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(Hey Pete, I think I've found a bug in the poll system... The voter viewing options are all off by default... Shouldn't it be set to the first one by default?)
So, I was wondering... After all this time (at least six months eh?), maybe you'd like to share your opinion about the Wedge skins that are currently available?
I'll give my opinion right now -- I think they all suck. Weaving is at least a bit more 'neutral' and thus works well as the default IMHO. Warm has some good ideas in it, but it's plagued by wrong color adjustments. Wuthering simply sucks from start to finish -- I only kept it for historical reasons because it was directly derived from Curve unlike the rest, and thus is what Wedge looked like in its infancy. And Wine is okay, I like it about as much as Weaving, pretty much when I want more color in my skin I'll choose Wine, and then I'll switch back to Weaving because I tend to lose my focus otherwise.
Still, I noticed while working on Wedge yesterday that some of you guys had chosen a different default skin, maybe because you liked it better, or maybe because you just wanted some change for a bit.
Do you like change? i.e. are you the kind of person who will switch skins from time to time for fun? Are there any issues you have with any of the skins?
I'd like to start work on a 6th skin (I'm not adding Wireless to the list because it's basically a stripped down Weaving), possibly the future default skin, at the very least I'd like to try for something a bit more daring, more designer-oriented. Hmm...
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Wuthering for me though I can't really explain why. Just speaks to me I guess.
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(Hey Pete, I think I've found a bug in the poll system... The voter viewing options are all off by default... Shouldn't it be set to the first one by default?)
I actually like all of them, it's almost mood dependent, but I tend to stick with Weaving because it's the default theme and I'm most used to it.
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I voted Weaving, Wine is a close second, Wuthering is okay I guess. It might be a good theme with Polish by someone else of course (not skill related but liking of said.) Warm could be a good theme with the colors sorted out, would be good for personal sites.
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Weaving for me.
In my advancing years, I just find it so much easier to read! :)
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I like both Weaving and Wuthering,
Right now I choose Wuthering because Ik thtnk the sidemenu is somewhat more clear. The parts are more seperated.
On the other hand I like the sidemenu in Weaving because it has few to zero color.
With the colors of the sidemenu in Wuthering it bit less dark I think it would be great.
I don't like the sidemenu on the left so those skins are a no go for me.
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Not meaning to be rude Nao, I havent fallen in love with any of them.
The problem I have is they all have a very basic feel to them which for me is rather disappointing. I was hoping for a more polished assortment of themes that do justice to the Wedge brand as being the NEW kid on the Bloc!...Now theres an idea?
New software, particularly WEDGE should = A new overall look that differentiates significantly from other forums in general.
A fresh bold new look that definitely stands out from the rest. Something that truely signifies the new era in forum software that Wedge is attempting to convey?..Yes?
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I don't like the sidemenu on the left so those skins are a no go for me.
I was hoping for a more polished assortment of themes that do justice to the Wedge brand
New software, particularly WEDGE should = A new overall look that differentiates significantly from other forums in general.
There are always going to be individual cases where very big customisations are appropriate. But for the majority of forums, the standard forum structure works extremely well.A fresh bold new look that definitely stands out from the rest. Something that truely signifies the new era in forum software that Wedge is attempting to convey?..Yes?
1. How much screaming and carrying on goes on every single time Facebook implements a major change to their UI? Why do you suppose this is?
2. As a sort of corollary to the answer to the above question, something that is a long way departed from the conventional forum structure is actually going to confuse people, leading to a feeling of detachment, ostricisation, and any headway made out of doing something different is lost.
It doesn't matter how different it is, if no-one wants to use it because no-one understands it. Why do you think so many people want to emulate the layouts of other software?
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I don't like the sidemenu on the left so those skins are a no go for me.
Just a bit pity that the looks of the menu change.
PS
Probably the wrong place to tell, but in Wuthering I am having trouble with the dropdown menu's.
When going down to enter the dropped menu, that menu disappears.
It disappears when crossing the space between tab en dropdown. Only when being very fast it works.
I hope it's a bit clear what I mean.
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I switch around on most of the forums I'm on. i get tired of the same old thing all of the time.
For me the menus on the right hand side are awkward. But I'm left handed so that may play a big part in that.
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I didn't know. That's a cool feature.
Just a bit pity that the looks of the menu change.
It disappears when crossing the space between tab en dropdown. Only when being very fast it works.
I hope it's a bit clear what I mean.
For me the menus on the right hand side are awkward. But I'm left handed so that may play a big part in that.
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I am using Wedge, I prefer the contrast in colors as it makes it easier for my eyes. Weaving I think have too bright of a background for me. The rest have a mix of blue and green that I do not care for.
Generally, I do not care for the pastel look of any of the skins but Wedge is my favorite. I also find that any skin that uses a lot of fading and shadowing cause eyestrain ( I wear glasses ) so I prefer well defined and sharp lines and letters in a skin.
My bank recently 'upgraded' to a CSS3 driven web site for on line banking. What a mess. All the shadowing, fading, blurring, uber light backgrounds, lightly colored bars really aggravated a lot of users. After an onslaught of complaints, they kept the newer look as far as layout but went to better color contrasting and crisper lines.
