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Messages - Oracle
61
The Pub / Re: Getting ready for an alpha release: CSS fixes
« on September 4th, 2012, 10:28 PM »
Quote from spoogs on September 4th, 2012, 09:37 PM
I don't really have a take on this, mainly because I'd probably not be using it reduced. If I had a preference I think I'd rather the sidebar be hidden. Having to choose from the options above I'd go with b since thats where everyone else seems to be :P
Quote from Arantor on September 4th, 2012, 07:14 PM
I think a lot of it is that I don't really think we can fully understand the consequences for the changes, that's one of the problems. I have no idea of what the consequences will be for any of the choices.
^^^This is me for sure ^^^
Your not alone Spoogs!
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The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 31st, 2012, 04:08 PM »
Theres an invitation!
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The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 26th, 2012, 06:41 PM »
Quote from Arantor on August 25th, 2012, 05:26 AM
I'm just very, VERY sensitive to people that come out with statements about how it isn't what they've expected. Bear in mind that I've also been known to write a lot of free mods, give them away for free and then get crap from people because I didn't make *exactly what they wanted*.
-   Peter >  In regards to sensitivity, if I can set your mind @ ease. No hint of expectation was tendered on my part. My input and that’s all I view it as, was given in the form of feedback nothing more. The Topic header says it all and I just happened to check the last option. It’s an honest appraisal as to why I thought the themes didn’t cut it, it wasn’t intended to come across as criticism which your implying. Anyway, I thought that’s what you were looking for- participation?
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Fair comment. Though I find it interesting to note that Bloc has actually been taking some of the ideas we proposed here... and it should also be noted that the default theme of every single forum software is bland. That's by design, and with one specific reason: it provides a structure for people to build upon.
-   I daren’t comment on your friend.  > Bland - Yes I understood that to be the case obviously for clarity within fields as well but it’s really not that big a deal being different in UI surely, even if it’s subtle. You do highlight in yr next paragraph of a difference. Shades of black /grey, halftones, whatever, something that differentiates you however slightly, from the rest.  Nothing quite a stand out or as dazzling as Dragoons little gem. Thanks for the needle btw!
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It is different to the norm. But it also has to perform the same actions as the norm, and on top of that, we will get complaints if it doesn't perform the norm.
-   Code/functions etc are within your area of expertise and you have that covered. Whatever you do, is fine by me. As for my suggestion I won’t be phased if you don’t take it on board.
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Because we have to balance a goal that a lot of people seem to have forgotten.
-   I’m acutely aware of what your trying to achieve with balance. As for my suggestion Im not fussed one way or the other, however I still see it’s only cosmetic and not that big a deal... certainly not change for change sake. Most if not all forums UIs do look outdated and as though they were modelled a decade ago. I still feel that’s reason enough to take on a new look particularly in Wedges case..” To give Wedge a bit of an Edge”
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Change for the sake of improvement is great. And there is a lot of change for the sake of improvement. However, change for the sake of change is not improvement. > A forum has certain functional requirements that have to be adhered to. There's only so far you can go from those functional requirements and still remain generically usable for a lot of sites. As I demonstrated on Game Memorial, you can do some very nice customisation but that customisation is simply not suitable for every single site. I applied a setup that turned a board into a blog. But it won't suit most forums. It will make a difference for blog boards, sure, but I guarantee that what I did on GM will likely not be suitable for most sites if any others. (I'm not entirely sure it works on GM at this point, but hey, it's experimental.)
-    Minor change on aesthetics or being a little different in terms of offering improved appeal shouldn’t be viewed as non conforming or even as wasted effort just because things have worked well in the past. It coincides with what your attempting to achieve with your software. I see nothing wrong with change for whatever reason and doubt very much that you would get that level of negativity from users with what I’m proposing.
