Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Topic started by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 01:49 AM

Title: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 01:49 AM
So I ran into a headache with bans.

In Wedge[1] viewing of IP address is its own permission. This is, generally, a good thing because of all the people who want to hide IP addresses every which way.

But banning is a separate permission. Now, while it's somewhat unlikely, I can envisage the situation where someone has the power to ban but no ability to see IP addresses, which means it's somewhat dangerous giving them IP addresses as a ban target since they won't have that information.

This leads me to one of three things:

1. Requiring both view-any IP and ban permission to actually ban. (Seems to me it will cause support topics)

2. Making it so the ban UI doesn't allow them to create/edit IP/hostname bans if they don't have the power to see IP addresses. (Complicated)

3. Not having the IP visibility permission at all and tying it to the ban permission.

See, here's the thing. I have no idea what the point of having IP addresses visible anywhere is (not even in the likes of track IP or even moderation log) if you can't do anything with it. Seems to me that the only thing that actually really makes use of it is banning, and if you can ban, you can see all IP addresses - and if you can't ban, you can't see them. I'm struggling to envisage any case at all where you would need IP addresses but not the power to ban, more importantly what can you do with an IP address if you *can't* ban anyway?
 1. SMF doesn't do it this way, it ties the permission to moderate_forum.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: live627 on December 17th, 2012, 02:17 AM
Quote
what can you do with an IP address if you *can't* ban anyway?
Let's say one sees suspicious activity  from a user. They have the IP with which to look up and determine iff that address is used for malicious wrongdoings. They then can report the activity to a higher-up, who may be offline at the time.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 02:27 AM
If you see suspicious activity, you can report it to a higher-up without an IP address. Either way even if you spot said activity, you'd still have to report it higher up because even if you could see it, you might not be able to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 05:27 AM
How about banning by ip be an admin only option. Even if user has permission to view ip and permission to ban, if they think an ip ban ip ban is warranted they simply have someone with allowed to admin execute the ip ban.

That would work for me at least
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 05:29 AM
That's basically the same thing as option 2. It's doable but it's messy because of the way the ban system works - they'd still potentially be shown that other bans exist, they'd just not be able to edit or remove them, or create new IP/hostname bans.

But that doesn't solve the problem, really. So banning by IP is admin only. Why do we still need to give non-admins IP addresses if admins are the only ones that can actually use them for anything meaningful?
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 05:35 AM
We are certainly in agreement there. Only ip viewing permission I've ever granted us view own. Maybe someone else can answer this
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Johnny54 on December 17th, 2012, 11:52 AM
I am a moderator on a users forum about a cable provider and I am glad I can see the IP address.
The cable provider has personnel from his helpdesk officially posting on the forum, but they also use "undercover" people, trying to influence the direction a topic is going, which I recognize by the used IP address (from there main office).
I also use the IP addresses to recognize if a member uses internet from the cable provider the forum is about, or a other provider.
Sometimes it's nice to know who your dealing with.

PS
The provider uses dynamic IP addresses so I very seldom use an IP ban. The bad people have I new one in no time and I end up blocking innocent people.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 12:18 PM
So the theory holds up, you can see addresses and you can ban people. If you had ban power in Wedge, nothing would change from where I'm standing.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 02:28 PM
When i was a moderator was not able to see ip addresses but could issue bans (this was in vb) based on a points system. When i became a super moderator then i was able to view and issue ip bans.

Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 02:31 PM
Issuing bans via points is no different to issuing warnings in any substantial sense. They are two different systems entirely, and that is where it will be going in Wedge.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 02:44 PM
I got that. I was making reference  to being able to issue bans without being able to see ip addresses.

We all use forums so differently i have no clue whats best. I'm  sure someone will come along who wants users to see the ip addresses before t not have permission to ban.

In the situation i mentioned above they did that way to ensure a higher up agreed when an ip ban was requested. It did have it's limitations as there were times when i was the only moderator available (especially on a weekend) and requested an ip ban and no super was available until Monday and some silly user would just go nuts til then.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Different kind of ban ;) The per-user thing is not exactly a ban as such, it is a per-account limitation, while bans are - well, bans.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: godboko71 on December 17th, 2012, 04:34 PM
From my point of few any forum I admin I and other admins are the only ones that can issue bans or see an IP address. I don't wan to worry about the privacy concerns letting non owner/admins access to IP addresses. Plus we never issue IP bans they are pointless with 20-30% of our traffic now coming from mobile browsing and another 60% coming from ISP'd that use dynamic IP addresses. Maybe 10% of our userbase comes from dedicated IP's and the majority of those come from University and Businesses.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Quote from Arantor on April 19th, 1974, 04:48 AM
The per-user thing is not exactly a ban as such, it is a per-account limitation, while bans are - well, bans.
For my knowledge what's the difference?
I'm asking based on the premise that the system was set so that user would be permanently "banned" after x number of points. They couldnt login or anything.
Posted: December 17th, 2012, 08:13 PM

Think i actually got it.

