Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Off-topic => Topic started by: Arantor on May 28th, 2013, 04:14 PM

Title: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 28th, 2013, 04:14 PM
Carrying on from my tour around vB 3.8.7(http://wedge.org/pub/off/7953/system-visitations-vb-3-8-7/), I took a look last night at MyBB. I thought for about half a second about learning just enough to go troll MyBB but that seems a bit much :niark:

OK, so I hear a lot of MyBB fanboys squealing about how much better MyBB is than SMF, and not once have I ever heard why it is so, so I thought I'd try and figure it out for myself.

First reaction
I'm looking at the default theme and my very first reaction is "This reminds me of vB 3.8.x". It's not an exact knock-off but somehow it reminds me more of vBulletin than anything else does; phpBB and SMF have very much their own identities, even back in SMF 1.1.x days.

The second thing is how cluttered it all seems - as per first screenshot. MyBB claims to support a threaded view but I'm not sure it works properly or if it does, it isn't working properly for me, as I can't consistently get something to be a nested child. Strike one for MyBB.

And HOLY FUCK IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY... I know a lot of people dislike the whole 'return to the board' thing but then we have the interstitial screen, the infamous 'Thank you for posting, you will now be returned to...' with an option to dive out to the board. Eeeeew. Fortunately, it is disableable in the admin panel, but still...

OK, one thing I did see that impressed me, AJAXive quick reply. But that's not that much right now. Other than that it's not really much different; though the layout of information above the post itself makes it clumsy IMO, if you have an inch+ header on top of every post to put the user information in.


Admin panel
OK, so let's take a look through the admin panel.

The front page is not really surprising - admin notes, some interesting mini-stats (MyBB/PHP/SQL versions, number of threads/posts/users, subdivided by totals, new and awaiting approval)

Oh, that's weird... there are two different themes in the admin panel. Classic and Sharepoint, I'm using Sharepoint because it looks slightly nicer to me.

Then I see something learned from vB: a page whose sole purpose is to link you to page after page of settings. They're very long pages, too... see attached. I'm all for comprehensive options - and the options seem pretty comprehensive without going overboard, but the layout needs some serious work IMHO. There's only 25 options on this page, but you can see how long that page is. And there are 21 pages of just settings, if that makes sense.

Most of it is pretty straightforward stuff until I see this particular option in the Server and Optimization page:
Quote
Enable XMLHttp request features?
This will enable or disable the XMLHttp request features.

() Yes            () No
Say whaaaaaaaat? And no, there's nice help popup or anything to explain it... And there's a typo elsewhere on that page >_<

And WTF... I've seen this elsewhere but it truly makes no sense to me: Add New Setting. You can actually add new items to the admin panel directly, but unless you're actually doing something with it, it seems a bit redundant and if you are doing something, you might as well make a plugin out of it.

That leads me to something else that *really* grates on me: display ordering. Various controls give you the option to set their order (like custom fields being ordered, settings/setting groups)... and you set this by putting in numbers. Want a new custom field to be the second one down? Put in a display of 2 then order the rest to move them down too... because that's a nice user experience.

Other stuff seems fairly straightforward, though I slightly baulk at the 'MyCode' new bbc options. You create it with straight up regex, their example:
Regular Expression
Code: [Select]
Example: \[b\](.*?)\[/b\]

Replacement
Code: [Select]
Example: <strong>$1</strong>

A history lesson: SMF used to do their bbcode with this back in 1.0. One of the main reasons 1.1 dropped the old ubbc function and replaced it with the scary beast that is parse_bbc is because of ReDoS vulnerabilities. If you have regular expressions, it's possible to craft a post that can mess with them to cause the PCRE library to poop itself and create incredibly slow-parsing situations which can DOS the server (hence ReDoS - regex denial of service)


All in all, it doesn't strike me as being anything that exciting and certainly not being deserving of the fanboyism... hell, even the Apple vs Android fanboys have valid arguments in their favour but this doesn't seem like it.

In fact the only thing I can see that has any advantage so far is the plugin system but when I looked at the plugin architecture... whooo... my exact comment last night was that it blows monkey chunks compared to Wedge, it looks like the plugin's actual file must be loaded at startup to initialise it (as opposed to us which doesn't explicitly have to load anything, just validate its existence)

What I will say is that it does have a bunch of things in the core, like thread prefixes (where you pick a prefix out of a set list), as well as stuff like announcements (setting predefined messages in a board above all the topics like super-pinned topics)[1]

Permissions are weird though, see attached. You set the default permissions per group elsewhere (where it's a simple tickbox, yes/no) and set per board overrides here. There doesn't seem to be deny permissions so it is simply allow/disallow as we know them and you drag the permissions between the two or you can press the 'Set Custom Permissions'. It does seem very clunky compared to SMF's let alone what I've talked about for Wedge.