Life is blurry enough as we get older, web sites should not make it worse. :)
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Um, Weaving is the default skin of Wedge itself, that means Wedge = Weaving from your post...
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I was hoping for people to understand that there's only so much that two people can do in their spare time when life intervenes. I was also hoping that people wouldn't just expect miracles from us and that instead of expecting it to be wonderful, might actually be prepared to put some effort in down the line, but I guess no-one's going to be happy today.
Uh, no. Let's just say that Bloc and us don't get on very well at all. You should read the debate. It would be informative.
Why? Forum software as we currently know it is over a decade old. It has not changed significantly in that time. The implication to me is that it has not changed significantly in that time because it works well for its task.There are always going to be individual cases where very big customisations are appropriate. But for the majority of forums, the standard forum structure works extremely well.
There's two other things to consider.- 1. How much screaming and carrying on goes on every single time Facebook implements a major change to their UI? Why do you suppose this is? - 2. As a sort of corollary to the answer to the above question, something that is a long way departed from the conventional forum structure is actually going to confuse people, leading to a feeling of detachment, ostricisation, and any headway made out of doing something different is lost.
It doesn't matter how different it is, if no-one wants to use it because no-one understands it. Why do you think so many people want to emulate the layouts of other software?
Consideration to UI would have taken place well in advance of its emergence onto the marketplace. With the release of any new product there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost, then brandname. Although they are separate entities they are inextricably linked. Before release to public the product passes through prototype phase which Wedge is currently in. Once approved for release the product is then subjected to a marketing phase which comprises of not only the promotional aspect but packaging before sale to public - Or in Wedges case its UI. You cant release a product in its raw form you have to window dress it in order for it to enhance its appeal. Which is what Im concentrating in my own way. Facebook would certainly have gone down this road as its an essential ingredient of the products makeup. It defines it as too does its packaging.
There's an addage that I draw on from time to time and it holds true - namely, "form follows function" but it has to be remembered they go hand in hand.
The first analogy I would have expected in relation to Wedge and Facebook is "What are the reasons for its popularity". Facebook was certainly a new concept in social media as indeed Wedge is in its realm - You guys have that area covered but and its a big one - Consideration to UI is not wasted and is equally important in Wedges case
2. By now you will have realized that I disagree with you on your latter point - Im feeling much happier that ive got it all off my chest though.
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Um, Weaving is the default skin of Wedge itself, that means Wedge = Weaving from your post...
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Thanks for getting back Pete, very sorry if Ive offended it was'nt my intention.
Have done - remark was tongue in cheek - drawing on pun, I suppose not in the best of taste.
That may be the case but I was under the impression what you were doing with Wedge WAS different to the norm - socialization, board structure the whole package.
Yes there are reasons why you branched from SMF but the underlying motivation was surely one that was centred on improvement. Why create Wedge if change wasn't required?
Change for the sake of improvement is great. And there is a lot of change for the sake of improvement. However, change for the sake of change is not improvement.
A forum has certain functional requirements that have to be adhered to. There's only so far you can go from those functional requirements and still remain generically usable for a lot of sites. As I demonstrated on Game Memorial, you can do some very nice customisation but that customisation is simply not suitable for every single site. I applied a setup that turned a board into a blog. But it won't suit most forums. It will make a difference for blog boards, sure, but I guarantee that what I did on GM will likely not be suitable for most sites if any others. (I'm not entirely sure it works on GM at this point, but hey, it's experimental.)Its impossible to believe Wedge falls in the category of a huge customisation. You have invested so much energy and sacrifice into something that was for purely for supposed personal use? The vibe im getting is your striving for so much more than a streamlined 10 year old system that works.
That said, can you really convince me that the thoughts/conversation system will be suitable for most sites, for example? It's basically reimplementing what's on Noisen, however it's likely to be usable enough for a lot more sites, so it got included.
Also note that there's not a great lot of code that's actually original from 10 years ago ;)Personally, the whole exercise seems like a new beginning in forum software hence my remarks on endeavouring to create a fresh approach with themes, not as an adjunct but a marketing ploy which coincides with the release of Wedge.
Let's take Bloc as a classic example. How enthusiastic do you think he was when designing Curve, as opposed to all the other creative themes he's done? Can you also imagine *ANY* of Bloc's newer themes being the default for ANY forum package, which by definition has to be a base, rather than the end product?1. Yes people are resistant to change but theres a whole world out there thats also receptive to it. I feel your not comparing apples with apples where Wedge and Facebook is concerned - Theyre @ different stages of development.
There is a whole world receptive to change. Except they're by far the minority. And even then, they're not receptive to change for the sake of change, they're receptive to change when they're aiming for a specific change or improvement - or getting anyway from a specific bug or issue.Consideration to UI would have taken place well in advance of its emergence onto the marketplace. With the release of any new product there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost, then brandname.
Yes, there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost. And that's the crux of this debate. We have a fundamental functional requirement to meet. Major UI overhauls will not change that fact, and there's a reason why forum UI has not significantly altered in over a decade - no-one has yet been able to improve upon it in a meaningful way for the majority of users. Yes, individual users and individual sites might have specific improvements but we simply can't just include major UI shifts in the base software, no matter how much people complain.Although they are separate entities they are inextricably linked. Before release to public the product passes through prototype phase which Wedge is currently in.
