Wedge

Public area => The Pub => Topic started by: Xarcell on March 29th, 2011, 06:42 PM

Title: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Xarcell on March 29th, 2011, 06:42 PM

So when is Wedge going to be released?

lol, j/k.

I do not expect it anytime soon, and I hope you guys take your time working on it. I don't want to see you guys get frustrated with members, and I definitely don't want to see you guys get burned out.

Keep up the good work!

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Dr. Deejay on March 29th, 2011, 06:51 PM

Definitely not before SMF 2 gold is released ;)

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 06:52 PM

No, it's not a stupid question, but it's already been addressed in the FAQ IIRC.
I hope we'll be able to release a first usable alpha version within the first week (or month, at worst) of SMF2's Final release. Really, right now it's perfectly usable. I could make a small package out of it and release it here. Really no big deal. Of course, it won't have an importer tool out of the box, so until we go officially beta (or even final), you won't be able to switch to Wedge, only play with it. It's already a lot ;)

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Xarcell on March 29th, 2011, 07:04 PM

I understand. The post was more of a joke really.

I just hope it's really polished and at least 99% percent of the work is done before it's even released as a beta. I only say that because I don't want Nao & Arantor to get frustrated with us asking about crap all the time.

I feel bad for Nao at times because at one point he got hammered with nonsense support questions over avea at SMF. I remember one fella asked how to do something and the answer was in a post directly above his. I was like WTF?

But then again, we all make our mistakes. I'm sure I've gotten on Arantor's nerves at times at SMF when he was helping me with stuff.

It's good that you guys keep this under-wraps for awhile. Just plan a good support team and documention for when it's released(officially).

Truth is I'm just afraid to see this project fail. I know Nao and Arantor are tough and hardest to break, but I'm been somewhat involved in several SMF projects over the past 5 years and I don't think a single one made it at 100% intented. I'm edger to see what you guys do with it, and just want to make sure you guys have room to breathe. People can be like locusts at times...

Keep it safe, keep it secret.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 07:26 PM

Quote from Xarcell on March 29th, 2011, 07:04 PM

I just hope it's really polished and at least 99% percent of the work is done before it's even released as a beta.

That's why we'll go alpha first :P
Just today, I realized the Print Page feature was broken. I'm currently working on fixing it.

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I only say that because I don't want Nao & Arantor to get frustrated with us asking about crap all the time.

Oh -- I'll just ignore that after a while. I'd rather ignore stuff than jump into another pointless flamewar. (Even if I kinda miss a few of last year's flamewars, ah ah... Well, not that much.)

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I feel bad for Nao at times because at one point he got hammered with nonsense support questions over avea at SMF.

And I see that it hasn't changed. Same crap, even a year after -- even after all these FAQs I wrote. Even after all the changes I wrote in the code to make it support-free really. Pete had the same problem with SimpleDesk. The bigger and the better the work, the more people will look into it -- and unfortunately it also means the more idiots will. :P

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I remember one fella asked how to do something and the answer was in a post directly above his. I was like WTF?

Maybe I should write a feature for Wedge where when you post something, Wedge analyzes the message, then analyzes the 2 last posts and if the answer is in there, it redirects you to a lolcatz. That would be swell.

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It's good that you guys keep this under-wraps for awhile. Just plan a good support team and documention for when it's released(officially).

We'll have to rely on others for that, I'm afraid. Pete tried to document the source code files but stopped after doing the big ones (Load.php, Subs.php etc), it's really a tedious job. I personally wouldn't do that for anything. My idea is that if your feature needs documentation, then it's not intuitive enough. Also, for modders I've tried to comment my code as much as possible (considering the fact that I rarely comment my own code), so if one can't figure out what my code does, I'd rather not have them release a plugin for Wedge anyway :P

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Truth is I'm just afraid to see this project fail. I know Nao and Arantor are tough and hardest to break, but I'm been somewhat involved in several SMF projects over the past 5 years and I don't think a single one made it at 100% intented.