So yeah, pretty much as expected, MyBB stacks up reasonably well to SMF in terms of features but the admin navigation is ugleeeeee... and yet it's much like how XenForo does it and that's considered good... I dunno what goes through these peoples' minds sometimes.
 1. Which I might add to Wedge, though before I saw it in MyBB
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on May 28th, 2013, 06:01 PM
Ugly is a kind word ahah
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: godboko71 on May 29th, 2013, 12:17 AM
MyBB almost requires a premium theme to be useable on the front end. The backend is like a bad version of vB 3.8. It works though so who am I to complain
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 12:21 AM
Yup, that is the underlying thought I've had about it. I have no idea why it's so popular or why its fans are so militant. I can't help but think there's almost something like Stockholm Syndrome :/
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: godboko71 on May 29th, 2013, 12:27 AM
Yep and reading their forum makes SMFs support forum look friendly
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 12:28 AM
So I've heard. I find it interesting given how the people who claim MyBB's support is lovely are the people who bitch loudest about SMF's.

I can't wait for that when it happens here :niark:
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: xrunner on May 29th, 2013, 02:35 AM
Quote from Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 12:28 AM
I can't wait for that when it happens here :niark:
It'll be interesting to see how the support forum for Wedge evolves as compares to the others. Tough love or be nice at all costs, or something in-between.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: godboko71 on May 29th, 2013, 02:38 AM
"Support by real people with real attitudes"
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: xrunner on May 29th, 2013, 02:43 AM
Quote from godboko71 on May 29th, 2013, 02:38 AM
"Support by real people with real attitudes"
Ha! That's very well said. :)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 03:10 AM
I'm waiting for the day when someone mouths off that I don't know what I'm talking about. Because you just know it's going to happen.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Wanchope on May 29th, 2013, 04:41 PM
Some time ago, I just decided to just seat back here and read as much as possible but the truth is - silent is boring.

I am using mybb and here is what I have to say
Mybb default theme for 1.6.8 cannot be used by any serious webmaster, it's nothing but a joke. How can they be so backward? I have to get a premium theme.
I like the stats summary in the admin panel a lot, SMF should consider this. The admin panel is ugly and so is smf.
Apart from the default theme, the forum is unusable without doing some edits like
1. The threaded move - removed instantly (why are they still leaving it in the core)
2. Thread ratings stars - removed as it makes the forum looks childish.
I did many manual edits that I can't really upgrade to the latest version because I am not free now to re edit after upgrade.
Server Resources
My forum is hosted in shared server and I find myself breaking my hosts tos because of the server resources the forum is consuming, (I'm getting only about 50k - 60k hits/month as my forum is still new). The guy that hosted me have to upgrade my account to a better plan though am still paying the shared hosting fee, he's just a great guy. What I want to point out is that mybb is killing my server resources, most time users will see mysql error... Pls mysql.sock bla bla bla.
I was reading how great the version 1.8 is so I downloaded it and installed it on wamp. The only clear progress I noticed is the improvement on the default theme but smf 2.1 default the he is far better (in appearance) than it.
The mod I liked a lot at mybb is mybb Seo mod and it's free. As off there support, they are average and I have to say it's unfair to be comparing them with smf as smf has the best support community around because almost every user of smf is ready to help one another and smf have great guys like N3rve, K@,and yes Arantor! The only support I know is good in mybb is one guy with username - polerbear (?). Most others looks like American teenagers looking for some few bucks :)
A yes mybb handles themes much better than smf.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 06:17 PM
Well, threaded is gone in 2.0. (Just like it is gone in vB 4 and IPB 3.4)[1]

They're also adding "SEO friendly" (blah) URLs by default and some other stuff that just makes me feel all meh about it.

I get what you mean about premium MyBB themes, but to a point the same is true of SMF, most of the free themes are fairly dull and insipid.

As far as our admin panel is concerned, it is a bit different to SMF's. I actually don't like MyBB's admin panel. It's organised but it's stark, even with the Sharepoint theme and having a huge page for 25 options seems intimidating. I would draw your attention to http://wedge.org/pub/feats/7097/don-t-know-if-i-shared-it-publicly-or-not/ - while it's a picture from last year using the old Wedge default theme (yes, we've been through more than one already, that's Wine as opposed to Weaving), the sentiment is still exactly the same. (I haven't changed it that significantly in the intervening time, though there are more icons and stuff than before)

There is also the thing I mocked up as http://wedge.org/pub/feats/7159/some-admin-menu-changes/msg274290/#msg274290 though it has a few more options in it now IIRC.

