Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Features => Topic started by: Arantor on January 29th, 2011, 11:05 PM

Title: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on January 29th, 2011, 11:05 PM
I spent a little time recently looking at WP's admin panel and some of the funtionality that I never really looked before which I do have to wonder about, for those who come from WP.

For the majority of people coming from WP, the key things that they're most worried about are SEO, ease of posting/attaching files and add-ons - in that order. SEO we can do something with - and I do even wonder about full on 'SEO' URLs (i.e. no ids present in the URLs) for that, but that's something I'm not quite so worried about.


So, the features that jump out of me from WP:
* Posting from email (not sure *how* it does it but I get the impression it doesn't have any of the usual fuss related to posting via email that you can trivially find on sm.org, with email configuration - the admin panel talks about just using POP3, which means I think we're talking regular lookups to the POP3 server)

* XML-RPC - for creating other clients (it probably isn't a bad idea to have something suitable for this purpose)

* Threaded comments

* OMG OMG TEH LEET SEO
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on February 23rd, 2011, 02:57 PM
Sooooo... thoughts?

SEO goes without saying, plus we already have PURLs for that, so that's mostly covered. I will go back and fix things like meta tags and descriptions at some point though, would be good to get that nailed down properly, I think. (It's one less group of OMG YOUZ HAZ TO FIX DIS SHIT requests)

XML-RPC strikes me as one of those cute things but that it can definitely wait.

Threaded comments - this is probably the one thing I'm most on the fence about. Yes, they can be good, but even if something is naturally threaded I've yet to see a decent interface for it actually implemented and still be efficient.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on February 23rd, 2011, 03:50 PM
Quote from Arantor on February 23rd, 2011, 02:57 PM
Sooooo... thoughts?
I think at this point, about half of my 250 tabs are old Wedge topics I have yet to reply :P
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XML-RPC strikes me as one of those cute things but that it can definitely wait.
I never implemented it in Noisen (although I started work on that by reading through the specs long ago), and no one ever complained. It is, however, something we'll need to lure the WordPress masses to us -- pingbacks, things like that. They can be dealt as proper comments after all. (Only, grayed out or something.)
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Threaded comments - this is probably the one thing I'm most on the fence about. Yes, they can be good, but even if something is naturally threaded I've yet to see a decent interface for it actually implemented and still be efficient.
It's always going to be a problem.
As you know (but not everyone reading this may know), I implemented threaded replies to SMF many years ago, and even shared my code at the time on the forums. However, most people considered that threaded replies were a thing of the past. Mainly, I *think* that we should record parent-child relationships between posts, *but* keep them in chronological order. That is -- relationships can be used in several cases. If we split a topic's message, we can automatically split all children posts as well. If we delete a message, we can specify whether there are replies to it, and ask whether they should be deleted or left alone. Things like that...

I do not believe in threaded replies as a usable representation for a daily use. *However*, if comments are set to use as little space as possible, and blogs are set to show all comments on the same page, then it could be done. The only remaining issue then becomes the search for new posts -- but because we have both the time and relationship of every single message, we can easily switch between both systems.

All in all, I was going to say "screw it", but my conclusion is that we should add some minimal support for it because it's likely we're going to have requests to add it later, and people will be glad we thought of it ahead of time by storing parent-child relationships :P
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on February 23rd, 2011, 04:01 PM
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I never implemented it in Noisen (although I started work on that by reading through the specs long ago), and no one ever complained. It is, however, something we'll need to lure the WordPress masses to us -- pingbacks, things like that. They can be dealt as proper comments after all. (Only, grayed out or something.)
Yes, pingbacks and trackbacks are cute, and it won't kill me to ignore them. But what does strike me is that it's what allows the WP mobile app and the LiveJournal mobile app to work, not to mention the raft of clients for the latter - if you have that interface you can construct all kinds of clients to work on it.
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Mainly, I *think* that we should record parent-child relationships between posts, *but* keep them in chronological order.
That implies you ever do so in the first place; right now it's flat modelled, meaning a reply is a reply to the thread - and we should not be inferring that a reply to the thread is a reply to the last post in it, because it isn't necessarily.
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If we split a topic's message, we can automatically split all children posts as well.
Based on the above, that's why you get a 'split this message, this message and everything after it, or pick 'n' choose' option.
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If we delete a message, we can specify whether there are replies to it, and ask whether they should be deleted or left alone. Things like that...
You can sort of do that now, only with a couple more steps (split, then delete) but that still implies recording the data for it.
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I do not believe in threaded replies as a usable representation for a daily use. *However*, if comments are set to use as little space as possible, and blogs are set to show all comments on the same page, then it could be done.
*nods* Invariably though there are likely to be more comments than fit on a single page on any active site, so you get the problem that pagination occurs and *really* screws up how you handle getting comments, or you screw performance.
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All in all, I was going to say "screw it", but my conclusion is that we should add some minimal support for it because it's likely we're going to have requests to add it later, and people will be glad we thought of it ahead of time by storing parent-child relationships
Then we need to build the UI to support it too, to allow for 'replying to x post' rather than replying to the thread as a whole, or some other method of actually being able to record where we're replying to.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on July 25th, 2011, 12:05 AM
I never followed up on this thretopic.