From a user experience standpoint, we're iterating on top of what is in SMF 2.0. There's a lot of iteration in some places, less in others.
Wedge is not really prototyping user experience, it's mostly a technical phase of prototyping. I fully expect way more iteration to occur in response to user feedback - because it's a constant iterative process, not the conventional product evolution process that physical products have.Which is what Im concentrating in my own way. Facebook would certainly have gone down this road as its an essential ingredient of the products makeup. It defines it as too does its packaging.
There's an addage that I draw on from time to time and it holds true - namely, "form follows function" but it has to be remembered they go hand in hand.
Form follows function, quite right. The function of a forum hasn't changed in decades. Small parts of the process have. Specific implementations might also have changed. But the bulk of operations have not changed. As a result, the theme in Wedge needs to follow that approach. There is really very little major change we can do to the form of Wedge as a consequence.The first analogy I would have expected in relation to Wedge and Facebook is "What are the reasons for its popularity". Facebook was certainly a new concept in social media as indeed Wedge is in its realm - You guys have that area covered but and its a big one - Consideration to UI is not wasted and is equally important in Wedges case
2. By now you will have realized that I disagree with you on your latter point - Im feeling much happier that ive got it all off my chest though.
Point of interest: why do all the forum software packages out there at present have a default theme based around the colour blue? Why do they do this, I wonder? Could it be that they have to be carefully neutral across all the different uses that their software will generate and that they have to remain neutral to allow users to customise for their specific site?
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In all honesty this(http://custom.simplemachines.org/themes/index.php?lemma=2384) theme has been my love since quite a while.
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I didn't know. That's a cool feature.
Just a bit pity that the looks of the menu change.
Well, different people have different taste. Nothing to argue about.It disappears when crossing the space between tab en dropdown. Only when being very fast it works.
I hope it's a bit clear what I mean.
I tested the other skins and they work as expected. I noticed that in Wuthering I am missing the triangle between tab and dropdown menu.
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Johnny, you didn't tell us what your browser is... (And version!)
Also, to agent47, Johnny54, markham, spoogs: can you try and be more specific about what you like in Wuthering? I swapped the fonts (Segoe UI / Arial) for Weaving and Wuthering yesterday to, maybe, help you determine if this is due to the font choice. (You can easily switch between fonts with developer tools like Firebug or Dragonfly, of course.)
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Sorry Nao.
I am using IE9 (version 9.0.8112.16241 including update KB2722913) running on Windows Vista.
Specific? Hmmm that's hard. It's just the overall looks.
But I like for instance the squares around de headers in the sidemenu. It's clear what is what in a blink of the eye.
Maybe it's just that Wuthering looks more familiar to what I am used to.
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Honestly wish I could explain. The overall look and feel of the theme just does it for me. I never thought I'd be a fan of the sidebar on the right but it seems right at home. I can safely say however it's not just a font thing, the colours compliment each other nicely as well. It's fairly easy on my not so great eyes not that the others aren't easy on the eyes because they are.
Posted: August 26th, 2012, 05:01 PM
Hmmmm did the Skin Selector always take us to http://wedge.org/do/skin/
I seem to remember it just changing skins on the fly keeping us we were, meaning if I'm viewing a topic and changed skins I would still be viewing that topic.
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It has nothing to do with the font, Nao. I agree with most of what spoogs mentioned. The colors complement each other very nicely. I really admire the overall feel of Wuthering particularly that nice shadowy-feel, that's good on the eyes. But I don't dislike Weaving in fact it's my second best from your list of themes. Besides you should know that I have a tendency to not agree with what the majority group agrees with because I don't know....it probably makes me feel unique, different.... I don't know... so for that reason I don't know if my vote/opinion deserves to be valid.
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Okay you know what, the font may have played a small part in my vote because Weaving somehow seems to feel better than when I previously used it. Did you make any changes to the font, Nao ? because I'm not sure since you asked us to do it ourselves using Web Developer.
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I'm just very, VERY sensitive to people that come out with statements about how it isn't what they've expected. Bear in mind that I've also been known to write a lot of free mods, give them away for free and then get crap from people because I didn't make *exactly what they wanted*.
Fair comment. Though I find it interesting to note that Bloc has actually been taking some of the ideas we proposed here... and it should also be noted that the default theme of every single forum software is bland. That's by design, and with one specific reason: it provides a structure for people to build upon.
It is different to the norm. But it also has to perform the same actions as the norm, and on top of that, we will get complaints if it doesn't perform the norm.
Because we have to balance a goal that a lot of people seem to have forgotten.
Change for the sake of improvement is great. And there is a lot of change for the sake of improvement. However, change for the sake of change is not improvement. > A forum has certain functional requirements that have to be adhered to. There's only so far you can go from those functional requirements and still remain generically usable for a lot of sites. As I demonstrated on Game Memorial, you can do some very nice customisation but that customisation is simply not suitable for every single site. I applied a setup that turned a board into a blog. But it won't suit most forums. It will make a difference for blog boards, sure, but I guarantee that what I did on GM will likely not be suitable for most sites if any others. (I'm not entirely sure it works on GM at this point, but hey, it's experimental.)