As described above the user us simply restricted from loging in and such where as an ip ban would say restrict them from accessing the site.

??
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 08:22 PM
I didn't realise vBulletin points bans were actually up to the stage of preventing even logins, I assumed they were like SMF warnings where you could prevent posting but not prevent logins - whereupon they are two separate things.

I'm still trying to figure some of this stuff for Wedge though.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 08:45 PM
Oh they indeed prevented logins.

You could get rather creative with it. The site i speak of just issued points with warnings up to say 10 points after which you were suspended for x number of days each warning issued the points would expire after so many days but if you racked up 20 within a certain number of days you'd be permanently banned.

You could set a list of infractions for example Spamming = 1 point, Trolling = 2 points etc.  And it all goes from there. I'll admit its one of the few things i prefered on vb to SMF, well that and the reports board some folks wanted but meh.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 17th, 2012, 09:03 PM
Well, I do plan to make it possible to rack up points with warnings (not exactly %, but certain some kind of cumulative system) - but more importantly, the admin can define certain kinds of warnings and define punishments related to those warnings.

I plan, for example, to make it possible to have a 'bad signature' warning, which allows the signature to be hidden from regular users for a day or so. Or trolling could earn a couple of other interesting punishments I have in mind ;)
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: spoogs on December 17th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Sounds damn good to me
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Auk on December 29th, 2012, 11:06 AM
I can not think of a situation where I should be allowed to see password and not be able to ban, unless whatever a user do on the forum will affect them outside of a wedge forum.

What do you mean by support topics? That sounds a bit ambiguous.

On the topic of banning, can there be a "switch" that describes what type of ban was created? What I mean is.. The ability to ip ban without seeing ip.

Would work like this:
1. You are a mod who can ban, but not see IP.
2. You see an offending message, or a user submitting report of an offense. Attached to the report or offending message is an ip you can not see. It would have have an option to numeric IP ban or domain ban.
3. This will appear differently depending on whether you are allowed to see ip, or not within the Ban UI.
4. A moderator like that can only remove ban if it does have the switch that describes it being a ban created by a user who can not see IP.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 29th, 2012, 01:03 PM
-sigh- I wouldn't mind but all this was pretty much covered in the very first post.

But for those playing along at home, let's run through the logic.

All of this debate hinges on the point that moderators could be able to ban without being able to see IP addresses.

If you can't see an IP address, you should not be allowed to do IP bans for the simple reason that you are very likely going to ban someone you shouldn't. And giving IP ban powers to someone who can't see who they're shooting down with them is just plain daft. And any measures that involve allowing users to see who would be affected by a ban are also privacy encroaching (and thus defy the point of hiding IP addresses in the first place)

Which leads back to the original point in the original post: if you can ban, you should be able to see IP addresses because there is no legitimate time as far as I can see where you need to be able to see IP addresses and not be able to ban, and anything else just convolutes the process.

Remember: if I'm having trouble getting this fairly simple point across now, imagine what's going to happen when you come to it in 6 months and wonder who can see IP addresses, in a support topic.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Powerbob on December 30th, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quote from Arantor on December 29th, 2012, 01:03 PM
-sigh- I wouldn't mind but all this was pretty much covered in the very first post.

But for those playing along at home, let's run through the logic.

All of this debate hinges on the point that moderators could be able to ban without being able to see IP addresses.

If you can't see an IP address, you should not be allowed to do IP bans for the simple reason that you are very likely going to ban someone you shouldn't. And giving IP ban powers to someone who can't see who they're shooting down with them is just plain daft. And any measures that involve allowing users to see who would be affected by a ban are also privacy encroaching (and thus defy the point of hiding IP addresses in the first place)

Which leads back to the original point in the original post: if you can ban, you should be able to see IP addresses because there is no legitimate time as far as I can see where you need to be able to see IP addresses and not be able to ban, and anything else just convolutes the process.

Remember: if I'm having trouble getting this fairly simple point across now, imagine what's going to happen when you come to it in 6 months and wonder who can see IP addresses, in a support topic.
Seems perfectly clear to me.
Title: Re: Viewing IP addresses and banning
Post by: Arantor on December 31st, 2012, 03:00 AM
r1812 applied this; you now need manage_bans permission to be able to see IP addresses. If you don't have permission, the IP address just doesn't get shown - not even your own. There's just no need for it.