Anyway, in addition to the posts above, these are of interest:
?topic=6134 (in the private area)
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=255510.msg1665654#msg1665654

The latter being my patch code for adding threaded view to SMF.

I'm trying to find a 'right' way to do this, I mean in terms of usability.

Maybe this could be a clue: if there are new posts, switch to flat mode. If there are no new posts, switch to threaded mode by default. Guests will have threaded by default.
Of course this threaded view could be disabled at admin level, or maybe at board level (e.g. blog vs forum).
I don't know... It's just that I've been fascinated by this for quite some time (since I made an implementation in early 2008), so it's probably got some interest, even if it's not a 'mandatory' feature in my opinion.

Also re: beginning of the topic:
- XML-RPC, what's your current opinion on this? Our discussion on trackbacks made me want to implement this without using that protocol. I still think it'd be best to avoid it, but we could 'simply' add it, and allow blog authors to be the only ones allowed to view a trackback.
- Posting from email: did you look into their code, then? Is there any magic behind it?
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: hartiberlin on July 26th, 2011, 12:04 AM
Hi Nao,
full SEO SEF compatible URLs is a must today.

So it would be cool if your Wedge would be better than  SMF 2.0 and PortaMX 1.4 together.

So what about a Portal ?
Will this be integrated ?

Will you have any feature like the AdMod or simular,
so we can put ads between postings ?
Ads at the borders don´t work much, so it is a must to have them
between the postings.
(for commercial boards)

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on July 26th, 2011, 12:11 AM
Dear God, please let's not have this debate again, since I swear nothing has changed in months since I last answered these questions for you.
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full SEO SEF compatible URLs is a must today.
No it isn't. I swear I've told you this multiple times that it isn't 'a must'. It IS however implemented because it makes the URLs look nice, but search engines are more than capable of managing to get content with dynamic URLs. Hell, they can even manage JavaScript based URLs now if the URL is formatted correctly. It was important YEARS ago.
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So what about a Portal ?
Will this be integrated ?
There is a sidebar. It has some content. We aren't exactly planning on building a full portal in, mostly because as stated many many times, we're building primarily what we want to build, and hopefully that'll fit in with what other people want. You, however, I already know are more demanding than most having already answered this question specifically for you - and other questions like it - on Noisen.
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Will you have any feature like the AdMod or simular,
so we can put ads between postings ?
Don't make me find the post where I already answered this for you on Noisen. Survey says probably not, just like I said months ago. And please don't try and tell me it's a "requirement", plenty of sites run just fine without ads.


:edit: There are many more important things to be working on than crap like these things.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: hartiberlin on July 26th, 2011, 12:24 AM
I have read and heard, that Full SEO URLs help the page rank indexing in Google.

Well, hopefully you will have some MOD authors,
that will code the missing MODs then.

Maybe Feline will make a portal for it,
if you don´t laugh at her red hair anymore ?? :eheheh:

I will try out Wedge , when it will be available on a test domain and
let you know, what I think.

Many thanks for your hard work.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on July 26th, 2011, 12:31 AM
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I have read and heard, that Full SEO URLs help the page rank indexing in Google.
Hasn't been true in years, sory.
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Well, hopefully you will have some MOD authors,
that will code the missing MODs then.
Yes, I expect to write some mods too. Fortunately, I'm also planning on making the mod system more rugged.
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Maybe Feline will make a portal for it,
if you don´t laugh at her red hair anymore ??
I never laughed at her, except at her ridiculous demands after we invited her.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Dismal Shadow on July 26th, 2011, 01:48 PM
And I am going to repost this especially for you stefan and I suggest you read it well.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=427913.0

Out in all, this should be in the FAQ and sticked because people are gonna come in and ask the same goddamn questions regarding whether Wedge will have SEO because it won't, not ever.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on July 26th, 2011, 01:50 PM
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ask the same goddamn questions regarding whether Wedge will have SEO because it won't, not ever.
No, that's not what's been said.