It started out pretty much that way. That said, can you really convince me that the thoughts/conversation system will be suitable for most sites, for example? It's basically reimplementing what's on Noisen, however it's likely to be usable enough for a lot more sites, so it got included.
Also note that there's not a great lot of code that's actually original from 10 years ago ;)
Creating a fresh approach does mean so much more than just doing design. It has to support customisations, the entire range of customisations that Wedge will be able to support, as well as all the features that we want it to have. AND it still has to be suitable for a vast, vast range of sites, a criteria that theme designers generally do not have to deal with.
Let's take Bloc as a classic example. How enthusiastic do you think he was when designing Curve, as opposed to all the other creative themes he's done? Can you also imagine *ANY* of Bloc's newer themes being the default for ANY forum package, which by definition has to be a base, rather than the end product?
Are they really? Both are on-going works in progress with active users. Both have users with user psychology. The only real difference is scale.
There is a whole world receptive to change. Except they're by far the minority. And even then, they're not receptive to change for the sake of change, they're receptive to change when they're aiming for a specific change or improvement - or getting anyway from a specific bug or issue.
Except Facebook's UI has had several major shifts in the last 8 years. The world of websites is quite different to conventional product design and marketing, because conventional products have to do the whole design, user experience testing etc. then the product hits the market. But with a website, the product essentially evolves over time and can respond to user feedback and so on as time goes on.
- When Faceboook’s UI was introduced I would wager it wasn’t steeped in tradition. It too was sensitive to the needs and idiosyncrasies of their target audience and by that I mean it hadn’t released decade old styling. Their designers were attuned to the needs of many and modelled their product accordingly.Yes, there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost. And that's the crux of this debate. We have a fundamental functional requirement to meet. Major UI overhauls will not change that fact, and there's a reason why forum UI has not significantly altered in over a decade - no-one has yet been able to improve upon it in a meaningful way for the majority of users. Yes, individual users and individual sites might have specific improvements but we simply can't just include major UI shifts in the base software, no matter how much people complain.
That's merely a matter of semantics, actually. Most of what is in Wedge is a round of iteration on top of SMF 2.0 which is a round of iteration on top of SMF 1.1, on top of SMF 1.0, on top of YaBB SE, on top of YaBB, on top of UBB, on top of migrating the conventional newsgroup concepts to a web based environment. It's one long line of iterations.
From a user experience standpoint, we're iterating on top of what is in SMF 2.0. There's a lot of iteration in some places, less in others.
Wedge is not really prototyping user experience, it's mostly a technical phase of prototyping. I fully expect way more iteration to occur in response to user feedback - because it's a constant iterative process, not the conventional product evolution process that physical products have.
I've been a Facebook user for several years. A great number of changes, large and small, have occurred in that time, not least 'Timeline'. It's an iterative process. Have a read of http://facebooklayout.com/blog/a-look-at-the-changing-layouts-of-facebook/
Well done, you've taken on board my argument and turned your own 180 in the process.
Form follows function, quite right. The function of a forum hasn't changed in decades. Small parts of the process have. Specific implementations might also have changed. But the bulk of operations have not changed. As a result, the theme in Wedge needs to follow that approach. There is really very little major change we can do to the form of Wedge as a consequence.
Nope. That really is an apples and oranges comparison.
I realise that, and I'm glad you feel better for having got it off your chest :) On the flip side, I firmly disagree with aspects of your argument because I think they're valid, but rooted firmly in a different background. I'm also pretty sure you're not seeing it from the perspective that Nao and I have to consider - we're in the position whereby we have to consider how users will use the software.
- Here’s a thought...Why so much focus on Logotype development and not as much on UI...they lend themselves to defining Wedges identity. Their importance in terms of defining Wedges marketability is of equal significance as is the performance of the product?Why do they do this, I wonder? Could it be that they have to be carefully neutral across all the different uses that their software will generate and that they have to remain neutral to allow users to customise for their specific site?
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Fair comment. Though I find it interesting to note that Bloc has actually been taking some of the ideas we proposed here... and it should also be noted that the default theme of every single forum software is bland. That's by design, and with one specific reason: it provides a structure for people to build upon.
Anyhow, I'd like to know.Let's take Bloc as a classic example. How enthusiastic do you think he was when designing Curve, as opposed to all the other creative themes he's done? Can you also imagine *ANY* of Bloc's newer themes being the default for ANY forum package, which by definition has to be a base, rather than the end product?
So your argument about it not being fun is wrong I am afraid, as well as Curve being like the others out there..IMHO its quite distinct, for bad or for worse.Point of interest: why do all the forum software packages out there at present have a default theme based around the colour blue? Why do they do this, I wonder? Could it be that they have to be carefully neutral across all the different uses that their software will generate and that they have to remain neutral to allow users to customise for their specific site?
And...adding a sidebar isn't really that innovative, despite what you might think. Portal mods have been indulging in them for years. While its certainly fresh to use them to attaching links and info related to your current whereabouts in the forum, its not new as such. I did that with the Simplicity theme for SMF 1.1, over 6 years ago. It was interesting then, but Simplicity theme was maybe too much at the time. When I later did some similar themes for SMF2, they weren't that much downloaded. Hence, people like changes - but in small doses and applied evenly. <_<
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Whoops...when voting I voted for Wuthering but actually should have been the default Weaving.