Wedge started small. We started by cleaning up the pointless code. Then we added our own mods to the thing. At that point we were expecting SMF2 to go live soon, and to release our code immediately. When it became clear that they were going to be very late, we started adding more features. We're trying not to add big features without planning them out carefully, so these days we're mainly doing maintenance on the alpha codebase. The only thing missing from the intended alpha release is the integration of Aeva Media. I think I'm halfway through it but I haven't touched the code in weeks now. Porting mods over to Wedge won't be easy, I'm telling you. However, it's compensated by the fact that it's much cleaner, too, and more powerful.

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I'm edger to see what you guys do with it, and just want to make sure you guys have room to breathe. People can be like locusts at times...

We take deep breaths from time to time. Last month I took a few days' break to play Radiant Historia. :lol:
Pete is currently busy on other things like he is from time to time, so he's not as active as I am, but he always makes up for it by adding a few big features everytime he comes back. Aranator: "I'll be back!" And he always is.

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Keep it safe, keep it secret.

We have our private area. I'll be posting there the most, as usual. I'll leave the public spamming to Pete. :niark:

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: garou on March 29th, 2011, 07:32 PM

Quote from Xarcell on March 29th, 2011, 07:04 PM

Truth is I'm just afraid to see this project fail. I know Nao and Arantor are tough and hardest to break, but I'm been somewhat involved in several SMF projects over the past 5 years and I don't think a single one made it at 100% intented. I'm edger to see what you guys do with it, and just want to make sure you guys have room to breathe.

I think one of the best things that will make this a success is that while Nao and Arantor are keeping the future community in mind for this project, it's first and for most for their own purposes. The have said elsewhere, if no one else ever uses it they'd be fine with that. I think that gives it an edge over most other projects out there.

All to often projects like these get bogged down by community and committees (a big part of whats slowing SMF down at the moment IMHO). This isnt about what does everyone else want, its about what I, err I mean, they (Nao and Arantor) want out of it. Incidentally what they want out of it is what many of us in the SMF community have been looking for, for a long time.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Dismal Shadow on March 29th, 2011, 07:35 PM

"What you want to develop is not what want to develop." init? ;)

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: garou on March 29th, 2011, 07:41 PM

Well if everyone wanted the same thing there wouldn't be so many different message board systems out there. We'd all be using the same thing.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: live627 on March 29th, 2011, 09:40 PM

Meaning no competition, which in turn leads to software not being intuitive by trying to stay ahead of the curve.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 10:28 PM

That's what caused IE6's downfall; for those who weren't around at the turn of the decade, the browser wars were fizzling and IE pushed the boundary by introducing what would eventually become known as XmlHttpRequest - the technology that makes AJAX possible. Before IE did it, the only way to do it was through popups and hidden frames, which is neither elegant nor practical.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 10:49 PM

Funny to think that Netscape's inability to compete was what plunged the Internet into darkness for so many years... :^^;:

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 10:52 PM

Netscape's inability to compete was evident from the moment it arrived being a paid package, when IE was free and bundled.

I saw the last couple of major versions of Netscape before it failed entirely and it was getting more and more sluggish as time went on - it was slower then (relatively) than FF is now, and FF is sluggish these days.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: DoctorMalboro on March 29th, 2011, 11:00 PM

One thing that would be interesting is a list of coding features. I mean, not the core features, but the things that allow you to (as a themer o modder) make your work even easier and clean as possible.

Not many (I know any) that list that kind of things, even less document it...

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Snape on March 29th, 2011, 11:09 PM

Quote from Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 10:52 PM

Netscape's inability to compete was evident from the moment it arrived being a paid package, when IE was free and bundled.

I saw the last couple of major versions of Netscape before it failed entirely and it was getting more and more sluggish as time went on - it was slower then (relatively) than FF is now, and FF is sluggish these days.

That was their mistake for crawling in bed with AOL.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 11:16 PM

Quote from DoctorMalboro on March 29th, 2011, 11:00 PM

One thing that would be interesting is a list of coding features. I mean, not the core features, but the things that allow you to (as a themer o modder) make your work even easier and clean as possible.

Not many (I know any) that list that kind of things, even less document it...