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It started out pretty much that way. That said, can you really convince me that the thoughts/conversation system will be suitable for most sites, for example? It's basically reimplementing what's on Noisen, however it's likely to be usable enough for a lot more sites, so it got included.
Also note that there's not a great lot of code that's actually original from 10 years ago ;)
-   Whatever affects one will affect the whole. You saw there was a need and you acted on it. No different @ this end?
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Creating a fresh approach does mean so much more than just doing design. It has to support customisations, the entire range of customisations that Wedge will be able to support, as well as all the features that we want it to have. AND it still has to be suitable for a vast, vast range of sites, a criteria that theme designers generally do not have to deal with.
-   Understand.
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Let's take Bloc as a classic example. How enthusiastic do you think he was when designing Curve, as opposed to all the other creative themes he's done? Can you also imagine *ANY* of Bloc's newer themes being the default for ANY forum package, which by definition has to be a base, rather than the end product?
-   Your taking it out of context that’s not what I implied @ all. Subtle change to UI in order not only to differentiate Wedge from the rest but to upgrade from decade old deigns and to cater for people such as our banker friend with glasses...sharper fonts etc.
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Are they really? Both are on-going works in progress with active users. Both have users with user psychology. The only real difference is scale.
-   Oh yes they are, admittedly both may be works in progress but if you really want to compare apples with apples and not oranges - ones not yet released whereas the other is! > And to have reached that stage they would have and did investigate their UI and have come up with something different. You did say in one of your writings Facebook was basically a forum? So why did they feel the need to alter convention for the sake of their new product? - Like I said take it or leave it.
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There is a whole world receptive to change. Except they're by far the minority. And even then, they're not receptive to change for the sake of change, they're receptive to change when they're aiming for a specific change or improvement - or getting anyway from a specific bug or issue.
-   Disagree. How do you explain the mass exodus from My Space to Facebook &Twitter for that matter. All their members ride the wave of popularity not because they’re stuck in the past but because they embrace change, if their needs are catered for and if there is an improved offering that’s where they’ll be. All examples in question have marketed themselves to the fullest. Not as prototypes but fully released products packaging and all. Albeit electronic.
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Except Facebook's UI has had several major shifts in the last 8 years. The world of websites is quite different to conventional product design and marketing, because conventional products have to do the whole design, user experience testing etc. then the product hits the market. But with a website, the product essentially evolves over time and can respond to user feedback and so on as time goes on.
-   Feedback, I like that word I have plenty of it. Here’s something to cogitate – You talk about change and differences between conventional and electronic environments - Mazda decides to release a new vehicle that essentially is a revised model utilizing existing design with improvements but with a fresh new look and why do you think that is the case?  Not only to enhance sales and keep abreast of their competitors. They recognise their customer base and that they are quite fussy with regard to appearance and function and are always on the lookout for something new. They embrace change! - If they are not provided with new options they go elsewhere. Fact! – What happens next is that once this new product has been released  a fault in the cruise control is discovered that’s detrimental to drivers safety, they don’t go through the drawn out processes your suggesting that industry may operate under, being “conventional “. No their response is immediate and as instantaneous as your suggesting electronic media operates.  It could be said EM is a more dynamic arena to operate within, nonetheless, they react and do so with vigour.