I never use a forums default theme though as I don't want it looking like other forums out there. Really bugs me to go to a forum and see the default Curve theme. More than likely I would stay with Weaving and modify the colors and images to try and make my site look more unique than the default colors. As someone else previously mentioned the colors are a little too pastel in all of the themes for my own personal taste.
I really don't have a preference over Arial or Segoe UI. Both are easy to read.
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Anyhow, I'd like to know.
(I see also you're as bad as I was about leaving/never returning.)The key was to balance the two: being innovate and staying mainstream.
this is not to boast, but just look around and check
Whether that actually made it less than it could be, that if I had made, or someone else, had made a more vb-like theme..would SMF2 be MORE popular?
So your argument about it not being fun is wrong I am afraid, as well as Curve being like the others out there..IMHO its quite distinct, for bad or for worse.
But it also has a lot of similarities, because form follows function. The structure of the board, message and thread indexes follow the same structure as 1.1 and 1.0 and back. And I still believe that is because that is what is expected. You can do unique designs for unique sites but you have to return to the conventions for the base.
(If you're going to argue with what I'm saying, argue the points I'm making, not side points. I was wrong about it being fun. It's different, no argument, but the point I'm making is that its function follows all the others, and that there ARE a lot of design consistencies with other systems, like the fact there's still a lot of blue in it, even if it is accented with orange, it's still primarily blue.)Blue is a calm color, it gives off a sense of stability and strength that no other color can match. I think its just a color-choice made from that angle - not to suit every site as such.
And...adding a sidebar isn't really that innovative, despite what you might think
Hence, people like changes - but in small doses and applied evenly.
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Sorry Nao.
I am using IE9 (version 9.0.8112.16241 including update KB2722913) running on Windows Vista.
I don't know, try to reload the cache or somethin'...Specific? Hmmm that's hard. It's just the overall looks.
But I like for instance the squares around de headers in the sidemenu. It's clear what is what in a blink of the eye.
Maybe it's just that Wuthering looks more familiar to what I am used to.
Then I wrote a sub-skin for it that I called Wine because of its violet colors. Pete liked it, so I pushed it as the default skin, and Wuthering became the sub-skin itself. During the conversion process, I made a few mistakes that ended up making it even less Curveish than it used to be. Then Wine itself became a sub-skin (again) after Weaving became the new default (has been for the longest time, and still planning to have it as default.) And in the process, blah blah blah, Wuthering got screwed again. I just don't care enough about it...
Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't just drop all gradients from it. Bit like Warm... But with cold (wuthering!) colors, obviously.
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(Hey Pete, I think I've found a bug in the poll system... The voter viewing options are all off by default... Shouldn't it be set to the first one by default?)
t.
I actually like all of them, it's almost mood dependent, but I tend to stick with Weaving because it's the default theme and I'm most used to it.
Posted: August 26th, 2012, 11:09 PM
The problem I have is they all have a very basic feel to them which for me is rather disappointing. I was hoping for a more polished assortment of themes that do justice to the Wedge brand as being the NEW kid on the Bloc!...Now theres an idea?
I think that Weaving is a much better skin than most anything I've seen on SMF. There are a couple of themes by Bloc that I like as much as I like Weaving, and a few themes by Dziner which I like as much or more than Weaving. Mostly because they have more coherence overall. (Wedge is still in alpha, I know...!)New software, particularly WEDGE should = A new overall look that differentiates significantly from other forums in general.
I try to keep in touch with reality. XenForo did away with a few horrific forum concepts -- but added oddities of its own. Invision evolved in a nice way, but it's still basically the same as in the beginning, only with a modern twist. vBulletin is... oh well, vBulletin is a joke for a wanna-be designer like me. There's so much to say, I wouldn't know where to begin...
phpBB is another example of boring classicism (in your mind?), but OTOH phpBB3 introduced something that none of the other forums had done so far (except for my custom SMF back in the day for a few weeks -- until I got bored with it): showing avatars on the RIGHT of the messages. (Something, you'll notice, that is available in one of my skins.) SMF has always been about classicism too, but at least Curve added some modern (at the time!) features like rounded corners and daring padding. FluxBB went for modern simplicity too, perhaps way more than the rest of the pack -- but it's also probably a feeling due to the fact that they don't ship many features by default. Making it easier to provide a site-wide cleanliness.
So, most of the forum software is built around the same concepts, but tries to customize it in a way that doesn't scare people away, and yet establishes a visual theme that ensures people 'stick' with it or at least recognize the forum software across multiple websites.
What Wedge did was exactly the same. I went through the code to make it more modern, and tried to make the designs interesting while still retaining the classic forum layouts.
You may or may not believe me -- but I find it harder to do than starting from scratch.
Because what you don't want is finding yourself with the mess that Vanilla is. Here's an example of a 'popular' forum system that actually makes me want to facepalm everytime I see a forum running it. Perhaps even more than when I see a vBulletin-powered forum.
Conclusion: Wedge does provide one of the most original layouts for a SMF fork. Really. Can I make it stand out even more? Obviously yes. Do I have time to do it? Not really. Do I want to do it? Again, nope. I think maybe I can work on that for Wedge 2.0, but we need to retain our SMF-friendly aspects for now.A fresh bold new look that definitely stands out from the rest. Something that truely signifies the new era in forum software that Wedge is attempting to convey?..Yes?