As far as resources go, so far Wedge looks like it might be lighter in some respects and heavier in others compared to MyBB, but we're still in active development and changing big things so that may well change.

SMF doesn't have me any more, btw.

What do you mean that 'MyBB handles themes much better than SMF' exactly?
 1. As an aside, we've talked about adding it in Wedge because it does have a place and a use, but the UI invariably sucks.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Wanchope on May 29th, 2013, 06:37 PM
Most smf mods needs manual code edits to work in custom themes and some leave some mess after uninstallation.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 06:39 PM
So that's a mod problem not a theme problem. It's not a problem with Wedge since mods cannot make any code edits whatsoever. And our plugin system runs faster and more cleanly than what I've seen on MyBB's.

(Did you know we run several plugins on here?)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Wanchope on May 29th, 2013, 06:47 PM
I was thinking it was due to smf clean xhtml format, you miss a tag,it labels you as a criminal.
Most smf mods works on default theme but gives error in custom themes.
And yes smf 2.1 theme is just BEUTY!
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 06:59 PM
Well, it's not SMF being like that, it's the sites that insist on proper XHTML... which can have SEO issues (and will be just as much of an issue in ANY system)

Of course most mods work on the default theme... they were designed for the default SMF theme, and yes, if a custom theme does something custom it's going to be a problem... this is expected. It's part of the design, to a point.

SMF 2.0 just doesn't offer the functionality to support doing it with hooks, 2.1 isn't a lot better, Elkarte and Wedge are much stronger (especially Wedge) in that department.

2.1's theme, Curve II, isn't actually that nice. I find it quite bland, actually.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Wanchope on May 29th, 2013, 08:42 PM
The issue of XHTML is as old as meta tags which I believes have no value to SEO of present. It's just Google trying to impose their self righteousness on others. Heavy websites like Facebook does not pass the test.
I cannot say how mush wedge will use server resources because I have not tested it but since it have SMF structure, it will do much better than MYBB in server resources consumption and performances. Mybb with many plugin in shared server with 50k hits/month, your host company will just ban you. I am posting this because they Mybb fan boys says that mybb consumes less resources than SMF.
As of Elkarte, haven't heard of them, tried to visit the website and got this
Quote
Error 403

We're sorry, but we could not fulfill your request for / on this server.

You do not have permission to access this server. Before trying again, run anti-virus and anti-spyware software and remove any viruses and spyware from your computer.

Your technical support key is: 29ce-0f1b-2b02-1b1f

You can use this key to fix this problem yourself.

If you are unable to fix the problem yourself, please contact mailer at elkarte.net and be sure to provide the technical support key shown above.
- Some webmasters just keep on committing the same 'sin'.
SMF2.1 these looks neat and the navigation is just beauty the only minus is not showing the posts under username in display template.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 09:08 PM
Quote
It's just Google trying to impose their self righteousness on others. Heavy websites like Facebook does not pass the test.
No, it isn't. Websites actually handling tags properly is an issue which predates Google.
Quote
I am posting this because they Mybb fan boys says that mybb consumes less resources than SMF.
I have yet to see an istance of where this is true.
Quote
As of Elkarte, haven't heard of them, tried to visit the website and got this
You were blocked by Bad Behaviour. Looking up the support code, that says your IP address was found on the httpBL blacklist.
Quote
- Some webmasters just keep on committing the same 'sin'.
SMF2.1 these looks neat and the navigation is just beauty the only minus is not showing the posts under username in display template.
Hover over the username.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Wanchope on May 29th, 2013, 09:34 PM
I know about username hover but I think post should be shown while others 'hidden'.
The bad behavior mode is not good, in my country, the ISPs are sharing ip address and rotating it among millions of users. If Tony uses IP address 20.201.237.20 in spam software like xrummer.
Millions of people who will use IP address 20.201.237.20 will be blocked. Thant's why auto anti spam blocker is always a bad idea.
Another reason why I like Mybb is the ability to edit the template files in the admin panel and the shortcodes are so easy to work on.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 29th, 2013, 09:57 PM
Quote
I know about username hover but I think post should be shown while others 'hidden'.
Yes, but why? Note that there are plenty of people who dislike the posts being shown as well as preferring the lack of clutter.
Quote
The bad behavior mode is not good, in my country, the ISPs are sharing ip address and rotating it among millions of users. If Tony uses IP address 20.201.237.20 in spam software like xrummer.
Millions of people who will use IP address 20.201.237.20 will be blocked. Thanks why auto anti spam blocker is always a bad idea.
It's a good thing then that we have Bad Behaviour without the httpBL component, isn't it? Almost like we knew in advance that it was a problem.
Quote
Another reason why I like Mybb is the ability to edit the template files in the admin panel
This strikes me as a very bad thing. Aside from performance, objection number 1 is that you can screw up your site and not leave yourself the ability to fix it without manually editing the database. Objection number 2 is that it still presumes you're doing this ridiculous thing of find/replace on templates (which is really no different to SMF, just presented slightly differently) and objection 3 is that there is actually a security risk of having executable code in a place that you don't have total control over.
Quote
and the shortcodes are so easy to work on.
Ugh, I looked at that and thought it fragile. I'd also note that SMF and Wedge bbcode is inherently much more powerful than what amounts to simple find/replace bbcode. Also note that SMF back in 1.0 days did pretty much the same as what MyBB does until they changed it to what SMF and Wedge do now, because it was discovered that a single carefully written post could cause a minor denial of service attack. (As I mentioned in my post.)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Norodo on May 30th, 2013, 12:27 AM
I have a couple of forums running MyBB. It's a functional system really. It's easy to modify without changing underlying code. I prefer it to SMF because there are less strange things like UTF breaking database backups and less code editing needed for plugins in general. Search works wonders in the adminCP too. All in all I like it, but it's hardly great.

Oh and yes, of course, I am using homemade themes.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2013, 12:34 AM
Quote
It's easy to modify without changing underlying code
Such as?
Quote
I prefer it to SMF because there are less strange things like UTF breaking database backups
Wedge is UTF-8 only and we ditched the buggy backup ages ago. Tools for the job, people!
Quote
less code editing needed for plugins in general
Yeah, I won't deny that the situation SMF has right now is messed up. 2.1 doesn't exactly fix it either.
Quote
Search works wonders in the adminCP too.
SMF's needs work. Wedge's is better.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Norodo on May 30th, 2013, 12:41 AM
Quote from Arantor on May 30th, 2013, 12:34 AM
Quote
It's easy to modify without changing underlying code
Such as?
It goes back to the whole plugin thing, along with the BBcode editor that very well might be a security flaw, but it's pretty nifty and easy to use. I've also found the default theme is a nice boilerplate for making new themes, but YMMV.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on May 30th, 2013, 12:43 AM
Yeah, bbcode editor is on the todo list for Wedge, only making use of the power SMF gave it originally ;)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Auk on August 1st, 2013, 10:48 AM
I had one forum using MyBB. I actually like the software. I like the ability to just drop in a file, enable the plugin in mybb. I created 1 simple plugin that hides IP addresses. I can't remember why I didn't used MyBB. I was advised to stay away from phpBB3 :(

EDIT. I meant to say "why I didn't used SMF".
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2013, 05:45 PM
You do realise that's how the plugin system in Wedge works, right? ;)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Auk on August 1st, 2013, 10:58 PM
I'm well aware of how plugins should be done in wedge. :) But it's not out yet ;)

Speaking of BBcodes, many things I don't like about trying to make a parser out of it, I wonder if wedge will be using something similar to  DOMDocument. That's like the sanest example I can think of for doing BBcodes.

There is also another way using string search, left-to-right; finding if an end-tag occurs or not, and then adding end tag.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2013, 11:04 PM
What do you mean 'should be done'? That's the bit I'm not happy with :P There are quite literally dozens of plugins for Wedge already and they all work this way...

No, Wedge will not be using something similar to DOMDocument for its bbc parsing, we've inherited SMF's parser which does something similar to what you're suggesting but it's a lot more complicated because there are different kinds of tags (some don't have mandatory closing tags e.g. the hr bbcode) and there will be an editor for such things in the admin panel when I figure out how to make a UI that doesn't suck.
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Auk on August 1st, 2013, 11:10 PM
Quote
What do you mean 'should be done'?
The small details about how we shouldn't need to modify files, change write permissions, etc. The nifty hooks.

The way I've done it is always xml compliant. Not "always" good enough to keep a smile on validator.w3.org's face. So I thought of using that with Tidy (which appears to be great, seems too much just for that bbcode feature.) It's not available immediately when I install php 5.4 on my Linuxmint distro based on Ubuntu. So that worried me. I do not like how most bbcode parsers do not allow you to nest as deep as you like. There are 3rd party php codes/plugins that does a great job at that, and even with sanitizing.. Just a little bit iffy on using those and wanted a much cleaner approach (And then there is licensing to be concerned of for some.)
Title: Re: System visitations: MyBB 1.6.10
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2013, 11:12 PM
SMF's parser doesn't have any such limitations on nesting depth from what I remember. It does try to protect nesting too and keep it all straight - and with the out-of-the-box stuff it shouldn't be possible to break it. But we have some special tags that need to be thoroughly tested for that stuff.

Actually the bigger problem right now is the preparser that tries to 'fix' things and sometimes gets it wrong to interesting effect.