-   When Faceboook’s UI was introduced I would wager it wasn’t steeped in tradition. It too was sensitive to the needs and idiosyncrasies of their target audience and by that I mean it hadn’t released decade old styling. Their designers were attuned to the needs of many and modelled their product accordingly.
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Yes, there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost. And that's the crux of this debate. We have a fundamental functional requirement to meet. Major UI overhauls will not change that fact, and there's a reason why forum UI has not significantly altered in over a decade - no-one has yet been able to improve upon it in a meaningful way for the majority of users. Yes, individual users and individual sites might have specific improvements but we simply can't just include major UI shifts in the base software, no matter how much people complain.
-   The crux of this debate is whether a MINOR - UI overhaul affects the fundamental functional requirement your trying to meet and whether it’s of importance to your overall offering and if you have sufficient resources to implement same. People embrace change as Facebook has demonstrated. Design of your product should encompass investigation of UI as a major feature to captivate your user’s attention.
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That's merely a matter of semantics, actually. Most of what is in Wedge is a round of iteration on top of SMF 2.0 which is a round of iteration on top of SMF 1.1, on top of SMF 1.0, on top of YaBB SE, on top of YaBB, on top of UBB, on top of migrating the conventional newsgroup concepts to a web based environment. It's one long line of iterations.
From a user experience standpoint, we're iterating on top of what is in SMF 2.0. There's a lot of iteration in some places, less in others.
Wedge is not really prototyping user experience, it's mostly a technical phase of prototyping. I fully expect way more iteration to occur in response to user feedback - because it's a constant iterative process, not the conventional product evolution process that physical products have.
-   You’ve certainly got a lot on your plate Pete as does Nao so I won’t be occupying any more of your time. I’ll keep the remainder of my responses brief.
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I've been a Facebook user for several years. A great number of changes, large and small, have occurred in that time, not least 'Timeline'. It's an iterative process. Have a read of http://facebooklayout.com/blog/a-look-at-the-changing-layouts-of-facebook/
-   Yes but your timeline comparison to wedge is not in sync. I’m talking Wedges release to Facebooks not Facebook as it is today. It’s like walking out in the street in your pyjamas as your going to work...Convention dictates we are to get dressed before venturing into public.
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Well done, you've taken on board my argument and turned your own 180 in the process.
-   Ha hahaa > Hang on your sounding like a politician. Read the rest of the sentence, something about hand in hand. – you are good!
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Form follows function, quite right. The function of a forum hasn't changed in decades. Small parts of the process have. Specific implementations might also have changed. But the bulk of operations have not changed. As a result, the theme in Wedge needs to follow that approach. There is really very little major change we can do to the form of Wedge as a consequence.
-   Your within your right to take that line and I’m OK with that.
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Nope. That really is an apples and oranges comparison.
-    I believe I’ve addressed that one.
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I realise that, and I'm glad you feel better for having got it off your chest :) On the flip side, I firmly disagree with aspects of your argument because I think they're valid, but rooted firmly in a different background. I'm also pretty sure you're not seeing it from the perspective that Nao and I have to consider - we're in the position whereby we have to consider how users will use the software.
-   No definitely can’t agree with your position on this. It’s your project but the principle behind what I’m drawing on is one and same irrespective of differing backgrounds. Marketing any product encompasses the whole package whether electronic, hydraulic, whatever. Forget about iterations or design changes and how speedily they’re implemented and whether all users will benefit. It’s the Product that counts first and foremost, or the way it FUNCTION’S that’s under control – Then comes Presentation or the FORM in which the product is delivered to your audience. And as stated packaging accounts for a whole lot when it comes to sales as outlined in Mazda’s case, it addresses the needs of the masses. Sure the product has to sell itself with the differing features it provides but the eye candy is what gets people in as well. In your case advertisements and UI grab the attention of potential users and draw them to product.
-   Here’s a thought...Why so much focus on Logotype development and not as much on UI...they lend themselves to defining Wedges identity. Their importance in terms of defining Wedges marketability is of equal significance as is the performance of the product?
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Why do they do this, I wonder? Could it be that they have to be carefully neutral across all the different uses that their software will generate and that they have to remain neutral to allow users to customise for their specific site?
-   Neutral is what I’m suggesting but with subtle difference to existing traditional styling, not major change as you keep implying!
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The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 25th, 2012, 04:16 AM »
Quote from Arantor on August 24th, 2012, 11:48 PM
I was hoping for people to understand that there's only so much that two people can do in their spare time when life intervenes. I was also hoping that people wouldn't just expect miracles from us and that instead of expecting it to be wonderful, might actually be prepared to put some effort in down the line, but I guess no-one's going to be happy today.
Thanks for getting back Pete, very sorry if Ive offended it was'nt my intention. I was merely attempting to convey some feedback on your theme selections as thats what I understood this topic to be about. I'm in no way expectant of miracles and am perfectly happy with the efforts both yourself and Nao have put into Wedge to this point. I wouldn't be here if I wasnt interested in what you were doing. Unfortunately my expertise in development is somewhat limited so Im relegated to commentary. Hopefully you can appreciate that.
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Uh, no. Let's just say that Bloc and us don't get on very well at all. You should read the debate. It would be informative.
Have done - remark was tongue in cheek - drawing on pun, I suppose not in the best of taste.
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Why? Forum software as we currently know it is over a decade old. It has not changed significantly in that time. The implication to me is that it has not changed significantly in that time because it works well for its task.There are always going to be individual cases where very big customisations are appropriate. But for the majority of forums, the standard forum structure works extremely well.
That may be the case but I was under the impression what you were doing with Wedge WAS different to the norm - socialization, board structure the whole package. Yes there are reasons why you branched from SMF but the underlying motivation was surely one that was centred on improvement. Why create Wedge if change wasn't required? Its impossible to believe Wedge falls in the category of a huge customisation. You have invested so much energy and sacrifice into something that was for purely for supposed personal use? The vibe im getting is your striving for so much more than a streamlined 10 year old system that works. Personally, the whole exercise seems like a new beginning in forum software hence my remarks on endeavouring to create a fresh approach with themes, not as an adjunct but a marketing ploy which coincides with the release of Wedge.
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There's two other things to consider.- 1. How much screaming and carrying on goes on every single time Facebook implements a major change to their UI? Why do you suppose this is? - 2. As a sort of corollary to the answer to the above question, something that is a long way departed from the conventional forum structure is actually going to confuse people, leading to a feeling of detachment, ostricisation, and any headway made out of doing something different is lost.