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I don't like the sidemenu on the left so those skins are a no go for me.
The left-side sidebars are never going to be default, either. They're for people who like them! But I have to say, since I always run Wedge in 1024px wide or something (I use the remaining horizontal space for my browser tab list), I never see any sidebars. Well, I see them at the bottom, and it's just plain okay that way.I was hoping for people to understand that there's only so much that two people can do in their spare time when life intervenes. I was also hoping that people wouldn't just expect miracles from us and that instead of expecting it to be wonderful, might actually be prepared to put some effort in down the line, but I guess no-one's going to be happy today.
What do you mean by 'spare time', by the way? What is 'spare time'? I don't understand that word. And I've looked it up in a dictionary. Doesn't ring a bell... Is my English that rusty? Oh, and while I'm at it, I also heard about 'paid job' at some point... Does anyone know what it means?Uh, no. Let's just say that Bloc and us don't get on very well at all. You should read the debate. It would be informative.
1. How much screaming and carrying on goes on every single time Facebook implements a major change to their UI? Why do you suppose this is?
2. As a sort of corollary to the answer to the above question, something that is a long way departed from the conventional forum structure is actually going to confuse people, leading to a feeling of detachment, ostricisation, and any headway made out of doing something different is lost.
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I'll resume work on this topic tomorrow, ah ah...
Honestly wish I could explain. The overall look and feel of the theme just does it for me. I never thought I'd be a fan of the sidebar on the right but it seems right at home. I can safely say however it's not just a font thing, the colours compliment each other nicely as well.
Hmmmm did the Skin Selector always take us to http://wedge.org/do/skin/
I seem to remember it just changing skins on the fly keeping us we were, meaning if I'm viewing a topic and changed skins I would still be viewing that topic.
See, until now the skin selector would add a variable at the end of the URL and redirect to that. I didn't like it for two reasons: (1) the variable had 'theme' in it, which is basically a 'temporary' setting for the current session, so it could generate situations where you get two different skins on two different browsers at the same time, (2) well, it adds too much code to the HTML... Even if it's at the end, which is fine usually, it's still extra bandwidth. So I chose a solution that will probably not work for everyone (if your antivirus removes your referer information, you'll be redirected to the skin selector instead of the current page), and may also not work correctly (it's possible that you'll be redirected to a page reloaded from cache, making it impossible to see the new skin without hitting F5.) But in all honesty, my Opera is set to ALWAYS load from cache, and yet the feature works for me every time.
Tell me if you have any problems with it... (I need to commit these changes.)
PS: just realized -- first at 11.111 posts! 8-)
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Even if the paddings and margins are awfully done?
Yeah, sorry, a wrong manipulation on my side -- I overwrote a file with a version that wasn't my custom one.
See, until now the skin selector would add a variable at the end of the URL and redirect to that. I didn't like it for two reasons: (1) the variable had 'theme' in it, which is basically a 'temporary' setting for the current session, so it could generate situations where you get two different skins on two different browsers at the same time, (2) well, it adds too much code to the HTML... Even if it's at the end, which is fine usually, it's still extra bandwidth. So I chose a solution that will probably not work for everyone (if your antivirus removes your referer information, you'll be redirected to the skin selector instead of the current page), and may also not work correctly (it's possible that you'll be redirected to a page reloaded from cache, making it impossible to see the new skin without hitting F5.) But in all honesty, my Opera is set to ALWAYS load from cache, and yet the feature works for me every time.
Tell me if you have any problems with it... (I need to commit these changes.)
PS: just realized -- first at 11.111 posts! 8-)
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For those who have issues with the sidebar position -- I modified Wine and Warm to use the same as the others.
Total time taken: 2 seconds per file :P (changing 'left' to 'right' in the options file.)
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Total time taken: 2 seconds per file :P (changing 'left' to 'right' in the options file.)
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IE9 + Win7 working fine... :-/
I don't know, try to reload the cache or somethin'...
Started Windows 7 in VMware Workstation. Problem with Wuthring in IE 9 is present.
Started Windows 8 (CP) in VMware Workstation. No problems with Wuthering in IE 9 and IE 10
There must be something different between de Windows versions. But what? They all run on de same laptop, they all have the same NOD32 AV running, they all have Java installed etc.
And why is the problem in Wuthering and not the other skins? If I understood correctly they all run the same code for the drop down menu's.
:hmm: Interesting.Specific? Hmmm that's hard. It's just the overall looks.
But I like for instance the squares around de headers in the side menu. It's clear what is what in a blink of the eye.
Woke up with a headache which is worsening, so thinking and testing halted for now.
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IE9 sucks.
Unlike what the giant HD ad said at the theater right before the DKR movie. I was expecting someone to have a good laugh in the room but everyone was watching candidly, ugh.
So... Because I can't reproduce on my system, I'm not going to bother, if you don't mind.
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Oh, bugger... I'm having problems with page 2 of this topic. It just doesn't output anything.
I tried to reduce the number of posts shown. If I show 13 posts, it works. If I show 14, blank page.
