Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 12:35 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say!
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(Full picture here(http://media.wedge.org/media/31/).)
Post by: Aaron on July 15th, 2011, 12:44 AM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 12:50 AM
Oh, and I translated everything on the page but somehow managed to miss the second post's title, lol. Time for bed anyway!
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 01:21 AM
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(Full picture and some of my comments here(http://media.wedge.org/item/32/).)
:edit: Fixed the link to point where I want, heh.
Post by: Mari-chi on July 15th, 2011, 02:27 AM
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 02:30 AM
Post by: Dismal Shadow on July 15th, 2011, 02:33 AM
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 02:35 AM
Post by: b4pjoe on July 15th, 2011, 03:02 AM
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 03:04 AM
Post by: dazed on July 15th, 2011, 03:49 AM
Post by: snoopy-virtual on July 15th, 2011, 04:24 AM
Let's get the beer out to celebrate (and some wine for Nao of course) :niark:
Post by: live627 on July 15th, 2011, 05:34 AM
Post by: spoogs on July 15th, 2011, 05:35 AM
Post by: Gary on July 15th, 2011, 06:01 AM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 06:54 AM
Oh, I did the redesign for the fieldset, too. I felt I had to do it because Pete is so much in love with fieldsets and likes using them everywhere. Now with good reason :D (This is all part of the 'work in progress', as we have yet to see whether we'll use fieldsets a lot or just on the odd page.)
Post by: Dr. Deejay on July 15th, 2011, 07:15 AM
Post by: Drunken Clam on July 15th, 2011, 07:19 AM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Post by: Dragooon on July 15th, 2011, 11:50 AM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 12:18 PM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 12:44 PM
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http://media.wedge.org/item/33/
Which do you prefer?
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I like that, possibly more than the one currently in SVN. The one thing I'm not sure about is the fact the userbox items are all right aligned when I'm so used to seeing them left aligned - but again I think it's simply a case of being *so* used to left aligned that right aligned is just change I'm not used to (and hence all the psych consequences of resistance to change)
The reason I right-aligned them is because if they remain left-aligned, suddenly it feels more 'crowded' in the vicinity of the post itself. When you reach the end of the line in a post, you find yourself in close contact with the beginning of the text in the user box.
A solution would be to increase padding between elements, but that could end up reducing the message width too drastically. Of course, a workaround for that would be to decrease the font size, but then the effect would be lost.
I'm just not sure about the best solution to apply here.
(And I'm glad we're now going to be able to ask users for feedback :P)
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 01:59 PM
A solution would be to increase padding between elements, but that could end up reducing the message width too drastically. Of course, a workaround for that would be to decrease the font size, but then the effect would be lost.
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 02:23 PM
Post by: Dr. Deejay on July 15th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 02:30 PM
Post by: Nao on July 15th, 2011, 02:49 PM
Post by: Arantor on July 15th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Post by: Antes on July 15th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Post by: DoctorMalboro on July 15th, 2011, 03:28 PM
Post by: spoogs on July 15th, 2011, 03:52 PM
Post by: Nao on July 16th, 2011, 12:08 AM
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http://media.wedge.org/item/43/ for a full description of what should be of interest.
From now on, I'll try to focus on interface elements, new features etc, anything that doesn't require a fullscreen screenshot.
Post by: Arantor on July 16th, 2011, 12:55 AM
I certainly am fascinated by that direction.
Plus, the more complex you make the default, the more functionality you give it, the more there is to break, and the more there is to be broken by other themes that don't support all the options given in the core. It's an interesting direction, but it is not to be taken lightly.
Post by: Arantor on July 16th, 2011, 01:17 AM
But I am been hacking at it for some years now, and feel confident enough to pursue it.
I feel the WAY options are presented are often the problem.
One of the observations I've made over the years of SMF's admin panel is that it's been built by programmers, not UI designers. I consider myself more in the former group, but I still put some effort into the UIs I design from a design/utilitarian POV, and I don't think enough developers do that - the result is that all of the admin panels tend to be complex and cluttered, but the devs can tell you where any option is because it made sense to them to do it that way.
For example, post moderation. I understand mechanically why it was implemented how it was, but is there any need for three separate variations on the same settings to be presented (permissions/simple view, permissions/classic view, Permissions > Post Moderation)? Would it not be better to create a single method instead?
As for the streams of ticky boxes, that was something I knew I'd encounter in SimpleDesk and while the solution implemented isn't perfect, it does remedy it somewhat: the preferences are broken down by groups, and the groups are collapsed by default, so you only see the preferences you want to adjust at a time.
That's why I'm slowly phasing out Core Features. In itself, it's relatively meaningful - each feature has a big shiny button to enable it. But, you have to press Save (belying the apparent ease of use) and it's not immediately clear that there are more options to enable because of this otherwise hidden dialogue. (And in some cases, it was actually a waste of time doing it that way, e.g. profile fields, since as far as I can tell it never even checked the actual setting; the setting just does a little housekeeping that the rest of the screen could easily do instead)
Post by: Road Rash Jr. on July 16th, 2011, 02:02 AM
I feel the WAY options are presented are often the problem. No-one likes long pages of tick'able boxes.