It doesn't matter how different it is, if no-one wants to use it because no-one understands it. Why do you think so many people want to emulate the layouts of other software?
1. Yes people are resistant to change but theres a whole world out there thats also receptive to it. I feel your not comparing apples with apples where Wedge and Facebook is concerned - Theyre @ different stages of development.

Consideration to UI would have taken place well in advance of its emergence onto the marketplace. With the release of any new product there is an overall focus on design/function first and foremost, then brandname. Although they are separate entities they are inextricably linked. Before release to public the product passes through prototype phase which Wedge is currently in. Once approved for release the product is then subjected to a marketing phase which comprises of not only the promotional aspect but packaging before sale to public - Or in Wedges case its UI. You cant release a product in its raw form you have to window dress it in order for it to enhance its appeal. Which is what Im concentrating in my own way. Facebook would certainly have gone down this road as its an essential ingredient of the products makeup. It defines it as too does its packaging.

There's an addage that I draw on from time to time and it holds true - namely, "form follows function" but it has to be remembered they go hand in hand.

The first analogy I would have expected in relation to Wedge and Facebook is "What are the reasons for its popularity". Facebook was certainly a new concept in social media as indeed Wedge is in its realm - You guys have that area covered but and its a big one - Consideration to UI is not wasted and is equally important in Wedges case

2. By now you will have realized that I disagree with you on your latter point - Im feeling much happier that ive got it all off my chest though.
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The Pub / Re: Skin showdown
« on August 24th, 2012, 11:38 PM »
Not meaning to be rude Nao, I havent fallen in love with any of them.

The problem I have is they all have a very basic feel to them which for me is rather disappointing. I was hoping for a more polished assortment of themes that do justice to the Wedge brand as being the NEW kid on the Bloc!...Now theres an idea?

New software, particularly WEDGE should = A new overall look that differentiates significantly from other forums in general.

A fresh bold new look that definitely stands out from the rest. Something that truely signifies the new era in forum software that Wedge is attempting to convey?..Yes?

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Know what....Id like to see both of you taking a month or two off just to re energize the batteries. A project is one thing...healths another!
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We want wedge, we want wedge. We want it and we want it NOW 
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Ah...The price one must pay, for fame!
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on January 30th, 2012, 08:29 PM »
Continue on with the skin and then see what works best. Perhaps inserting what PantsMan said in upper left corner of forum as group display or slideshow for selection purposes?
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on January 25th, 2012, 12:21 AM »
Wedge logo22 's perfect NAO..

Keep everything the same except rotate wedges 90 deg to vert position. 

Kind of like LIVE 627 's concept...Maybe play round with fonts but keep same colors as in logo22 - alter wedges in lives so their not 3D.