It doesn't seem to be related to the post content. Probably a server timeout I'd have said, but it usually sends the blank page immediately, not after a certain delay... :-/Because we have to balance a goal that a lot of people seem to have forgotten.
But it doesn't mean it's any better.
Wedge's layout is the same as your usual forum, except that it tries to simplify it.
The opposite being vBulletin, which is so full of crap, it became funny at some point. (Clearly software that wasn't made by designers...)- Disagree. How do you explain the mass exodus from My Space to Facebook &Twitter for that matter. All their members ride the wave of popularity not because they’re stuck in the past but because they embrace change,
The same happened with Twitter: the website attempts to lure in the 'decision makers' and influential users (in the case of Facebook, it was Harvard grads then Ivy League grads then college grads etc... For Twitter, it was web designers first, then movie/music stars, then their fans.)
Basically, people don't come to Facebook or Twitter because they 'like it better', they come because someone they like is on it (possibly because they thought it was better, most likely because they didn't know better), then they bring in their family, etc... The more people were in, the easier it was to get more people to join.
MySpace is a good example of a website that stole the lightning from other sites (like Friendster), mainly because of its name (reminded people of piracy), and focus on music artists (see, Facebook made sure to replicate MySpace's music features to lure them in). Then MySpace lost its market shares because it simply sucked. But there's a huge difference between bad management/bad designers (which is the reason MySpace fell) and Facebook actually being great... No, it was just 'better' because, at least I'm talking as a web designer, it was important to impose a visual layout that couldn't be modified by users -- it gave its identity to Facebook, while MySpace didn't have an identity, only badly made web pages.
So... To sum up: people don't jump ship because they embrace change -- they jump ship because they find a better solution that is usable without a steep learning curve.- Here’s a thought...Why so much focus on Logotype development and not as much on UI...they lend themselves to defining Wedges identity. Their importance in terms of defining Wedges marketability is of equal significance as is the performance of the product?
It's just plain fun for me.
Working on redoing the UI from scratch? Not so much... All forum software share a common root for a very good reason: if you were to redo it from scratch, you'd iteratively come up with exactly the same results, months later. Because there's only so many ways you can present a list of messages with a userbox next to it...
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Because there's only so many ways you can present a list of messages with a userbox next to it...
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Out of curiosity..which ideas would that be? I know you are protective of Wedge, but if you feel I *take" things from it, I'd like to be informed about that - so that I at least can *not* do that anymore lol. On the other side..if its some design bit you feel is whats been taken, it may not have been even conscious. I have actually been trying various stuff over the years, most of which didn't catch on, but nevertheless was interesting to explore.
Perhaps Pete remembered the mention I made about your last ViennaBBS theme, with its use of Segoe UI everywhere, as I commented that my local install was a Segoe UI and I was planning to commit it, and then you came and made it look like I'd taken the idea from you ;)
Of course, there are not exactly so many 'usable' webfonts around... My choices are limited to Arial/Helvetica (the most commonly used font online, I believe), Tahoma (with a fallback for bold and italics), Verdana (not so fun these days), Segoe UI (with an Arial fallback), Calibri (with a fallback on the x-height compatible Source Sans Pro -- one of my favorite solutions actually), Georgia (not a good idea to use it across the entire UI...!), or embedding a lightweight one-size-fits-all webfont like Droid Sans, Open Sans or PT Sans (not so light though this one). But it's a bad idea to embed a font by default, it should be seen only on specific forums, so it's a no-go for me.Actually, when I made Curve it was far from boring lol. I was very excited
Also -- round corners. But it was long before CSS3 came into play, so it wasn't exactly a fun implementation...!
You must not have had fun making it IE6 compatible! Or maybe other people did all the work on that..?You see more VB clones than SMF2 clones, but still SMF 2.0 is popular.
So it could either be fixed (in my mind) by using a different theme on sm.org than the default, or providing a much simpler skin for SMF2 and setting it to the default, while still providing Curve as an aside. But it's not a realistic solution...
Thing is, the more complex/convoluted a default theme, the more shocking it is when everyone starts running it.
It's one of the reasons I wanted to simplify Wine (and came up with Weaving), but it's even worse than that -- I'm actually wary (weary?) of seeing Weaving used on other sites...!
Heck, if anything, I should provide a huge box at install time, with the text "Please change the default colors! What do you want? Yellow? Green? Blue? Violet?"...Blue is a calm color, it gives off a sense of stability and strength that no other color can match.
And...adding a sidebar isn't really that innovative, despite what you might think.
Forcing it on the user, though, was rather innovative I'd say. And still providing a way to put it away -- by reducing the window width -- is even better.
I've never been fully happy with the contents of the sidebar, though. I'd like it to remain more consistent across pages.Portal mods have been indulging in them for years. While its certainly fresh to use them to attaching links and info related to your current whereabouts in the forum, its not new as such. I did that with the Simplicity theme for SMF 1.1, over 6 years ago. It was interesting then, but Simplicity theme was maybe too much at the time.
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 08:01 PM
It's funny, I thought I'd already made this point?
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Oh, and once again, your post didn't bring up a warning on my side when I posted my message!
And what do you think of the crash bug?
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Oh, and once again, your post didn't bring up a warning on my side when I posted my message!