Post by: Arantor on July 16th, 2011, 02:07 AM
Take SimpleDesk. There's pages of options that I doubt most people will ever touch in there. Sure, it's nice to offer the choice, but in reality most of the time the choice doesn't benefit you and makes it harder to find the options you actually want or need.
Plus the fact that the more options you put in, the more there is to break, the more there is to slow things down, the more there is to put people off making new stuff, and just for fun, the more there is to deal with people change things and don't know how they've done it.
Classic example: in SMF, you can actually disable the ability for users to mark a topic or board read. You can also disable the ability to actually have sticky topics. Yet I never knew of any users who ever actually disabled these options, and as such it only added unnecessary complexity for most users and benefitted a tiny proportion who might turn them off.
Post by: Nao on July 16th, 2011, 10:58 PM
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http://media.wedge.org/item/44/
Post by: Nao on July 16th, 2011, 11:00 PM
Looking good now, more polished. I am not quite so sure about the color choices - I fear it will too washed out to be really stand out, but thats just my opinion.
Default themes have always been met with "default theme is awful" but in the end, that is what makes them stand out, that "everyone" use it and hate/love it. It becomes a trademark.
I certainly am fascinated by that direction.
Post by: koja on July 18th, 2011, 12:12 PM
I am not about the idea that every reply does have to contain header (it is the name of the thread in 99%) and also I personaly prefer shorter "profile" area on the left side of each post. Think it improve readability and reduce (at least my) frustration when reading discussion of one sentence replies 300px at height each because I need to be told which size of shoes the authors wear.
Post by: Arantor on July 18th, 2011, 01:41 PM
That said, I'm more inclined to remove from the admin panel rather than add, but I'm sure we can do something with it.
Post by: Clara Listensprechen on July 18th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Which is why no-one dares to do it. ;D But I am been hacking at it for some years now, and feel confident enough to pursue it.
I feel the WAY options are presented are often the problem. No-one likes long pages of tick'able boxes. And thats not something I would seek to create either - finding intuitive ways is half the fun for me personally. Which prob. can also be said about your quest of making the admin page easier. :)
Post by: shadow82x on July 24th, 2011, 05:55 AM
Post by: Nao on July 24th, 2011, 09:22 AM
This is basically what it looks like when resizing the window and then hovering the mouse over the minimized sidebar...
(Obviously it does so through a CSS3 animation.)
Post by: shadow82x on July 25th, 2011, 08:10 AM
Post by: Nao on July 25th, 2011, 11:04 AM
Post by: Dragooon on July 25th, 2011, 01:41 PM
Some people aren't too happy with it (like, it has no arrow/visual clue that the div can be expanded, except for the small part of it that shows up), but it can be improved.
Post by: Nao on July 25th, 2011, 02:10 PM
Post by: Dismal Shadow on July 26th, 2011, 01:57 PM
| 1. | I hope it's a option as I am at the fence of having it in the right |
Post by: Nao on July 26th, 2011, 02:16 PM
And yes I'll add a setting to show it on the left.
Post by: Dismal Shadow on July 26th, 2011, 02:27 PM
Post by: Arantor on July 26th, 2011, 02:42 PM
Interesting idea, can't see it being useful on most forums though.
Post by: Nao on July 26th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Ideally, I would use that to differentiate blog authors from commentators (commenters?). It's been seen done this way, at least!
Post by: Dismal Shadow on July 26th, 2011, 05:50 PM
Interesting idea, can't see it being useful on most forums though.
Post by: Xarcell on July 26th, 2011, 07:03 PM
I also hope you guys plan to remove as many of the theme images as you can, most of that can be done with CSS now.
Post by: Nao on July 26th, 2011, 07:07 PM
Can you do it better?
Theme images are mostly gone yes. They have been for a year. Possibly the very first change I made in Wedge.
Post by: Xarcell on July 26th, 2011, 08:25 PM
What exactly looks bad to you?
Can you do it better?
Theme images are mostly gone yes. They have been for a year. Possibly the very first change I made in Wedge.
It seems icons were added(to every link it seems), which I think are unnecessary. It creates clutter, and if you removed them it would look more "clean". I'm talking about all of them. Do you really need icons beside of "quote" and "modify". What about in the sidebarm in the titles, do they really need icons? What of the menu, links with a dropdown have 2 icons, one on each side.
Text strings could use some changing as well, similar to what you have already done here. They should be:
- Show Unread Topics
- Show Unread Replies
But then, there are alot of text strings that need to be changed if wedge is similar to SMF.
