, a member of the college council. No-one had been able to find any rule about orang-utans being barred, although they had surreptiously looked very hard for one." (Discworld)

I'm sure that's not because they just came up with it! I mean, they knew about Wedge for so long, they probably devised a rule against it in the meantime! They just need to find WHERE they discussed it publicly! (Or quietly move their discussion to the public area! Or edit an old post to add this rule and hide the edit date! I'm too kind, I shouldn't be helping them.)

"If you ignore the rules people will, half the time, quietly rewrite them so that they don't apply to you." (Discworld)

Okay, I'm reading too much Pratchett these days...
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EDIT 2: Wait until I point out a few things of interest, such as the fact that it violates their Core Values. This is going to be hilarious.
Who's got the pop-corn?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Why? Is it too ugly for them?
Apparently they do not allow links to competitors. But like I said, first time I heard this rule.
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Who asked you to remove it?
Oldiesmann.
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Who's got the pop-corn?
I got lots of that packet heat-in-the-microwave popcorn at the ready so it'll be juuuuust right when it's done.


I don't have a problem with rules that are reasonable and fairly enforced. This seems to me to be neither, but they're going to have to do the work to justify it.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 11:51 AM
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Why? Is it too ugly for them?
Apparently they do not allow links to competitors.
We're not competitors... We use SMF as our platform (look at the footer here), we discuss SMF and we certainly won't try to "steal" market shares. (More users = more support requests... And since we'd rather do without monetizing anything, the less users the better for me.)

Also, can we be competitors when we have nothing to offer right now except for dreams...?
What they don't like, is that we're putting our fingers where it hurts: that they have not done much in the time since we left the team.
I'm not blaming them for not working as much as we do -- after all, working on it fulltime was *my* decision and not a sacrifice many people can affort to make. But heck! They have so little to fix before they can go gold!
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Who asked you to remove it?
Oldiesmann.
I'm afraid I only remember him by name. Is he friendly and sensible, or not?
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I got lots of that packet heat-in-the-microwave popcorn at the ready so it'll be juuuuust right when it's done.
Planning ahead of time is one of our mutual qualities!
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I don't have a problem with rules that are reasonable and fairly enforced. This seems to me to be neither, but they're going to have to do the work to justify it.
So, let's say they pass their "law"... What now? Do they also forbid competitor links inside posts? If they don't, then I'm sure you'll find a good reason to post a link to Wedge in every single of your replies :P

Trying to stick their heads in the sand is no solution to THEIR problems. (I know it's a good solution to my real life problems but let's not change subject :niark:)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Also, can we be competitors when we have nothing to offer right now except for dreams...?
What they don't like, is that we're putting our fingers where it hurts: that they have not done much in the time since we left the team.
Yup.
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I'm afraid I only remember him by name. Is he friendly and sensible, or not?
Sensible, and not easily angered.
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So, let's say they pass their "law"... What now? Do they also forbid competitor links inside posts? If they don't, then I'm sure you'll find a good reason to post a link to Wedge in every single of your replies
I already got a warning for that before with a threat for every one of my posts to be moderated... it's almost worth it actually, to see how long it takes before they either get fed up with moderating my posts (I swear I can keep up posting far more than they can keep up with approving/editing/whatever) and turn it off, or just ban me.
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Trying to stick their heads in the sand is no solution to THEIR problems.
I know that. That's why I linked the bug report I did in the other board for now; it's evidence that they're not going to spend any time actually fixing the bug and more on making the circumstances go away.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 12:03 PM
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 11:56 AM
I already got a warning for that before with a threat for every one of my posts to be moderated... it's almost worth it actually, to see how long it takes before they either get fed up with moderating my posts (I swear I can keep up posting far more than they can keep up with approving/editing/whatever) and turn it off, or just ban me.
It would take them a LOT of balls to actually justify banning you altogether!
I mean, they got away with post-banning me only because I decided to call it quits at the same time, and I can be a PITA at times indeed. But you? People would *notice* there's a trick :P

Oh, BTW, I just attempted a search on "Wedge" at sm.org and found zero hits... They can't seriously say we're spamming them!!
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 12:40 PM
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It would take them a LOT of balls to actually justify banning you altogether!
Oh, I think I can nudge them in that direction if it was warranted, and it wouldn't even be hard (I've suggested how to do it before ;))

I was pushing it back in December where I was mentioning it a lot, but not by name.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 02:57 PM
Banning Arantor would be a suicide for support and the coding section :P
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Artur on March 31st, 2011, 02:59 PM
Quote from DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 02:57 PM
Banning Arantor would be a suicide for support and the coding section :P
They wouldn't get any new bug reports anymore. And we already saw, that they even made a new RC because of Arantor posting a more or less serious bug.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 03:01 PM
Actually, I have seen more Nao reports lately...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Artur on March 31st, 2011, 03:04 PM
Quote from DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 03:01 PM
Actually, I have seen more Nao reports lately...
Really? Well, but you know what I'm referring to .... or?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 03:08 PM
There's another security related matter from in the tracker in fact.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 03:26 PM
Quote from DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 03:01 PM
Actually, I have seen more Nao reports lately...
I don't see what you mean. They removed my rights to post in the bug tracker in early November, when they discovered I had moved the SMF copyright link (at noisen.com) from the footer to the Credits page. Which I had done precisely because they'd perm-post-banned me...
It's this silly little game of domination, you know. They liked having me posting bug reports (even long after they perm-banned me), but when they saw I didn't respect them the way they thought they deserved, they deprived themselves from that help. Not that I care... Instead of reporting bugs and fixing them in Wedge at the same time, I just simply fixed them in Wedge.

Seriously, we're not advertising this fact, but SMF still has dozen of unreported bugs that are fixed in Wedge. When it comes to security issues, we try to report them (through Pete), but they don't even care about those...

It's a downward spiral.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 03:59 PM
I did report one bug that irritated me recently in SMF itself, but only since I'd long since already fixed in it Wedge anyway (and did so better than how I think they'll fix it) but no-one's looking over the bug reports, no-one's trying to reproduce them, though to be fair, most of what's in bug reports should have been posted to the support boards anyway.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 04:48 PM
I think I was doing something like 75% of the beta testing work all by myself for the couple of years I was a tester.
If there's something they're bad at, it's... well, simple math.

So, in conclusion, SMF is dead, and that's why they're preventing you from putting a link to its successor in your signature. I can't help but think it's a bit pathetic. I hope they prove me wrong...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: TE on March 31st, 2011, 06:09 PM
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 02:24 AM
I have just replied asking whether it's appropriate for team members to be linking to phpBB forums and will await the reply with interest.
haha, [SiNaN]'s signature, right?

I'll change my avatar on SM.org soon and use the wedge version instead, I'm really interested in their responce  ;)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 06:21 PM
Yup, SiNaN's.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 06:58 PM
Quote from TE on March 31st, 2011, 06:09 PM
I'll change my avatar on SM.org soon and use the wedge version instead,
That's the spirit! (Plus, I'm jealous of your avatar... :P)
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I'm really interested in their responce  ;)
It doesn't link here so I guess they won't say a thing...

Anyway, whether Pete gets banned or not or whatever -- if everyone here starts putting a link to Wedge in their signature, what will they do? Mass bans, like in January?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 07:25 PM
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Anyway, whether Pete gets banned or not or whatever -- if everyone here starts putting a link to Wedge in their signature, what will they do? Mass bans, like in January?
It's entirely possible, but unlikely.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: TE on March 31st, 2011, 08:21 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on March 31st, 2011, 06:58 PM
Plus, I'm jealous of your avatar... :P
hehe ;) the original picture(http://www.eurich.de/images/london91-te2_f.jpg) was taken in 1991 and the box in front of my face is a box of gauloises  :P . Meanwhile my hair is short but I'm still a "freak" :lol:
Quote from Arantor
EDIT: Did I mention that I'd never heard of this rule before now?
+1, maybe JBlaze (he's still on the team) can quote the related topice / rule?
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 07:25 PM
It's entirely possible, but unlikely.
I doubt they'll start a mass-ban again. We could release some small mods and/or themes with the wedge-link in the footer :D. AFAIK there is no rule about competitor links in mods / themes but they'll probably never approve these.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 08:23 PM
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+1, maybe JBlaze (he's still on the team) can quote the related topice / rule?
Or Runic if I ask him now that he's back on the team...
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We could release some small mods and/or themes with the wedge-link in the footer
That's genius. Actually genius. And there's no reason why they can't approve those, given that links to paid services are available through them...
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AFAIK there is no rule about competitor links in mods / themes but they'll probably never approve these.
There isn't on the official guidelines, no.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 08:27 PM
Maybe I could put the link in the AeMe footer.......

Okay, I'll just shut up :P

Okay, I could simply announce the release of Wedge in the AeMe admin area through the "latest news" box... And they can't do anything about it, it's already installed on 10k forums. That's a Trojan horse if I say so myself! :niark:

TE, I thought your picture was Snape from HP! :^^;:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Gary on March 31st, 2011, 09:15 PM
That's just dumb. Looks like you've got them running scared.

But a question Pete, that after Oldies asked you to remove the image, did they just edit your profile and take it out anyway without your consent so much like they did with the begging for money links in sigs during the MOTM event. (I refused to beg for money so Thantos edited my profile and placed it in without my consent conveniently after I signed off for the night, I was swift to remove it again as soon as I signed back on)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 09:40 PM
No, I removed it, followed by my message in reply. That way they can't accuse me of refusing to comply with a request and they can't accuse me of being uncooperative, i.e. the moral ground is mine.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on March 31st, 2011, 09:50 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on March 31st, 2011, 08:27 PM
Okay, I could simply announce the release of Wedge in the AeMe admin area through the "latest news" box... And they can't do anything about it, it's already installed on 10k forums. That's a Trojan horse if I say so myself! :niark:
It's soooo evil and so..... tempting! ahahah :lol:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Masterd on March 31st, 2011, 09:59 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on March 31st, 2011, 08:27 PM
Okay, I could simply announce the release of Wedge in the AeMe admin area through the "latest news" box... And they can't do anything about it, it's already installed on 10k forums. That's a Trojan horse if I say so myself! :niark:
It's a good idea. :niark:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: ccbtimewiz on March 31st, 2011, 10:02 PM
Quote from Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 09:40 PM
No, I removed it, followed by my message in reply. That way they can't accuse me of refusing to comply with a request and they can't accuse me of being uncooperative, i.e. the moral ground is mine.
But wouldn't that mean you're agreeing with them considering you cooperated?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Gary on March 31st, 2011, 10:21 PM
I wouldn't have thought so, it's more of a "just to keep them quiet for now" kind of thing to me.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on March 31st, 2011, 10:23 PM
No, it doesn't mean that at all, Chris. I really don't want to argue with you, I have taken the action I deem appropriate for the situation.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on March 31st, 2011, 11:02 PM
You could also do that in the Aeva and SimpleDesk... it's impossible not to pissed them off...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: and on March 31st, 2011, 11:37 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on March 31st, 2011, 08:27 PM
Maybe I could put the link in the AeMe footer.......

Okay, I'll just shut up :P

Okay, I could simply announce the release of Wedge in the AeMe admin area through the "latest news" box... And they can't do anything about it, it's already installed on 10k forums. That's a Trojan horse if I say so myself! :niark:
good idea
and you have every right to
aeva will become part of the wedge? here and announce this
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on March 31st, 2011, 11:40 PM
Yes, AeMe will be part of Wedge. I said it countless times over at AeMe's official site actually. I said I'd put an end to AeMe for SMF because I was focusing on porting it to Wedge, where it will live a new life and be used in more places than just media galleries. (I know that Pete is quite eager for me to finish the job eheh. Hopefully I'll take my chances and do it next week. I just finished committing my new default theme.)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 01:54 PM
So, Pete... What's up with the SMF team? Did they write back or do they not care about your request?