And what do you think of the crash bug?
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Oh, and once again, your post didn't bring up a warning on my side when I posted my message!
And yet -- once, between these two dates, I did get a notification. It's like it's doing it on a whim...!And what do you think of the crash bug?
Or more precisely, it was yesterday... Today, it seems to be showing to me.
Page created in 0.16 seconds with 28 queries.
(DR: 0.03 seconds with 3 queries.)
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But debugging won't show anything -- because the page is empty in the first place. Completely blank.
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Isn't it already on..?
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Huh, it is on. What about the server error log then?
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Odd thing on page two on my iPad 2 I could not see the page (Safari & Chrome) the other day, however on PC (Chrome & Firefox) I could/can. Meant to mention it then however until Nao said something I thought it was something funky on my end.
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Johnny, you didn't tell us what your browser is... (And version!)
Also, to agent47, Johnny54, markham, spoogs: can you try and be more specific about what you like in Wuthering? I swapped the fonts (Segoe UI / Arial) for Weaving and Wuthering yesterday to, maybe, help you determine if this is due to the font choice. (You can easily switch between fonts with developer tools like Firebug or Dragonfly, of course.)
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Anyhow, I'd like to know.
(I see also you're as bad as I was about leaving/never returning.)
The key was to balance the two: being innovate and staying mainstream.
this is not to boast, but just look around and check
Whether that actually made it less than it could be, that if I had made, or someone else, had made a more vb-like theme..would SMF2 be MORE popular?
So your argument about it not being fun is wrong I am afraid, as well as Curve being like the others out there..IMHO its quite distinct, for bad or for worse.
But it also has a lot of similarities, because form follows function. The structure of the board, message and thread indexes follow the same structure as 1.1 and 1.0 and back. And I still believe that is because that is what is expected. You can do unique designs for unique sites but you have to return to the conventions for the base.
(If you're going to argue with what I'm saying, argue the points I'm making, not side points. I was wrong about it being fun. It's different, no argument, but the point I'm making is that its function follows all the others, and that there ARE a lot of design consistencies with other systems, like the fact there's still a lot of blue in it, even if it is accented with orange, it's still primarily blue.)
Blue is a calm color, it gives off a sense of stability and strength that no other color can match. I think its just a color-choice made from that angle - not to suit every site as such.
And...adding a sidebar isn't really that innovative, despite what you might think
Hence, people like changes - but in small doses and applied evenly.
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Out of curiosity..which ideas would that be? I know you are protective of Wedge, but if you feel I *take" things from it, I'd like to be informed about that - so that I at least can *not* do that anymore lol. On the other side..if its some design bit you feel is whats been taken, it may not have been even conscious. I have actually been trying various stuff over the years, most of which didn't catch on, but nevertheless was interesting to explore.
Perhaps Pete remembered the mention I made about your last ViennaBBS theme, with its use of Segoe UI everywhere, as I commented that my local install was a Segoe UI and I was planning to commit it, and then you came and made it look like I'd taken the idea from you ;)
Of course, there are not exactly so many 'usable' webfonts around... My choices are limited to Arial/Helvetica (the most commonly used font online, I believe), Tahoma (with a fallback for bold and italics), Verdana (not so fun these days), Segoe UI (with an Arial fallback), Calibri (with a fallback on the x-height compatible Source Sans Pro -- one of my favorite solutions actually), Georgia (not a good idea to use it across the entire UI...!), or embedding a lightweight one-size-fits-all webfont like Droid Sans, Open Sans or PT Sans (not so light though this one). But it's a bad idea to embed a font by default, it should be seen only on specific forums, so it's a no-go for me.
Actually, when I made Curve it was far from boring lol. I was very excited
Also -- round corners. But it was long before CSS3 came into play, so it wasn't exactly a fun implementation...!
You must not have had fun making it IE6 compatible! Or maybe other people did all the work on that..?
Of course, today its quite another matter, i don't take IE6 into consideration at all now.You see more VB clones than SMF2 clones, but still SMF 2.0 is popular.
So it could either be fixed (in my mind) by using a different theme on sm.org than the default, or providing a much simpler skin for SMF2 and setting it to the default, while still providing Curve as an aside. But it's not a realistic solution...
Thing is, the more complex/convoluted a default theme, the more shocking it is when everyone starts running it.
It's one of the reasons I wanted to simplify Wine (and came up with Weaving), but it's even worse than that -- I'm actually wary (weary?) of seeing Weaving used on other sites...!
Heck, if anything, I should provide a huge box at install time, with the text "Please change the default colors! What do you want? Yellow? Green? Blue? Violet?"...
Blue is a calm color, it gives off a sense of stability and strength that no other color can match.
And...adding a sidebar isn't really that innovative, despite what you might think.
Forcing it on the user, though, was rather innovative I'd say. And still providing a way to put it away -- by reducing the window width -- is even better.
I've never been fully happy with the contents of the sidebar, though. I'd like it to remain more consistent across pages.Portal mods have been indulging in them for years. While its certainly fresh to use them to attaching links and info related to your current whereabouts in the forum, its not new as such. I did that with the Simplicity theme for SMF 1.1, over 6 years ago. It was interesting then, but Simplicity theme was maybe too much at the time.
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Theres an invitation!