Post by: Nao on July 26th, 2011, 09:48 PM
Also, the action area was changed last week with the addition of a mini menu to give more space overall. But I'm sure you'll find fault in that, too. I do my best but some people always know better. Why don't you go ahead and try making a smf fork yourself? ::)
Post by: Xarcell on July 26th, 2011, 10:41 PM
You're not making any sense. You say you like the admin panel with its dozens of icons then you say you don't like icons. Then you criticize our use of icons in the action area when smf does exactly the same.
Also, the action area was changed last week with the addition of a mini menu to give more space overall. But I'm sure you'll find fault in that, too. I do my best but some people always know better. Why don't you go ahead and try making a smf fork yourself? ::)
Yes, I like the admin panel better than SMF, it's looks "cleaner". However the post itself doesn't look cleaner than SMF. That is a matter of "my opinion". It's your fork, you make it how you want it. I won't bother you with petty details again. I don't want to sit here and get into an ego battle with you about the technically of my feedback.
I will just keep reminding myself of what you said in the beginning. You and Pete are designing the software to how you guys would like it, not how everyone else would like it, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I was just excited about the development of wedge. It won't happen again, as I will keep my opinions to myself.
Post by: Nao on July 27th, 2011, 09:38 AM
I guess I'm wrong to voice my opinion here. I should have known better.
Yes, SMF shouldn't use icons either, I never said they should.
I have not seen the mini menu, so I have no opinion of that. So stop making assumptions please. I'm just leaving constructive criticism.
I will just keep reminding myself of what you said in the beginning. You and Pete are designing the software to how you guys would like it, not how everyone else would like it, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I was just excited about the development of wedge.
Way to go for positivism. When it comes to the visuals, Pete did the admin panel and I did 'everything else'. You know, the part that looks terribile. Of course you're not going to please me. ::)
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 11:15 PM
Text strings could use some changing as well, similar to what you have already done here. They should be:
- Show Unread Topics
- Show Unread Replies
Post by: Rustybarnacle on July 28th, 2011, 05:31 PM
But I like icons.
Post by: Arantor on July 28th, 2011, 05:33 PM
on how to use symbols that the brain automagically recognizes for what they are meant to be without ever being taught
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2011, 11:04 AM
Colour has two predominant factors to consider as far as we're concerned: usability and inference.
Usability because it's possible to have UI issues out of colour mismatches - not only pure legibility but I remember an issue that came up in Crimson Editor's development that had to be changed. Specifically, up until it got open sourced, you had tabs and a little lamp indicating whether the file had been saved or not since the last edit: red for unsaved changed, green for no changes since last save. Except that users with red/green colour blindness had real trouble differentiating them. (And R/G colour blindness is the most predominant form, more common in males, too)
Culture issues aren't a huge thing for us but it can be on some things. There was a really good UI overview document I found somewhere that explained it in a bit more depth.[1]
For example on page 43 it has an image that lists a pig, a US-style mailbox, the 'OK' gesture and a Red Cross logo, and goes on to say that the pig is likely offensive to multiple cultures, that US-style mailboxes are uncommon even unknown outside the US, the OK gesture is actually an offensive one in South America and the Red Cross logo is unfamiliar to many and that a cross has no significance to billions of people.[2]
More of interest is the table on page 44 listing different colours and their culture effects, that red for example is a warning colour in our perspective but that other colours see red as a colour of strength, anger or vibrancy. Interestingly the only colour that has positive connotations across the board is green.
Note that this doesn't mean we should change anything that we have, because for the users who will most likely use Wedge, they're in the Western Europe/US group, which generally means we have similar cultural connotations for colour (green = good, red = danger/bad, that sort of thing), but it is worth being aware of it, I find.
| 1. | http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~bockusd/3p94/webui1.pdf has the full thing for now, it's well worth a read even though it looks like it's years out of date, because the principles it talks about are still true now. |
| 2. | I think there's a little exaggeration going on here, but the general point is valid. |
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2011, 03:36 PM
Except that users with red/green colour blindness had real trouble differentiating them. (And R/G colour blindness is the most predominant form, more common in males, too)
http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/~bockusd/3p94/webui1.pdf has the full thing for now, it's well worth a read even though it looks like it's years out of date, because the principles it talks about are still true now.
Note that this doesn't mean we should change anything that we have, because for the users who will most likely use Wedge, they're in the Western Europe/US group, which generally means we have similar cultural connotations for colour (green = good, red = danger/bad, that sort of thing), but it is worth being aware of it, I find.
Post by: Arantor on August 1st, 2011, 03:41 PM
Ah, color blindness... I never seem to be able to take that into consideration when doing my stuff.
It's not really out of date,
I understood from it that the only 'safe' colors to use are non-primary colors really...
Exactly -- we're building for the Western area. We can worry about the rest of the world later.
Post by: Nao on August 1st, 2011, 04:54 PM
Actually, none of your stuff seems to have contrast in the areas that typical colour blindness would have a problem with.