Has anyone else received complaints?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 1st, 2011, 03:13 PM
i think a direct advertisement to wedge can be considered rude, but an indirect link to the software from a developers point of view and an honorable mention of where the new software come from might alleviate said issues.

wedge, smf forum software spinoff

im not so sure the mention of wedge is the issue, its the 45000 mentions of something else that isnt smf and no honorable mention of where it originally came from.

give them credit where it is due, but state that it is a different alternative for those that wish it. dont take away from them, just add to yourself. and to be honest, carrying smf with you in the beginning will help you more than it will hurt.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 03:42 PM
Problem is, as I said: *they* put themselves into that situation. *They* showed us the door. *They* didn't like what we had to said, and finally *they* established that they'd go BSD and thus allow forks to be legal.

There is *no* logical explanation to them suddenly telling Pete that he isn't allowed to have a link to *his* website in his signature. If they don't want him to have the power to link to his website, maybe they shouldn't have let him post 44.444 times on their forum. They were too happy to get the free tech support from a coding genius. No one ever put as much effort as Pete did into SMF, and yet they're inventing new rules to benefit THEMSELVES and only themselves.

Seriously, that's exactly what I would have expected from the SMF team -- but I was hoping for a change in behavior because of the recent team changes. New team, same old shit.
Guys, if you want to compete, do it with WORK, not with your existing power.

Ever heard of Laurent Gbagbo these days on the news? If not, then google him...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 1st, 2011, 04:16 PM
i agree 100% with what you are saying, but i do think that if done with a particular tact, that it can be done successfully.

arantor and i had a discussion about smf4mobile that was kind of similar to this, hell know what i mean.

they know the fork and the developers behind it can and will given time take over as number one. the reason is that they are lazy and riding on the already found success of smf, and yall are screwing with their free ride. they feel that yall are trying as "newcomers" (i know this is BS but for the sake of argument) snatch it from them without earning it.

they know yall are the reason that smf 2.0 is what it is, they just wanted the credit for it. well let them have all the credit they want. keep your enemies closer. keep doing exactly what you have been, but give smf the credit due, regardless of whether or not yall are the ones that earned them that credit.

your not better cause you work harder then they do, your better cause you are better.

make a new logo especially for yalls posts on sm.org. make it represent where the software originally came from. make it a partnership of sorts. include them in your endevours for at least for now on sm.org. add the honorable mention and bring them into the light with wedge.

this will do 2 things:
-- alleviate the tension and make them feel that your not a direct competitor, rather than an equal alternative that still uses smfs basic core, but just with differences that creates an individual product.
-- carrying their name with you in the beginning brings validity to wedge on the world stage. smf is established. wedge is not. they dont have to make their license where you can have wedge. they still have the power to screw you into next week. to make wedge what you want it to be, you going to have to put up with them, and appease them.

make a logo that includes them in it, and makes wedge a part of the bigger whole. that with some fancy words will make it where you can have your logo 100k strong on sm.org. but you cant slap them in the face. they will just squash you and force you to write your own software from the ground up. which it would be better to do that anyway, but....

dont fight them, allow them to do whatever they wish to do. when the time is right, yall will just simply take first place, cause of their lack of work ethic.

HAIL WEDGE. :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 05:35 PM
Quote from texasman1979 on April 1st, 2011, 04:16 PM
they know the fork and the developers behind it can and will given time take over as number one. the reason is that they are lazy and riding on the already found success of smf, and yall are screwing with their free ride. they feel that yall are trying as "newcomers" (i know this is BS but for the sake of argument) snatch it from them without earning it.
I don't think they do...
I've been in the SMF community for 5 years now, started doing community work in early 2008, and got thrown out in mid-2010 because I was fighting with vbLamer45 and he's under protection (I don't know why, but whatever.) They knew I was right about him, but they chose to kick me out instead of him -- because of the protection, and possibly because for the first time, someone was standing up to him and actually had the power and listeners to let the truth be known.
It's always been a battle of power. I just didn't realize it at the time. I re-read many PMs and discussions at the time, between the team and I, and it's quite clear that they knew they couldn't afford to lose me, one of their top contributors, and the reason why they were afraid of letting me into the team was that I was kind of a leader guy. I wouldn't have settled on a lowly position. And they probably knew that I was skilled enough to run the team and the development process at the same time. Thus, they knew that by kicking me out, either I would just drop SMF altogether and waste my time on something else, or, if I was to stay in the SMF community, I *would* go ahead and compete with them.
Heck, it doesn't take a genius to understand the politics behind all of this.
What matters here, is that they've had as much time as I had to understand said politics, and understand that they should take responsibility for their actions.
And they're doing exactly the same now as they did a year ago! You'd think they LEARNED wouldn't you...?
No, they haven't.

January 2010 split: they kicked out everyone who didn't agree with the power struggles. Ex-team went ahead and made their own forum. SMF bans everyone linking to the other forum. Ex-team builds new project, because SMF doesn't want to go BSD. SMF team realizes they're wrong, changes mind, announces BSD switch, ex-team leaves new project, goes back to fold. End of story.

August 2010: they kicked me out for challenging vbLamer45 in public. Arantor was also a victim of SMF's internal struggles at the time. We went ahead and started our own project. SMF team is made aware of it soon after, no word from them. I'm sure they thought we wouldn't last, like Jaelta... Wrong.

November 2010: we're still on it. Now, SMF team attacks me on technicalities. They remove my beta tester rights (which I was still using to make bug reports!), and my SMF Friend status (because for them, current politics trump overall recognition.) I try to make a compromise for them, after which they keep saying it's too late. So I cancel my compromise, and they threaten to sue (!!!). I say screw you. End of story. SMF loses their most active beta tester ever (400 reports or so), but I'm sure they'll see this as a victory...

March 2011: we go public. Arantor adds link in his signature. SMF team invents new rule to prevent him from doing it.

Who wants to bet they'll win this time? Who thinks they've learned their lessons and they'll come to their senses? Who thinks they'll finally acknowledge that their team is totally screwed up and they're making bad decision after bad decision?

Seriously, I don't even know why Pete keeps posting over there... They don't deserve a hundredth of the efforts he's making for SMF.
Quote
they know yall are the reason that smf 2.0 is what it is, they just wanted the credit for it.
Well I only on the actual source code for 2 months so I'm only responsible for parts of RC4's fixes, I'm not saying the other devs are bad, I'm just saying the men who turned SMF into fantastic software are long gone -- because of the politics. Because of the current team! So, no, we're not responsible for SMF2, we're however responsible for part of its success (me because of Aeva/SMG and Pete because of so many things I wouldn't know where to start.) As for taking our credit away... I don't know, I don't think the SMF community is that dumb.
Quote
your not better cause you work harder then they do, your better cause you are better.
I'm more of a guy who judges people by their actions, not their karma.
Quote
make a new logo especially for yalls posts on sm.org. make it represent where the software originally came from. make it a partnership of sorts.
A partnership? What do you want us to partner for? Especially with them? What do we owe them? We owe the current team absolutely nothing. They owe us. That's why they should acknowledge Wedge, instead of trying to hide it. They should declare they'll be looking forward to the competition. But they don't have the developers to follow suit. So their shortsightedness is currently losing them. They're making decisions for the near future, not for the far future. They don't know what they'll put into SMF3 because they all know they'll be gone before it even goes in beta.

....

....Well, all in all, that's what the SMF team management inspires me. Nothing but ill decisions and general lousiness.
Quote
-- alleviate the tension and make them feel that your not a direct competitor,
We tried that... Until the November backlash.
Quote
-- carrying their name with you in the beginning brings validity to wedge on the world stage. smf is established. wedge is not.
SMF is no longer established. It's dying, remember? More people are leaving the software than new people are joining it. It may also be true for other forum packages, I don't know, but the stats speak for themselves at sm.org.
And I don't want to build our software's reputation on SMF. Not on the *current* SMF.
(Besides, you know it's a public area and they're certainly reading all of this, right? Do you think they'd like you suggesting we "use" them for our benefit? ::))
Quote
they dont have to make their license where you can have wedge. they still have the power to screw you into next week. to make wedge what you want it to be, you going to have to put up with them, and appease them.
No, they have to, for several reasons we detailed elsewhere. In short: (1) they promised the community, and the community is tired of being screwed with. (2) SMF's ex-devs never signed any proper contracts and said they would relinquish the rights to their code ONLY if SMF went BSD... It's another struggle, but one that has been made public. So they HAVE to go BSD or they can't release SMF2 Gold *at all*. It's not a present they're giving us... It's the only way SMF can survive. (And it will survive -- through its forks, not through the core software.)
Quote
make a logo that includes them in it, and makes wedge a part of the bigger whole. that with some fancy words will make it where you can have your logo 100k strong on sm.org. but you cant slap them in the face. they will just squash you and force you to write your own software from the ground up. which it would be better to do that anyway, but....
When did putting a "Wedge. Simple math, really" logo amount to slapping someone in the face?

Do you realize that my initial slogan was "SMF for real men"? Now I would have understood they got upset at this slogan (which I came up with for fun, nothing else). But "Simple math"? Uh...
Quote
dont fight them, allow them to do whatever they wish to do. when the time is right, yall will just simply take first place, cause of their lack of work ethic.
Just by making these internal struggles public, we're already fighting them. Anyone at Wedge.org is now aware that SMF is not playing it nice. They've been presented with proof. That alone is enough for me.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 1st, 2011, 06:02 PM
always remember tho, spite begets spite. forget about anger, roll with the punches. continue forward. dont think about smf, think about wedge.

love thy neighbor as thyself, no matter how stupid they are. :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 07:22 PM
Quote from texasman1979 on April 1st, 2011, 06:02 PM
always remember tho, spite begets spite. forget about anger, roll with the punches. continue forward. dont think about smf, think about wedge.
That's exactly why we kept so quiet about Wedge for 7 months... We spent the time working on it. I didn't create an alternative account or anything at sm.org, I simply stopped caring about it, and was focusing on Wedge.
I know that confronting an audience has never been my forte, and it tends to degenerate quickly into flame wars. This is one of the reasons why we weren't sure whether to go public or not. Especially because we knew that most of the fights tend to start as soon as something changes. i.e. in this case, going public would bring its lot, and it would calm down afterwards. So I'm discussing the things that are in the air, establishing my position, and hopefully people won't come again with the same complaints in the future.

tl:dr
Flame wars are unavoidable here, in this day of going public. What matters is that it settles soon. But, of course, the SMF team had to plunge right into it... -_-
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 1st, 2011, 07:55 PM
Let me add one point.

We kept Wedge quiet because Kindred asked us to. And we did. We sat on it for months. Then I made (quite) a few remarks about it in December and was 'asked' to knock it off. So I did. Then on the day we make the website publicly accessible I put a signature link in.

Oldiesmann has not replied to me, but I'll give it a little longer then nudge him about it. The rule in and of itself isn't inappropriate, but it has to be applied equally.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 07:58 PM
Oldies was last seen online about 3 hours ago... Meaning he definitely read your PM. And he's just sitting on it, like you say... :-/
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Dismal Shadow on April 1st, 2011, 09:20 PM
So i've been asked to remove the sig from Kinderd...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 1st, 2011, 09:21 PM
Not really a surprise. But they haven't answered my complaint about Sinan linking to a non SMF forum in his signature.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: ['Daniel'] on April 1st, 2011, 09:25 PM
I was just asked to do the same by Kindred, and I'm replying to him that Sinan has one to phpBB...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on April 1st, 2011, 09:28 PM
Oldies asked me last night...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: JBlaze on April 1st, 2011, 09:40 PM
There's a big difference between linking to a site that *uses* a certain software and linking to the home site of the other software. I was asked way back when to remove links I had linking to my IPB stuff.