Oh, we will, once they settle down and mature. Right now it's still in a state of flux.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 11:20 PM

Quote from garou on March 29th, 2011, 07:32 PM

I think one of the best things that will make this a success is that while Nao and Arantor are keeping the future community in mind for this project, it's first and for most for their own purposes. The have said elsewhere, if no one else ever uses it they'd be fine with that. I think that gives it an edge over most other projects out there.

Most of the time, motivation comes through a payroll... Well, it's out of the question here so it's really all about passion (and ego, but we can manage. I think.) And Pete and I are known to be very obstinate!

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All to often projects like these get bogged down by community and committees (a big part of whats slowing SMF down at the moment IMHO). This isnt about what does everyone else want, its about what I, err I mean, they (Nao and Arantor) want out of it. Incidentally what they want out of it is what many of us in the SMF community have been looking for, for a long time.

Such a long time, yes. It was long overdue when we started work on Wedge -- but at the time, the license change was only a new concept in SMF's mind and it opened the door to forks. Well, I don't know how many forks will come out of it, maybe Wedge will be the 'definitive' one.

Posted: March 29th, 2011, 11:18 PM

Quote from DoctorMalboro on March 29th, 2011, 11:00 PM

One thing that would be interesting is a list of coding features. I mean, not the core features, but the things that allow you to (as a themer o modder) make your work even easier and clean as possible.

Modders won't get a lot of new features in the current implementation. Themers, though, will have a lot of fun. (Or they'll curse me for daring change everything in SMF's theme system, I don't know.)

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 11:31 PM

Oh, modders will get features but they won't be able to get them through theme edits so much, there are better ways.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: DoctorMalboro on March 29th, 2011, 11:32 PM

So even a hot stud like myself can code in wedge without wanting to rape a koala?

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 11:34 PM

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far, but it should certainly be easier than fighting with SMF at times.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 11:36 PM

And in the end, what matters is that there are no editing conflicts... Which usually make up for 80% of the support workload on big mods!

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 11:47 PM

I went to crazy lengths to avoid edit conflicts in SimpleDesk, obscene in some cases, and got the opportunity to point out how bad SMF's structure is for extending things. Rest assured the knowledge I'm gaining from working on SimpleDesk (for my own ends as much as anything else) will come to play a direct part in what I do with Wedge.

I know at least one change implemented in Wedge that I made specifically came about because of something I had to do in SimpleDesk (the register-replacements thing in the DB layer) to avoid edits.

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Nao on March 29th, 2011, 11:59 PM

Quote from Arantor on March 29th, 2011, 11:47 PM

I went to crazy lengths to avoid edit conflicts in SimpleDesk, obscene in some cases, and got the opportunity to point out how bad SMF's structure is for extending things. Rest assured the knowledge I'm gaining from working on SimpleDesk (for my own ends as much as anything else) will come to play a direct part in what I do with Wedge.

Makes me think I have a reply to finish posting over at the topic where we discuss edit-less templates ;)

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I know at least one change implemented in Wedge that I made specifically came about because of something I had to do in SimpleDesk (the register-replacements thing in the DB layer) to avoid edits.

Yeah... That change was damn cool, Pete. :)
Do you realize that you actually made me *like* OO programming? Well, at least not hate it anymore. And I've been pestering at OO for something like 15 years ;)

Title: Re: I Have To Be The First To Ask
Post by: Arantor on March 30th, 2011, 12:15 AM

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Makes me think I have a reply to finish posting over at the topic where we discuss edit-less templates

Well, breaking the templates down in the same way I did for the board index would help as a start, need to do more of that.

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Yeah... That change was damn cool, Pete.

It's the only way I could solve the matter of {query_see_ticket} without doing either manual editing of the DB library (as, say, Project Tools does) or a wrapper function (which is what I did in SimpleDesk and while that gave me freedom in some ways, it is a burden too)

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Do you realize that you actually made me *like* OO programming? Well, at least not hate it anymore. And I've been pestering at OO for something like 15 years

It's something I had to learn and learn fast for other things, and when used properly, it's lovely to work with. But like everything else it's a tool to be used and there are places it's not appropriate.