Wedge will include some of the 'SEO tricks' but only because I'm that pissed off with people asking for things that they think will help that I'm prepared to implement them just to make people STFU.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: karlbenson on July 26th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Personally I find SEO urls to be URL ABUSE.  I like to see anyone using urls with more than 4 words in the path given negative ranking by Google.  But hey thats just a matter of opinion. I much prefer a simple ?id=3333

I can confirm what Arantor and Nao have said re SEOURLS.  These days they make next to ZERO difference.
ALL search engines can read dynamic urls (eg the ones with a question mark in) just as well as seo urls.

The only circumstances where I have noticed that SEO urls appear to help is where someone backlinks to your site without using a title eg
http://www.mortons-solicitors.co.uk

When a title is used it doesn't appear to help.
Mortons Solicitors(http://www.mortons-solicitors.co.uk)

then those words in the url appear to be useful keywords.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on July 27th, 2011, 01:18 AM
Karl? Is that really you...?
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 11:33 PM

Ah yes! Just noticed your pm. Well, welcome! I thought we'd lost you for good ;)
Will reply after I'm done with my movie. Am on my iPod right now.
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 11:39 PM

Movie dragged on. Will answer tomorrow then.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: karlbenson on July 31st, 2011, 05:49 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on July 27th, 2011, 01:18 AM
Karl? Is that really you...?
Bit of an existential question that one, but certainly I am karl aka regularexpression.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2011, 04:21 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on July 25th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Also re: beginning of the topic:
- XML-RPC, what's your current opinion on this? Our discussion on trackbacks made me want to implement this without using that protocol. I still think it'd be best to avoid it, but we could 'simply' add it, and allow blog authors to be the only ones allowed to view a trackback.
- Posting from email: did you look into their code, then? Is there any magic behind it?
Bump!
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Antes on August 11th, 2011, 12:30 AM
May i ask you to check Yoast SEO plug-in.

Well the truth is i don't care about core functions in plug-in. But it has tip system like;

Wait your post is under 300 words, consider it to move upper 300.
or Your link has stop-words consider removing it.

and my page visits increased by %10 after those tips.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on August 11th, 2011, 12:45 AM
Stop words?
Posted: August 11th, 2011, 12:44 AM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on August 1st, 2011, 04:21 PM
Quote from Nao/Gilles on July 25th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Also re: beginning of the topic:
- XML-RPC, what's your current opinion on this? Our discussion on trackbacks made me want to implement this without using that protocol. I still think it'd be best to avoid it, but we could 'simply' add it, and allow blog authors to be the only ones allowed to view a trackback.
- Posting from email: did you look into their code, then? Is there any magic behind it?
Bump!
And bump.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Antes on August 11th, 2011, 12:53 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_words

aka trash words
Well, XML-RPC is very good thing. I don't have tablet PC or very smart phone - i used it only once on my blog. It really cute. Also some auto-blogging (posting) systems using XML-RPC too.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on August 11th, 2011, 09:20 AM
XML-RPC makes no difference whether or not you're using a tablet. What it does do is make remote bridges easier, for example WP has multiple non-web-based clients that all use the XML-RPC interfaces to make posts. Having XML-RPC would make it easier for external tools to prod Wedge into doing things, since it's designed for external tool usage.

Trackbacks are just one use of XML-RPC and if a WP site links to a Wedge one, WP would use an XML-RPC call to post said trackback.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on August 11th, 2011, 10:35 AM
I really think we don't need to use XML-RPC for trackbacks... Rather work on the REFERER. That's basically the difference between opt-in and opt-out... :P
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on August 11th, 2011, 10:37 AM
It's automated when a second site sends a message to the first - the request is made without referer AFAIK...
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on August 11th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Yeah but I'd rather see sites that actually bring traffic than sites that use or abuse XML rpc to spam or just get backlinks.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Arantor on August 11th, 2011, 01:25 PM
So you're going to build a whitelist of such sites? Or a blacklist of sites you don't want? Either way the methodology is a bit flawed.

There is a module in Bad Behaviour for trackback posting, but it's not bulletproof - but the referer is not generally supplied, even in spam cases.
Title: Re: Blogging features
Post by: Nao on August 11th, 2011, 01:44 PM
As i said: admins only by default. So it's not a problem.