I see nothing wrong in asking you to remove the links since it's advertising the competition's product, not just a personal site that uses the product. There's a big difference.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 1st, 2011, 09:43 PM
I'm guessing they started reading this topic and screaming in their private area.... ::)

And still no official explanation, eh?
Guys! Don't start making up rules and implying they've always existed! If you can't fight, then just keep quiet instead of making fools out of yourselves by doing lame actions that only hurt your reputation. These people you're blaming, are the very ones who care about the SMF codebase's future! If you can't keep your software alive, don't start blaming others for your own shortcomings!

Next step, then...?

@JBlaze> It's not competition if IT ISN'T AVAILABLE, for God's sake!
It's a site running SMF, and discussing SMF-based software. Their links don't even say it's a forum software! It just says Wedge!
What they're trying to do is stupid. They're only saving time.

It wouldn't surprise me, at this point, that they never release Gold at this point. Just to make sure Wedge doesn't get in the way....... ::)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: ['Daniel'] on April 1st, 2011, 09:46 PM
But the personal site uses certain software that can be seen as competition, and by you using it you give advertising to it.
JBlaze, when they asked you to remove the links to your IPB stuff, were you linking to the main IPB site or was it your personal site that used the product?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: JBlaze on April 1st, 2011, 11:27 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 1st, 2011, 09:43 PM
@JBlaze> It's not competition if IT ISN'T AVAILABLE, for God's sake!
It's a site running SMF, and discussing SMF-based software. Their links don't even say it's a forum software! It just says Wedge!
What they're trying to do is stupid. They're only saving time.
The point is that this website is the home of the SMF fork. It's considered advertising the competition. I'm actually siding with them on this one.
Quote from dannbass on April 1st, 2011, 09:46 PM
But the personal site uses certain software that can be seen as competition, and by you using it you give advertising to it.
JBlaze, when they asked you to remove the links to your IPB stuff, were you linking to the main IPB site or was it your personal site that used the product?
It was linking to the IPB main site. They have no problem with me linking to my current site which is running IPB.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: ['Daniel'] on April 1st, 2011, 11:35 PM
Quote from JBlaze on April 1st, 2011, 11:27 PM
It was linking to the IPB main site. They have no problem with me linking to my current site which is running IPB.
Ok, I see and understand, I had no problem removing the link when Kindred asked me, the only thing I don't like is how they make rules out of thin air whenever they need to. Can I see where the actual rule is written down? for example...

So this is not the first time that a rule just appeared, what I am saying is that a good set of rules should be in place that covers all the possible situations. Maybe that's something wedge should do for the near future.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 12:19 AM
Quote
It was linking to the IPB main site. They have no problem with me linking to my current site which is running IPB.
Do you think it's appropriate for a 'core developer' to be linking to another system, though?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 12:25 AM
What about a linkless logo?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 12:29 AM
Probably considered advertising the competition.

@JBlaze, do me a favour and read the Core Values. I'm sure the words 'fair competition' are in there somewhere...
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 12:34 AM
We exist in a competitive world, with many other alternative software titles. We will persevere in this arena through quality and respect, not through antagonism and hate. We will be supportive and will not insult, disparage or in any other way tear down other projects, businesses or organizations. ---smf
Posted: April 2nd, 2011, 12:33 AM

Epic fail.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:35 AM
with arantor and nao on the team, it really isnt fair competition. lol

thats like putting the dallas cowboys against a high school team. lol
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:39 AM
hey they won't understand your joke!
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:42 AM
even tho they in europe, that cant not know what american football is!!!  :D
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:45 AM
-dies-
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 12:47 AM
Quote from texasman1979 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:35 AM
with arantor and nao on the team, it really isnt fair competition. lol

thats like putting the dallas cowboys against a high school team. lol
Yeah, except we're the high school team that's going to kick their asses ;)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 2nd, 2011, 01:11 AM
not what i meant lol

yall are the cowboys and they the students. :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 01:51 AM
That's probably about the size of it since, er... gotta make it right for public somehow... Nao and Pete know more of SMF than the SM devs I daresay :whistle:
Posted: April 2nd, 2011, 01:50 AM

Gee whiz that'll inflate ego x200
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on April 2nd, 2011, 04:30 AM
If this is highschool I want to be the werk lady-killer jock... :P
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 05:39 AM
OT: Dismal Shadow, did they ask you to remove it?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Dismal Shadow on April 2nd, 2011, 08:39 AM
Quote from live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 05:39 AM
OT: Dismal Shadow, did they ask you to remove it?
yes they did. I don't have time to edit my sig...not from a mobile. Maybe I am buying time. :P
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 10:01 AM
Quote from live627 on April 2nd, 2011, 01:51 AM
Nao and Pete know more of SMF than the SM devs I daresay :whistle:
That's old news. It was already the case long before we started work on Wedge... (Especially for Pete.)

Posted: April 2nd, 2011, 10:00 AM
Quote from texasman1979 on April 2nd, 2011, 12:42 AM
even tho they in europe, that cant not know what american football is!!!  :D
Heard of it, but am I also supposed to know your local teams?

Just like I wouldn't expect you to know about the PSG...

I'm just saying-- the world doesn't revolve around the US (or Texas.)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 10:06 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 2nd, 2011, 12:34 AM
We exist in a competitive world, with many other alternative software titles. We will persevere in this arena through quality and respect, not through antagonism and hate. We will be supportive and will not insult, disparage or in any other way tear down other projects, businesses or organizations. ---smf
Posted: April 2nd, 2011, 12:33 AM

Epic fail.
Okay I was on my iPod last night so I couldn't elaborate.

- The SMF team has always been living by its 'core values'.
- They have yet to give proof that they actually made up a rule about competition links BEFORE Pete started putting a link to Wedge in his signature.
- Seriously, they never made such a rule. That's unfair behavior.
- So, everyone's entitled to put the link back into their signatures. If you're unsure, you can always copy and paste the corresponding Core Value, "Friendly Competition".
Putting a link in your signature without any other indication is not a demonstration of hate or antagonism. It's just sharing. The SMF team controls their board. They can dictate what people may have in their signatures, but they can't conflict with their core values -- especially if presented publicly with the evidence.

The day SMF starts violating its core values, can someone tell me -- what exactly are these core values worth? They're just lies. They already violated them for me last year. Will they violate them for every single one of you? Their reputation is at stake.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 02:44 PM
Quote
- The SMF team has always been living by its 'core values'.
No, they claim to live by them but actually haven't for a long time. The number of times I can show you people breaking them over and over is not even funny - even though after January, everyone on team was asked to electronically sign a document agreeing to uphold them.
Quote
- They have yet to give proof that they actually made up a rule about competition links BEFORE Pete started putting a link to Wedge in his signature.
The only rule I can ever remember being documented on this was to do with the paid adverts they have, that Google ads etc can't be linked to vB or MyBB or whatever and will be blocked. But I've never been told of any rule about it in signatures.
Quote
- Seriously, they never made such a rule. That's unfair behavior.
See above.
Quote
- So, everyone's entitled to put the link back into their signatures. If you're unsure, you can always copy and paste the corresponding Core Value, "Friendly Competition".
Yup.
Quote
Putting a link in your signature without any other indication is not a demonstration of hate or antagonism. It's just sharing. The SMF team controls their board. They can dictate what people may have in their signatures, but they can't conflict with their core values -- especially if presented publicly with the evidence.
Oh, they can, quite easily.
Quote
The day SMF starts violating its core values, can someone tell me -- what exactly are these core values worth?
That day was a long time ago.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 04:40 PM
You know what though?

As much as I'd like to believe that this could end gracefully, I know full well that it won't unless we take the choice to let it go. And therein's the thing: I've said that Wedge is the direct consequence of their combined failures to get it right, to make it what it could have been and not push out the people who can and will make a difference.

That hasn't changed one iota; Wedge was founded on the rising out of the embers of the fire that both Nao and I had in our hearts for SMF, out of the countless hours we both gave to the SMF ecosystem, out of all the things we saw being done wrong, or not being done to the very best they could.

It was never a battle of politics between us and them - not for one moment. It was a battle of ideologies, of hearts and minds, the bottom line is that we had plans for what SMF could have been, and we were previously prepared to help them make it happen, but our plans are not their plans.

Going our own way was inevitable, sooner or later, whether it was 'forcibly' after the events of last summer that compelled us to do this or not. I mean, had the alternative happened and we became SMF devs, it would only have been after 2.0 anyway that something like Wedge happened, because we'd have disagreed vehemently between what we wanted in 2.1 and what they would have wanted - remember, they take the view, legitimately even if it is somewhat naive, that they are 'only a forum' or 'a forum first and foremost'. That's not our view, that's not where we're going. So in the end it would have come down to us and them, the only difference was in the terms and timing of the split.

There is, much as I don't really want to accept it, a legitimacy to their point: we are still competition, by having signatures, we would be promoting competition on their site, and whether the rule predates this or not, the question you have to ask is whether we'd allow a link to simplemachines.org from a signature here, and I suspect the answer is no.

So, with that in mind, I henceforth ask everyone to remove images and website links from simplemachines.org pointing here. They've made it clear they don't have any issues with people linking to sites powered by phpBB in signatures - and that's right, they're not competing with simplemachines.org, no matter how it looks.

When the time comes, we can follow their example and link to Wedge powered sites in our signatures, just not here specifically - after all, that's not competing with simplemachines.org, is it?

This round is theirs, and legitimately so. But instead of us trying to compete with them directly on their battle ground, let's take the competition to the open market and let the two compete on an absolutely equitable basis, and then see how well it works out for all concerned.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: dazed on April 2nd, 2011, 04:51 PM
Hear, hear! Very well put.  :cool:

Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 2nd, 2011, 05:08 PM
I completely agree.  Extremely well put!
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 05:37 PM
I don't get your point, Pete, and I don't understand what you're suggesting we do.

Also, again there's no word from the SMF team about their so-called rule. And nothing about the core value either.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 05:48 PM
Quote
I don't get your point, Pete, and I don't understand what you're suggesting we do.
I'm suggesting we stop farting about arguing with them about their apparent rules for signatures, that we stop trying to take the battle to their doorstep, when we can't fight them on their turf. Were the situations reversed, we wouldn't accept a link like that, and they couldn't fight us on our turf under those circumstances.

So, instead of wasting any more time trying to argue the point, let's instead concentrate on making Wedge as awesome as possible, then migrate our sites to it - and then we can link those in our signatures, competing on a level playing field, so people have the choice themselves what they do.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Dismal Shadow on April 2nd, 2011, 05:50 PM
Point proven.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 06:40 PM
Quote from Arantor on April 2nd, 2011, 05:48 PM
I'm suggesting we stop farting about arguing with them about their apparent rules for signatures, that we stop trying to take the battle to their doorstep, when we can't fight them on their turf. Were the situations reversed, we wouldn't accept a link like that, and they couldn't fight us on our turf under those circumstances.
...Err, I would accept a link like that. I mean, if I let someone from a competing team post 44k tech support messages on my boards, I'd be GRATEFUL for their help, rather than try to prevent them from getting a link in exchange.... Meh!
Quote
So, instead of wasting any more time trying to argue the point, let's instead concentrate on making Wedge as awesome as possible,
We are, already :P
Quote
then migrate our sites to it - and then we can link those in our signatures, competing on a level playing field, so people have the choice themselves what they do.
I'm just waitin' for us to discuss the plans for showing off Wedge. (First feature sets, then screenshots, then demo site, then websites running it internally, etc?)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 06:41 PM
Quote from Bloc on April 2nd, 2011, 05:59 PM
Next step is transforming Blocweb.(and I don't have any sig at sm.org anymore, so i am either way with not putting anything in sigs there)
You should still be aware that as long as we don't have an import tool ready to go, you can't directly convert your website -- you'll have to rebuild it from scratch. Is that okay with you?

We could help with importing posts, though.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: spoogs on April 2nd, 2011, 06:56 PM
Or make it so smf users must get their themes from a Wedge site ;)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Gary on April 2nd, 2011, 07:14 PM
Reading this topic has gotten me very tempted to replace my Maggie/Lisa image with a link to this forum. I've made it clear that the team has no right to tell me what I should have in my signature, or to edit themselves without my permission, so much so that Amacythe was actually scared to edit my sig to fix a typo. :P

But I'm just gonna leave it be. Apparently, the team just likes to make rules up as they feel like it.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 2nd, 2011, 08:19 PM
Thanks for your support. :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: godboko71 on April 3rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
Honestly who cares what they do over there anymore... Well besides when they release 2.0 gold so that wedge can start releasing :-P
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 12:39 PM
...And we'll release within a couple of months after their gold version, hopefully. (Ideally, a couple of weeks. But I don't know where we'll be when they release. If I'm right in the middle of integrating AeMe and I still have dozens of bugs, we can't release obviously. Same for blog support, etc.)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: godboko71 on April 3rd, 2011, 12:49 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 12:39 PM
...And we'll release within a couple of months after their gold version, hopefully. (Ideally, a couple of weeks. But I don't know where we'll be when they release. If I'm right in the middle of integrating AeMe and I still have dozens of bugs, we can't release obviously. Same for blog support, etc.)
As slow as they are going yo all might be ready for your gold release :P Watch I say that and to spite those words they release tomorrow
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Cassiel on April 3rd, 2011, 03:51 PM
Quote from godboko71 on April 3rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
Well besides when they release 2.0 gold so that wedge can start releasing :-P
That's all I go there to check for nowadays.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM
Quote from godboko71 on April 3rd, 2011, 12:49 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 12:39 PM
...And we'll release within a couple of months after their gold version, hopefully. (Ideally, a couple of weeks. But I don't know where we'll be when they release. If I'm right in the middle of integrating AeMe and I still have dozens of bugs, we can't release obviously. Same for blog support, etc.)
As slow as they are going yo all might be ready for your gold release :P Watch I say that and to spite those words they release tomorrow
If it were anyone else this would be possible, but them?  We might be lucky if we see SMF 2.0 Gold this year although I'm really hoping I'm wrong.
Quote from Cassiel on April 3rd, 2011, 03:51 PM
Quote from godboko71 on April 3rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
Well besides when they release 2.0 gold so that wedge can start releasing :-P
That's all I go there to check for nowadays.
Basically the same for me.  I stopped looking at the forums (not that I posted) back around when Nao was post banned and all the AeMe threads were merged.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
Quote from borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM
Basically the same for me.  I stopped looking at the forums (not that I posted) back around when Nao was post banned and all the AeMe threads were merged.
Do you mean there are people who actually got hurt just as much as I got hurt by the SMF team's behavior at the time? :sob:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 3rd, 2011, 07:47 PM
Last year saw a lot of people, mostly good people, getting hurt. We were far from the only casualties.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 07:53 PM
Oh yes, that I know and sympathize.
But I just didn't think that someone would take offense for seeing me banned. I thought most people didn't even notice... :^^;: (Since the fact that I'm banned is one of the subjects that is subject to a potential ban over there............)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 3rd, 2011, 07:54 PM
It's not, I've made mention of it more than once, usually in response to people asking for support.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 07:55 PM
Well, they locked topics at the time just because it was mentioned.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 3rd, 2011, 08:07 PM
I don't really remember, I just know it was handled badly.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 08:28 PM
It was really.... not pretty.

Then again, have you ever seen the SMF team handle a crisis in a pretty way?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 3rd, 2011, 08:28 PM
Not since a long, long time ago when there were different people in charge, judging by the archives of the team discussion boards.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 08:57 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
Quote from borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM
Basically the same for me.  I stopped looking at the forums (not that I posted) back around when Nao was post banned and all the AeMe threads were merged.
Do you mean there are people who actually got hurt just as much as I got hurt by the SMF team's behavior at the time? :sob:
I wasn't directly hurt by them, but I thought the way they handled the situation was just really not the best way at all or even close.  So I pretty much stopped watching the thread after that and moved over to reading the AeMe section at Noisen.  I definitely think there are people who got hurt by it.  I don't know if as much, but enough to completely forget about going to the SMF forums in my case.  Personally I only go there now when an update comes out, so yeah not too often.
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 07:53 PM
Oh yes, that I know and sympathize.
But I just didn't think that someone would take offense for seeing me banned. I thought most people didn't even notice... :^^;: (Since the fact that I'm banned is one of the subjects that is subject to a potential ban over there............)
Yes I definitely did notice if only because I read about what happened over at Noisen.  Though even if I hadn't I'd of probably found out eventually.
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 08:28 PM
It was really.... not pretty.

Then again, have you ever seen the SMF team handle a crisis in a pretty way?
Not that I've ever heard about and just the fact they'd ban the creator of the most popular mod for their software just shows how they really don't think about the consequences of their actions or even the actions themself sometimes.

In the end what they did to you and the fact there hasn't really been any new development to SMF (New Features) in a few years now made my decision to switch to Wedge when it comes out extremely easy and a very fast decision.  Pretty much "Simple math."  :lol:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 3rd, 2011, 10:19 PM
The reason i chose to switch is the fact that arantor wad hands down the most helpful person on sm.org, and he teamed up with the author of THE top mod. I tend to side with the one that volenteerily works to be the best they can be. There is no doubt in my mind wedge will be one of the top brands for forum type software if not the best within 1 year of debut. And i will consider it an honor for their copyright to reside at the bottom of every page view once im able to covert to wedge software. Keep up the kick ass work guys, just dont get too stoned in the english channel, save some for me. :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
@Pete> Yeah... 'twas a different team. Their names shall remain to me as those of the true builders of SMF. Those who actually made it into a worthy platform.
The new generation is in... And it didn't have to do a single effort to get the platform to what it is now. All it has to do is maintain it. And they can't even do that... And to add insult to injury, they can't even handle the human aspects of the job. Yeah.... Good job indeed! ::)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 10:33 PM
Quote from borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 08:57 PM
I wasn't directly hurt by them, but I thought the way they handled the situation was just really not the best way at all or even close.  So I pretty much stopped watching the thread after that and moved over to reading the AeMe section at Noisen.  I definitely think there are people who got hurt by it.
I don't mean to say I was *hoping* some people would hurt... But I sure was hoping that people among those who didn't know me at all would feel they handled me unfairly. (Those who know me... Well, they know it was fair to ban me since I was a pain in their ass, always reminding them how lousy they were at everything :niark:)
Quote
Not that I've ever heard about and just the fact they'd ban the creator of the most popular mod for their software just shows how they really don't think about the consequences of their actions or even the actions themself sometimes.
I did remove the mod to make them remember their actions would have consequences. Well, in the end they didn't seem to give a shit (after all, they didn't create the platform.... They don't care about it, it's been proven so many times), and I had to think of the users. So I restored it but it was not without frustration.
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In the end what they did to you and the fact there hasn't really been any new development to SMF (New Features) in a few years now made my decision to switch to Wedge when it comes out extremely easy and a very fast decision.  Pretty much "Simple math."  :lol:
;)

Yeah, as I said the other day, they "feature-froze" SMF about 3 years and a half ago. I'm sure even Duke Nukem Forever (the father of all vaporware) added plenty of features in 2008 and 2009. (Now that's another reason why it never got out... Because they couldn't stop adding features. But from what I see, after the new guys took over, they took a year to complete it without adding features -- and they're only one month late.)
3 years and a half is a lot. The number one browser at the time was *still* IE6. It was barely being challenged by IE7, and Firefox was only a thing for geeks. Curve works perfectly in IE6. That's not something I would be proud of, personally... :P (Given the resulting tag soup at least.)
Posted: April 3rd, 2011, 10:30 PM
Quote from texasman1979 on April 3rd, 2011, 10:19 PM
The reason i chose to switch is the fact that arantor wad hands down the most helpful person on sm.org, and he teamed up with the author of THE top mod. I tend to side with the one that volenteerily works to be the best they can be. There is no doubt in my mind wedge will be one of the top brands for forum type software if not the best within 1 year of debut.
The best, I don't know, I'm still impressed by some features in IPB and XenForo, but then again they're commercial -- and not cheap to begin with. I always thought there should be room for a $50 forum package, or even cheaper, but it's not going to be Wedge. I suppose if you want to make money off a niche market like forum software, you *have* to sell it for a high price. Sad to say... And this is just not me. Nor is it Pete's way of doing things.
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And i will consider it an honor for their copyright to reside at the bottom of every page view once im able to covert to wedge software. Keep up the kick ass work guys, just dont get too stoned in the english channel, save some for me. :)
We've been working together for 7 months but we have yet to meet each other ;) Nearly happened back in December.
Hey Pete, you know you're always welcome at my place, if you want to visit Paris with your girl. We can even discuss programming when you're here.  :angel: :geek:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 11:07 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 10:33 PM
I don't mean to say I was *hoping* some people would hurt...
Figured you didn't hope that.
Quote
Yeah, as I said the other day, they "feature-froze" SMF about 3 years and a half ago. I'm sure even Duke Nukem Forever (the father of all vaporware) added plenty of features in 2008 and 2009. (Now that's another reason why it never got out... Because they couldn't stop adding features. But from what I see, after the new guys took over, they took a year to complete it without adding features -- and they're only one month late.)
New guys yes, but some of the same people too.  It was mostly finished when 3D Realms had to stop work on it, but this is a discussion for other places.
Quote
3 years and a half is a lot. The number one browser at the time was *still* IE6. It was barely being challenged by IE7, and Firefox was only a thing for geeks. Curve works perfectly in IE6. That's not something I would be proud of, personally... :P (Given the resulting tag soup at least.)
If SMF 2.0 came out 3 and a half years ago maybe it would be something to be proud of since IE7 was still fairly new at the time, but now the only versions that truly make sense to support are 8 and 9.  8 only because 9 won't run in Window XP.  I only just upgraded my work computer from IE6 to 8 a few months ago, but if you knew anything about where I worked you wouldn't be surprised they hadn't upgraded.
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The best, I don't know, I'm still impressed by some features in IPB and XenForo, but then again they're commercial -- and not cheap to begin with.
My favorite forum software isn't publically available as it was written specifically for the site its used on as far as I know.  See www.roosterteeth.com(http://www.roosterteeth.com).
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 3rd, 2011, 11:19 PM
Quote from borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 11:07 PM
New guys yes, but some of the same people too.  It was mostly finished when 3D Realms had to stop work on it, but this is a discussion for other places.
Actually, Wedge.org is a very open forum... At least until it becomes overcrowded, there are no rules on off-topic contents, double-posting and the likes ;) (I'll just delete spamming... And signatures linking to sm.org, to Pete's request :niark:)
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If SMF 2.0 came out 3 and a half years ago maybe it would be something to be proud of since IE7 was still fairly new at the time, but now the only versions that truly make sense to support are 8 and 9.
And I *just* spent half an hour fixing bugs in IE6 and IE7... :lol:
One of them was pretty curious -- this won't work: (I'm abstracting the code, of course.)

<span style="clear: both; float: left; width: 100px"></span><span style="float: right; width: 100px"></span>

If you add several in a row, the right-floated divs will be clearly off (which is slightly annoying when you really need to have a proper series of value pairs.) It works in IE8 and any decent browser really. I had to fix it by, ahem... Removing the float: right. Thankfully, it doesn't have any effects on the actual resulting layout...
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My favorite forum software isn't publically available as it was written specifically for the site its used on as far as I know.  See www.roosterteeth.com(http://www.roosterteeth.com).
I don't find anything special in it...? Except maybe for profiles?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: texasman1979 on April 3rd, 2011, 11:20 PM
Tell yall what, yall split me a plain ticket, and well get together for a stagering good time on the french side of the english channel, just bare in mind, ill be upside down from texas, i might fall in. :D
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 11:56 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 3rd, 2011, 11:19 PM
Actually, Wedge.org is a very open forum... At least until it becomes overcrowded, there are no rules on off-topic contents, double-posting and the likes ;) (I'll just delete spamming... And signatures linking to sm.org, to Pete's request :niark:)
I really meant a differnt topic.  However to elaborate when they stopped working on DNF and had to let go most of their employees those employees continued working on the game at home in their free time and created the company (Triptych Games, LLC) thats working on finishing it up with Gearbox.  This is the next game I'm buying
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And I *just* spent half an hour fixing bugs in IE6 and IE7... :lol:
One of those things we get to deal with with all those people out there who hate upgrading...
Quote
I don't find anything special in it...? Except maybe for profiles?
Not sure how to put it, but to me I just really like it a lot as it was very simple to learn from a user point of view.  A lot of features in it that I'd never really seen in most other sites I'd frequent[1], but yes the profiles is one of the best parts of the site as well as a rather well done (imo anyway) karma system.  On a per post[2] level its like the thumbs up/thumbs down system on youtube except its +1/-1 (like +1 Cool or -1 Lame), but on a per user level you see an overall level based on all of their individual posts.  Yes there are many bad things about this as well, but overall I like it.  Shrugs its also one of the first sites I spent *a lot* of time on so I end up comparing a lot of things to it.  :lol:  Much of this stuff just comes down to personal preference too.[3]
 1. Yes more sites have stuff like this now, but I first saw this site in 2005.
 2. By post I mean anything you post on the site not just a forum post.
 3. I'm so downloading the footnotes mod.  :eheh:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 4th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Quote
but on a per user level you see an overall level based on all of their individual posts.
SMF has that, it's called Karma. We ripped it out because it's actually divisive in a community. Maybe it can be reintroduced later as an add-on but it's not really a good idea in the long run.

Oh, and footnotes is already built in ;)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 4th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Quote from Arantor on April 4th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Quote
but on a per user level you see an overall level based on all of their individual posts.
SMF has that, it's called Karma. We ripped it out because it's actually divisive in a community. Maybe it can be reintroduced later as an add-on but it's not really a good idea in the long run.
Yeah I've seen that happen.  They have literally had people make multiple accounts just so they could artificially inflate their karma score.  Its in my list of things called "Don't you have better things to do with your time?"  If its not there I don't really care as its not used at all on my site.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 4th, 2011, 12:08 AM
That's why we removed it ;)

There are better ways to solve the need for post reputation than a global +/- score for each user.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Artur on April 4th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Quote from Arantor on April 4th, 2011, 12:08 AM
That's why we removed it ;)

There are better ways to solve the need for post reputation than a global +/- score for each user.
Sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 4th, 2011, 09:36 AM
Quote from borg1985 on April 3rd, 2011, 11:56 PM
I really meant a differnt topic.  However to elaborate when they stopped working on DNF and had to let go most of their employees those employees continued working on the game at home in their free time and created the company (Triptych Games, LLC) thats working on finishing it up with Gearbox.  This is the next game I'm buying
I don't know if I'll play it -- maybe for old times' sake, since I had a lot of fun with DN3D's shareware episode, in the city. But it's not my kind of game. Pete can confirm -- I'm more into RPGs and puzzle games :P
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like the thumbs up/thumbs down system on youtube except its +1/-1 (like +1 Cool or -1 Lame), but on a per user level you see an overall level based on all of their individual posts.
I think it's smarter, not to show an average of the user's karma points, but a "top 10" of the user's most insightful posts, based on their rating.
Quote
I'm so downloading the footnotes mod.  :eheh:
It's still a bit buggy -- mind you, it took me months before I stumbled upon a new bug, but I left it aside now because it can't be fixed without making the processing part slower. (It's related to having foonotes inside a quote and having several quoted parts in a single message. It's rare because it implies you're power-user-material enough to use both multiquoting and footnotes...)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: borg1985 on April 4th, 2011, 05:14 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on April 4th, 2011, 09:36 AM
I don't know if I'll play it -- maybe for old times' sake, since I had a lot of fun with DN3D's shareware episode, in the city. But it's not my kind of game. Pete can confirm -- I'm more into RPGs and puzzle games :P
I've played and enjoyed a few RPGs however puzzle type games i do very much enjoy especially the games in the Myst series.
Quote
I think it's smarter, not to show an average of the user's karma points, but a "top 10" of the user's most insightful posts, based on their rating.
I like this idea.  So it would be showing the most extremely positively and/or negatively rated posts?
Quote
It's still a bit buggy -- mind you, it took me months before I stumbled upon a new bug, but I left it aside now because it can't be fixed without making the processing part slower. (It's related to having foonotes inside a quote and having several quoted parts in a single message. It's rare because it implies you're power-user-material enough to use both multiquoting and footnotes...)
Odds are I'd be the only person to use it on my site anyway as it doesn't have much activity outside of AeMe and the calendar.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 4th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Quote from borg1985 on April 4th, 2011, 05:14 PM
I like this idea.  So it would be showing the most extremely positively and/or negatively rated posts?
I think only the positive posts would make sense... Unless people want to have fun at themselves :P
Quote
Odds are I'd be the only person to use it on my site anyway as it doesn't have much activity outside of AeMe and the calendar.
That's the problem with Footnotes. Nobody knows about this mod because even if it's installed, only the smart ones use it. :niark:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: snoopy-virtual on April 14th, 2011, 08:25 PM
It looks like I always miss most of the news.

I had missed this topic completely, and just noticed one hour ago (reading a topic in SMF to help a friend) that Arantor's sig didn't have the Wedge picture linking here.

So I have been reading all this topic trying to decide if I should leave mine or delete it.

When I started reading the first pages I was thinking the best option would be to leave the picture in my sig until they asked me to remove it, and then answer very politely saying "Sorry, I didn't know that rule existed at all".

I even liked the idea from TE about inserting that pictures with links to here in our mods (here(http://wedge.org/pub/6550/so-i-ve-been-asked/msg257163/#msg257163)).

But then I read the reasoning Pete was doing about forgetting about all that childish arguments, delete all that pictures and concentrate in really important things (here(http://wedge.org/pub/6550/so-i-ve-been-asked/msg257486/#msg257486)).

I think you are right Pete. I will delete mine then.

Still it makes me angry the way they invent new rules every time they need one.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 14th, 2011, 10:19 PM
/melikes childish! :p
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 14th, 2011, 10:34 PM
Childishness has a place, and a time. Here are now are neither.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 15th, 2011, 12:18 AM
Go tell that to the SMF team...
I myself spend most of my time working on Wedge. A small flame war from time to time is not a problem-- I deal with them during my breaks anyway. But marketing, I can't do alone.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 15th, 2011, 12:31 AM
I get the feeling that marketing is not a priority right now, and that getting the code in shape is a much bigger priority.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 15th, 2011, 12:50 AM
Marketing's a long-term thing. We might as well get started on good foundations. That's all I'm sayin'. Maybe the SMF team can feel offended that they suddenly have 44k+ links to Wedge.org on their website (even though Google doesn't value much all of these repeated similar links), but they certainly crossed the line by editing the link out from my signature (considering I haven't posted in 8 months and thus am not particularly well 'seen' on their forum), repeatedly until I gave up (I guess I'm not the 'younger' spirit here... :)), and without any prior or further notice.
There are things that I have a hard time accepting.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: snoopy-virtual on April 15th, 2011, 08:49 PM
Quote
Marketing's a long-term thing
Agree to that.

That's why since you said some weeks ago it was OK to spread the name "Wedge" every where I have been putting links to it in all the sites I control.

As far as SMF I have deleted the picture and link I had in my signature as Pete requested, but I am still thinking on adding one on my mods. I am working on updates for the 2 of them (mod httpBL and mod Stop Spammer) and they are used for a lot of people.

As far as I know they haven't done "yet" any new rule about it.  :eheh:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on April 15th, 2011, 11:08 PM
I think marketing should be manage from the point of someone with lots of experience...

It's nice to see a lot of familiar faces around :)
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 15th, 2011, 11:30 PM
Quote from DoctorMalboro on April 15th, 2011, 11:08 PM
I think marketing should be manage from the point of someone with lots of experience...
Thinking about that, it's interesting that SMF's current marketing director is Kindred.
Without him, there would probably be no Wedge today... He should be a marketing director for us :angel:
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on April 15th, 2011, 11:52 PM
If noone else volunteers you can always use a monkey.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: snoopy-virtual on April 16th, 2011, 12:22 AM
Update:

Kindred have just send me a PM saying that he is following this topic and asking me not to put any links on my mods to the Wedge.

So I have answered him saying that, as he is one of the few people in the direction of SMF I still feel a lot of respect for, if he ask me not to do it I won't do it.
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Arantor on April 16th, 2011, 12:28 AM
Hello Kindred!
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: DoctorMalboro on April 16th, 2011, 02:50 AM
If he's following this topic, why didn't I get a PM?
Title: Re: So, I've been asked...
Post by: Nao on April 16th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Hello Kindred!²

Considering the probably nice (and outrageously uncalled for) PM to Snoopy, and the fact that no-one in the team bothered to tell me when my signature link was edited out, I've made a decision.

In a few days I'll be releasing as expected a new version of AeMe with a few fixes that were long overdue, including the infamous youtu.be fix. You know, the fix that wasn't supposed to be linked to?

And the Noisen link will be replaced with a link to Wedge. Oh, the horror!

I'm afraid there is *no rule* about what kind of links that can be put in mods. [1][2]

It's within your rights as site owners to block any link you find objectionable, of course, seeing as we've heard it plainly said that it's not an open community[3]. Just be careful of karma if you do so... I'm sure we all remember what happened in January 2010 where linking to Jeff's blog was a ban-worthy offence, and the site name was the subject of censoring the words - which just meant, ultimately, people were more intrigued to find out what was going on.

The issue that we raised before isn't particularly whether you want to block us, because you have that right regardless, but whether you feel you have to make up new rules to justify it to yourselves. In other words, if you want to, go nuts, but be honest about it.

So, crunch time: if you're going to censor AeMe with this link in, do it, do it now and do it completely. No half measures, no messing about, either censor it completely or don't bother - any half measure is going to just encourage people to get curious about it.

That is...

- Don't forget to delete all of the AeMe related topics. (The most important ones to remove are: 1(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=200401.0), 2(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=260821.0), and 3(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=327942.0), plus the discussions in Chit Chat asking where it went last time.) And no moving to a recycle board or a private area. Just the good old "Remove Topic" button. I want to see all of us who spent many hours to help the community lose those hundreds, thousands of posts in our post count.

- Oh, and while you're at it, if you delete these topics, then I want you to delete all of my posts as well. Not my account or whatever, *just* my forum posts. That's only 6k posts, barely a quarter of a percent of all messages on the board. No one will notice.[4]

- You can delete the ~400 bug reports on the bug tracker, while you're at it. Who cares about bug reports when the developers don't give a damn about fixing them anyway. Don't worry, I've fixed them all in Wedge so it's not like it's important by now.

- Basically, make sure no one ever remembers me or Aeva Media, let alone mention us.[5] You could even add to your Core Values a new paragraph saying that you believe forks of SMF are Evil, and that you vouch never to let anyone mention us.[6] I mean, you could even use the word censor to replace Wedge and AeMe with SMF and SGP, just like the good old Jeff Lewis days, but maybe that's going a bit far. There is a part of me that thinks you should add something along the lines of, "AeMe never existed anyway, it's obviously your imagination. Why would anyone spend two years fulltime working on a free gallery system for the benefit of a software managed by incompetent fools?[7]"

Take these hints lightly, with heart or with contempt, I don't really give a hoot.[8]
I said what I had to say, and I made fun of what I needed to make fun of. The simple fact that I *had* to actually post this, should make you start thinking about your team's behavior.
The SMF community can't be fooled. Try hiding things from their sight, you'll only make them wonder what's going on -- you're doing yourselves a disfavor.[9]



Arantor adds: I completely support the decision being taken here, after thinking long and hard about it, about what I'd have done in the same position, though I suspect I'd have just removed Aeva long ago were I in that position.

There's a fair bet you'll call us out on being 'unfair', or that we're 'needlessly griping' or similar as has happened to my previous messages, except that to do so would underscore my impression of how both of us were treated at times: that it's fine all the time we're benefitting the project but the minute we stop benefitting it, there's a distinct sense of "sit down and shut up".

If the team feels it's in order to withdraw AeMe because of this being unfair, that's ultimately for the team to resolve, not Nao; I've been saying for a while that Aeva is ultimately going to disappear because it's basically not being developed for SMF and hasn't been actively developed for SMF's benefit in months.[10]

It comes down to this: this is ultimately giving you carte blanche to remove AeMe from sm.org forever, to be pretty much permanently rid of us[11]. When your users ask you where it went, you're the ones who have to look them in the eye and tell them where it went, and why - and why we felt Wedge was even necessary in the first place. Remember that.

I've called for there to be a halt to links from sm.org to here, initially of the team's request. Notice that while I wasn't happy, I was compliant with your request and tried to encourage others to do so, with varying degrees of success. I'd hope that the same courtesy could be supplied on your end.
 1. Arantor confirmed that there have been no rules for the past 2 years on this, and there certainly aren't any in the current rules(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=357757.0) about it. The only rule that's ever been enforced to his knowledge are the users who linked to a warez site in the mod descriptions and in the mods themselves, and he demanded they remove it - with a week's notice, which led to this rule(http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=346770.0) being added to the rules. Whatever, there aren't any rules about it right now.
 2. No doubt, though, there will be the argument that 'well, it's not allowed on the main site so it shouldn't be in mods either'.
 3. As per http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=404701.msg2836362#msg2836362
 4. AeMe was never considered a 'Contribution', so the wording of the CLA does not apply here: 'For the purposes of this definition, "submitted" means any form of electronic, verbal, or written communication sent to Simple Machines or its representatives, including but not limited to communication on electronic mailing lists, source code control systems, and issue tracking systems that are managed by, or on behalf of, Simple Machines for the purpose of discussing and improving the Work, but excluding communication that is conspicuously marked or otherwise designated in writing by You as "Not a Contribution."' - the posts in the AeMe topics are not contributions to SM because they are not for the purpose of discussing and improving the Work. My other posts may or may not be contributions, I don't care, what I know is that I can simply delete them myself.
 5. You know, like Amy asked for her name to be modified on the SM database.
 6. And while you're at it, remove most of Arantor's posts from December that mention it.
 7. Of course, I'm talking for you but feel free to replace "incompetent fools" with something more in line with the depths you felt your team sank to.
 8. Arantor did change some words, though, because years of frustration do not adequately convey what needed to be said.
 9. Like last summer, with the number of 'where did Aeva go' threads. Oh, and of course -- the thousands of websites with Aeva or AeMe installed will keep showing a link to the Aeva website, and thus indirectly to the Wedge website.
 10. Note from Nao (hey, I can add footnotes too! :P): again, AeMe is no longer in development, but I'm trying to keep up with security updates. Considering there have been no security breaches in 2011, I didn't have any reason to release new versions. I've had no plans to delete AeMe from SM.org simply because I like the SMF community, at least enough to make sure SMF Gallery <yikes> isn't the only gallery system available to them.
 11. And once 2.0 final is out, that'll be it.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 1st, 2011, 11:04 PM
The SMF team has deleted Aeva Media from the mod site. Entirely. It's not 'hidden' or anything, I can't access it even after I'm logged into the website.

The official reason is that it's too taxing on their server. So much for encouraging people to develop successful mods eh...

So basically -- I don't see any point in having any of my mods on their website. I'm hereby requesting the deletion of all my mods and their associated topics.

Just as a reminder: I didn't do or say a SINGLE thing against the SMF team since last August, including in private. I'd considered our 'history' as settled.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: and on November 1st, 2011, 11:29 PM
sad, but Nao, Do not worry! All that is done - done for the better!
Consider it another sign pointing to the fact that now you have to make more efforts for an early exit wedge.
  To show how much you and your product (wedge) is better!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 1st, 2011, 11:40 PM
Quote
The official reason is that it's too taxing on their server. So much for encouraging people to develop successful mods eh...
It's not a deletion, per se, I just checked. It's actually a change to the mod site code to physically lock out access. Bearing in mind that they have had a DDOS and a server rebuild (including, apparently, moving 599GB of data between servers[1]) so I can see some validity in their argument - did they tell you they were doing it?

Given the circumstances I'd probably give them a little slack though if they told you that's what they were doing and that the removal isn't just a temporary thing, then I'd be pretty frustrated too. I don't know any more about this than you've posted here, so I have no idea whether it is permanent or temporary, or what the state of play is with them. I did have a reasonably civil conversation with Antechinus in the last couple of days, so I actually thought relations were tenuous but not hostile.
Quote
So basically -- I don't see any point in having any of my mods on their website. I'm hereby requesting the deletion of all my mods and their associated topics.
That would be a waste of time, because while you can remove the mods yourself, they'll only go as far as locking the mod topics, they won't remove the posts because they will claim that your signing the CLA covers their use. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, cried into my beer afterwards.
 1. What the fucking hell are they using 599GB of data for?
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 1st, 2011, 11:46 PM
Pete, ichbin told me to fix aeme to remove the fetch code. I said I thought it was done earlier buy I probably only did it for Aeva lite. I said I might look into it but that even if I fixed it, earlier installs would still fetch the page so I suggested to change the mod page id in the database for an immediate result and just block any direct requests to the original mod page. I only suggested that. I didn't suggest removing the mod entirely.

The sad thing is that I just didn't l care about AeMe for smf. Meaning that whether it was online or not didn't matter to me.
What I disapprove is that this was done without my express consent.
The point is that I own the files. I worked on it for two f'king years. I think I've had enough influence over Smf's success to have a say here. I left the file online because I was cool with the smf team. My original plans were to delete AeMe for smf entirely so I wouldn't have to deal with supporting it. I cut the problem in two and left the file to show everything was cool.

Anyway. This post wasn't to rekindle my 'flame' with smf. Just meant to say I didn't approve of this move and thus I'm off the site and don't want to be associated with it any longer. Including contributions.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 1st, 2011, 11:50 PM
(possibly my longest ever iPod post :P)
Posted: November 1st, 2011, 11:47 PM

As for my posts --- they're nothing compared to yours. Most of my posts were about Aeva media so it wouldn't be a huge loss anyway.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 1st, 2011, 11:55 PM
Quote
Pete, ichbin told me to fix aeme to remove the fetch code. I said I thought it was done earlier buy I probably only did it for Aeva lite. I said I might look into it but that even if I fixed it, earlier installs would still fetch the page so I suggested to change the mod page id in the database for an immediate result and just block any direct requests to the original mod page. I only suggested that.
That's what they've done. If I head to the relevant page, I get an empty response, rather than any other kind of failure; the connection is simply dropped, no page served, which is implementing your suggestion to the letter.
Quote
The sad thing is that I just didn't l care about AeMe for smf. Meaning that whether it was online or not didn't matter to me.
What I disapprove is that this was done without my express consent.
*nods* I understand that.
Quote
The point is that I own the files. I worked on it for two f'king years. I think I've had enough influence over Smf's success to have a say here.
Sadly, that's not how it works. The minute you signed the CLA, a surprising number of rights were considered to have been granted. Technically, they have a licence to embed it into SMF if they so chose... (seriously, read the old SMF licence and in particular the terms of distributing modifications) but that's not going to happen, not because they can or can't, but because they won't.
Quote
I left the file online because I was cool with the smf team. My original plans were to delete AeMe for smf entirely so I wouldn't have to deal with supporting it. I cut the problem in two and left the file to show everything was cool.
It didn't quite work like that from where I'm standing, but ultimately this has to come down to you and them; it's your work after all, and their... creative... ways of rewarding you for it.
Quote
Anyway. This post wasn't to rekindle my 'flame' with smf. Just meant to say I didn't approve of this move and thus I'm off the site and don't want to be associated with it any longer. Including contributions.
You don't get off that lightly, just as I didn't. The CLA is a surprisingly big stick they have to wield should they need to, but at the time we both signed them, I at least never dreamed it would come to where it eventually did, where it is used to hold work hostage. (Yes, there's no other word for it; when they removed my ability to delete my own posts, that was effectively keeping my work hostage without any ability for me to have a meaningful say in how it's used. It burned, but it's no longer my problem.)
Quote
As for my posts --- they're nothing compared to yours. Most of my posts were about Aeva media so it wouldn't be a huge loss anyway.
A lot of mine weren't really that meaningful either, when it came down to it. A lot of them were just asking people the same questions over and over and over again.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 12:11 AM
That cla was too unclear anyway. What is a contribution. And I don't consider it retroactive anyway. That would stand in court I reckon.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 12:25 AM
Quote
That cla was too unclear anyway. What is a contribution. And I don't consider it retroactive anyway. That would stand in court I reckon.
It's not unclear, a contribution is defined, and it is retroactive, and I think it will stand in court - by their definitions, too.

Let me quote the relevant points.
Quote
You accept and agree to the following terms and conditions for Your
present and future Contributions submitted to Simple Machines
There's your retroactive definition covered - it's a licence for *present* as in already given, as well as future, contributions.
Quote
"Contribution" shall mean any original work of authorship,
   including any modifications or additions to an existing work, that
   is intentionally submitted by You to Simple Machines for inclusion
   in, or documentation of, any of the products owned or managed by
   Simple Machines (the "Work"). For the purposes of this definition,
   "submitted" means any form of electronic, verbal, or written
   communication sent to Simple Machines or its representatives,
   including but not limited to communication on electronic mailing
   lists, source code control systems, and issue tracking systems that
   are managed by, or on behalf of, Simple Machines for the purpose of
   discussing and improving the Work, but excluding communication that
   is conspicuously marked or otherwise designated in writing by You
   as "Not a Contribution."
A post is legally an original work of authorship, as is a mod (and Aeva certainly fits both original work of authorship, plus a modification to an existing work, i.e. SMF)

The mod licence covers how 'inclusion in' works with respect to dev rights over mods, and your posts are covered under 'documentation of' the products.

Submission being electronic communication on electronic mailing lists (which includes a forum), source code control systems (anything you put in SVN, even if it was reverted), and issue tracking systems (any bug report). Note that it is including but *not limited to* these things, and that can be stretched without too much effort to include anything you ever posted including Aeva on sm.org.
Quote
but excluding communication that
   is conspicuously marked or otherwise designated in writing by You
   as "Not a Contribution."
Here's where the get-out clause would be, except that I don't think you can 'take it back' once submitted, unless it was defined as 'not a contribution' at the time of posting, or at the point of signing the CLA. I had to make it clear on arantormods for example that none of the mods published were to be considered Contributions just to cover myself.
Quote
Grant of Copyright License. Subject to the terms and conditions of
   this Agreement, You hereby grant to Simple Machines and to
   recipients of software distributed by Simple Machines a perpetual,
   worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable
   copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of,
   publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute Your
   Contributions and such derivative works.
And there's where the hammer comes down. Once they have right to it, that's it, game over.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 2nd, 2011, 01:10 AM
Not going to comment on the CLA issue, as I really don't care about that. But concerning Aeva, please don't read more into what I have already said Nao and what you noticed on the mod site. I have specifically told you why the mod was removed. Your mod on all those different sites was hammering the server (amongst other hammering) so steps were taken to make your mod unavailable in order to get the server stable. For now the mod sits in our approval queue until we can decide how to handle everything that I've been talking to you about in PM here. If you'd like to get the files to look at the code, I can get those for you. But right now nobody has access to them since they've blocked access to the mod.

ETA: attaching the aeva lite file.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 01:16 AM
Quote
please don't read more into what I have already said
Well, I certainly couldn't read anything into it other than what was said but it looked as described, removal due to hammering. The part I wasn't sure of was whether there had been any communication and whether it was implied/stated/unclear as to whether this was a temporary or permanent measure.

And as stated, even if Aeva is updated to remove the code, any pre-existing installs won't be updated because mod users are notorious for not updating things.


As for the CLA issue, I would bear it in mind that it is a bit dangerously worded and even though there is a clause at the top which says that SM agrees not to use anything that is against the spirit of the licence and agreement, just be mindful that if it is deemed in the spirit of benefitting SM, it can be done. I'm not saying it will, just that it could. And while you personally might not, others might.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 2nd, 2011, 01:22 AM
I've been in communication the minute that I found out about the mod removal during the server down time with Nao via PM here. I wasn't concerned how it looked to anyone but Nao. lol 

Here's the gallery zip too if you need it. Looks like SleePy was able to ban the user agent so the mod page may be available to you now.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 01:25 AM
Quote
I wasn't concerned how it looked to anyone but Nao. lol
The real question is whether anyone notices and posts about it outside of here. Here, it's something of an old wound, but on sm.org for example I remember the fun last summer when it was removed and people were asking where it went.

But if it's now a user agent ban rather than a full on ban, there's no user backlash from asking where it went, which is better for everyone, really.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 2nd, 2011, 04:43 AM
I've added the mod back into the queue and it's still associated with the old support topic too. Should all be good. If you'd still consider updating the mod with at least the change to remove the update check code, it would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 08:19 AM
Okay, it's back on so everything's cool, forget about my original post, and sorry guys ;)

Banning the user agent is a much, much better idea. Plus, it can be done from the htaccess I think :)

Yes I'll have a look at updating the mod (silently, no version number changes).
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Jorin on November 2nd, 2011, 12:00 PM
Quote from Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 08:19 AM
Yes I'll have a look at updating the mod (silently, no version number changes).
Can you inform the ones using Aeva when it's done? In a way you can personally agree to? I would like to update the mod in my forum.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 01:47 PM
Well in the end I made more changes than expected... Instead of just disabling the URL fetching, I removed the entire code, like I did for Aeva Media. So I suppose it 'deserves' a version update...
I also updated the sitelist, for youtu.be URLs etc.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 01:59 PM
The sad part is a large proportion of people still won't update, after all as far as they're concerned, it isn't broken. But I guess you've done all you can really do with it...
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 02:11 PM
Quote from Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 01:59 PM
The sad part is a large proportion of people still won't update, after all as far as they're concerned, it isn't broken. But I guess you've done all you can really do with it...
It's not sad, it's logical.
Well, I suppose more people would update if the Aeva fetch process was re-enabled for a couple of days (maybe a week) so that earlier versions could reach the sm site, find the new version and point it out to admins.

Anyway... Here's a candidate for version 7.2 (final).
Please install it and test it (mostly the admin area) if you have a copy of Aeva Lite (and no Aeva Media) lying around on your forum.

Edit -- see below.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 02:12 PM
Quote
It's not sad, it's logical.
Even when there is a version that has bug fixes and so on, people still don't move. That's why there are so many forums still with older 2.0 RCs on them for example (including more than one of mine)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 02:17 PM
Or this one... :lol:

Well, it's a very customized version so it explains this and that. (Plus, the fact that we'll be moving it to Wedge soon enough.)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 2nd, 2011, 02:24 PM
I appreciate the update Nao. I think it was the honorable thing to do. Everyone who uninstalls their older versions of AEME and AEVA light will be doing a little bit to reduce the unending barrage of AEVA requests on simplemachines.org.

I'll install it. I've scheduled some time for that tomorrow (I always like to do some testing before even  a very simple install like this).
My little forum is not going to make a big difference to the hammering AEVA installs are giving the site, but I'll do my little part.

The AEVA mod was completely invisible for only a short while -- only until the folks at Simple Machines and the SMF customization team found a less-restrictive way (blocking your unique user agent) to give the customization site some relief from AEVA's barrage of requests. I am told that it would be difficult to re-enable auto-update access now. The AEVA traffic level is that heavy.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 02:31 PM
It would also be worth throwing out builds of some kind for Aeva Media (both strands) simply to help minimise the problem; it's not just Aeva Lite that does auto updates.

:edit: Failing that, how much work is it to disable the auto-update? It might be worth offering a small package that just modifies Aeva itself to disable it (for those who don't want to update anything else)


Also, this makes me consider, very carefully, the viability of having Wedge look up daily for updates to plugins and whether my plans need changing.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 2nd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Nao, I'm assuming you have ported some of this code from your wedge install? Anyway, the mod doesn't work because of this in Subs-Aeva-Sites.php:

Code: [Select]
// Prevent attempts to access this file directly
if (!defined('WEDGE'))
die('Hacking attempt...');

If you wouldn't mind fixing that and then updating the package, it would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 05:43 PM
Ah, silly me... Yes, I copied the sitelist verbatim from Wedge because I was comparing the two versions and there were too many differences so halfway through it I just cancelled my edits and copied the file. Forgot to modify the first line though eheh...

Reuploading.
Posted: November 2nd, 2011, 05:41 PM

Done.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 2nd, 2011, 06:08 PM
So are you going to update the mod at SMF, or would you like me to do that? Thanks for fixing the package.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 06:22 PM
Also, is there going to be any kind of a post to the Aeva thread to notify users following it? Last I understood, Nao was post-banned and thus couldn't make such a post himself.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 07:03 PM
I'm assuming this means the mod update works? Then I've updated the mod page. Hopefully no one gets hurt in the process...

If anyone finds a problem with the new releases, please contact me here, as I haven't looked at sm.org's Aeva topics for many, many moons... (And do not plan to come back either.)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 09:12 PM
BTW Pete, Aeva Media was already (since last April) modified to remove the auto-update code.

And yeah, having all plugins check for new versions will definitely be a nightmare (if only because sm.org itself doesn't do it -- only a few mods do that, and look at where they're at now.)
That's one of the reasons why I suggested requesting that all plugin authors host their 'main' download somewhere else, including the URL to request new version updates.
Maybe we could do it systematically. For instance instead of offering to upload the mod file (which we could still have as a fallback), we'd put priority on asking authors to provide: (1) a direct link to the mod (version number free, so that they don't have to update the URL every time), (2) provide inside their plugin definition file a direct link to the version number request file (we could have some kind of a standard file for this which they'd simply need to fill in and then upload somewhere).
Quote from AngelinaBelle on November 2nd, 2011, 02:24 PM
I appreciate the update Nao. I think it was the honorable thing to do.
Well it's something I'd wanted to do for a long time but I postponed it because I didn't think the load would be that taxing on the server... I mean there are at most 10 to 15k installs of Aeva Lite/Media around, each doing at most one request to one HTML page every day (if they didn't disable the lookup code), so that's one request every ten seconds. At most.

Hmm okay it's still a lot more than zero... :P

I mean I was expecting that if it was a load on the server, I should have received a request about it when I was active on Aeva -- i.e. over a year ago.
Quote
I'll install it. I've scheduled some time for that tomorrow (I always like to do some testing before even  a very simple install like this).
My little forum is not going to make a big difference to the hammering AEVA installs are giving the site, but I'll do my little part.
At the very least, with the user agent being disabled, it'll only be 'ghost' requests.
Quote
The AEVA mod was completely invisible for only a short while -- only until the folks at Simple Machines and the SMF customization team found a less-restrictive way (blocking your unique user agent) to give the customization site some relief from AEVA's barrage of requests. I am told that it would be difficult to re-enable auto-update access now. The AEVA traffic level is that heavy.
It depends on whether the traffic gets manageable. Then they can re-enable the auto-update for a few days, and it should be enough to get all installed Aeva's to update their version number and ask admins to update to the latest version.
As you can see, I added the infamous support for 'youtu.be' URLs as an incentive for noobs to upgrade one final time.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 11:30 PM
Quote
BTW Pete, Aeva Media was already (since last April) modified to remove the auto-update code.
I didn't know it had been changed, so was asking the question on the basis that it probably hadn't.
Quote
Maybe we could do it systematically. For instance instead of offering to upload the mod file (which we could still have as a fallback), we'd put priority on asking authors to provide: (1) a direct link to the mod (version number free, so that they don't have to update the URL every time), (2) provide inside their plugin definition file a direct link to the version number request file (we could have some kind of a standard file for this which they'd simply need to fill in and then upload somewhere).
Hmm. See, I know WordPress does this and if they can cope with it, I see no reason why we can't! Though perhaps I should look more into *how* they do it rather than just blithely say that if they can do it, so can we. Interestingly here, third party repos just aren't the problem, the home repo is.

There is an alternative process that I like the idea of even less, but would solve some of the computational/effort side of things and generate others.

Now, MyBB has a facility whereby users can mark 'I have this installed'. Imagine we did something similar, but that we also asked users to tell us the site(s) they're running Wedge on, and that for mods they mark as 'I have this installed', it sends an HTTP POST notification to those forums to advise them that there are new plugins (and if we get 2+ failures to send, we stop sending notifications to those users' forums). That way, if they don't want to explicitly say what plugins they're using (it need not be public knowledge, of course), they can subscribe to regular thread updates as normal, but if they sign in and indicate they're using x, y and z, when any of those is updated, we tell them. Heck, we could even batch it to a run once a day or so.

It's just an idea. I'm sure it needs refinement.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 11:37 PM
Hmm... A push system?
Yeah, that could work...
Although I'd rather see it, once again, defined in the plugin's xml file.

- server installs plugin
- plugin tells server the URL of its fetcher system
- server pings fetcher by sending it a target URL
- fetcher records URL
- when the plugin is updated, fetched pings said URL
- if it fails, retry in 24 hours if it's a security update, or a week if not. (Or just 24 hours for everything.)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 11:40 PM
Quote
- server installs plugin
- plugin tells server the URL of its fetcher system
Which means everyone who isn't interested in setting up their own repository has to manually specify Wedge's plugin server, or would it just fall back on that anyway? (In which case there is no benefit to us directly in setting it up like that.)

And if the plugin server moves in that time, the plugins all have to be updated. (True, there's still a problem, but having it not part of the plugin mitigates it to a degree)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 11:50 PM
Hmm. I'm guessing that if authors don't set up a repo of sorts, it prolly means they don't bother with sending updates either. I know I craved for control with AeMe and stuff.

You know best anyway. You'll figure something out in no time ;)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 2nd, 2011, 11:54 PM
Quote
Hmm. I'm guessing that if authors don't set up a repo of sorts, it prolly means they don't bother with sending updates either. I know I craved for control with AeMe and stuff.
Control's a wonderful thing. It's why we did it with SimpleDesk, and why Niko did it for the arcade, project tools and wiki (amongst others), but at the same time it's a pain to come up with something that works for everyone else.

I think after I fix a couple of WedgeDesk bugs I've discovered that I'll go investigate and see what everyone else does, because while I still want the easiest/"best" user experience, I'm aware there are practical limitations that are levied, so I'm curious to see how others solve them.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 12:09 AM
At worst, we can always centralize everything on wedge.org and go get a powerful server. I don't believe we'll ever reach the number of users that SMF has, so it's probably not going to be a *horrible* problem. Plus, AeMe fetched an entire web page (well, about 20 or 30KB of text?) when Wedge will only retrieve a few bytes (plus headers).
And if we use your 'push' concept on wedge.org...
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 12:17 AM
Quote
I don't believe we'll ever reach the number of users that SMF has
That's as maybe but there's no harm in planning for the worst, is there?
Quote
Wedge will only retrieve a few bytes (plus headers).
Depends on push vs pull and the exact characteristics of each. Potentially, the pull could be quite expensive, not so much in terms of bandwidth but raw grunt on the server. If I were, for example, to have the query contain a list of plugin-ids, that's a list that has to be queried on the server. While it's not an enormous and expensive query, it's a lot heavier than just serving a static file which would be the preference there.

Doing it as a notification doesn't have the same burden on us, but it does put more information under our control to look after, i.e. a list of what plugins a user has.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 07:45 AM
Hmm. Out of my league now. ;)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 01:22 PM
Quote from Nao on November 2nd, 2011, 09:12 PM
BTW Pete, Aeva Media was already (since last April) modified to remove the auto-update code.
I mean I was expecting that if it was a load on the server, I should have received a request about it when I was active on Aeva -- i.e. over a year ago.
I don't think it was a problem on the server, when all these AEVAs were checking 1 time a day.
The problem arose because the server was offline for a day. By that point, all these AEVAS had begun checking for updates.
And not once a day. Multiple times per second. In every call to aeva_parse_bbc2. Because when the check fails, the timer is not reset. With all of them trying at once, even when the server came up, none could succeed. So they are all still trying and failing. Day and night. On every spider traverse. The hail of AEVA requests is still falling on the servers, but now the site and server teams have opened an umbrella to block the user agent and protect the file server.

Epic.

The task scheduler is always an option for future "phone home" activity. The task would run once a day, whether it succeeded or failed. The task could even log its success or failure, so that the user could find out what is going on.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 01:29 PM
Ah, a case of always working until it doesn't, and then the house of cards falls. Unfortunately been there too many times :(

The task scheduler actually isn't really an option, without creating a separate 1.1.x and 2.0 branch of Aeva, which considering its current status is somewhere between unnecessary and futile, as 1.1.x has no task scheduling facilities.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 01:50 PM
Quote from Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 01:29 PM
The task scheduler actually isn't really an option, without creating a separate 1.1.x and 2.0 branch of Aeva,
True. That's why I mentioned it for future mods.

I understand that Nao has fixed the problem in AEVA light, and it is much appreciated.
One of these days, the currently-installed AEVA lights will be uninstalled, and the AEVA hail will begin to slow down.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 02:03 PM
It also doesn't help that there's not a good, easy way to add scheduled tasks. (The only way to do it is a manual DB query during mod install, I did document it many months ago)

Still, there is a lesson to be learned and it's made me go back and think about other things too...
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 03:09 PM
Oh, my... I didn't even take this into account. Well, at the time I wrote the feature, the sm.org server was very solid so I never experienced a downtime and didn't bother to check further.
I'm deeply sorry about this oversight.[1]

As for the task scheduler -- just like Pete said. Being backwards compatible means making choices. (Plus, I never really got the hang of the task scheduler.)
 1. Somehow, it feels like a DDOS attack sent by a guy that was post-banned long ago and wanted a late revenge.... :^^;:
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 03:18 PM
Quote
As for the task scheduler -- just like Pete said. Being backwards compatible means making choices. (Plus, I never really got the hang of the task scheduler.)
The list of people who know and understand how to use the task scheduler is still in single digits, as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 03:22 PM
Quote from Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 03:18 PM
The list of people who know and understand how to use the task scheduler is still in single digits, as far as I'm aware.
Which is why we need to start documenting Wedge ASAP... There are so many features we added that are barely mentioned in these forums. It'd be a shame if they weren't put to use by plugins!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
I was thinking that, too.  Everybody on the SMF team seems to recognize that this was unintentional. I think that, initially, the server team saw it as DDOS.  I think your unique choice of user-agent may have helped narrow down the source of the problem.

The simplemachines.org servers do seem to be pretty reliable, but even the most expensive business-critical servers have downtime on occasion (remember the recent Blackberry outage?).  In this case, a well-planned, fairly routine hardware upgrade was complicated by a coincidental RAID controller malfunction on the file server.
So  a job which should have taken a couple of hours wound up taking something more like 24 hours.
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=457093.msg3198013#msg3198013

I hear your point, both of you, about the task scheduler not being so easy to use. I think it is a great feature, which should continue to get attention and improvements in SMF. Just a couple of general-purpose routines would save mod authors from having to roll their own timers.  I'll suggest it to the devs.

------------------------------

(we're typing at the same time)
And in Wedge too, of course.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 03:52 PM
Quote
Which is why we need to start documenting Wedge ASAP... There are so many features we added that are barely mentioned in these forums. It'd be a shame if they weren't put to use by plugins!
Now you know why I made a more sane interface for them through the plugin manager :lol: And, yes, I did document the entire plugin manager's behaviour as far as managing plugins went because authors would need to use it. It's a biiiiiiig post.
Quote
I think it is a great feature, which should continue to get attention and improvements in SMF. Just a couple of general-purpose routines would save mod authors from having to roll their own timers.  I'll suggest it to the devs.
Better still, abstract it away. Mod authors should not need to understand what the mechanics are in order to use it. All they need to understand is what is needed to make a task, the system should deal with physical creation and management of that. The plugin manager in Wedge does this already, and I documented how it works from the user point of view but I'll just grab the content (it's already public, I'm just spotlighting the relevant bit)
Quote from Arantor on September 20th, 2011, 03:01 AM
More hokey magic: scheduled tasks

I don't think this is something that's going to come up that often, but it's convoluted enough to do manually that I wanted to make it easier.

Creating a scheduled task in the system is as simple as adding this block:
Code: [Select]
<scheduledtasks>
<task runevery="1" runfreq="day" name="shd_scheduled" file="$addondir/src/WedgeDesk-Scheduled" />
</scheduledtasks>

One task per <task> block, and it should be fairly obvious that again, you're indicating how often the task should run, what function to call and a file to load that contains that function.

(NB: Right now the task won't receive a name in the admin panel properly, I haven't yet quite decided how I want to fix that, but rest assured, I'll provide examples once I figure it out.)
That's in our equivalent of package-info.xml. The plugin manager[1] adds the relevant row on enable, turns it off on disable, removes it entirely on uninstall. The mod author never has to worry or care about inserting a row, or cleaning up after themselves.


There is also a secondary subsystem in Wedge that is available to authors though not through this interface, whereby they can schedule future-dated one-off tasks to be carried out. Worth bearing in mind (and again, it's mentioned in the changelog, so it's not like I'm giving away any secrets)
 1. At the time the post was written it was still called the add-on manager.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 03:55 PM
Quote from AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
I was thinking that, too.  Everybody on the SMF team seems to recognize that this was unintentional. I think that, initially, the server team saw it as DDOS.  I think your unique choice of user-agent may have helped narrow down the source of the problem.
A unique user agent is always the responsible thing to do when your software connects to some other server. (I'm just upset that I didn't think to suggest banning it when I heard about the server load issue. I only thought of banning the destination URL...)
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 07:06 PM
The plugin manager xml interface to task manager seems like a good idea.
I also like the fact that you've got an "enable/disable hook" for every installed plugin.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 07:19 PM
Oh, it runs so much deeper than that. I originally implemented add/remove hook as an extension to the existing packman code, months and months ago, but I realised that it wasn't how I wanted things to operate.

So I tore the rulebook up and designed a structure that really pushes and emphasises hooks. There's no version checking done, for example, unless file edits are done, because the plugin system works on the principle that the hook's existence is sufficient. You don't need to worry about version numbers etc. if the hooks are present and tests are done at install time to validate that the required hooks are available. On top of that, a plugin can indicate that it provides hooks of its own giving you an implicit dependency system.

On top of that, the plugin file also indicating things like settings means that the plugin manager can clean them up on uninstall. As I learned the hard way, authors don't generally do things thoroughly, and mods that do proper housekeeping to clean up after themselves are unfortunately rare - so I made sure to take as much away from that as possible.

Default values of settings are declared (though due to updateSettings()'s behaviour, default values of 0 aren't updated to the system) and so can be used to clean up on uninstall, plus it's possible to intimate language support - multi-language readmes were supported in SMF 2.0 RC2 onwards but I don't think anyone ever used them. But now, if multi-language readmes are given, they're firmly used (so it encourages people to use them)

Each element of the plugin manager was designed around things I observed as flaws with SMF's mods, and things I learned from doing SimpleDesk.[1] I'm not saying it will work for everyone but I feel like it's working for us. I've not found many problems in writing plugins and I find the way everything is held together to be more reliable in the long run.
 1. There are some serious low-level tweaks in there like modifying the language editor to list the mod language files.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
tl:dr? Wedge rocks your socks off!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: pgordemer on November 3rd, 2011, 07:33 PM
Nao, are you also planning on porting the changes to the 2.10 version for the ones that paid for it? I have a bunch of customers that fall into that category.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 07:37 PM
It's Friendly Competition time! Bring it on!
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Arantor on November 3rd, 2011, 07:40 PM
Quote from pgordemer on November 3rd, 2011, 07:33 PM
Nao, are you also planning on porting the changes to the 2.10 version for the ones that paid for it? I have a bunch of customers that fall into that category.
As stated earlier in this thread, Aeva Media (which includes 2.10) doesn't have the auto update, and it's been documented for months how to get the youtu.be update (which may have already been in 2.10 anyway)
Quote from AngelinaBelle on November 3rd, 2011, 07:37 PM
It's Friendly Competition time! Bring it on!
That's why I sent a post to a fellow team member expressing my concern at some of the plans about hook use in SMF 2.1 because they don't seem to take into account performance vs elegance (declaring it being a 'no brainer', which it certainly isn't) and don't allow for any safety net. In our case, hooks don't get added to the to-run list until the page starts, to verify the plugin is still present.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 3rd, 2011, 08:08 PM
Quote from pgordemer on November 3rd, 2011, 07:33 PM
Nao, are you also planning on porting the changes to the 2.10 version for the ones that paid for it? I have a bunch of customers that fall into that category.
The sitelist file in AeMe and Aeva Lite 7.2 is compatible with AeMe 2.x's. Just get the file and upload it, problem solved...
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: IchBin on November 7th, 2011, 06:13 PM
Wasn't able to make it back here because of some circumstances I found myself in. Just wanted to say thanks Nao for updating the mod.
Title: Re: So, SMF has declared the cold war...
Post by: Nao on November 7th, 2011, 06:18 PM
And thanks for your understanding ;)