 
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Off-topic / Re: Strange problem with RewriteCond
« on January 8th, 2012, 08:28 PM »
Absolute GENIUS! :cool:
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on January 4th, 2012, 03:14 PM »
One in the sidebar (BUSY) - looks real neat NAO. Think your on a winner there.
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on December 29th, 2011, 01:18 PM »
Pixel Mansion NAO - Where ALL logos look great! - Learn something every day. :cool:
Quote from Nao on December 29th, 2011, 11:28 AM
... maybe it could even be bigger...
When you look @ it with subtext it balances out I guess.
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I think anyone could do what we do, with a bit of experience... What we provided is mostly time and commitment.
I'll stick to my own beliefs on that score. "Special people"
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I still don't know what it is...
Let me explain - In my case I have a tendency to favour themes that offer a custom background which gives administrators the ability to tailor their websites with a more personalised feel. For instance whilst working on my site, I discovered it wasnt easy synchronizing the styling of my forum to homepage (particularly with my limited coding knowledge). Using two entirely different programmes with bridge isnt the way to go but it was the only way I could package what I had in mind, together. Coupling the  best blogging programme with best forum @ the time was the goal. Three years in the making and still going strong. The bridging was the obstacle. So yeah custom backdrops are a necessity for folks like moi. Tried the Joomla thing but ended up with WP.

I also wanted my blog or homepage to resemble a traditional webpage instead of the portal thing...I find that sites that tend to use portals all look the same...Wanting your websites look to be unique shouldnt be frowned upon and again not all themes offer this customisation. Its easy for coders to produce something @ will but we're relegated to grovelling. :)
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No I used the standard typeface without vector alteration. How was the latest PNG btw?
- Err... Stretched?
What do you mean stretched..I posted my samples on here without a hitch..maybe a little rough around the edges but in proportion..The PNG I sent you recently should have been pristine & scaleable. What the heck it doesnt really matter, each to their own..
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You sure about that. :lol:
Or at least marry it.
So... Another variation then. The gray/grey one is located just above the we|dge separation, but OTOH obviously it's not as well centered now.

Theyre all good. Just got to take the plunge and settle on one. Lots more important things to worry about....Did I say that! :lol:
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on December 29th, 2011, 12:17 PM »
Quote from live627 on December 29th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Oracle from PM?
Yop.
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The Pub / Re: Logo Madness
« on December 28th, 2011, 11:56 PM »
Quote from Nao on December 28th, 2011, 05:03 PM
How about this...?

Certainly an interesting direction.
Not bad, not bad @ all. A slight reduction of axe OR (crown) perhaps?
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...but it doesn't mean there's no way to convince me that 'something else' is better.
Good that youve got an open mind on things.
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...I just wouldn't have seen the thought put into them.
Yeah imaginations a rare commodity but can be worked on. To be able to visualize a concept and turn it into reality, not unlike what Pete and yourself are doing with Wedge does take some doing. The rewards one can gain from completing a task successfully can be most gratifying. Practice makes perfect eh.
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How long have you been lurking here? Are you someone from sm.org with a different nickname?
Pretty much since you guys diverted...No a community member as I am here. Pixel Mansions a place I frequent among others. Essentially on the scout for some good forum software thats how I ended up here. Im even prone to diversions...Good pastime!
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... . It's like, every day there's a new thing to do that I can't release Wedge without. Add to that the multiple bug reports I've had these last few days... I'd really like to go alpha as soon as possible.
Originally I wanted to have the attachment system use the Aeva Media code, but I don't think this will happen before Final is out (or even later). I've pretty much settled on writing an internal attachment -> media converter anyway. It's not like it's impossible to do, eh.
Talk about not being fully aware of the thought one puts into into artworks etc...You guys are simply godlike in what you do. Takes some pretty special individuals to undertake projects of this magnitude. We're obviously all behind you on that score.
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What's a transparent backdrop...?
A weak moment is what it was..I overlooked the fact that whatever you were going to come up with it would be a core theme and not simply a mod... forget I asked
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I haven't given a look at Eras itself, but on the logo, it looks like the text is skewed/stretched vertically.
No I used the standard typeface without vector alteration. How was the latest PNG btw?

Posted: December 28th, 2011, 03:20 PM
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Okay. I'm in love with my latest attempt. I wanna have its puppies.
You sure about that. :lol: